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Thread: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

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    Costa Rica Avalon Member ulli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?


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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    On the other hand, Martin Luther King dreamed the impossible and like Ghandi, he changed the world for the better. Those who dare to dream the impossible sometimes come out on top. There are always exceptions. If people stopped dreaming for a better world, our world be a very sad and dull place indeed!
    Last edited by Roisin; 26th May 2015 at 13:46.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)

    Well said.

    Trouble is, it's so hard to tell what are illusions until they've been shattered.

    Their shattering is sort of the one thing that reliably confirms them as illusions.

    Until they break apart, they can look so damned plausible.
    Last edited by Curt; 26th May 2015 at 14:55.

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    Switzerland Avalon Member Jimswitz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    I think you make a very good point here,Roisin.
    I don't have much experience with Shamans or gurus,but for a while now ,I've been a little suspicious of ,in particular,Raiki practitioners,who do a couple of weekend courses,call themselves 'Raiki Masters' and charge people large sums of money for 'treatments' and instruction.
    I've been doing Chi-Gong and Tai-Chi for well over 10 years now,and have seen a number of these people go through our club,as the concept of Chi is relevant to all three disciplines.Some of them were obviously well -intentioned sensitive people,who genuinely wanted to help,but I couldn't see why they wanted to charge for their services.Others seemed to me to be only interested in the money.
    We all have to 'make a living',but I think stuff like this should be given free of charge,as I believe that there are other kinds of reward than money.
    I thought I was going to make an insightful observation when I started this post,but,on reading it back,I see that it's really just a 'rant'.
    Never mind....I'll post it anyway.
    Thanks for your contribution to an interesting thread.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Thanks to the internet and all of the information that's on it.... there are a lot of people who are trying to pass themselves off as experts in any given area regardless that all they've done is read up on the topic. Those ones who are good writers or rather... the ones who are good at paraphrasing other people's writings are more able to pull something like that off when marketing their services online. They may fake it until they make it but the authentic practitioner can still spot such cons a mile away regardless how well someone is able to act the part.
    Last edited by Roisin; 26th May 2015 at 13:59.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by Curt (here)
    Quote Posted by ulli (here)

    Well said.

    Trouble is, it's so hard to tell what are illusions until they've been shattered.

    Their shattering is sort of the one thing that reliably cofirms them as illusions.

    Until they break apart, they can look so damned plausible.
    If life’s an illusion anyway, I may as well live in my own illusion.

    Yes, it’s simplistic point of view. But and so...

    I tossed out all I thought I knew about life. What happened was it got smaller on the outside with less stuff to dust off, and it grew bigger in my day to day.

    <3

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by Curt (here)
    Quote Posted by ulli (here)

    Well said.

    Trouble is, it's so hard to tell what are illusions until they've been shattered.

    Their shattering is sort of the one thing that reliably cofirms them as illusions.

    Until they break apart, they can look so damned plausible.
    True.
    Which is why I recommend that the best search starts and ends with self observation.
    Never forgetting that one is a part of the observable greater whole.
    That one ought to question even one's questioning processes.

    The greatest problem with society is that such acts are then labeled as self-centeredness,
    which in reality it is something different when done right.

    What I am talking about is detached, non-judge mental self study, thoughts, emotions, deeds.
    And the best tool for learning to do that is astrology, the legitimate, scientific kind.
    Not the new-age, charlatan variety.
    Thank God anyone can now learn to analyze their own chart.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    I have a story about a spider which I have never seen, but was told by a “psychic”, as she told my mum, that it is bothering me in some kind of multi-dimensional realm. And my mum paid her to get rid of it and then told me everything is going to be fine. Just to be clear I was not possessed or something, there was an exam coming and I was a bit nervous. Since then, I have been constantly thinking about that spider for years, where it has been or how it looks like, I imagine sometimes it lies on the corner of my room staring at me.

    And I just realised that it might be the metaphor for one’s own awareness to construct one’s webs/illusion. I wonder how this relates to “The Lady of Shalott” with her “weaveth steadily”? Anyway, some buddhist school consider the disillusionment can be beneficial for the renunciation, which is to get out of samsara, but together with compassion of course. Like "Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."

    Two archetypes similar to Labyrinth



    Last edited by yuhui; 26th May 2015 at 15:10.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Quote Posted by Curt (here)
    Quote Posted by ulli (here)

    Well said.

    Trouble is, it's so hard to tell what are illusions until they've been shattered.

    Their shattering is sort of the one thing that reliably cofirms them as illusions.

