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Thread: All Things Vegan!

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Approximately three weeks ago, CosmicSkeptic, without doubt YouTube's brightest and most refreshing young genius philosopher made a very contraversial video named "A Meateater's Case For Veganism". He was at the time not vegan, but since reading Singer's Animal Liberation had become challenged by the words there-in.


    Since then, he followed the logic to its ultimate conclusion and became vegan. He then went on a speaking tour of the USA where amongst other things, he appeared on The Atheist Experience with Matt Dillahunty and another UK YouTube philosopher, Rationality Rules.

    Now Dillahunty had already had a run-in with vegan Youtuber Vegan Gains and was able to defend his carnist position mainly due to his superior intellect. However, in the last week, CosmicSkeptic (Alex) and Matt recorded a conversation on the subject and lets just say things turned out a bit differently.

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Let me start by saying that I stopped eating meat at 18 as I realized that I cannot kill the animals that I was eating.
    In the many decades I have not stopped thinking though.

    If the rest of my post is off-topic, I apologize now.

    So, lets start with morality.
    When I ask people whether God is moral, the immediate answer of course is immediately YES.
    Well, the God in the bible commits atrocities of unimaginable proportions right? So clearly intellect or advancement seems to make someone less moral and not more so.

    Also, I cannot fathom why people think that because they are more intelligent that gives them the right to kill, murder and judge everything and everyone else (apparently the bible said that all animals are for us to do with them as we please, right?)
    Bacteria eat us all the time, well except those who choose to burn their bodies before bacteria get them, and in those cases I suppose fire eats them. Fire must be the highest source of intelligence, right, look at the sun.

    Then there is the question of suffering. That makes no sense, since pain can be easily controlled through drugs or just mental control (which releases drugs of unimaginable strength in the brain - so still drugs).
    So it must be OK to eat other humans or animals by making them feel pleasure as they are cut up?

    Then there is the issue of colonizing other planets or living on carved out asteroids, etc...
    Do we drag our food animals to space then?
    Cows in space I see a TV show here.

    These days there is advancement of meat grown in dishes. No body or brain, so is that OK? Can you eat delicious human buttock grown in a dish? Yummm...

    Then there is breathairianism. Well, if one can survive without food at all (that includes their arguments that they eat for pleasure only), I would love even 1 single demonstration. Only one will do. A human body can survive for a very long time without solid foods. Many prisoners have gone on hunger strikes for several months until being forced to "eat" intravenously.

    Drinking juice is NOT a form of not eating as it absolutely is a form of eating, just eating food that is more water.

    Also lets assume that humans can learn to "eat" the way plants "eat", photosynthesis. I don't see too many plants running around and expending vast amounts of energy. So is that what we would give up?
    Becoming a plant genetically speaking is not a huge stretch.
    For example, we share 50% of our DNA with bananas and in fact only 44% with bees. Bees mostly live on nectar (juice), but they don't live very long either.

    I am a vegan at heart, but still a hypocrite in life as I am awaiting ascension where I will not need either food, water or the sun to "live". I hear spirits don't eat or drink.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I was not going to comment on this thread, but one thing always bothered me.

    Plants are conscious beings and feel pain as much as we (and animals) do.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Dear DidgeVillage,

    As I have suggested in previous posts, I would highly recommend working through this thread because so far there hasn't been a single topic which you have brought up which hasn't already been comprehensively addressed. However, if that is too much to ask, please read the following article on the subject you just raised and then feel free to respond.

    Quote
    DO PLANTS REALLY FEEL PAIN? WHAT DOES SCIENCE SAY?


    Do plants really feel pain? Every now and then, a story will make the rounds on news sites and social media sharing the findings of a study that allegedly uncovered that plants, like animals, experience pain. These articles typically leverage the findings to push back at the ethics of not eating animals as if to say, if plants feel pain, then it’s really the same as eating meat, dairy, and eggs.

    These articles often cherry-pick findings from actual scientific studies which show certain capabilities of plants, but is the argument that plants feel pain really accurate? The way these studies are reported in the media can be quite biased, drawing conclusions from the research that the original authors never mentioned.

    Can Plants Hear Themselves Being Eaten?


    An oft referenced study is a 2014 study published in the journal Oecologia that was undertaken at the University of Missouri. Researchers found that a certain species of plant released defense chemicals that made it less appealing to herbivorous creatures in response to the sound vibrations of caterpillars munching on it.

