Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret (2014)

[TargeT]

I'm an avid animal welfare activist.. I've rescued close to 300 animals since I started my horse rescue.

How ever, I am a speciesist; of i were in a burning building and there was a puppy and a human child & I only could save one it would be the human every time.

I think animal "rights" is a ridiculous concept that can never realistically be realized. The two mentalities are very close, yet drastically different.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)
I'm an avid animal welfare activist.. I've rescued close to 300 animals since I started my horse rescue.

How ever, I am a speciesist; of i were in a burning building and there was a puppy and a human child & I only could save one it would be the human every time.

I think animal "rights" is a ridiculous concept that can never realistically be realized. The two mentalities are very close, yet drastically different.

I'm not speciesist but I would still save the child too. To save the dog would represent a bias towards canines, not an act of non-speciesism. The scenario's a classic catch 22 isn't it?

I know you are a welfarist and given the social climate we live in, that is highly commendable and I admire the work you continue to do in that regard. But a world where animals had rights would mean they wouldn't necessarily need welfare because they wouldn't have been exploited to such a point that they needed rescuing in the first place. That's where animal rights advocates are trying to get to, rather than getting bovines the vote and such, which is what the term suggests on the face of it.

Rights are a man-made concept which, when you think about it, is pretty crazy in its own right and can and has on many occasion been revoked at various points in history to varying degrees, indicating that it is only as real as the power structure will allow.

I also shared your view on the subject before I became vegan. Even as a vegetarian, I didn't see how such ideas could make sense, but if you humour me and imagine a world with a 100% vegan population and the fruits there-of i.e. no livestock or animals for vivisection, then all you are left with is the wild animals which are already permitted self-determination in as much as humanity currently allows. In essence, that is what animal rights is driving at. Idealistic? Absolutely. Wrong? personally, I don't think so.

[StandingWave]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by StandingWave (here)

...except that animals are removed from the picture.

Please, tell us - in detail - where all the existing domestic animals would go and what would happen to them?

Livestock are bred according to demand. If demand ceased, they wouldn't be bred any more and so would cease to exist in a matter of one generation/season.

I find this a glib, fatuous response to an honest and serious question. Detail is what I expected.

From this thread and your specific posts I am led to believe that vegan is a lifestyle that should be followed by all of humanity - for ethical, spiritual and health reasons. Right? Impressive. OK, I'm prepared to entertain going there.

Perhaps I should explain my situation.

Right now I am living an almost self-sufficient life with my partner of 15 years on 4.5 hectares of forest gardens, kitchen garden of hugelbeds arranged around and fed by a bio-digester's effluent and pastures supporting grazing flocks. I have 16 sheep, 30 chickens, 4 ducks, about 100 rabbits 4 cats and a dog. If I am to become vegan then this situation needs to be changed. Please inform me - in detail - how to get to Vegan from here. What do I do with these animals?

Before you do could you also explain your own situation - where you live, how you come by three meals a day, whether you have any health issues and if you use pharma-medications?

I am 55, in reasonable health and rapidly healing from various problems incurred from a disconnected life lived largely in cities previously, I'm not taking any medication. I live off-grid, far from any cities, most of my food comes from my own property, gardens and animals. My animals are in good health, content, not afraid of me nor the dog or cats. When I 'harvest' I do it as quickly, cleanly and humanely as possible. I do not rely on any middleman for my existence.

Please dont restrain yourself in the detail department.

[Akasha]

Posted by StandingWave (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by StandingWave (here)

...except that animals are removed from the picture.

Please, tell us - in detail - where all the existing domestic animals would go and what would happen to them?

Livestock are bred according to demand. If demand ceased, they wouldn't be bred any more and so would cease to exist in a matter of one generation/season.

I find this a glib, fatuous response to an honest and serious question. Detail is what I expected.

From this thread and your specific posts I am led to believe that vegan is a lifestyle that should be followed by all of humanity - for ethical, spiritual and health reasons. Right? Impressive. OK, I'm prepared to entertain going there.

