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Thread: All Things Vegan!

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    meh, we all are custom models, my only intent is to stop the polarization and supposition that there is "one way".......

    that is IMPOSSIBLE...



    I've cut myself down to the lowest non-plant (mostly biased against grains) diet I can, and it's doing amazing; but Id say the majority of it is my fasting and time restricted eating; but when I do consume eating unprocessed red meats seems to be good for me, and my wife (no doubt we were at least somewhat attracted to each other somewhat due to this).

    I mean, there are examples...



    seems similar to the vegan poster child's...
    I still say we should eat much more time restricted.

    I will say, for me... eating time restricted heavy meat diet is extremely satiating and I gain muscle and loose visceral fat rapidly.
    Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)

    Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.
    your continued use of logical fallacy as your "trump card" is not very conducive to discussion.

    Why attack the messenger and not the message? Who is Rich Piana? Who is Lobliner? Did you just basically hope for someone to die in the above post? (Is this representative of veganism? extreme hypocrisy?? where's the compassion now? is a challenged idea all it takes for you to become the calloused hunter?) I look for information, not cult of personality... why no **** talk against the only person who's name I do know and actually typed?

    Your responses are lacking in substance; I mention that new research has come out and you shift the conversation to some personality?

    I think this type of attitude is a large portion of why I do not like veganism.. because it is an "ism".


    This was interesting (Waiting for this guy to to die too??)
    Last edited by TargeT; 9th August 2018 at 12:49.
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  4. Link to Post #623
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)

    Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.
    your continued use of logical fallacy as your "trump card" is not very conducive to discussion.

    Why attack the messenger and not the message? Who is Rich Piana? Who is Lobliner? Did you just basically hope for someone to die in the above post? (Is this representative of veganism? extreme hypocrisy?? where's the compassion now? is a challenged idea all it takes for you to become the calloused hunter?) I look for information, not cult of personality... why no **** talk against the only person who's name I do know and actually typed?

    Your responses are lacking in substance; I mention that new research has come out and you shift the conversation to some personality?

    I think this type of attitude is a large portion of why I do not like veganism.. because it is an "ism".


    This was interesting (Waiting for this guy to to die too??)
    No logical fallacy, just facts. The fact that Sean Baker's blood-work was terrible - no debate! The fact that Lobliner (Tiger Fitness: second video in post 620) is a business man who makes his very substantial living from whey protein which will have come from a dairy operation just like that one illustrated in the post before you jumped in and went off topic. Lobliner was only interested in the carnivore diet because, in his own words, Baker had told him he could incorporate whey into such a diet, therefore giving him a commercial incentive to go down this road.

    Dr Gustin is only 5.5 weeks in, so let's reserve judgement until, like Baker, he has been on the diet for a year, assuming he lasts that long, either on the diet or alive!

    You talk about logical fallacy (again), but what about your other favorite catchphrase, namely confirmation bias. If you can step back one iota, you'll quickly recognize your own guilt in this regard.

    TargeT, I'm not hoping these people will die, but unlike you, I'm also hoping that the animals won't die too.

    Edit: I should also address the Purdue University research you linked to.

    Quote Summary: Consuming red meat in amounts above what is typically recommended does not affect short-term cardiovascular disease risk factors, such as blood pressure and blood cholesterol, according to a new review
    Read the summary closely. The words speak for themselves. Namely, short-term risk factors and eating amounts above what is recommended. Just an illustration, before you cry logical fallacy again, are 30 fags a day going to be really that much worse 20? And will the results be immediate (short term)?
    Last edited by Akasha; 9th August 2018 at 13:40.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    No logical fallacy, just facts.
    Well, there was a lot of Ad hominem going on there when I posted a message and you spoke directly to the messenger (that would be hte logical fallacy right there...)

    I think it would have been less divisive to mention the blood test results, or other data points (so far I see that one individuals blood tests were "terrible", hard to quantify that).