    The Sun newspaper reported on this study, the headline to the piece crowing, “what are the veggies going to eat now?” The article claimed that plants “know” when they are about to be eaten, and are “not happy” about it. Business Insider news website also published an article on this study, opening with “vegetarians and vegans pay heed,” before going onto say that plants “don’t like it” when they are eaten.

    The scientific study which these assumptions have been drawn from, predictably, makes no such claims suggesting that plants are as consciousness or as sentient as farm animals. While plants were able to differentiate between the vibrations caused by an insect dining and the rustle caused by wind, the study states that “the ecological significance of these responses is unclear.”

    One of the researchers who conducted the study, Dr. Heidi Appel, summarized their findings as follows; “We found that feeding vibrations signal changes in the plant cells’ metabolism, creating more defensive chemicals that can repel attacks from caterpillars.”

    Do Plants Really Feel Pain?


    Our current understanding of pain involves sensory and emotional, both subjective components. Analogous neurological structures (for example, specialized pain receptors, also called nociceptors) are found in both human and non-human animals, according to a 2009 study in the National Academies Press.

    Studies have also shown that animals are likely to experience the emotional, subjective components of pain. No matter what the animal – dog, cow, pig, cat, bird, etc – most will respond to pain in a physical sense. Unlike animals, plants don’t have a central nervous system or brain. If they did, then they might run away from or fight back against insects or machines that harvest them, like in the case of animals who have escaped slaughterhouse trucks.

    Plants, however, do not have such analogous structures. Plants can respond to stimuli, like the aforementioned species that released unsavory chemicals while being eaten by an insect or they can turn towards the sunlight. While plants are rooted, videos show that they do move around throughout the day. But, they don’t have the same fight-or-flight response to the threat of pain or death that humans and non-human animals have. And there is no scientific evidence to show that they can “feel” in the same way as humans and other animals can.

    Professor Daniel Chamovitz, Dean of the Faculty of Life Sciences at Tel Aviv University, is a plant scientist who had conducted extensive research into how plants experience the world. He has even written a popular book on the topic: 2013’s “What a Plant Knows: A Field Guide to the Senses.” Although Professor Chamovitz often talks about plant feelings, stating that they are not the inanimate objects that many believe they are, he acknowledged in an interview that “a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.”

    Speaking to how plants function, he said, “If you think about it, rootedness is a huge evolutionary constraint. It means that plants can’t escape a bad environment, can’t migrate in the search of food or a mate. So plants had to develop incredibly sensitive and complex sensory mechanisms that would let them survive in ever changing environments.”

    In a nutshell, plants are able to sense things like sound, sun, and even smell as an evolutionary necessity because they are largely immobile. Additionally, animal right nonprofit Mercy for Animals notes that plants have no nociceptors, the specific receptors that allow humans and animals to feel pain.

    Do Plants And Animals ‘Feel’ The Same Way?


    Animals, on the other hand, are wholly capable of experiencing and responding to pain and stimuli. According to the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP), pain is “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage.” 

    The definition, which is technically applicable to humans, emphasizes the importance of self-reporting pain – think the charts at a doctor’s office, a scale of one to ten, etc. Even the IASP acknowledges that measuring pain can’t be pinned down to an exact science, as different people will have different definitions of what a pain level is. One person’s “severe” could be another’s “moderate.”

    And while animals can’t verbalize their pain in the same way that humans do, it doesn’t mean that they don’t experience it. Due to advancements in science, techniques such as Judgement Bias Testing (JBT) show that animals experience pain in a way similar to humans – not plants, as coverage of the “plants feel pain” study implies.

    What JBT does is measure an individual’s “affective state,” or emotional state through how they respond to ambiguous situations. This can be applied to animals through training them to associate tasks with positive or negative outcomes. For example, one study involving dairy calves aimed to uncover if the animals were in a negative headspace following disbudding, a method of dehorning young cattle that involves use of a hot iron.

    In the study, titled “Pain and Pessimism,” researchers trained calves to learn that if calves touched a red computer screen with their nose, they would be rewarded with milk. If the screen was white, they received nothing. Calves quickly learned the correlation and would touch the screens when red, but ignore it when the screen went white.