Perhaps I should explain my situation.

Right now I am living an almost self-sufficient life with my partner of 15 years on 4.5 hectares of forest gardens, kitchen garden of hugelbeds arranged around and fed by a bio-digester's effluent and pastures supporting grazing flocks. I have 16 sheep, 30 chickens, 4 ducks, about 100 rabbits 4 cats and a dog. If I am to become vegan then this situation needs to be changed. Please inform me - in detail - how to get to Vegan from here. What do I do with these animals?

Before you do could you also explain your own situation - where you live, how you come by three meals a day, whether you have any health issues and if you use pharma-medications?

I am 55, in reasonable health and rapidly healing from various problems incurred from a disconnected life lived largely in cities previously, I'm not taking any medication. I live off-grid, far from any cities, most of my food comes from my own property, gardens and animals. My animals are in good health, content, not afraid of me nor the dog or cats. When I 'harvest' I do it as quickly, cleanly and humanely as possible. I do not rely on any middleman for my existence.

Please dont restrain yourself in the detail department.

I love the 'harvest' euphemism. Why do you feel the need to disguise such actions with wordplay?

I'm not sure why you need advice from me when you are clearly capable of doing research when sufficiently motivated.
4.5 hectares would, climate allowing, certainly be more than sufficient for 2 people to grow their own food if on a plant-based diet. If you are serious about making such a transition, I would happily get involved in doing your homework for you, but from the tone of your post, I feel you have no intention of making such a change but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

Regarding what to do with the 155 animals in your care? Let them live out their lives. You shouldered that burden when you acquired them and they remain your responsibility.

About me: I live with my partner in Hungary on the outskirts of a town of about 100 000. We grow as much as we can in our small garden (10m x 10m approx') which amounts to 30% of our food in a good year. The rest comes from mostly locally grown fruit, veg', nuts, seeds and legumes. I take an anti-convulsant for (hereditary) epilepsy.

I'm sorry you found my reply to your post 'glib and fatuous'. Your first reply was glib enough not to indicate the context of your own situation, so I (would say I quite rightly) assumed you were responding generally about a hypothetical scenario rather than a real and personal one.

[TargeT]

Posted by Akasha (here)

I love the 'harvest' euphemism. Why do you feel the need to disguise such actions with wordplay?

Are you really that far into cognitive dissonance?

Vegans choose to harvest plants, Omnivores harvest plants and animals, no matter what is being harvested for consumption it follows the same basic tenants: Before the harvest it is alive, afterwards it is not..... now the supposed Vegan moral high ground (which is really quite funny, the pot calling the kettle black etc..) is not really so high, in fact it's rather silly.

btw:

verb (used with object)
6.
to gather (a crop or the like); reap.
7.
to gather the crop from:
to harvest the fields.
8.
to gain, win, acquire, or use (a prize, product, or result of any past act, process, plan, etc.).
9.
to catch, take, or remove for use:
Fishermen harvested hundreds of salmon from the river.

You see we both harvest, vegans just seem to choose some arbitrary distinction on life and assume your better because of it.

Posted by Akasha (here)
Regarding what to do with the 155 animals in your care? Let them live out their lives. You shouldered that burden when you acquired them and they remain your responsibility.

We have formed a symbiotic relationship with many animals and plants, I don't think we should violate it as they have come to depend on us for our survival.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

I love the 'harvest' euphemism. Why do you feel the need to disguise such actions with wordplay?

Are you really that far into cognitive dissonance?

Vegans choose to harvest plants, Omnivores harvest plants and animals, no matter what is being harvested for consumption it follows the same basic tenants: Before the harvest it is alive, afterwards it is not..... now the supposed Vegan moral high ground (which is really quite funny, the pot calling the kettle black etc..) is not really so high, in fact it's rather silly.

