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Thread: All Things Vegan!

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Robin (here)
    One thing that I would like to add to this thread is the distinction between eating a Raw Food diet of fruits and vegetables vs. a Cooked Food diet of fruits and vegetables.......
    .....People eat a Raw Food diet because living fruits and vegetables, that are not cooked, contain a life force not unlike what we call prana. When we cook fruits and vegetables, this life force dissipates and we do not take it into our bodies. .
    I'm totally down with that Robin. Thanks. 'All things vegan' certainly encompasses raw veganism and raw vegans are more than welcome to share their methods and insight on the topic.

    I'd say about 30% of my calorific intake is raw, which obviously leaves room for improvement which I am slowly working on, but I'm not quite at the stage yet where I can do without my homemade loaves, curries, pastas and the occasional vegan pizza etc.... which reminds me - vegan 'mox'arella cheese recipe to follow imminently.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    It seems that civilised western humans are the only creature that actually have no clue what to eat to be maximally healthy, strong and robust! I wonder, how did that come to be?

    Physiology (as some have mentioned) gives us some clues.

    Animals that are prey to predators all have their eyes at a wide angle generally, arranged on either side of their heads so as to see as much around and above as possible.
    Predator animals have their eyes close together facing forward so they can focus intently on prey.

    Which do humans have?

    I have discovered one of the most sensible sources (imho) of physiological advice and he has this to say on food: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

    Diet must be one of the most contentious issues we have between us.

    Again - I wonder, why?

    Could there be a psy-op in effect intended to sicken (but not kill outright) as many as possible by recommending diets that are ruinous in the long term? And 'they' make sure to attach all sorts of ideas of ethical, moral, spiritual, financial and health superiority to them?

    Take one of the 'staples' for example: Modern wheat is the perfect chronic poison.

    That it took me 50 years! to discover how to eat correctly to support a healthful, energetic, resiliently robust physiology should be unacceptable to everyone.

    I shall not be contributing more than this to this thread as my experience indicates that it is in fact a waste of time trying to convince anyone of anything in this arena, you will all have to discover for yourselves the reality of your choices. Having been omnivorous, vegetarian, vegan, raw vegetarian, raw omnivorous and, finally - Primal (saturated fat=70%, animal protein=20%, carbohydrates=10% as measured by calories) with all seeds, nuts and grains excluded - I now know more than I did and am enjoying stable, robust health.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by StandingWave; 19th June 2015 at 10:40.
    "There is nothing in a caterpillar that tells you it's going to be a butterfly." R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Love and Peace
    Last edited by Gurudatt; 26th June 2015 at 13:17.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I tried to be a vegan and how i wish I am but i lost muscles strentht stamina. I am not a vegan because it does not suite me ragardless of what kind of teeth I have by

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    If you've ever grown food, you'd see that in the fall, the harvest time, plants become very prolific in their production of their own seeds. Harvest tomatoes or peppers the right way, and you'll fill baskets and baskets full of the food stuff they provide.

    No one ever eats the entire apple tree, and this can be true for all the food we eat.

    In fact, apple trees need to have their seeds eaten by other forest dwelling creatures. Otherwise, their seeds will fall to their own base, and, a cluster of apple trees would all be living in the same place, fighting for the same sunlight and drinking from the same amount of water.

    They rely on other forest dwellers to carry their seeds off and drop them elsewhere.
    Last edited by Earthlink; 19th June 2015 at 13:26.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    .....There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier......
    Hi Matt,

    I would recommend the China Study to combat the notion that removing animal products isn't valuable to human health - pdf here.

    From Wiki' here:

    Quote The China Study is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It was first published in the United States in January 2005 and had sold over one million copies as of October 2013, making it one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[2]
    The China Study examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products (including dairy) and chronic illnesses such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[3] The authors conclude that people who eat a whole-food, plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding all animal products, including beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of numerous diseases. They write that "eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy."[4]
    They also recommend sunshine exposure or dietary supplements to maintain adequate levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products.[5] They criticize low-carb diets, such as the Atkins diet, which include restrictions on the percentage of calories derived from carbohydrates, which would, by quantity, reduce the benefits of complex carbohydrates.[6] They are also critical of reductionist approaches to the study of nutrition, whereby certain nutrients are blamed for disease, as opposed to studying patterns of nutrition and the interactions between nutrients.[7]
    The book is loosely based on the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study – described by The New York Times as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology" – conducted by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University and the University of Oxford. T. Colin Campbell was one of the study's directors.[8] It looked at mortality rates from cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973–75 in 65 counties in China; the data was correlated with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood work from 100 people in each county. The research was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live and eat in the same way in the same place. The study concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods.....