    After that, researchers introduced the more ambiguous dark pink and light pink screens – and found that calves were more likely to touch dark pink screens. The calves then underwent hot-iron disbudding before being exposed to the colored screens again. After the painful experience, calves were less likely to respond to pink screens. Researchers concluded that the traumatic experience had a negative affect on the animals’ mental state.

    For the trial, calves were given an anesthetic but in many countries, including Australia, Denmark, and New Zealand, no local anesthetic is required for calves under a certain age. It can be speculated that if the calves’ pain wasn’t numbed at all, then the effects on their mental state would be greater.
    Plants, however, can’t be given the same treatment as calves – while they may respond to different levels of light, flora wouldn’t respond when presented with the same options as dairy calves.

    Science is always evolving and advancing (that’s part of what makes it so great!), so it may be the case that in years to come we find out that plants are sentient in their own way, and if that day comes we may have to think about how we treat them. However, in terms of our current scientific understanding, there are clear differences between plants and animals as mentioned above.

    Even if, in an unlikely future scenario, plants are found to have “feelings” similar to animals, using it as a counterargument against a eating animals is a moot point because livestock raised for meat, dairy, eggs, etc, are fed plants.
    It is estimated that “for every 1 kg of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are fed about 6 kg of plant protein,” according to the study “Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment.”

    If this is the case then many more plants are killed to feed an animal up to slaughter weight, and then kill and eat the animal, than to just kill and eat the plants ourselves. When it comes to soybeans – a staple ingredient used to make tofu, tempeh, and more modern plant-based meat – 98 percent of the crop grown in the US is actually used to feed livestock.

    source
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    How many on Avalon or visitors to this site think eggs, meat and dairy are not unhealthy or are even healthy?

    Well if that’s you (and you want to reduce your risk of, or even reverse, heart disease or diabetes) I would recommend watching the following presentation on cholesterol by Dr. Neal Barnard M.D.

    It’s entitled “Cutting Through the Cholesterol Confusion” and is essential viewing given how much flip-flopping government health agencies and media outlets have done over the years on this subject.

    Seriously, everyone owes it to their own health to watch this presentation! Ignore at your peril! In other words when you're in the E.R, about to become another heart disease statistic, don't say Akasha didn't warn you.

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    So a non-vegan boyfriend, fed up with buying non-dairy milk for his vegan girlfriend decided to secretly replace the plant-based milk with dairy milk. Cue the inevitable train-wreck, but not in a way you might think:

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I get that many of the posts on this thread go largely unnoticed by the majority here but this is one covering what could and probably will be the biggest game changer for human and animal existence on the whole planet. What am I talking about? Clean meat, or if you prefer, lab-grown meat. Whether you are horrified or excited by the notion, it is probably the most likely solution to the issues created by current meat production. I mean let's face it, the world isn't going to go vegan anytime soon, even though there clearly is a transition taking place. No, it's frankenmeat which will be the game-changer, assuming that it doesn't end up having dire unforeseen health consequences, in which case Impossible and Beyond will continue to dominate this new market as they are currently doing.

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    For anyone who hasn't yet seen this thread started by Onawah, Animals are Magical, do please head over to it. It is a beautiful tribute to all the creatures who inhabit this earth. May we honour all beings.

    I thought that this was worth copying and pasting here.

    This video is by interspecies Communicator Anna Breytenbach



    One of the comments on the youtube page:
    Skye said: "If animals in zoos are unhappy, imagine how animals on animal concentration camps (aka factory farms and slaughterhouses) are feeling, where they are abused and tortured and kept in extremely confined and filthy living conditions. The first step in learning to understand animals is to stop eating them. I wonder how none of these people in the audience are interested in the 150 billion animals that are killed for our food every year, as if they didn't exist at all."

    Animals killed for slaughter around the world for food, every second.

    http://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/

    Mother Earth is a conscious being. She is us in another form. If we truly contemplate the implications around this, maybe animals are just us in another form too.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I would also recommend this one highly:

    (Also posted here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1291186 )

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    For anyone who hasn't yet seen this thread started by Onawah, Animals are Magical, do please head over to it. It is a beautiful tribute to all the creatures who inhabit this earth. May we honour all beings.
    Last edited by Constance; 12th May 2019 at 21:56. Reason: fixed quote formatting
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    May we honour all beings.
    I'm with you. May we honor all animals and plants.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Here is my experiences with going vegan. I did it for about 3 months, eating real food such as brown rice and soybeans, sometimes tofu, veggies, etc. I felt pretty good, except sometimes had trouble sleeping, felt kind of jumpy. One autumn day I skipped breakfast, just sipped orange juice all day. I went for a drive (for my job) with the sun coming through the windshield. But not a strong summer sun, just a mild autumn sun. That night my entire face and eyelids swelled up, and it took over a week (going back to meat eating) to go down. I suspect I was not assimilating enough protein to protect my skin from the sun, and maybe my nervous system from wifi or EMF (the sleep issue). I have concluded that my body needs some animal protein, even though my blood type is A+, the "natural vegetarian."