"Jeez."

btw:

verb (used with object)
6.
to gather (a crop or the like); reap.
7.
to gather the crop from:
to harvest the fields.
8.
to gain, win, acquire, or use (a prize, product, or result of any past act, process, plan, etc.).
9.
to catch, take, or remove for use:
Fishermen harvested hundreds of salmon from the river.

You see we both harvest, vegans just seem to choose some arbitrary distinction on life and assume your better because of it.

"Jeez."

Posted by Akasha (here)
Regarding what to do with the 155 animals in your care? Let them live out their lives. You shouldered that burden when you acquired them and they remain your responsibility.

We have formed a symbiotic relationship with many animals and plants, I don't think we should violate it as they have come to depend on us for our survival.

Yes, sometimes all one can say ( or choose to say ) is, "Jeez."

[lake]

Its a fcuker isn't it .... responsibility. What to say when you know your doing harm?

Now....how much 'live stock' is slaughtered each year for human consumption?

Every year in the UK approximately 2.6 million cattle, 10 million pigs, 14.5 million sheep and lambs, 80 million fish and 950 million birds are slaughtered for human consumption.

Lets take a 'political' view for chickens....

How are poultry slaughtered?

Large scale processing plants slaughter poultry using electrical water baths or gas. For electrical waterbath stunning, poultry are unloaded from their transport containers and hung by both legs onto a moving shackle line, which conveys them to the waterbath. The birds' heads swing into the electrified water in the bath and a stunning current passes from their head, through their body, to their feet in the shackles. This causes the bird to become unconscious. The electrical parameters of the waterbath can be set to either stun the birds or stun and kill them. To ensure all birds die, they are then bled at the neck as soon as possible after they exit the waterbath. For gas killing, poultry are conveyed through a machine which maintains an atmosphere containing proportions of gases that cause the bird to become unconscious and then die. Some machines convey the birds through the gas in their transport containers so there is minimal handling; others unload the birds prior to entry to the controlled atmosphere machine. Commercial smallholders who slaughter poultry on-farm use different methods

http://www.hsa.org.uk/faqs/general#n1

If you read through the above linked page....and are not saddened by 'human interaction' then I suggest a period of 'self reflection'.

Think ....all the supposed 'meat'.......where is the blood going?
The video in this thread explains what some of you are and your part in this process.......

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...rtising-tricks

I recommend that some of you consider your own nature?

I would say 'with love'....but I feel a shortening of 'love' for that which some of you are. If another concept of awareness descends upon this place....then you may find that you are the submissive species and then maybe regarded as 'FOOD'!!!!!!

Please think

[TargeT]

Posted by lake (here)
I would say 'with love'....but I feel a shortening of 'love' for that which some of you are. If another concept of awareness descends upon this place....then you may find that you are the submissive species and then maybe regarded as 'FOOD'!!!!!!

Please think

Right, sort of like plants before a human, right?

Humans exploit their environment, we always have; we are not equipped to live in the environments we live in, so we exploit the resources of that environment so we can, we are not equipped to even feed our selves, so we create tools to do so, or eat other lifeforms. Plants are the only life form that doesn't always fall under that same paradigm; they are the most peaceful and sustaining mostly non-aggressive living things we know of, and we exploit the CRAP outta them!

I'm still a bit lost on the distinction of life, if it's cute AND mobile its ok, but otherwise kill it and eat it? it seems like there is such heavy hypocrisy at the very core of the movement... even this very thread is rife with hypocrisy, claiming that animal based agriculture wastes water (when plant aggro is far worse) claiming that animals pollute (when plant based agro is far worse with pesticides and direct injection of nitrogen into the soil) and of course the "don't kill living things, except plants, because; well they are living, but we gotta eat something right?).

If veganism meant "eating Prana" or some other notion I'd see it as much more reasonable, but ending life is ending life (unless you are going to really change the definition of life to fit your needs, or just ignore it).

why not just live in harmony with everything around you and realize it's all part of a system that depends on the interactions between species, between everything really? Why not take nature as a guide on how to live (and Nature is BRUTAL). Why ignore all these things and then start to judge your fellow humans for not taking a mental leap off that cliff of emotional manipulation and "strange ideas"?