    Until they break apart, they can look so damned plausible.
    True.
    Which is why I recommend that the best search starts and ends with self observation.
    Never forgetting that one is a part of the observable greater whole.
    That one ought to question even one's questioning processes.

    The greatest problem with society is that such acts are then labeled as self-centeredness,
    which in reality it is something different when done right.

    What I am talking about is detached, non-judge mental self study, thoughts, emotions, deeds.
    And the best tool for learning to do that is astrology, the legitimate, scientific kind.
    Not the new-age, charlatan variety.
    Thank God anyone can now learn to analyze their own chart.
    I agree! Astrology is very helpful in terms of self-examination and for this reason, I've been studying it for many years now. I do not call myself an Astrologist though as I do not have any certification in that area but at least I know enough to understand it .... and its truth.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)

    If life’s an illusion anyway, I may as well live in my own illusion.

    Yes, it’s simplistic point of view. But and so...

    I tossed out all I thought I knew about life. What happened was it got smaller on the outside with less stuff to dust off, and it grew bigger in my day to day.

    <3
    I like the idea- and the image you've drawn here- of outside things falling away in favour of an expanding and more meaningful interior life. That's how I experience you, whenever we interact on PA.

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)

    True.
    Which is why I recommend that the best search starts and ends with self observation.
    Never forgetting that one is a part of the observable greater whole.
    That one ought to question even one's questioning processes.
    100% agreed on all counts.

    Quote Posted by yuhui (here)
    I have a story about a spider which I have never seen, but was told by a “psychic”, as she told my mum, that it is bothering me in some kind of multi-dimensional realm. And my mum paid her to get rid of it and then told me everything is going to be fine. Just to be clear I was not possessed or something, there was an exam coming and I was a bit nervous. Since then, I have been constantly thinking about that spider for years, where it has been or how it looks like, I imagine sometimes it lies on the corner of my room staring at me.

    And I just realised that it might be the metaphor for one’s own awareness to construct one’s webs/illusion. I wonder how this relates to “The Lady of Shalott” with her “weaveth steadily”? Anyway, some buddhist school consider the disillusionment can be beneficial for the renunciation, which is to get out of samsara, but together with compassion of course. Like "Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."

    Two archetypes similar to Labyrinth



    Thank you for sharing your story- and for the reference to The Lady of Shalott. I'll take a look at that poem soon.

    Likewise, thanks for the clips you've shared- both great iterations of the metaphor shown in the labyrinth clip.

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    Sweden Avalon Member transiten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the Web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by Roisin (here)
    Quote Posted by Curt (here)
    I've hit a wall, I guess you could say. It was a long time coming.

    Before I belonged to Avalon I worked for a holistic health expo company. I met psychics and healers and shamans- lots of interesting people.
    ...
    ...
    But I feel like I’m at a choice point. Are efforts best spent on escaping the web?

    Or is there spider hunting to be done?
    Could you please back up your claims about those healers wrt them being arrested and so on with legit documentation/links to help us verify the information you are sharing here? thanks
    I have experienced this 1:st hand with extremely traumatic consequences. Read "Spiritual Vampires" The use and misuse of spiritual power by Marty Raphael.

    What others are saying about the book:

    In this day and age of spiritual teachers that come in every conceivable guise, Spiritual Vampires is an important manual on the appropriate use of power-a strategy for healthy spiritual recovery for those who have been subject to religious abuse.

    Marthy bravely names a form of abuse we'd rather believe does not exist.

    Spiritual vampirism is an insidious process. I read your book with great interest having once been a "victim" of a so-called guru. Specifically the chapter on power led me to understand more clearly how my hunger for spiritual answers led me astray.
    Last edited by transiten; 26th May 2015 at 18:06.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the Web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by transiten (here)
    Quote Posted by Roisin (here)
    Quote Posted by Curt (here)
    I've hit a wall, I guess you could say. It was a long time coming.

    Before I belonged to Avalon I worked for a holistic health expo company. I met psychics and healers and shamans- lots of interesting people.
    ...
    ...
    But I feel like I’m at a choice point. Are efforts best spent on escaping the web?

    Or is there spider hunting to be done?
    Could you please back up your claims about those healers wrt them being arrested and so on with legit documentation/links to help us verify the information you are sharing here? thanks
    I have experienced this 1:st hand with extremely traumatic consequences. Read "Spiritual Vampires" The use and misuse of spiritual power by Marty Raphael.