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    One autumn day I skipped breakfast, just sipped orange juice all day. I went for a drive (for my job) with the sun coming through the windshield. But not a strong summer sun, just a mild autumn sun. That night my entire face and eyelids swelled up,
    Was your orange juice freshly squeezed or store bought? One possible reason you may have had an allergic reaction is that you may have been reacting to mold in your orange juice if it was store bought? Orange juice often contains mold if it is store bought because during the manufacturing process, when the oranges are squeezed, they squeeze the entire orange, even the moldy ones. Consuming a large quantity of orange juice containing mold would be enough to create an instant allergic reaction.

    In relation to protein, when a newborn baby is receiving breastmilk, the total amount of protein they receive per serving is a measly 1.5 percent. This is for a growing child.


    I've had a quick search of the thread here and I couldn't find any links to Dr. Garth Davis and his excellent work (although I could have sworn I have already posted this here somewhere). His video and his book are aptly named Proteinaholic.




    Here is another excellent talk given by Dr. Stanger on the dangers of excess protein.

    Last edited by Constance; 17th May 2019 at 00:01.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Was your orange juice freshly squeezed or store bought? One possible reason you may have had an allergic reaction is that you may have been reacting to mold in your orange juice if it was store bought? Orange juice often contains mold if it is store bought because during the manufacturing process, when the oranges are squeezed, they squeeze the entire orange, even the moldy ones. Consuming a large quantity of orange juice containing mold would be enough to create an instant allergic reaction.
    In relation to protein, when a newborn baby is receiving breastmilk, the total amount of protein they receive per serving is a measly 1.5 percent. This is for a growing child.
    I can't drink orange juice from concentrate, I get acid stomach, but it was store bought. But it was not an allergic reaction. I had it happen once before, when on a fruit diet. On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened. There was something missing in my diet that, over a period of 3 months, did not afford protection against sun exposure.

    Babies are brand new, and I would not expect to be as healthy as baby in middle age. However, mother's milk is not vegan, it is animal protein. Had I been drinking that, I might have been OK. But based on my experience, I believe animal protein is much more assimilable than vegetable protein, even though every day I was eating real soybeans and brown rice, which complement each other amino acid-wise, to become a complete protein.

    It's great when quasi-religious thinking lines up with reality, but unfortunately, in my experience, it usually doesn't :-)

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Ekiken Kaibara, a Japanese botanist (18-19th century), wrote in his classic Yojokun that tofu is toxic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaibara_Ekken

    https://paleoleap.com/dangers-soy/

    I also read in the Nexus Magazine that the soy protein is actually detrimental to human health. If I find it, I will give you the link.

    Brown rice is loaded with mycotoxin, and I remember there was a discussion about it here.

    It is ironic that people ingest harmful substances in the belief that they are eating healthy foods.


    ---
    https://nexusmagazine.com/product/so...v=24d22e03afb2
    https://nexusmagazine.com/product/th...v=24d22e03afb2
    Last edited by Didgevillage; 17th May 2019 at 02:46.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened.
    That's interesting - people do often react to fruit. My own personal reaction on an all fruit and herb diet was to go into a heavy detox. However, I've now come out the other end and apart from a couple of mild ongoing issues, I'm far healthier now in my "middle age" than I have ever been in my entire life.

    I write about it here

    Quote There was something missing in my diet that, over a period of 3 months, did not afford protection against sun exposure.
    Health and wellbeing is such a multifaceted thing - I wonder what it is?

    My own personal experience since making fruit my primary diet is that I actually seem to tan very readily and I don't burn. I'm not sure what the protective qualities of the fruit have been - it is something that I now want to definitely research.

    Quote However, mother's milk is not vegan, it is animal protein.
    No argument with you there. I was just pointing out that we require very low amounts of protein in order to thrive.