Positive cannot exist with out negative, they define each other, this existence is all about the 0 balanced with the 1 (and the trinity that comes from that interaction).

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

I love the 'harvest' euphemism. Why do you feel the need to disguise such actions with wordplay?

Are you really that far into cognitive dissonance?

Vegans choose to harvest plants, Omnivores harvest plants and animals, no matter what is being harvested for consumption it follows the same basic tenants: Before the harvest it is alive, afterwards it is not..... now the supposed Vegan moral high ground (which is really quite funny, the pot calling the kettle black etc..) is not really so high, in fact it's rather silly.

btw:

verb (used with object)
6.
to gather (a crop or the like); reap.
7.
to gather the crop from:
to harvest the fields.
8.
to gain, win, acquire, or use (a prize, product, or result of any past act, process, plan, etc.).
9.
to catch, take, or remove for use:
Fishermen harvested hundreds of salmon from the river.

You see we both harvest, vegans just seem to choose some arbitrary distinction on life and assume your better because of it.

Posted by Akasha (here)
Regarding what to do with the 155 animals in your care? Let them live out their lives. You shouldered that burden when you acquired them and they remain your responsibility.

We have formed a symbiotic relationship with many animals and plants, I don't think we should violate it as they have come to depend on us for our survival.

Hi TargeT. I've just responded to your post but I posted it here on the All Things Vegan thread so as not go off the original topic of Cowspiracy.

[StandingWave]

Posted by Akasha (here)
I love the 'harvest' euphemism. Why do you feel the need to disguise such actions with wordplay?

I'm not sure why you need advice from me when you are clearly capable of doing research when sufficiently motivated.
4.5 hectares would, climate allowing, certainly be more than sufficient for 2 people to grow their own food if on a plant-based diet. If you are serious about making such a transition, I would happily get involved in doing your homework for you, but from the tone of your post, I feel you have no intention of making such a change but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

Regarding what to do with the 155 animals in your care? Let them live out their lives. You shouldered that burden when you acquired them and they remain your responsibility.

About me: I live with my partner in Hungary on the outskirts of a town of about 100 000. We grow as much as we can in our small garden (10m x 10m approx') which amounts to 30% of our food in a good year. The rest comes from mostly locally grown fruit, veg', nuts, seeds and legumes. I take an anti-convulsant for (hereditary) epilepsy.

I'm sorry you found my reply to your post 'glib and fatuous'. Your first reply was glib enough not to indicate the context of your own situation, so I (would say I quite rightly) assumed you were responding generally about a hypothetical scenario rather than a real and personal one.

My initial reaction was to your suggestion that animals can be removed from the picture and did not require a detailing of my situation. When you say that this property 'would, climate allowing, certainly be more than sufficient for 2 people to grow their own food if on a plant-based diet' it is with a conviction based in what experience?

Further you admit to
- relying on a supply chain that is not vegan for more than 70% of your food
- you are using a pharmaceutical that was probably tested on animals at some stage or at least the company that provides it almost certainly does that with other products in their range.
- you live in a suburb of a town and probably water your plants with a piped supply.
- you either work to earn money or accept social support to pay for the life support that you cannot provide for yourself.

Do you use fertilizers or pesticides on your garden?
Do you drive a car or use any petrol driven vehicle?
Most of the things in your home come from a manufacturing industry, is it exclusively vegan?

You claim to be vegan but the degree to which you rely on others, most probably consuming meat, highlights the lie in that claim.

From the dictionary on my Mac:

hypocrisy |hiˈpäkrisē|
noun ( pl. -sies)
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French ypocrisie, via ecclesiastical Latin, from Greek hupokrisis ‘acting of a theatrical part,’ from hupokrinesthai ‘play a part, pretend,’ from hupo ‘under’ + krinein ‘decide, judge.’