    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    .....The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

    Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???.....

    When we see how largely as-yet unconditioned souls, i.e. very young children respond to animals currently regarded as food, the results speak for themselves. No doubt many parents of young children are rueing the day when they will have to explain the reality of the fate of those cuddly farmyard creatures. To me, it seems the common strategy is to ween the child onto the stuff early enough so that when it does make the connection, the addiction will be sufficiently established as to overcome the revulsion to the notion.

    It should also be worth noting that one of the childhood pre-cursors to psychopathy is cruelty towards animals, so kids are normal if they don't exhibit that behaviour and yet are coerced into it by social / parental conditioning.....and we wonder why we have a messed up world. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

    With all that considered, I think the actions of those like your friends highlight how effective conditioning can be, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Akasha; 19th June 2015 at 13:29.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    hmmm. Well (deep topic) Human Beings the world over still get sick and or get sick and die, from eating meat every year. Every day.

    Much care has to go into preparing meats and other animal products, so that we do not get sick and die more often from consuming them.


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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

    You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

    So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    errr ... you want me to take this one? I don't believe in god, however, the idea itself of a loving caring creator, I don't think, would have ever intended anything for all of the myriad of species here to do but one thing, each and every one of them. They should grow old and die as grandparents, like everything else. Teach their children what they know, and pass on, to come back and do it all again. Perhaps easier the next time, for the knowledge and experience they gain each time, and share amongst each other.

    Ultimately everything that exists in the Universe exists for only one reason: an eternity as energy in the energy stream is just too monotonous.

    And everyone should read the bible. We need more atheists!
    Last edited by Earthlink; 19th June 2015 at 13:49.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by grannyfranny100 (here)
    You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

    You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

    So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!
    Troll away to your heart's content Grannyfranny. That's definitely the most entertaining post so far and I happily welcome more like it .
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    And hey, speaking of different types of dishes we can prepare, you know, cooked vs raw, absolutely one of my all time favourite things to eat are salads, with slices of apples or other fruit in them. What a difference just adding thin slices of apples to a salad makes! Absolutely yummy! And, yeah, salads are all uncooked. Don't kill the plants, but do take their seeds. They need you to. They exist for that reason alone.

    Animals on the other hand, live to teach their children and make more of themselves, and grow old and die a natural death, so that they may return.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Frugivorous (fruit-eating) animals play a vital role in dispersing the seeds of hardwood trees. This includes primates, large birds and even tortoises.

    The reality of the bio diverse life forms on this planet is that they all need each other, and without which, they would perish. Using the apple tree again as an example, apple trees can not reproduce by themselves. First they need some kind of a winged species to pollinate their flowers, and then they need some other forest dwelling species to carry those seeds off and drop them elsewhere. Even we Humans have a multitude of independent life forms in us, without which we too would die of starvation.

    And, uh, is it just me, or, do any ever wonder about the long list of amendments that were added to the commandment: thou shalt not kill? I mean, from what I've heard from god fearing people over the years, is that there are hundreds of amendments to that law, however, you're not allowed to see those amendments, or something.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Earthlink (here)
    And, uh, is it just me, or, do any ever wonder about the long list of amendments that were added to the commandment: thou shalt not kill? I mean, from what I've heard from god fearing people over the years, is that there are hundreds of amendments to that law, however, you're not allowed to see those amendments, or something.
    Don't forget their almost blanket dismissal of Genesis 1.29, normally on the grounds that it was merely pre-diluvial, divine, dietary advice so it doesn't count:

    Quote And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by Robin (here)
    One thing that I would like to add to this thread is the distinction between eating a Raw Food diet of fruits and vegetables vs. a Cooked Food diet of fruits and vegetables.......
    .....People eat a Raw Food diet because living fruits and vegetables, that are not cooked, contain a life force not unlike what we call prana. When we cook fruits and vegetables, this life force dissipates and we do not take it into our bodies. .
    I'm totally down with that Robin. Thanks. 'All things vegan' certainly encompasses raw veganism and raw vegans are more than welcome to share their methods and insight on the topic.

