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Thread: All Things Vegan!

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Thanks so much for your contributions, ERK and Hip Hypnotist. Personal testimony is always gold, especially in threads of this nature, and also, especially when it speaks of such radical healing and transformation, so once again, thank you both and all (vegan) power to you!
    Last edited by Akasha; 20th June 2015 at 14:19.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Thanks so much for your contributions, ERK and Hip Hypnotist. Personal testimony is always gold, especially in threads of this nature, and also, especially when it speaks of such radical healing and transformation, so once again, thank you both and all (vegan) power to you!

    Thanks, I think it's best if anyone wants to go vegan to do their research and then try it out- but keep in mind one's personal diet might need tweaking. I've tweaked mine over the years and taken what works for me from various nutritional and diet models (raw veganism, paleo/primal, metabolic typing) to tailor a diet that best suits my needs. I function better without grains but can handle a small amount of beans and so on. I enjoy some foods cooked over raw (tubers, brassicas like Brussel sprouts , broccoli and cauliflower, artichokes etc) and I practice intermittent fasting and don't eat until later in the day. I might have a green juice after I workout or a piece of fruit around 2-3 PM but normally eat dinner and a dessert an hour or so later (fruit in season or some raw creation I make).

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Heya Hip Hipnotist, good to see you're doing alright, and, your post made me happy.

    I've built things all my life, from a very young age, and physical work is all I've ever done. About 20 years ago, when I dropped all the garbage food from my diet, all the fake sugars and animal products, my life got a lot better. I was never bogged down again by the too energy intensive process in my gut that has to happen when I put animal products in there. I eat less now, and have way more energy. I, like you, do not need to be convinced that you're not but smart for what you did, and I too have went through that transition.

    I know that the mainscream media has peddled a few olympic athletes in front of everyones eyes, and their claims are that the animal based diets they profess to eat are good for them, however, the reality is that virtually all olympic athletes are strict vegetarians. In games where fractions of seconds matter, no animal based diet athlete will ever beat a vegetarian.

    And like you, I don't care what others opinions of this are. That olympic athletes who compete in direct competition, like running races or swimming races, are in fact all vegetarians has been true forever.

    edit: yeah, I never eat breakfast anymore either. one good full meal a day, and perhaps a few snacks, is more than enough.
    Last edited by Earthlink; 20th June 2015 at 19:36.

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    United States Avalon Member Hip Hipnotist's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Ah, I know I said I'd see ya in another year or so but since today's a 'slow news day' and it's a little hot outside ( 100 ) to play I'm stayin' inside until it cools down to at least 98 or so.

    I also said that what I eat isn't important ( as opposed to what I don't eat ) but perhaps I should share some of what I do consume.

    I guess I'm pretty lucky in that I didn't have to experiment with this, that, and the other in finding what was not only healthy ( for me ) but what I love to eat. And that's for the most part, another drum roll please... STARCH! Yep. Starch. Bread, corn, pasta, potatoes, beans etc. When I knew I had to kick out the poison processed junk I'd been scarfing since childhood ( jeez, no doubt in my mothers womb ) (( Sorry, mom. But wherever you are you know it's true. )) ((( But I've forgiven you for you were as brainwashed as the rest of us. ))) I searched to see what particular healthy diets, proven by peer reviewed case histories would suit my particular 'taste buds'. And Dr. John Mcdougall's recipe for good health was right up my alley -- or down my esophagus.

    I do eat mostly organic, none GMO and locally grown when and where available but I ain't anal about it. And I do eat that gooey, sugary, cream-filled chocolate double fudge cake every now and then. But boy do I pay for it afterward. BIG time. But boy is it worth it.

    I'm not concerned about gluten, cholesterol, wheat, grain and so on because I don't have to be. It works for me. In fact I can eat the same thing(s) for days and completely enjoy and maintain perfect health. But that's just me. I'm special. I'm sure no one else on this forum or anywhere else could eat like I do and maintain perfect health. Right?