Again, I was hoping for a bit more detail than 'let them live out their lives' on the issue of these animals who don't cease to propogate when I decide to become vegan. You proclaim that 100% of humanity ought to be vegan so the onus is on you to provide a strategy to achieve that but when pressed for details you avoid the issue. Then you declare that all these animals should just 'cease to exist' - you actually wish them into extinction! - thus displaying a stunning lack of compassion which is supposedly the core value motivating a vegan!

Obviously you really haven't a clue what you're talking about yet you feel that you need to teach the world how to live! Astounding.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I totally abhor the way in which both animals and plants are treated in industrial agriculture. Imho if you consume then you ought to provide for yourself and not let others do your dirty work for you. That is why I have chosen to become self-sufficient as fast as possible.

Vegans seem to love to wallow in an orgy of graphic exposure to the most abusive treatment of animals they can find and do their best to shove it under everyones noses in an effort to emotionally manipulate others into accepting their disconnected conceptual theories.

I absolutely agree that abuse of animals should be eradicated and becoming self-sufficient is the only way I know to make sure that my food supply is not tainted by repulsive, ethically unsound actions motivated by a greed for maximum profit.

All my life I have been passionately motivated to find the truth about virtually everything, including - perhaps especially - about diet and health. That is why I was motivated to join this forum. I have trieda number of diets in an effort to find the truth. My experience through the process of getting off the grid and achieving the robust good health it requires has made it clear to me that 'the system' as it stands is monstrously destructive and based on that realisation I have done everything in my power to distance myself from it to the extent that I have walked away from almost every convenience and many relationships with both friends and family whose moral flexibility I find repugnant.

Becoming self-sufficient requires excellent health and strength to take on the required tasks. My partner and I run this domain with only the two of us without any paid assistance. We started out as vegetarians, tried an all raw diet but found that neither of these options was able to keep us fit and strong enough to do what is relentlessly necessary when living on the land. What became rapidly clear is that in order to succeed at this endeavour one needs to know exactly what one should eat as that defines where one's energies will be focussed. Funnily enough it was an ex-vegan (Robb Wolf) that gave us the pointers toward a diet that works. Prof. Ray Peat was the other central influence in understanding the requirements of the human physiology and his extensive grasp of nutrition and physiology supported the contentions of people like Robb Wolf and CJ Hunt who made the documentary 'The Perfect Human Diet'.

Only when we began to exclude processed foods, grains, legumes, nuts and seeds from our diet and to rely exclusively on saturated fat and protein from animals augmented with a small portion of root veg, squashes, onions, garlic, salt and spices did we finally begin to regain our health.

Now we are rejuvenating and do not lack for strength or endurance anymore. Nor do we get sick. We have zero reliance on supplements or medications anymore. I used to suffer terribly from mucous and inflammation issues, sore joints, headaches, lassitude, depression, bloating, unsettled digestion - all of that is a dim memory now. I discovered that I had in fact been abusing the nearest animal to me all those years: my own body! And I was doing it as a result of formulating and forcing a conceptual framework that had no bearing in any physiological reality.

In the beginning of our effort toward independance of the money system, being vegetarian, we noticed the lack of vitality in our soils that no amount of mulching would change, we were overun by rodents, snakes and spiders. In those days we were composting our own excrement and using it as a fertilizer, just as you suggested earlier. There were mice roaming in the house and breaking into every imaginable container! Our fruit trees had the bark eaten off, all the fruit was consumed by mice before our very eyes! When we introduced a variety of animals to the equation the situation immediately improved. The cats quickly cleaned up the rodent and snake problem, the dog ensured that our poultry was no longer predated by wild cats and genets and our sheep by jackals and she also wards the birds out of the fruit trees. The dog has also stopped the occasional pilfering we were experiencing from the local children. The sheep keep the grass short so we no longer have to cut firebreaks by hand using noisy, pollutive brush-cutters. I was also experiencing spinal problems from the vibrations that the brush cutters impart to one's frame, not to mention inhaling the toxic exhaust gasses and excessive noise they generate. The sheep have proven the folklore claiming they have 'golden hooves' as they regenerate and fertilise the pastures while they graze and this was spectacularly noticeable in the first year they were here. Bill Mollison - the originator of permaculture - would laugh outright at the notion of permaculture without animals.