    What others are saying about the book:

    In this day and age of spiritual teachers that come in every conceivable guise, Spiritual Vampires is an important manual on the appropriate use of power-a strategy for healthy spiritual recovery for those who have been subject to religious abuse.

    Marthy bravely names a form of abuse we'd rather believe does not exist.

    Spiritual vampirism is an insidious process. I read your book with great interest having once been a "victim" of a so-called guru. Specifically the chapter on power led me to understand more clearly how my hunger for spiritual answers led me astray.
    Even the bad teachers/gurus are good once exposed they teach us much about ourselves. There are some good spiritual teachers who teach, individuality, self responsibility and the need to move beyond their teachings and influence. I speak from experience.

    Then there are those who want to follow, to be led and want a saviour, they will attract what they want.

    The sincere with attract a sincere teacher, and the insincere............................

    Teachers are a fact of life, we need to learn from masters/teachers who have walked the path ahead of us, in whatever subject we need to learn, from cookery to spirituality. Especially spirituality, in a world where religion is the acceptable norm, its not easy to find.

    Individual sovereignty is a something that is not mentioned often. The most disempowering thing that i was told was, "i made you".

    I think that there are spiritual vampires who believe themselves to be sincere and are unaware of what they do. Its the first rule of sales you have to believe in your product or the customer will see through you, then both parties need to feel satisfied with the transaction. Though sales is more often than not based on selling something that is not essential, or even really needed, then believing a lie is necessary, or even better a partial truth that has the ring of sincerity.

    It all comes down to belief, belief is belief, be it in something genuine or bogus, a believer has been convinced and has convinced themself.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Easier said than done.

    My illusions have been my best teachers, along with my many wrong turns and mistakes. I reserve the right to be wrong. My best teachers are my critics, who have taken the time to point my faults and illusions out for me.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by Jimswitz (here)
    I think you make a very good point here,Roisin.
    I don't have much experience with Shamans or gurus,but for a while now ,I've been a little suspicious of ,in particular,Raiki practitioners,who do a couple of weekend courses,call themselves 'Raiki Masters' and charge people large sums of money for 'treatments' and instruction.
    I've been doing Chi-Gong and Tai-Chi for well over 10 years now,and have seen a number of these people go through our club,as the concept of Chi is relevant to all three disciplines.Some of them were obviously well -intentioned sensitive people,who genuinely wanted to help,but I couldn't see why they wanted to charge for their services.Others seemed to me to be only interested in the money.
    We all have to 'make a living',but I think stuff like this should be given free of charge,as I believe that there are other kinds of reward than money.
    I thought I was going to make an insightful observation when I started this post,but,on reading it back,I see that it's really just a 'rant'.
    Never mind....I'll post it anyway.
    Thanks for your contribution to an interesting thread.
    Tai Chi and Chi-Gong can help a reiki practitioner become better. Rei (universal) ki (life force energy) chi or prana.

    There is a tradition in Japan where reiki originated, that of energy exchange, giving back in equal measure that which has been received or taken. Westerners do not understand this as evidenced by the attitude towards the planet as a resource to be exploited. When Reiki came to the west it was decided that money was to be the medium of exchange because it is one thing in the west that is valued above all else, and because the principles of energy exchange was not understood.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    I started losing my hair when I was 19. It freaked me out. I had $ at the time and decided I'd try just about anything that sounded plausible. I was told at the time that it was all an illusion, that none of the stuff would work. To me, it was only an illusion if it didn't work...and the only way to find out was to try everything. What did I have to lose?

    Life is like that. Its not so much about discovering oneself, its about creating oneself, and trying out different guises, personalities; adopting different theories and modes of thought and disregarding what doesnt work or what is plainly nonsense. Evolution is not always a linear line, however, and occasionally you'll find yourself in an existential rut.

    Curt, I came to this stuff with high hopes. Its truly uncanny how similar alt (fill in the blank) is to the hair loss industry. It sells itself well, preys on the vulnerable, but there's very rarely any kind of payoff or follow thru.

    To your original post:
    -i've never met or spoke to a psychic who was even remotely accurate. And I've spoken to *many* . (A phase. I *had* to know if there was something there)

    -ive never been helped in the slightest by any sort of psychic healer, or by "healing energy". And I've dealt with many "healers".

    -ivs never seen any of our whistleblowers predict stuff with anything resembling accuracy.

    I could go on and on...

