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Thread: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Very interesting counter arguments. It seems that I have been the sponge watching the video.

    I was looking for a british video i have seen a while ago describing local biological agriculture and animal farming where all the elements of natures, including forests, were uses and interwoven to not only respect but also enhance the environment, from a little producing one to a great producing one, while everything came alive (insects, birds, wild animals and plants) as well. Just cannot find it. But to me, it was the best way to enhance nature instead of deforming it.

    I do think that men can live with nature and make it better. We have to learn and to agree on what to do.


    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    First factual statement:

    5:50 live stock uses 34 trillion gallons of water a year.
    COUNTER: Globally, the agricultural sector consumes about 70% of the planet's accessible freshwater

    6:07: california is Plagued by drought & water usage is a major concern (this follows the above statement so closely that you INFER that they are connected, they are NOT).
    COUNTER: Agriculture is 80 percent of water use in California. Why aren’t farmers being forced to cut back?

    6:20: the average human consumes 1500 gallons a day, half of which is due to meat...
    COUNTER: no sourcing, one can only guess it's lies & made up figures (http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf <-- source page 3, figure #3 ) especially since most beef is "corn fed" and corn is not a major product of California, IE: it's shipped in from elsewhere.

    7:04 55% of water in the US is used by animal agriculture
    COUNTER: No sourcing... REAL FACT: about 70 percent of all the world's freshwater withdrawals go towards irrigation uses (IE: PLANTS... obligatory source: http://www.globalagriculture.org/rep...ics/water.html )

    7:30 more un sourced numbers...


    10:00 Done for now!

    So far this looks like a typical manipulative movie, where you sprinkle enough facts in to make it seem legit then twist them to a given agenda.

    Not all water is equal!

    Quote hen it comes to freshwater most people think of water in rivers and lakes, groundwater and glaciers, the so-called “blue water”. Only part of the rainfall feeds this freshwater supply. The majority of rainfall comes down on the Earth’s surface and either evaporates directly as “non-beneficial evaporation” or, after being used by plants, as “productive transpiration”. This second type of rainwater is termed “green water”. The green water proportion of the total available freshwater supply varies between 55% and 80%, depending on the region of the world, as well as local wood density. The biggest opportunity and challenge for future water management is to store more green water in soil and plants, as well as storing it as blue water.
    even with as wasteful as agriculture is, it's still not "wasting" water, it just uses it, then puts it back into the environment, humans are MUCH more wasteful with our water, we stick it in pipes and ship it off places, some times directly into the ocean..

    I don't have much more time, busy weekend. but after this short time spent watching (and researching what I was told, not just sitting there like a sponge) I've found this movie to be basically what I thought it was, emotional manipulation on topics that need little consideration.

    WATER IS NOT AN ISSUE ON A PLANET THAT IS 2/3 COVERED IN WATER!!!!!!

    (also: global warming is a myth, we live in a cyclic world which we barely understand, the arrogance of us to assume we are the direct cause of ANYTHING on a global scale of this gigantic planet is astounding... next time you think global warming is real go look up how much energy it takes to change a small body of water by 1 degree of temperature, the numbers will astound you)
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    First factual statement:

    5:50 live stock uses 34 trillion gallons of water a year.
    COUNTER: Globally, the agricultural sector consumes about 70% of the planet's accessible freshwater
    Here are the sources for the 'livestock uses 34 trillion gallons of water annually' statement:

    http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org...54/10/909.full
    http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3098/ (read the pdf attached to the summary - although it says livestock only accounts for for 1%, that figure is direct consumption, rather than secondary which forms a large portion of the 31% for irrigation)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    6:07: california is Plagued by drought & water usage is a major concern (this follows the above statement so closely that you INFER that they are connected, they are NOT).
    COUNTER: Agriculture is 80 percent of water use in California. Why aren’t farmers being forced to cut back?
    They are connected:

    http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf



    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    6:20: the average human consumes 1500 gallons a day, half of which is due to meat...
    COUNTER: no sourcing, one can only guess it's lies & made up figures (http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf <-- source page 3, figure #3 ) especially since most beef is "corn fed" and corn is not a major product of California, IE: it's shipped in from elsewhere.
    Correction! The average Californian uses 1500 gallons of water per person per day. Close to Half is associated with meat and dairy products:

    http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    7:04 55% of water in the US is used by animal agriculture
    COUNTER: No sourcing... REAL FACT: about 70 percent of all the world's freshwater withdrawals go towards irrigation uses (IE: PLANTS... obligatory source: http://www.globalagriculture.org/rep...ics/water.html )
    All the statistics are well sourced as I pointed out in this post. That said, here's the source of the '55% of water in the US is used by animal agriculture' claim and it's actually 56%:

    http://www.cspinet.org/EatingGreen/pdf/arguments4.pdf

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    7:30 more un sourced numbers...
    The figure at 7.30 refers to the amount of water needed to produce one burger and it's based on the following…..well…..take your pick…..