It would be good if a a self-sufficient vegan could step forward and take up this discussion. Do they exist? I've never yet met one that doesn't lean heavily on the existing system for basic foodstuffs and supplements to survive. This imho makes all vegans who are not self-sufficient meat-eaters by proxy and hypocritical to boot.

Thanks, TartgeT for clearing that bit up about harvesting - that was my express intention in using that word.

“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. And unselfishness is letting other people's lives alone, not interfering with them. Selfishness always aims at creating around it an absolute uniformity of type. Unselfishness recognizes infinite variety of type as a delightful thing, accepts it, acquiesces in it, enjoys it. It is not selfish to think for oneself. A man who does not think for himself does not think at all. It is grossly selfish to require of one's neighbor that he should think in the same way, and hold the same opinions. Why should he? If he can think, he will probably think differently. If he cannot think, it is monstrous to require thought of any kind from him. A red rose is not selfish because it wants to be a red rose. It would be horribly selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red and roses.” -- Oscar Wilde

I rest my case with this missive.
Good luck with your efforts to get humanity 100% vegan. Heaven help all those domestic animals when you get your program going.

[Akasha]

Hi StandingWave and thanks for the valuable feedback. I'm certainly not perfect and I agree with and confirm much of what you say. For example:

the drug I take was no doubt at some point tested on animals and it's likely that the company which makes it is still continuing such practices.

The point about relying on a non-vegan food-supply chain is also correct. No doubt most if not all the growers I buy my food from consume meat, dairy and eggs.

Regarding, watering our plants with a piped supply, no. We pump our water up from below ground for such purposes and do our own composting although so far we haven't needed to experiment with humanure, the Hungarian soil being sufficiently fertile, at least up until now.

I also don't drive, instead cycling everywhere except when going long distances when I will use public transport.

Regarding manufactured things being exclusively vegan, I would say that everything purchased so far since changing to a vegan diet is, to the best of my knowledge, vegan, although I will admit to being frequently disappointed to discover that various items which I assumed to be vegan, were in fact not, although in light of such discoveries I stopped buying them.

My suggestion that your land would be more than sufficient to support you both is based on the idea that you have 45 times the area we have (45 000 square meters instead of 100 square meters) and how much we can grow in that modest area.

Regarding details for the "let them live out their lives" comment, I'd say neuter the ones with the opportunity to propagate and then let them live out their lives. Personally, given the choice of a vasectomy and a full life or no vasectomy and a slit throat while in my prime, I know what I'd choose and if and when they started suffering due to old age, euthanasia would, imho, be a compassionate method for ending their life.
The only thing I "wish into extinction" is the exploitation and / or suffering of animals. If certain livestock ultimately become extinct, due to lack of demand, so be it - they were bred into existence in the first place, but I'm not advocating for their immediate destruction. I'm simply saying that if less people buy animal products, less animals will be bred until ultimately it will cease to be financially viable for the mechanism to continue and that from a compassionate perspective, we'd do well to be heading in that direction.

The definition of veganism according to the Vegan Society is as follows:

A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

I admit that the phrase "as far as is possible and practicable" is a considerable get-out clause - an open-ended book if you will. However, as more people are actively adopting the principles of veganism, the more the markets are currently changing to accommodate such demand. This will obviously permeate beyond the products themselves and into the supporting products, tools, and infrastructure which are not currently vegan as awareness of such practices becomes apparent.
I appreciate that this will not have much relevance to you since you are seeking to separate yourself from the system, but for the vast majority, that's simply not possible, and if they did all make the decision to follow you, where would they all go?