    I'd say about 30% of my calorific intake is raw, which obviously leaves room for improvement which I am slowly working on, but I'm not quite at the stage yet where I can do without my homemade loaves, curries, pastas and the occasional vegan pizza etc.... which reminds me - vegan 'mox'arella cheese recipe to follow imminently.
    I wasn't trying to spout Raw Veganism as the best diet humans can take on. I was just trying to elucidate certain elements of the benefits of eating raw. I myself am a vegan, as you know, and I try to eat raw as much as possible. But I also do enjoy cooked foods, and there are many benefits to eating cooked foods as well, of course. I just think it's important to look at food as being vibrational energy we take in, and whether it is cooked meat that came from a cow that was murdered in a slaughterhouse or an organic apple plucked right from the tree, all the food we eat resonates at different frequencies (makes one wonder of the danger of microwaves...). I think it is simply important for us all to keep this in mind as we eat the foods we eat...mindfully.

    Mindful eating...yes...definitely a good way to approach one's eating lifestyle.
    "Rather than love, than fame, than money, give me truth."
    ~Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I'm gonna take advantage of this thread's relatively high profile to highlight the incredibly important documentary, Cowspiracy.

    Noir started a thread on it a while back but it has since been buried so here's the link to it again. Although it has still not, as of yet, been released on Youtube, there are several torrents serving it up. Please take the time to watch it. It is not a slaughterhouse shocker like Earthlings and is actually very entertaining in it's own right.



    Below is an interview with it's director and protagonist, Kip Andersen.

    Last edited by Akasha; 19th June 2015 at 21:38.
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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Eloquent Youtuber, Kerry McCarpet addresses, amongst other things, veganism in relation to religion, something it is repeated compared to. Right Grannyfranny?

    Mild caution - very occasional strong language

    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Hi Akasha,

    The China study is a big one. Quite an epidemiological feat. However, like many big studies data can be extracted and cherry picked to suit an author/journal/sponsors agenda or simply to validate personal held beliefs.

    For example when looking closer at some of the data, it contradicts it's overall conclusions hence confirming the null hypothesis. For example, the author fails to mention examples like the town of Tuoli in China where it's inhabitants ate twice as much protein as the average American amd barely any vegetables or plant foods, yet the data indicates they were extremely healthy with very low rates of cancer and heart disease, more so than most of the vegan diet based areas.

    This is one of many examples in this study in what is a perfect case of selective citation. Now just to be clear, I'm not suggesting high protein diets like this example in the study is healthy for all populations, there is actually lots of evidence that high protein diets are indeed linked with heart disease and cancer. I was simply higlighting an example of selective citation.

    Spend a day looking at the high level evidence ie systematic reviews and you will find no evidence that a balanced diet of lean meat fruit and vegetables is no worse for you regarding chronic disease than a vegetarian or vegan diet. A quick google scholar search will provide that info fairly quickly, although even systematic reviews can be flawed with all kinds of bias, so to the untrained eye analysis of research can be a bit of a mine field.

    I'm not sure I quite understand your point regarding conditioning with children. Children would probably try and go up and pay a rhino if they weren't taught they would be killed if they tried. Parents must teach/condition their young to survive, so I don't necessarily agree that conditioning in of itself is wrong. You might have to expand on this further for me to wrap my head around it.

    As a young kid, say 6-9 I did all sorts of horrible things to insects, snails and lizards - literally torturous things that make me feel sick now to think of it. Can you expand on what you believe was behind that? I personally think it was a bit experimenting with life/death pain. Do you think that was conditioned by cartoons I watched or catching some of the nightly news or just a natural impulse to experiment, like I cam already see my 2 year old do.

    Regarding my farmer friends being the ones conditioned vs me, that could end up a circular debate. Nevertheless expand on that a little more. Part of me wants/hopes to agree with you. I'm just not convinced.

    Thanks,

    Matt








    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    .....There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier......
    Hi Matt,

    I would recommend the China Study to combat the notion that removing animal products isn't valuable to human health - pdf here.