    http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org...54/10/909.full
    http://www2.worldwater.org/data20082009/Table19.pdf
    https://www.animalsciencepublication...earch-result=1


    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    10:00 Done for now!
    Read the sources at your leisure if you don't want to waste time with the film although it might take significantly longer. All the links to the cited statistics, as I mentioned before, can be found at Cowspiracy.com/facts.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    The IARC report on the link between processed and red meat and cancer brings up some particularly bad news for the meat industry. Will those products now need a warning label similar to tobacco?

    Quote By now you have heard that on Monday of this week (last week now - ed), the cancer agency of the World Health Organization, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), released a report that definitively stated that processed meat causes cancer, and that red meat, including beef, pork and lamb, probably causes cancer, too.

    Now California is considering adding meat to the cancer-alert warning list. According to the Huffington Post, California's Proposition 65, an initiative approved in 1986, requires that the state keep a list of all chemicals and substances known to increase cancer risks. Producers of such products are required to provide "clear and reasonable" warnings for consumers. They report that in most cases, once an item is added, it is up to the maker to prove to the state that its product is not dangerous enough to warrant a warning label.

    This is HUGE news, and a very bad time to be in the meat business.


    Earlier his month, a study was put forward by the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) dubbing beef as a "climate harmful meat." The study states that cutting the production of energy-intensive meat production will help reduce world's carbon footprint and the result would be much more defined than decreasing or altogether eliminating the use of automobiles and fuels.... Full article here
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    6:20: the average human consumes 1500 gallons a day, half of which is due to meat...
    COUNTER: no sourcing, one can only guess it's lies & made up figures (http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf <-- source page 3, figure #3 ) especially since most beef is "corn fed" and corn is not a major product of California, IE: it's shipped in from elsewhere.
    Correction! The average Californian uses 1500 gallons of water per person per day. Close to Half is associated with meat and dairy products:

    http://pacinst.org/wp-content/upload...ll_report3.pdf
    so because I used human and not Californian the un-sourced data in the report I linked (then you linked below??) is magically reliant and now correctly sourced?

    these numbers and studies are all again, irrelevant as water is not a commodity that we are lacking in; nor will we ever be so the entire point is moot.

    Regional droughts hurt because we live at the limit of water use, because we densely populate due to agriculture (never was an issue when HUNTER/gather was the way we ate; you just couldn't densely pack people in like you can now... and we've found time and time again that this is the TRUE travesty of agriculture.. the destruction of the family/group/tribal relationships we used to rely on).

    if anything Plantspiracy: the sustainability secret should be made.
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    TargeT, you decided to defame pacinst.org and that's your right but you seem to be strangely quiet regarding the other cited sources.
    It might also be worth mentioning that, as you mentioned, all your criticism was based only on the first 10 minutes. The movie deals with many other pertinent topics, again backed up by a plethora of highly respected sources, so please.....watch it, in your own time.....no rush.....and then report back your findings....if you want. You said yourself that that was your plan. As I've stated before, I value your opinion, but only if it is informed, and watching the first 10 minutes of a 90 minute documentary is not informing yourself of the entirety of it's contents even if you view aspects of the first 10 minutes as contentious.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    TargeT, you decided to defame pacinst.org and that's your right but you seem to be strangely quiet regarding the other cited sources.
    It might also be worth mentioning that, as you mentioned, all your criticism was based only on the first 10 minutes. The movie deals with many other pertinent topics, again backed up by a plethora of highly respected sources, so please.....watch it, in your own time.....no rush.....and then report back your findings....if you want. You said yourself that that was your plan. As I've stated before, I value your opinion, but only if it is informed, and watching the first 10 minutes of a 90 minute documentary is not informing yourself of the entirety of it's contents even if you view aspects of the first 10 minutes as contentious.

    it was 10 min of video with about 40 min of reading source material and references in which I found quite a few numbers just "sitting" there with no backing study referenced (which I'm ok with, because that just causes more reading).

    If someone were to just watch this video and take it at face value with out fact checking I don't think they are doing themselves a service... reviewing a movie like this takes easily 10x longer than just "watching" it. so far I'm not overly impressed, the data is loosely correlated to studies and a few key assumptions are slipped in there; and besides the entire first 10 min was the pot calling the kettle black (as plant agriculture is far worse in all areas that they mentioned).