    To determine who one is is more of an exercise in shaving off the extra fat than it is creating more meat. Its easier to "discover oneself" by finding out more what doesn't work than what does. Meanwhile you experiment and try out new ways of thinking, new this and new that. For me, this whole field of alt media is another attempt at that. I've shaved off a whole bunch of sh!t from this sculpture of mine, and I've kind of wound up here. And while here, I've shaved off a whole bunch of additional sh!t that I simply can no longer believe in if I'm to consciously consider myself an intelligent person.

    So that's where I'm at. I understand what you're saying - but for me life is always a crossroad. Try to embrace it, would be my advice. Add to your repertoire or release what no longer serves you. My 2 cents

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    additionally,

    i meant to say...to your point..

    i dont know anything about any controlled demolition orchestrated by "them"...ive always felt that the alt media was by its very nature self destructive and not needing of any outside influence to distort it. not to marginalize your opinion - which may be valid - but i think its notions such as these that perpetuate the disorder in alt media...notions that "they" are doing it to "us".

    i think we're doing it to us.

    and my grand theory on why this is, is because...drumroll please...: we're bored.

    yup, boredom. and not too much more. because think about it: alt anything (theory, prognostication, paranormal ability, so forth) is generally all *conceptual*. it has very little real world relevance. predictions never come true; paranormal abilities are spoken of ad nauseum but never demonstrated; people we might have faith in (re Curt's examples in OP) turn out to be fraudulent and so on and so forth. its very frustrating. folks here get so disillusioned by this that they either a) start a constructive thread like this one, or B) just start making sh!t up to create the illusion of action. its happening now actually; the forum rhythms are so predictable - we have a thread about Fulford saying "something might be happening really soon!" this happens every month or so and we all fall for it. no disrespect to anyone in that thread - truly - but nothing is gonna happen. you know it, i know it...so please, just stop.

    but we have to talk about something right? and talk we do ( see: Grip's thread on the merits/demerits of repetition). but as i said earlier, its (alt media, alt anything really) all conceptual. no direct experience for the most part. its like having a beautiful woman wagging her ass in your face all night long but not being allowed to touch it. with this stuff, there's no crossover into reality. it can be a form of intellectual torture. it requires a certain faith, like religion almost.

    and no matter what alt theme youre exploring, you will always run into a road block. there will no longer be anything left to discuss. it simply becomes repetitive. i recall being thrilled and excited exploring these themes early on in my "awakening". it can be accurately said that i was developing a love affair with all things "alt". but once the gloss wore off, it became clear that things would become very stale very quick...like a marriage that no longer works anymore but you still hang around because its comfortable.

    thats why drama threads thrive so well. we all pretend we hate them; someone will inevitably say "come on guys! lets get back to the important stuff!" ...and everyone from here to Timbuktu will line up to "thank" it, but the truth of the matter is, the "important stuff" has grown so f#cking stale and boring that just about anything else will seem entertaining by comparison...so we pretend to take the high road while we secretly enjoy it.

    this, to me, is why the alt media will crumble..or at the very least remain status quo. it will crumble from the inside...simply from boredom and having no other place to go...no other place to explore. its very much at a stand still. disillusionment unchecked (and boredom) cannot, by its very nature, do anything else.

    great post Curt, as usual. i disagree a little but that makes things a little interesting around here, i hope.
    Last edited by Mike; 27th May 2015 at 03:17.

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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    John Lennon once said, “I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?”

    For me, a more accurate sentiment might be, "I entertain everything until it's disproved...." And then personal responsibility and critical discernment take the reins as tireless foot soldiers for the mind to prove or disprove my indulgences. It's an ongoing process and certain judgment is never complete. Some illusions are easy to vet, while other truths (seemingly) require little to no examination. I guess I would tell you with a very high degree of confidence that the earth is round and revolves around the sun every 365.25 days, and that snake oil does not grow hair. But I keep the process of possibility open and churning, no matter on what end of the continuum my discernment ultimately falls. There are many tools available to critical thought, including an understanding of cui bono, but regardless, disillusionment is not an option while the book remains open… there is simply a new page to turn in a developing story. I prefer never to close any book entirely, but rather strive to obtain greater and fuller degrees of resolution to that of which I’m already fully aware, or to that of which I believe I’m fully aware.

    Is the alt media a tool of psyops to advance a controlling agenda? Absolutely. There is a lot going on in the dimensions of reality in which all are all navigating, including an exponential rise of readily assessable information that often resembles white noise. If not waded through and perceived with caution, the noise can easily blind one to any degree of resolution let alone a ballpark resolution of reality. There are also countless agendas that harness the noise to beguile the undiscerning. This is simply a dynamic inherent to the stage of consciousness we are all experiencing. In this vein there are countless agendas, the likes of which we cannot even begin to possibly fathom. Sometimes it's not even about the money.