Regarding "Do self-sufficient vegans exist"? A very good question. On googling the phrase, the following links stood out initially:

http://spiralseed.co.uk/

http://veganslivingofftheland.blogspot.hu/

....and have, along with your challenges to think more deeply about my own lifestyle, inspired me to work harder within my current resources to transition to a lifestyle closer to yours but without the use of animals and their secretions / by-products.

BTW since this thread is about Cowspiracy, have you watched it? If so what were your thoughts on it?

[Akasha]

Will Tuttle, one of the contributors to Cowspiracy was recently interviewed by Santa Fe Reporter. Here's what he had to say:

Meat Myths: Vegan famous for 'Cowspiracy' visits SF with his gospel of plant-based diets



Is meat really good? Will Tuttle isn’t talking about the taste of bacon when he poses this question. He’s operating in the realm of spiritual and philosophical justifications.

Tuttle, the author of The World Peace Diet, explores the ideas this Sunday as a guest of the Santa Fe Veg group. While that may sound like preaching to the choir, he says it’s for a wider audience.

Tuttle’s arrival marks a big moment for the local vegan movement, a moment which is preceded by growing interest in the group, the development of greater access to locally grown organic produce and the relatively recent openings of several exclusively vegan restaurants.

Veganism in New Mexico does present certain conflicts. How could anyone give up the cultural staple of huevos rancheros? More significantly, how is veganism accessible to the rural poor, whose lifestyle and culture revolve around animal agriculture?

According to Tuttle, it boils down to education, and Jim Cocoran, founder of Santa Fe Veg, agrees.

“There’s a lot of myths and misconceptions around veganism,” says Cocoran, who notes the group has been working to dispel them for the past four years.

In addition to hosting talks like this one, the group also educates through film screenings, cooking demonstrations and shopping tours to satisfy the interests of their 460-plus active members.

One myth he raises is the idea that vegans are weak, pale and unhealthy. However, prominent athletes like strongman Patrik Baboumian and ultra-marathoner Scott Jurek are just a few examples of fit vegans. The vegan diet eliminates cholesterol intake and provides simple carbohydrates to fuel active lifestyles, they say.

Another myth is that veganism is more expensive, but Tuttle claims that’s simply false. “It is possible to have a vegan diet on $4 a day,” he says. Dry goods, like rice and beans, provide more protein, fiber and carbohydrates than meat for the same price, and fruits and vegetables are, pound-for-pound, cheaper than meat. As organic, local agriculture increases, the cost of sustainable produce drops.

And in a broader context, meat is more expensive than plant-based foods, because the real cost of eating meat is externalized and ignored through the destruction of our environment and our empathy for life. Animal agriculture is further supported by huge government farm subsidies that fill the pockets of the ruling elite, he argues.

“Each American taxpayer pays $1,000 a year in subsidies to the meat and dairy industries,” Tuttle tells SFR, adding, “Animal agriculture is a war on nature.....full article here

[Shannon]

This thread has a lot of great dialogue. I've seen most of the doc and am going to get to the other links eventually.

Thanks for everyone's input I'm a self hating meat eater who is constantly trying to change my eating habits especially dairy, I have a feeling it's causing me internal distress and I'm not lactose intolerant ....it's not even close to doable if you're poor and were raised carnivorous ... Hopefully one day I can get it together.

[Akasha]

Posted by Saint Theresa (here)
This thread has a lot of great dialogue. I've seen most of the doc and am going to get to the other links eventually.

Thanks for everyone's input I'm a self hating meat eater who is constantly trying to change my eating habits especially dairy, I have a feeling it's causing me internal distress and I'm not lactose intolerant ....it's not even close to doable if you're poor and were raised carnivorous ... Hopefully one day I can get it together.

I'm poor, was raised carnivore and I'm not in America either, but I'm managing to do it, assuming you are talking about going vegan that is.