    From Wiki' here:

    Quote The China Study is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It was first published in the United States in January 2005 and had sold over one million copies as of October 2013, making it one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[2]
    The China Study examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products (including dairy) and chronic illnesses such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[3] The authors conclude that people who eat a whole-food, plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding all animal products, including beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of numerous diseases. They write that "eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy."[4]
    They also recommend sunshine exposure or dietary supplements to maintain adequate levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products.[5] They criticize low-carb diets, such as the Atkins diet, which include restrictions on the percentage of calories derived from carbohydrates, which would, by quantity, reduce the benefits of complex carbohydrates.[6] They are also critical of reductionist approaches to the study of nutrition, whereby certain nutrients are blamed for disease, as opposed to studying patterns of nutrition and the interactions between nutrients.[7]
    The book is loosely based on the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study – described by The New York Times as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology" – conducted by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University and the University of Oxford. T. Colin Campbell was one of the study's directors.[8] It looked at mortality rates from cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973–75 in 65 counties in China; the data was correlated with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood work from 100 people in each county. The research was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live and eat in the same way in the same place. The study concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods.....



    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    .....The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

    Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???.....

    When we see how largely as-yet unconditioned souls, i.e. very young children respond to animals currently regarded as food, the results speak for themselves. No doubt many parents of young children are rueing the day when they will have to explain the reality of the fate of those cuddly farmyard creatures. To me, it seems the common strategy is to ween the child onto the stuff early enough so that when it does make the connection, the addiction will be sufficiently established as to overcome the revulsion to the notion.

    It should also be worth noting that one of the childhood pre-cursors to psychopathy is cruelty towards animals, so kids are normal if they don't exhibit that behaviour and yet are coerced into it by social / parental conditioning.....and we wonder why we have a messed up world. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

    With all that considered, I think the actions of those like your friends highlight how effective conditioning can be, not the other way around.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    ….and you will get the message….
    Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.



    Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

    On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:



    I think I may have mentioned this before on this forum: I had my first taste of meat (wild elk ) in my 20's (grew up near vegan with some raw milk a few times per year) and in my latter 20's was introduced to Sally Fallon's NT material. I had read Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration as a teen (I was a nutritional student) and think it is indeed an excellent book...........that said I got heavily into NT and even became a chapter leader. That's when I developed a breast lump............I gained so much weight and felt utterly ill. Long story but in short I switched back to a plant based diet (I had to heal breast cancer along the way as well) and haven't looked back. I'm 48 now and it's been well over ten years now since I made the switch and won't be going back. I function better on all plant (mostly raw but now with some cooked tubers and pumpkins) and have had this tested out metabolically (metabolic carb type), genetically (extensive heart panel plus genetic testing) and with a bio energetic machine (Assyra). I do believe some people just do function better off an all plant diet, those that don't might want to include some non plant food but make the bulk of their diet plant. Of course I've met all sort of people who tried living off all plant and their gut biome (and genetics, metabolic type etc) just doesn't support it so a few live off of a zero carb diet (all meat and fat) and are feeling better. On a spiritual level, I am an animal lover and just cannot wrap my head around killing a sentient being just to land on my dinner plate.

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    United States Avalon Member Hip Hipnotist's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Jeez, it's been so long since I logged in here I forgot my log in info and had to meditate to remember it. Actually, I got it from my note pad. But I do meditate. Sometimes.

    So, the way I see it -- the more meat, dairy, processed and general junk food eaters there are the more fresh fruit and vegetables are left for me. So keep eatin' yer way to a coronary, kids. Don't say I didn't warn ya's.

    I speak from experience and not necessarily from a 'forked' tongue. I had a massive heart attack and CABGx4 ( that's a quadruple bypass ) and all the trimmings that go along with it; five days in ICU, two of those on a ventilator and total of ten days in the hospital ( the norm being 5 - 7 ). I shouldn't be here typing this now but thanks to a non deterring will to cause trouble here I am.

    No, perhaps eating fleshy things, processed things and general junky things, you know, the typical western diet, wasn't the cause of my arteries clogging to the size of a pin head. ( No exaggeration. Well, perhaps just a little. Actually the size of pencil lead. Number 2 to be exact. ) But I have a sneaky suspicion that what I use to think was actual food WAS the MAJOR cause of that not so pleasant experience. And if that wasn't bad enough the thought of being on a plethora of pharmaceutical cocktails for the rest of my natural life, which is what the medical professionals said would be my future was actually scarier than the heart attack!

    So, being the sort of rebellious type that I am I said to myself, "Myself, screw this!" ( that's the censored version ) and dove head first into the world of "How to keep myself from ever having to have my chest cracked open and giving my heart over to some stranger I never even met ( No, I didn't. I arrived unconscious to the hospital. ) wearing a mask and rubber gloves who for all I knew was up all night snorting nitrous oxide along with the anesthesiologist while playing beer pong.