    I will continue to work through it, lots on me plate right now and with out the ability to watch/listen at work (where I mostly post here from, I'm an excellent multi-tasker and even better process-automater) i'm a bit limited.

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    I do think that men can live with nature and make it better. We have to learn and to agree on what to do.
    Here's where it gets funny, modern aggriculture (and even all the way back to the first farm that could feed more than a village) has SEPARATED us from nature (which is why all the destruction happens, out of sight out of mind) by allowing us to condense into cities which never would have been supportable on the scale they are at now with sustainable farming practices.

    we absolutely can live harmoniously on this planet, we just need to re move all the dis-connects... food AND water are HUGELY disconnected from modern life; and we care not where they come from (which is terribly damaging in large scale).
    Last edited by TargeT; 4th November 2015 at 22:14.
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    I think the point they are making is that much of the plant agriculture is there to feed livestock resulting in a highly inefficient way to 'grow' food. A method we simply don't have the ongoing resources for.

    Personally I think, vegans or no vegans, push will come to shove. 7 billion people (and growing) living harmoniously whilst the vast majority is eating meat is, I believe, not sustainable and just somehow 'removing disconnects' is easier said than done. Folk can't remove the disconnect between themselves and the slaughter house and until they can your vision ain't happening.
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    I think the point they are making is that much of the plant agriculture is there to feed livestock resulting in a highly inefficient way to 'grow' food. A method we simply don't have the ongoing resources for.

    Personally I think, vegans or no vegans, push will come to shove. 7 billion people (and growing) living harmoniously whilst the vast majority is eating meat is, I believe, not sustainable and just somehow 'removing disconnects' is easier said than done. Folk can't remove the disconnect between themselves and the slaughter house and until they can your vision ain't happening.
    well that is a fun debate also, the numbers do not support your suppositions, I think the planet could easily support 15-18 billion, but will probably level off at 11-12 billion (assuming that everyone is allowed to reach the affluent levels of the western world, which will be VERY easily approachable with modern technology).

    Quote 3% of land surface is covered by urban areas according to GRUMP datasets combined with satellite images [1]. Satellite images helped land-use researchers at UW-Madison's Center for Sustainability and Global Environment to conclude that over 40% of earth's land is given over to agriculture [2]. So considering human inhabited land to be a combination of agricultural and urban areas, we have around 43% of earth's land surface covered by humans (There might be overlapping of agricultural and urban areas in the assumption because of inland agriculture, but it should be safe to assume it to be well below 3% since not many countries practice intensive farming and aome urban areas were left dim in the satellite image)
    This is with our TERRIBLE agricultural practices that are currently used.

    Mix in permaculture & vertical farming and those numbers show you how little we actually NEED to take up. 3% of the globe is populated by urban areas.

    What happens when we figure out how to use the oceans (its already happening to some extent via island creation, though this is another terrible solution IMO).

    So really, there's nothing to fear here, we will get our **** strait, if only because it's more eco-viable (economically, ecologically etc..)... I really don't see a fearful future, it's looking pretty damn bright to me
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Very synchronous

    Amount of grains and soya grown globally for animal feed is 3kg per human per week

    Strange that...
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    I'm sorry T, but I don't share your optimism. While the numbers you mention may be good in theory, practice is an entirely different beast. I noticed you didn't address my point about modern society's disconnect with the slaughter house - surely an aspect of reconnecting with their food and water, right? Meat is obviously a key aspect of the human diet as it stands at the moment, and yet most of the people I am in conversation with openly admit if that disconnect was 'reconnected', they'd be vegan before evening. So how is this reconnection between modern society and it's food going to work? As I see it, animal agriculture has only managed to survive because of the very slick efforts to maintain the disconnect. Advertising the truth of such an industry will only lead to its demise - which is fine by me
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Better agricultural agriculture and animal farming





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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Veganic farming was mentioned in Cowspiracy. It's essentailly identical to the permaculture models already laid out except that animals are removed from the picture. But what about the manure I hear you cry? Well, an interesting aspect of this is the fact that human based manure or humanure as it has become termed can be used safely to feed crops if it is sourced from well....herbivorous humans :

    Quote ....Soil fertility is maintained by the use of green manures, cover crops, green wastes, composted vegetable matter, and minerals. Some vegan gardeners may supplement this with human urine from vegans (which provides nitrogen) and 'humanure' from vegans, produced from compost toilets.[2] Generally only waste from vegans is used because of the expert recommendation that the risks associated with using composted waste are acceptable only if the waste is from animals or humans having a largely herbivorous diet.[12]