    But I digress. To answer your question, I say go for slaying the spider! It’s a much greater adventure than fleeing the web….

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  35. Link to Post #38
    Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    I love your two last posts - period.

    Some points from my experience (and I will mix your two posts Mike for this):

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I started losing my hair when I was 19. Sorry for this. It freaked me out. Sorry for this. ....... What did I have to lose? More hair. lolllll
    I will stop teasing you. Hum hum... bits of seriousness (i am in the kidding mood tonight).

    Quote To Curt's original post:
    -i've never met or spoke to a psychic who was even remotely accurate. And I've spoken to *many* . (A phase. I *had* to know if there was something there)

    -ive never been helped in the slightest by any sort of psychic healer, or by "healing energy". And I've dealt with many "healers".

    -ivs never seen any of our whistleblowers predict stuff with anything resembling accuracy.
    Well, in my own Flash experience, I have met clairvoyant who had true clairvoyancy, I have met psychics who were on target, and I have met healers who help the healing processes.

    However, what these all had in common were the following:

    They were clear viewing, or Healing, while doing something else.

    They were not paid for their claivoyancy or their healing abilities as such, they were either naturopahts, acupunctors, homeopaths, medical doctors, physiotherapists, massage therapists, teachers/trainers, even computer geeks, all paid for doing something else that was not officially psychic or officially "healer" like, although they truly were in their actions and results.

    They were not even telling they had such abilities. I would discover they had these over time, them slipping some comments that would make me wonder about it. Some of them may not even have been sure they had these abilities.

    The real ones rarely advertise their abilities and rarely receive money for it. But yes, they use them in their more "regular" work, in which they often have a very good reputation and / or a large clientele.

    And for psychic abilities or healers abilities, we all develop them as we develop ourselves, as we evolve into more actualised beings and more integrated beings.

    So each one fmust ollow its own tracks, because in fact each one of us is the psychic and the healer, albeit sometimes in early developmental stage.

    Quote Mike: but i think its notions such as these that perpetuate the disorder in alt media...notions that "they" are doing it to "us".

    i think we're doing it to us.

    and my grand theory on why this is, is because...drumroll please...: we're bored.............and no matter what alt theme youre exploring, you will always run into a road block. there will no longer be anything left to discuss. it simply becomes repetitive........thats why drama threads thrive so well. we all pretend we hate them; someone will inevitably say "come on guys! lets get back to the important stuff!"
    Yes, our ego needs the thrill, the unfulfilling thrill, because we are either bored, or, stupid, or both. Or yet, stucked in stucked emotions that hampers the brain and heart functionings. Very primitive....

    Ok, now I am escaping to bed!
    Last edited by Flash; 27th May 2015 at 05:02.

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    United States Avalon Member gripreaper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    There are levels of consciousness. You're not going to see the ones above you, so go read about them and see where you fit into the spectrum. The consummate book on the subject, which I have mentioned before with little fanfare, is Jenny Wade's "Changes of Mind"

    http://www.amazon.com/Changes-Mind-C...hanges+of+mind

    The only other book which comes close is the late David Hawkin's book, Power v Force.
    "Lay Down Your Truth and Check Your Weapons
    The Next Voice You Hear Will Be Your OWN"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhS69C1tr0w

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  39. Link to Post #40
    Sweden Avalon Member transiten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Choice Point: Escape the Web? Or Hunt the Spider?

    Quote Posted by loveoflife (here)
    Even the bad teachers/gurus are good once exposed they teach us much about ourselves. There are some good spiritual teachers who teach, individuality, self responsibility and the need to move beyond their teachings and influence. I speak from experience.

    Then there are those who want to follow, to be led and want a saviour, they will attract what they want.

    The sincere with attract a sincere teacher, and the insincere............................
    Noone said there is no good spiritual teachers but naming someone who purpously brainwashes pple as "good" that's a bit too thick I think.

    I think this way of reasoning is "oversimplifying" the issue. In a way I agree since I believe we choose ourselves what lessons to learn before reincarnating but saying that someone who ends up in a sect while seeking help is necessarily "not sincere" is heartless.

    There's this risk of distorting the belief in reincarnation so as to say "Well you choose to be poor in this life so I'm not going to help you".
    Last edited by transiten; 27th May 2015 at 08:17.

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