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    TargeT, I'm not hoping these people will die, but unlike you, I'm also hoping that the animals won't die too.
    Hmm, I guess I express my hope that animals will die in a very interesting way... To the effect that I spend somewhere near $90,000 a year for feed, medicine, water, vet care etc and turn down ZERO animals that need my assistance (that's why I have pigs, goats, sheep, mongoose, cats, dogs, horses, donkeys etc.....) to include drastic cases such as this one:


    (there are many, many more.. I recently got my phone stolen and lost hours of video I had yet to edit).

    No, I do not hope animals will die, in fact; I personally, every day, do FAR more for animals than the vast majority of people on earth, probably more than 90% of vegans (more like 99% I'm sure).

    I'm simply not into dogmatic rhetoric and (not off topic) think that the benefits of a "meat only" diet should not be ignored when this topic is brought up; echo chambers serve no one and I feel that this forum is more of an educational tool and less of a "hey lets all agree" space (which again... serves no one).

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Edit: I should also address the Purdue University research you linked to.

    Quote Summary: Consuming red meat in amounts above what is typically recommended does not affect short-term cardiovascular disease risk factors, such as blood pressure and blood cholesterol, according to a new review
    Read the summary closely. The words speak for themselves. Namely, short-term risk factors and eating amounts above what is recommended. Just an illustration, before you cry logical fallacy again, are 30 fags a day going to be really that much worse 20? And will the results be immediate (short term)?
    A study for short term and a study for long term effects are quite different (in funding especially).

    20 cigarettes vs 30 cigarettes are very close numbers... what if it's 2 a day vs 20 a day? I'd say there's a significant difference there, and I'd love to start a debate on actual risks involved with tobacco consumption (I feel we have been mislead there a bit...).

    This video runs down a lot of the claims against Red Meat & shows how mostly baseless they are:


    I mention this because the conversation centered on Veganism should be based in facts, and "meat is bad for you" is not factual.


    In short, this is another topic that is heavily politicized and based in a LOT of false concepts.

    If anything plants are worse for you than red meat... at least after my research on double blind clinical trials (not Epidemiologist based "science"... which is by far the weakest of methodologies).
    Last edited by TargeT; 10th August 2018 at 18:55.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Maybe checkout the following video from Dr. Greger on the subject of the carnivore diet:


    .......and as I've said before, kudos for your animal rescue efforts, but do those efforts negate the deaths of the animals you are responsible for through your dietary choices?
    Last edited by Akasha; 10th August 2018 at 19:15.
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  10. Link to Post #626
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    So the guy with the heavy accent doesn't understand English very well, or at least not when it is used scientifically.... "associated with" in the science realm is almost meaningless... correlation does not equate to causation (another logical fallacy) and that seems to be the best I've found as far as actual studies that claim "meat is bad for you". Dr Greger has some extreme bias as well it appears based on some quick googling (claims of cherry picking studies and staunch anti-meat bias in his websites and publications).. so I cannot take his word, I need to see the referenced studies.

    See this video (linked above, by Nina) which details how and why there are no valid studies used to discount meat, and quite a few valid studies that are ignored (and do not show any negative effects).


    I'd like to see this gut bacteria study (which I hope isn't based on epidemiology methods again) so I can read some actual details, not just sound bites by an uninformed Englishman.


    I have posted a video that diligently goes through the studies used by IARC panel that said "red meat is bad" and shows the lack of due diligence, the panel members that should have recused themselves and the poor methodology which influenced the food pyramid among other things (to include possible laws in the US); a video that shows how every study they relied on is flawed or misleading AT BEST; not to mention the fact that many panel members are lifetime vegans and anti-meat... why were they not recused immediately from the process due to conflicts of interest??

    You respond with a strangely edited video that does not list any studies,methodology's or actual facts (as far as I can tell these are all just opinions with no referenced studies) which I feel further illistrates the point I tried to make above.

    There is a clear agenda that does not reguard facts or science as "good enough" to prove a point. That is politics and biased agenda, not something we should base policy decisions (Nor health decisions) on!


    at the end when he says "not only does red meat have all the saturated fat and cholestorol that is going to clog my arteries anyway"......


    This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.. conclusions based on ZERO science......