    Quote But based on my experience, I believe animal protein is much more assimilable than vegetable protein, even though every day I was eating real soybeans and brown rice, which complement each other amino acid-wise, to become a complete protein.
    Fair enough. There is one camp of naturopathy that would argue that cooked foods and grains are incredibly hard to digest, especially beans.

    I never did well either on the traditional vegan diet of nuts, grains, seeds, legumes and vegetables, cooked or raw. However, on the fruit - a completely different story.

    Edited to add: The caveat to add here is that what I share about what I am eating is just my own personal testimony. I am not recommending that everyone should do this, or anyone for that matter! This is purely an experiment on my behalf and I ask that people listen to their own bodies, read lots of books and watch lots of videos on nutrition.
    Last edited by Constance; 18th May 2019 at 22:52.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Didgevillage (here)
    Brown rice is loaded with mycotoxin, and I remember there was a discussion about it here.
    It is ironic that people ingest harmful substances in the belief that they are eating healthy foods.

    And it's even more ironic that the healthiest people in the world eat the most rice!
    Soybeans & brown rice is my secret formula, gives me a lot of energy.
    You may be right about tofu; I think it might pull nutrients from the body the way refined sugar does. That's the problem with refined foods, they seek to make themselves complete again in your body!

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened.
    That's interesting - people do often react to fruit. My own personal reaction on an all fruit and herb diet was to go into a heavy detox. However, I've now come out the other end and apart from a couple of mild ongoing issues, I'm far healthier now in my "middle age" than I have ever been in my entire life.
    However, I did a 4-week fruit diet at another time with no adverse reaction. And I even had sun exposure. But that one time I had heavy summertime all-day exposure on the 10th day, which messed me up. So it wasn't a reaction to the fruit, it was a reaction to the sun. On the vegan diet, it took 3 months to deplete my reserves, which I wouldn't have known had I not skipped meals. I wonder what would happen to a fruitarian if they skipped meals as I did? Would they find their reserves depleted?

    I think it's possible that one could acclimate to a fruit diet as Dick Gregory did, but it would probably take a long time. The test is: can you skip eating without bad effects? In other words, what kind of reserves does your body possess?

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)

    I wonder what would happen to a fruitarian if they skipped meals as I did? Would they find their reserves depleted?
    That is a very good question TomKat regarding skipping meals.

    Personally, I have completed three different types of fasts whilst on a fruit and herb diet. I have intermittent fasted, dry fasted and juice fasted.

    I have heard many anecdotal stories about people experiencing great bursts of energy whilst fasting - and as a side note, I've experienced this for myself.

    There are two lines of thought as to why this occurs; I'm sure there are many more thoughts around this but the following two are what I am consciously aware of. The first is of a physical nature - parasitical and bacterial die off; the second is of a metaphysical nature - the body is open to receiving more chi/prana. Have you checked out any of the fasting threads on Avalon?

    Initially, I did experience a loss of energy whilst soley on a diet of fruit and herbs but I would venture to say that this initial loss of energy came about because I was no longer eating stimulating foods (Robert Morse ND calls stimulating foods neurotransmitters) - it exposed an adrenal issue.
    Last edited by Constance; 17th May 2019 at 20:03.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Like so many other things in the universe, orange juice is not what it seems. Buying the reconstituted may actually be healthier than the "100% juice not from concentrate" product in the American supermarket.

    From Dr. Mercola:
    • For industrially-produced orange juice, after the oranges are squeezed, the juice is stored in giant holding tanks and the oxygen is removed from them, which allows the liquid to keep for up to a year without spoiling
    • As this makes the juice completely flavorless, the industry uses “flavor packs” to re-flavor the juice
    • Squeezing your own at home would be about the only way to get the real thing. But while oranges and fresh squeezed orange juice can be a good source of vitamins and other nutrients, they are also very high in fructose
    • Fructose has been identified as one of the primary culprits in the meteoric rise of obesity and related health problems. This is why you should pay equal attention to the fructose consumed in the form of fruit juices and even whole fruits, and not just that from soda and processed foods

    You can find the full article here:
    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/16/dirty-little-secret-orange-juice-is-artificially-flavored-to-taste-like-oranges.aspx

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I often hear vegans say that they are filled with energy or felt a burst of energy when they ate such and such vegetable/fruit.
    I just can't help wondering if that means they are lethargic and have no energy at all under normal circumstances.
    Please prove me wrong.

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