The following two links are a couple of recipes which were essential in getting me off dairy. The first is homemade coconut milk. The second is cashew mozzarella cheese:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post970653

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post973757

Try them out. You might find it's more doable than you think. Good luck

[Akasha]

Richard Oppenlander is one of the leading interviewees in Cowspiracy. Here's a related presentation by him entitled Sustainability and Food Choice: Why Eating Local, "Less" Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won't Work from a couple of years ago at the March 2013 McDougall Advanced Study Weekend:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

[Shannon]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by Saint Theresa (here)
This thread has a lot of great dialogue. I've seen most of the doc and am going to get to the other links eventually.

Thanks for everyone's input I'm a self hating meat eater who is constantly trying to change my eating habits especially dairy, I have a feeling it's causing me internal distress and I'm not lactose intolerant ....it's not even close to doable if you're poor and were raised carnivorous ... Hopefully one day I can get it together.

I'm poor, was raised carnivore and I'm not in America either, but I'm managing to do it, assuming you are talking about going vegan that is.

The following two links are a couple of recipes which were essential in getting me off dairy. The first is homemade coconut milk. The second is cashew mozzarella cheese:

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post970653

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post973757

Try them out. You might find it's more doable than you think. Good luck

Thank you, love. I will try my best to find ways around the barriers eventually and will use the ok is you've offered. I know in my heart anything is doable...it's just prioritizing

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)
you are mentally committed, and that's fine; but our very discussion of this topic could be causing physiological changes as the belief you have is challenged……

D'you think that might be why you dropped out this discussion instead of commenting on the entirety of the film? I was (and still am) looking forward to your critique of it although I do appreciate you have a lot on your plate.

Posted by TargeT (here)
human brains function differently when a strongly held belief is challenged, DRASTICALLY differently (and it's hardly perceptible to the person it happens to)…..

Is it possible that in this scenario you are being subject to the same dynamic?

Posted by TargeT (here)
Explanation of that phenomenon is in the first 10 min of this video (my favorite video on the internet BTW):

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dbh5l0b2-0o

[Akasha]

Cowspiracy is screened at the European Parliament:

On December 2, 2015, while the COP21 Climate Summit in Paris was in progress, the documentary Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret was presented to the European Parliament in Brussels, Belgium. This is a testament to the legitimacy and gravity of the contents of this film, as is it's worldwide presence on Netflix. This is the first of several short presentations that preceded the screening, an introduction by co-director Kip Andersen. Climate Vegan will post each talk in sequence, which include an intensive and up-to-date focus by Dr. Richard Oppenlander (author of Comfortably Unaware); Dr. Sailesh Krishna Rao, member of EU Parliament and Executive Director of Climate Healers; Molly Scott Cato, Member of EU Parliament UK; Stefan Eck, Member of EU Parliament Germany; Dr. Edmund Haferbeck of PETA Deutschland, Anne Kämmerling, Director of Sea Shepherd Deutschland, Felix Hnat of European Vegetarian Union and hosted by Eleonora Evi, Member of EU Parliament Italy. 750 DVD's of Cowspiracy were sent as holiday presents to every single European parliament member, and the film has also since been screened at the Dutch and Italian Parliaments as well!

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xPJqjB-WClU

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=z2JytUitqB0

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-PgMETKrQD4

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5JOEXxTx8-k

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DQ9w4_CR3Gg

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8YfcHRg9I

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=f5tnjKy5EYc

[Akasha]

The Friendly Activist follows Cowspiracy director, Kip Anderson around Paris from an anti foie gras demonstration to the Sustainable Innovation forum 2015, where they meet the CEO of Impossible foods, possibly the most exciting plant-based 'meat' purveyors on the planet:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4HKm_1uo3R8

[take]

Ah, cowspiracy. I've heard so much about it, thought I'd start my year by watching it.
Looking forward to watching it.
Btw, even without having seen it yet, I think there is absolutely no way one could feel positively about our modern agriculture and meat production... Some of my vegan friends have said they've gone vegan especially because of the antibiotics used in meat production..