    Veganic gardeners may prepare soil for cultivation using the same method used by conventional and organic gardeners of breaking up the soil with hand tools and power tools and allowing the weeds to decompose.....
    My vision encompasses one where, as vegans, our own waste will actually feed our crops rather than being 'managed' by sewage works. Yeah, I know, I'm talking sh!t again
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    I really like this


    Attachment 31722

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Meat is obviously a key aspect of the human diet as it stands at the moment, and yet most of the people I am in conversation with openly admit if that disconnect was 'reconnected', they'd be vegan before evening.
    Meat and agriculture will continue to disconnect from "old methods" in my vision (though surely a few will still hang on, but they will be treated as places to visit, tourist attractions almost). Meat will be grown via gene-therapy methods I see a "steak" being grown in the packaging it will eventually be sold in, it's just too inefficient otherwise; same with veggies, we will carefully control micro nutrients via "solutions" in vertical growing towers (or once we get good enough at solar energy conversion, indoor or underground vertical systems with artificial full spectrum light).

    Once labor becomes a non issue (and we are 10 years or a LOT less from that) and buildings build themselves and the need for 100% employment (or the fantasy of it) is finally let go (again, ALL of this is with in 20-25 years baring some epic disaster) we will have almost nothing todo but look at the planet and take care of it, our distractions will be vastly different.. By then I think we will have become a type2 civilization (see the EM drive Nasa is testing? there ya go, that's us hitting on an enormous step into deep space).

    This are exponentially changing right now, we are on the upward curve of the "hockey-stick"... Technology will change in ways that make what we have now look archaic in just 5 years from now (see my thread on tech, some of the inventions on the first page (a year ago) have already been set aside as we have leapfrogged to newer better ones).

    The aggregate of all this information paints a very interesting trend; and not at all dark and spooky.

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    our own waste will actually feed our crops rather than being 'managed' by sewage works. Yeah, I know, I'm talking sh!t again
    I sort of do this now with a septic system and shallow rooted fruit bearing trees, its very doable. My gardens get pig/chicken/horse/sheep manure (moderation is key in everything, even fertilizer nitrate levels vary greatly from animal to animal).
    Last edited by TargeT; 5th November 2015 at 00:53.
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote ...except that animals are removed from the picture.
    Please, tell us - in detail - where all the existing domestic animals would go and what would happen to them?
    "There is nothing in a caterpillar that tells you it's going to be a butterfly." R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by StandingWave (here)
    Quote ...except that animals are removed from the picture.
    Please, tell us - in detail - where all the existing domestic animals would go and what would happen to them?
    Livestock are bred according to demand. If demand ceased, they wouldn't be bred any more and so would cease to exist in a matter of one generation/season.
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by StandingWave (here)
    Quote ...except that animals are removed from the picture.
    Please, tell us - in detail - where all the existing domestic animals would go and what would happen to them?
    Livestock are bred according to demand. If demand ceased, they wouldn't be bred any more and so would cease to exist in a matter of one generation/season.
    And domestic is a large umbrella, what about "pets"?
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Out of interest, surely it's correct to say the humans consume far more meat than they should do. The meat that's "grown" for humans to consume is almost entirely reared for profit on a truly gigantic scale.
    Like it says in the movie, all that animal urine has to go somewhere.
    Is there truth in the estuary dead zones caused by mass cow pee draining into them as well as human waste.

    Should we not all be on the same page that growing so much beef is not in anyone's interest but the corporations?

    I am not a veggie or vegan and I enjoy meat, because I was brought up that way. Now I'm older and have the ability to see things for what they are I actually want to change my eating habits, I want my children to be healthy and live in a world that's not raped for profit.
    Born of frustration.

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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Regarding meat, TargeT's comment about it being grown in the pack it gets sold in, or at least the lab is, for the benefit of those not aware, already reality and, whilst not something I'd personally be interested in consuming, theoretically represents a viable ethical solution as well as an environmental one.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    ....what about "pets"?
    From my perspective and the perspective of animal rights principles, the concept of pets would be phased out. In the meantime, we have a beautiful west Siberian Laika which we acquired long before I became aware of animal rights and how it deals with the notion of pets. A.R precepts take the line that ownership of another animal is, ethically problematic, in similar ways to slavery, not because they are worked, but because they don't have the right to self determination. However, with animal rights very unlikely being part of our (edit - collective) way of life for the foreseeable future, we will get another dog, but it will be a rescue dog and a neutered one at that.
    Last edited by Akasha; 5th November 2015 at 17:23.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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