    Quote The Women's Health Iniative is the largest randomized controlled trial on diet in history. In this study, 48.835 postmenopausal women were randomized into a low-fat diet group and a control group who continued to eat the standard western diet.

    After a period of 8.1 years, there was no difference in the rate of cardiovascular disease between the two groups (59). The diet did not work for weight loss, breast cancer or colorectal cancer either (60, 61, 62).

    Another massive study, the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT) involved 12.866 men at a high risk of heart disease. This is the group of people most likely to see a benefit if the low-fat diet actually worked.

    However, after 7 years, there was no difference between the men randomized to a low-fat diet and the group eating the standard western diet, despite the fact that more men in the low-fat group also quit smoking (63).

    The low-fat diet got tested, it didn't work. Period.

    Overall, there is zero evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease, or that reducing saturated fat leads to a reduction.

    Just for fun, I'd also like to show you this graph of how the obesity epidemic started at the exact same time the low-fat dietary guidelines were released to the American public:
    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...eople#section5

    The TMAO argument is very weak as well... our bodies are FAR to complex to think that eliminating one thing will have a direct effect thirty steps down a chain that we are barely understanding as it is.

    Sounds like this doctor likes to "bafle with bull****"... or in other words, flood people with information they don't understand so they mentally give up and acquiesce... I'm not that type of person however, I'd rather understand where his premises are coming from, and so far I'm not finding anything very good.


    Another great video on the global "dietary shake up" that is currently occurring:
    Last edited by TargeT; 10th August 2018 at 23:34.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    So the guy with the heavy accent doesn't understand English very well, or at least not when it is used scientifically.... "associated with" in the science realm is almost meaningless... correlation does not equate to causation (another logical fallacy) and that seems to be the best I've found as far as actual studies that claim "meat is bad for you". Dr Greger has some extreme bias as well it appears based on some quick googling (claims of cherry picking studies and staunch anti-meat bias in his websites and publications).. so I cannot take his word, I need to see the referenced studies.

    See this video (linked above, by Nina) which details how and why there are no valid studies used to discount meat, and quite a few valid studies that are ignored (and do not show any negative effects).


    I'd like to see this gut bacteria study (which I hope isn't based on epidemiology methods again) so I can read some actual details, not just sound bites by an uninformed Englishman.


    I have posted a video that diligently goes through the studies used by IARC panel that said "red meat is bad" and nearly everyone bases their conclusions on (to include possible laws in the US); a video that shows how every study they relied on is flawed or misleading AT BEST; not to mention the fact that many panel members are lifetime vegans and anti-meat... why were they not recused immediately from the process due to conflicts of interest??

    You respond with a strangely edited video that does not list any studies,methodology's or actual facts (as far as I can tell these are all just opinions with no referenced studies) which I feel further illistrates the point I tried to make above.

    There is a clear agenda that does not reguard facts or science as "good enough" to prove a point. That is politics and biased agenda, not something we should base policy decisions (Nor health decisions) on!


    at the end when he says "not only does red meat have all the saturated fat and cholestorol that is going to clog my arteries anyway"......


    This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.. conclusions based on ZERO science......

    Quote The Women's Health Iniative is the largest randomized controlled trial on diet in history. In this study, 48.835 postmenopausal women were randomized into a low-fat diet group and a control group who continued to eat the standard western diet.

    After a period of 8.1 years, there was no difference in the rate of cardiovascular disease between the two groups (59). The diet did not work for weight loss, breast cancer or colorectal cancer either (60, 61, 62).

    Another massive study, the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT) involved 12.866 men at a high risk of heart disease. This is the group of people most likely to see a benefit if the low-fat diet actually worked.

    However, after 7 years, there was no difference between the men randomized to a low-fat diet and the group eating the standard western diet, despite the fact that more men in the low-fat group also quit smoking (63).

    The low-fat diet got tested, it didn't work. Period.

    Overall, there is zero evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease, or that reducing saturated fat leads to a reduction.

    Just for fun, I'd also like to show you this graph of how the obesity epidemic started at the exact same time the low-fat dietary guidelines were released to the American public:
    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...eople#section5

    The TMAO argument is very weak as well... our bodies are FAR to complex to think that eliminating one thing will have a direct effect thirty steps down a chain that we are barely understanding as it is.