    And what I discovered on my journey was -- hold on to yer hats, kids -- you may not believe this -- drum roll please...

    a PLANT-BASED DIET!!

    Oh, my god -- he said the PBD words! Call the food police! And not just plant-based...

    but VEGAN!!! Oh, my god -- if the PBD words weren't bad enough now he went and said the V word!!!

    Yeah, what of it? You wanna fight about it!? Let's take it outside!! Or at least away from the keyboard!

    Okay, all seriousness aside I am now a vegan, have been for almost 3 years and off ALL meds for over 2. And in the best health of my life. The cardiologist I USE to see says, "I don't know what you're doing but keep it up." And I say, "Thanks, doc, see you around. And oh, by the way, dead doctors don't lie." And he just smiles.

    No, vegan diets don't work for everyone but it saved mine. And no offense, but I'm the one who I care about. And my cat, Lily. And guess what again? Lily eats vegan cat food! Woop! There, he said it again! But this time the VCF words! Now don't tell anyone but I know Lily has teeth that would tear through a Pterodactylus and that's why who ever created her put them there but damn, she sure loves that vegan cat food. And if Lily likes it, then that's what I'm givin' her. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. ( Hey, this is Colorado, you know? )

    So, what do I eat? Not important. It's more of what I don't eat. What most of western civilization still considers food. The 'stuff' in just about every supermarket shopping cart in every American supermarket masquerading as a food store. The 'stuff' that keeps allopathic doctors in serious demand -- and you waiting in line at the Walgreens pharmacy ( or drive-up ) for your next big pharma fix. ( Well, not exactly YOU, but I'm sure you know someone? )

    In one of Joey's ( I think ) post he says, "Going unprepared into Vegan mode does not seem a good decicsion to me..."

    And to that I would reply, "Jumping out of an airplane unprepared; taking ayahuasca unprepared; running from the cops unprepared; diving into a swimming pool without a bathing suit ( well, that could be fun to watch ) etc., etc., etc. Partaking in any endeavor 'out of the norm', 'out of the box' requires at least a minimum of understanding. Do your research. Then do some more. And if you're really serious do some more. But for Pete sake don't just regurgitate some propaganda you heard or saw on Boobtube and consider it fact. ( Not YOU. But I'm sure you know someone? )

    And especially don't listen to me. I'm just trying to make up for lost post time here and you ( Yes, YOU ) just happened to be on the receiving end of some information that just so happens to be -- fact!

    So once again, put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

    or cake and eat it.

    or... ?



    Oh. See ya in another year or so.

    unless some unfortunate poster wants to debate/argue/fight over these facts. I'm ready to rumble!
    Last edited by Hip Hipnotist; 20th June 2015 at 07:15.

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    Hi Akasha,

    The China study is a big one. Quite an epidemiological feat. However, like many big studies data can be extracted and cherry picked to suit an author/journal/sponsors agenda or simply to validate personal held beliefs.

    For example when looking closer at some of the data, it contradicts it's overall conclusions hence confirming the null hypothesis. For example, the author fails to mention examples like the town of Tuoli in China where it's inhabitants ate twice as much protein as the average American amd barely any vegetables or plant foods, yet the data indicates they were extremely healthy with very low rates of cancer and heart disease, more so than most of the vegan diet based areas.

    This is one of many examples in this study in what is a perfect case of selective citation. Now just to be clear, I'm not suggesting high protein diets like this example in the study is healthy for all populations, there is actually lots of evidence that high protein diets are indeed linked with heart disease and cancer. I was simply higlighting an example of selective citation.

    Spend a day looking at the high level evidence ie systematic reviews and you will find no evidence that a balanced diet of lean meat fruit and vegetables is no worse for you regarding chronic disease than a vegetarian or vegan diet. A quick google scholar search will provide that info fairly quickly, although even systematic reviews can be flawed with all kinds of bias, so to the untrained eye analysis of research can be a bit of a mine field.

    I'm not sure I quite understand your point regarding conditioning with children. Children would probably try and go up and pay a rhino if they weren't taught they would be killed if they tried. Parents must teach/condition their young to survive, so I don't necessarily agree that conditioning in of itself is wrong. You might have to expand on this further for me to wrap my head around it.