    Sounds like this doctor likes to "bafle with bull****"... or in other words, flood people with information they don't understand so they mentally give up and acquiesce... I'm not that type of person however, I'd rather understand where his premises are coming from, and so far I'm not finding anything very good.
    I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.

    Can you list some evidence that you rely on for that decision?

    I'm focused solely on the science, the philosophical aspect seems well understood and honestly portrayed.

    Nina Teicholz (videos posted above) was a 20 year vegan before switching to a high fat diet with great results and has written the most comprehensive book on the topic which garnished many accolades.

    https://thebigfatsurprise.com/
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.

    Can you list some evidence that you rely on for that decision?

    I'm focused solely on the science, the philosophical aspect seems well understood and honestly portrayed.

    Nina Teicholz (videos posted above) was a 20 year vegan before switching to a high fat diet with great results and has written the most comprehensive book on the topic which garnished many accolades.

    https://thebigfatsurprise.com/
    Sure:

    1) the ongoing work of Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic whose legacy continues to reverse chronic heart disease in patients by way of a whole foods, plant-based diet,

    2) the ongoing work of Dr. Neal Barnard in continuing to reverse diabetes through a whole foods, plant-based diet,

    3) the ongoing research of Dr. Michael Greger which continues to strengthen the case for the benefits of yup, you guessed it, a whole foods, plant-based diet. Interesting that you accused him of cherry-picking because you are indeed correct. He is very diligent in only cherry-picking data not sponsored by the industry.

    To be clear, that is by no means an exhaustive list.

    Regarding Nina Teicholz:

    Quote .....Chapter 1: The Fat Paradox: Good Health on a High-Fat Diet

    On page 11-12 Teicholz discusses the Masai tribe of Africa and how they consume quite a bit of milk daily yet have very low cholesterol (much like Taubes does in ch. 2 of GCBC). She also mentions that they are not fat and they don’t have high blood pressure. I don’t know why she throws the blood pressure and leanness in there since no one claims that milk causes high blood pressure, nor that these African tribes that walk about 30 miles per day and burn 300-500 kcals/hour would be fat because they drink milk. The real crime here is one of omission.

    In support of her argument that diets heavy in saturated fat won’t lead to high cholesterol because the Masai do it, she cites an article published in the NEJM titled “Some Unique Biologic Characteristics of the Masai of East Africa.”1 The entire point of that article was to claim that the reason that the Masai have such low cholesterol levels despite a diet heavy in saturated fats was because they have a unique feedback mechanism that suppresses endogenous cholesterol synthesis that most of us don’t have. Yet there of course is no mention of this in the text (or GCBC) because to suggest that their low cholesterol was due to genetics would hurt her meat-is-good-for-you narrative.

    Continuing with the Masai on page 12, Teicholz discusses George Mann and his findings:
    If our current belief about animal fat is correct, then all the meat and dairy these tribesmen were eating would have caused an epidemic of heart disease in Kenya. However, Mann found exactly the opposite—he could identify almost no heart disease at all.

    As evidence for this she cites a paper titled “Atherosclerosis in the Masai” that does indicate very little evidence of infarctions, but does state the following:
    We find the Masai vessels do show extensive atherosclerosis; they show coronary intimal thickening which is equal to that seen in elderly Americans.
    Mann goes on to say that the reason why there are so few occlusions despite the extensive atheroslcerosis is that the Masai’s blood vessels enlarge as they age.

    Now that we have uncovered some very important points that were concealed by Teicholz, we are still confronted with an odd reality. The Masai consume a ton of milk and likely a fair amount of meat and yet they do not have elevated cholesterol levels due to a unique biological mechanism. Despite the low cholesterol they still get atheroslcerosis. Enough that men in their prime have the blood vessels of elderly Americans. Yet despite even this they manage to escape heart attacks because their vessels are larger than average. Wow. I don’t know what to make of the Masai, except that they are indeed a unique people. In this case I think we can treat the Masai as outliers and not assume that we can live like they do and remain free of heart disease.

    * * *

    On page 14 Teicholz discusses a text by Hrdlicka3,4 published near the turn of the (last) century and states:

    The Native Americans he visited were eating a diet of predominantly meat, mainly from buffalo, yet, as Hrdlicka observed, they seemed to be spectacularly healthy and lived to a ripe old age.

    However, if you go look at the text you will find that the diet of Native Americans is based around, y’know, the most abundant crops in the Americas: corn and wheat. There are several pages devoted to describing the diet, so I don’t want to quote all of it, but perhaps this will give you an idea of what Hrdlicka really found. Page 19:

    The principal article of diet among the Indians throughout the Southwest and Mexico is maize, which is eaten in the form of bread of various kinds, or as mush, or boiled entire. It is also parched on charcoal and eaten thus, or is ground into a fine meal, which, sweetened, constitutes the nourishing pinole of some of the tribes. Wheat is used in similar ways but less extensively. Next in importance to corn and wheat in the Indian diet are meat and fat and beans. Meat is scarce.

    For a more nuanced view of the issue see this post and scroll down to “Hrdlička and the diet of Southwestern Native Americas.”
    * * *
    Page 15, Teicholz attempts to make the case that Africans living in British colonies nearly 100 years ago ate a ton of meat and had basically no cancer. As evidence for both of these claims she cites what amounts as a Letter to the Editor in the BMJ by George Prentice.5
    The British Medical Journal routinely carried reports from colonial physicians who, though experienced in diagnosing cancer at home, could find very little of it in the African colonies overseas. So few cases could be identified that “some seem to assume that it does not exist,” wrote George Prentice, a physician who worked in Southern Central Africa, in 1923.

    If you bother to look at the publication by Prentice you will notice that right after he says that some seem to assume that cancer does not exist, he immediately states why this is both a false and dangerous belief that has led to a patient of his dying of cancer because he himself believed that Africans did not get cancer when he was a younger doctor. He didn’t remove a breast tumor when he could have and should have and that his patient died because of this. Prentice also says in addition to breast cancer he sees other cancers all the time:

    I have also seen epithelioma of the face. In this case the eyelids and the whole of one eye were completely destroyed, and the bone of the eye socket was attacked; the case was inoperable. I have seen a tumour, fungating and evidently malignant, that had practically split the bones of the face, causing the eyes to bulge laterally and giving a strange chameleon look to the patient. It was inoperable. I have seen cancer of the left ovary that proved fatal. I believe I have seen cases of malignant disease of the liver, but as there was no autopsy the diagnosis was not confirmed. I have removed many large tumours of the testicle which, if not cancerous, are of a nature unknown to me. Keloids and fatty tumours are very common.

    In case you could not tell, Teicholz takes Prentice’s words completely out of context to make it appear he was communicating the opposite of what he was actually communicating.......(full article here)
    Please take the time to read all the review of The Big Fat Surprise. It is rather long but as you are focused solely on the science, i'm sure you'll appreciate the work that has gone into it, even if its conclusions are in conflict with your current views on the subject.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I've read the papers... why did you ignore the modern (last 5-10 years) studies?

    we get smarter as time goes on... I hope at least we can agree on that
    Last edited by TargeT; 12th August 2018 at 05:20.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    I've read the papers... why did you ignore the modern (last 5-10 years) studies?

    we get smarter as time goes on... I hope at least we can agree on that
    You asked me for evidence on why I decided on a vegan diet (from a health pov) and I gave you answers which are ongoing. They are up to date, not only the last five to ten years although those doctors have been reversing their patients chronic illnesses during that period also.

    I agree that we get smarter as time goes on, but we figured out that two plus two equals four aeons ago. Should we also re-adress that simple equation in light of our new found intelligence?