    As a young kid, say 6-9 I did all sorts of horrible things to insects, snails and lizards - literally torturous things that make me feel sick now to think of it. Can you expand on what you believe was behind that? I personally think it was a bit experimenting with life/death pain. Do you think that was conditioned by cartoons I watched or catching some of the nightly news or just a natural impulse to experiment, like I cam already see my 2 year old do.

    Regarding my farmer friends being the ones conditioned vs me, that could end up a circular debate. Nevertheless expand on that a little more. Part of me wants/hopes to agree with you. I'm just not convinced.

    Thanks,

    Matt
    Hi Matt. Re' the China study, I am not a epidemiologist, nor a statistician so I won't comment on your query from a personal perspective. However the point you made was raised in detail here by a certain Denise Minger (excerpt from her lengthy critique of The China Study below) -

    Quote “The China Study” is a compelling collection of carefully chosen data. Unfortunately for both health seekers and the scientific community, Campbell appears to exclude relevant information when it indicts plant foods as causative of disease, or when it shows potential benefits for animal products. This presents readers with a strongly misleading interpretation of the original China Study data, as well as a slanted perspective of nutritional research from other arenas (including some that Campbell himself conducted)
    ....and T.Colin. Campbell responded to it here, not surprisingly, in equally lengthy fashion. I think it's best you read it for yourself rather than me trying to interpret it. (excerpt of his conclusion below) -

    Quote In the case of our project in China, I believe that its design, its uniqueness and its execution are virtually without parallel in its quality-thanks very much to my colleagues. However, as trained people know, making specific inferences about causality is not appropriate in a study of this kind. The concept of 'ecologic fallacy', wherein a univariate correlation is improperly used to diagnose or to treat an individual person, is well known. In contrast, if one initially has a reasonably convincing and biologically plausible body of data and if the data are appropriately qualified, then using a study like to this to see if there is consistency, is appropriate This is appropriate in my opinion if the hypothesis being addressed represents a comprehensive causal effect where many factors are acting in concert and where there may be multiple ways of examining the data (e.g., multiple factors being consumed, multiple clinical biomarkers of factor tissue status, multiple methods of measurement and, perhaps, even multiple outcomes). This is what we did. We began with a collection of previously developed cause-effect models (previously published) that we could test for consistency with the China data. We found on balance considerable support in the China database for these models. As I've said many times, not all the evidence in the China database supported this conclusion, although the large majority did. To find this degree of consistency in a population mostly using a low fat, high fiber, whole plant-based foods with little or no processed foods--where I had thought that we would see little or nothing--was impressive. One cannot, as Denise has done, rely on univariate correlations to make conclusions, especially when they are focused on specific foods for specific diseases--it is too easy to find what one wants to find.
    I know that this discussion between Denise and me is difficult to judge by readers of this exchange without having access to the raw data base and without knowing how to use or interpret it. Accepting this, therefore, I suggest that, in the final analysis, the reliability of any conclusion about complex cause-effect issues should be judged by its ability to predict health outcomes. In this case, the results of people using a diet of whole, plant-based foods, as shown by physician colleagues (previously mentioned, McDougall, Esselstyn, Ornish, Barnard, Fuhrman, et al) as well as by many of the readers of our book are nothing less than incredible. There is nothing else in medicine like it!
    Regarding children and conditioning, maybe take a look at a related post I shared a while back here

    Excerpt from that post -

    Quote A few years back my partner was baby-sitting two young sisters. They'd just been watching Finding Nemo and now it was time for tea. She laid out some salmon and veg' for them at which point the parents came back and prompted their older daughter to eat her fish to which she retorted defiantly, "salmon's not a fish!" When her remark had been satisfactorily corrected she became more than a little upset.

    One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

    With the vast majority of children preferring to make friends with what their parents would rather they regarded as dinner, the meat trick is inevitably going to be traumatic once the trivium (there you go, T) has been applied to the situation and there is now no escaping the fact that they have, perhaps for some time, been eating what they would have naturally considered their friends.

    What effect does such a horrific realisation have on the mind of the young individual concerned? Is it possible that certain alters are created at the point of such a realisation? Alters that condone what has just happened in an effort to manage the cognitive dissonance which the child is now and possibly for the first time experiencing?
    Hope that helps. X
    Last edited by Akasha; 20th June 2015 at 14:12.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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