    Please share your thoughts on the Big Fat Surprise critique I shared. If you are genuinely interested in the science, which I've no doubt you are, aren't you just the teensiest bit concerned about her repeated lies by omission and by extention, those of her more-often-than-not source, Gary Taubes?
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    More reasons to avoid supermarkets: customers handling poultry are likely to be spreading salmonella and campylobacter!
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote .....if you frame it (global warming) as only a fossil fuel issue there is nothing you can do about it. You are stuck! But if you understood the truth and you realized the power you have with your food choices you will start making changes yourself.....
    Sailesh Rao of Climate Healers' latest presentation:

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Debunking the "humane" myth (not graphic):

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Juliet Gellatley, founder & director of Viva! goes undercover and discovers that there is suffering in every glass of milk:
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    France Avalon Member OopsWrongPlanet?'s Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I am amazed to have only just found this thread, which has been going for three years! Thanks for starting it Akasha. I have read the first couple of pages and the last, and hope to get to the rest as time permits. Although at the moment it just seems to be the two of you 'slogging it out', I feel to chime in just with what happened in my life, as eating plants only seemed to form part of waking up in general, (or to be a by-product of it).

    As part of awakening in 2012, or could we say as a by-product thereof, I felt more and more to go towards a plant-dominated, and then later a plants-only eating routine. It has also entailed whole foods, cutting down/out processed foods and sugar, and eating at least like-for-like (if not more) raw food as compared with cooked. It has also involved a fall-off in consumption of alcohol, coffee, chocolate and some other chemically more intense foods/drinks.

    This has not felt like a political decision, nor a doctrine, but it happened through a sense of instinct, love and positivity. For this body (which has gone from around 240lbs down to a more 'average for the height' 180lb), the by-products have been added sense of wellbeing, more agility, and psychologically there has a generally heightened sense of love towards living creatures and humans.

    I feel slow to judge others, much less to get aggressive with those who see and feel these issues differently from how I do, although arguments have recently come to the fore in the press (Guardian, Science Journal, Nature) about the need for humankind to switch more to a plant based diet, away from eating animal products, if desolation of the environment is to be avoided.

    Some people who eat meat and animal products seem to characterise 'vegans' as aggressive, but - although I don't doubt that this can happen - I have never so far encountered this myself. I HAVE however noticed several carnivores/omnivores being aggressive towards planteaters such as myself. Eg 'Stop ramming veganism down our throats'. And I can't help wondering whether there is some sort of denial going on, as I realise that there was with me to some extent when I was a meat-eater.

    Is it possible that once animal-killing/sacrifice ceases to be part of our nutritional life habit, that seeing the truth (in general) may become sharper? It's just a question.

    x

    M

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I've heard rumours that the people who lived on the lost continent of Atlantis had "discovered the benefits of being vegetarian", before it eventually sunk into the sea. I know it's not quite the same as vegan, but close enough.
    I too am having similar instincts.

    I know for absolute certain, if I had to kill animals in order to eat meat, I wouldn't be eating ANY meat.

    Akasha's video sounds like "viewer discretion is advised" and so I am using my discretion and choosing not to look.

    I imagine it's probably about the cows suffering. If something's suffering when we kill it, and then we end up eating it - that does sound kind of toxic. If anyone's ever watched Temple Grandin movie, which is based on a true story, she was a big advocate of NOT frightening the cows. Interesting side note: Temple Grandin (according to the movie) mostly lived off of Jell-O

    Quote I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life, and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animals respect.
    —Temple Grandin

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    [A very good question IMHO.


    Is it possible that once animal-killing/sacrifice ceases to be part of our nutritional life habit, that seeing the truth (in general) may become sharper? It's just a question.

    x

    M[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Yes, Petra, I have seen the Temple Grandin film, and there was much to inspire in there.

    Another general question, however, related to the quote you referred to:-

    Quote I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life, and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animals respect.
    —Temple Grandin
    If we take this quote seriously, if we judge that eating animals can be ethical, are we willing to embrace the corollary that for ET races to eat humans is ethical, so long as they treat us right, and give us a painless death? Seems to me sometimes that we may have a pretty skewed, self-centred view of ethics on this question....(?)

    x

    M

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    This has not felt like a political decision, nor a doctrine, but it happened through a sense of instinct, love and positivity.

    I like what you wrote oops...
    I concur

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