    So once again, all seriousness aside, DO what works for you. But DO something to keep yer asses outta the hospital 'cause that's where it's headin' ( those that haven't already been there -- like yours truly ) if you keep snortin' that processed, fat-laden, chemical-ridden bovine excrement that seems to pass for actual food. Remember what that late, great philosopher Confucius said, "Be true to your teeth and they won't be false to you!"

    or was that Soupy Sales?

    BTW: You think eating mostly starch makes you fat? Well, perhaps you. But I'm 5'11" and weigh 140. I use to be 6' but gravity and age will 'chop you down'.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    What makes people fat are the fake sugars and animal products. It has little to nothing to do with exercise (that's their way of making you feel bad by pointing the finger at you) Of course there are people who eat fake sugars and animal products all the time and remain relatively skinny, however that is not a conscious choice. A segment of the population, the ones who remain skinny, will eat that crap and their body will discharge most of it, not recognizing it as food or anything of value, but the other segment, the ones who do get fat, it is because their bodies recognize the fake sugars as something that kind of looks like real sugars that they MAY need someday, so, they just stick it over there, and the very same is true of the animal products, their bodies recognize it as something they themselves also make from amino acids, animal fats are all similar, and again their body just sticks it over there (inside themselves)

    As a result of this disinformation to the public, what it ends up being is a life long curse to all those who are overweight. That would be like me strapping on a napsack in front of myself and one behind, each with 50 lbs. or rocks in them, and wearing those around everywhere I go, even into and out of bed.

    A curse.

    Naturally skinny people should not lecture others about food. All you'd be doing is the incantations and ceremonies that will result in a life long curse onto them. Shame on you! hahahahaha
    Last edited by Earthlink; 20th June 2015 at 22:37.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Napping (here)
    Thanks for these threads Akasha and all those that contribute. They've been difficult to read for a meat lover like myself, because they've forced some difficult self reflection.

    Before I go on, let's just clear up something that I hear regularly - that veganism is better for your health and that as a society our health is deteriorating. There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier. Surprisingly enough we're continuing to live longer than ever, largely due to modern and alternative medicine and better access and awareness of what constitutes a healthy diet. Yes, cancer appears to be more prominent and hormones injected on some foods and pesticides etc may be playing a part in this, however, life expectancy is double what it was a couple a hundred years ago, so I'd say we're on a continuem of improvement.

    Back to why this topic makes me uncomfortable. It's because I genuinely can't watch or bare to think about what an animal is going through for it to end up on my plate. The very fact I feel this makes me wonder whether indeed I should be eating it then. That earthlings movie was horrific and if I can't manage to watch animals being killed for my consumption should I be eating it?

    The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

    Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???

    Love to know your thoughts.

    Cheers,

    Matt

    Matt, I really appreciate your heartfelt post. I can also relate to your thinking processes. I chose to rationalize eating meat for years. We are so heavily conditioned to disrespect animals every time we turn around. If you ever watch television look at the frequency that animals are disrespected. We personify them and make them say foolish things in postcards, cartoons and advertisements. I watched a commercials that had a fish flopping around dying out of water so the viewer could be encouraged to by a specific drug for asthma.

    Disrespecting animals keeps us separated from the whole. It allows us to believe that we are better and different than all things organic on this planet. In fact, for the most part we do everything we can to distance ourselves from the natural world. It reminds me of fighting a war with drones. One can kill and destroy and never have to have direct contact with that which is ruined. That is how most of us live. We make our little spaces as pleasant as possible and turn off the atrocities that are all around us.

    I believe we can only go so far on the road to personal development and self honesty before we are forced to address our part in the cruelty that occurs here. It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. To accept my part in it and learn to accept myself for contributing to it has been a huge challenge. I do not delude myself in thinking that I don't cause harm to this planet, but I am not willfully participating in the cruelty that humans do to animals every day and that makes living here a little easier.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by grannyfranny100 (here)
    You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

    You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

    So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!



    granny. I am curious about the intensity of your reply????? It seems there is a great amount of pent up anger there and I don't feel anyone participating in this thread deserves that. Have you asked yourself why you are so angry? When something evokes such a strong personal response I find it is almost always about me and not the thing that I am directing my anger at.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I think Grannyfranny has left the building, or at least the thread, although I welcome her return should she wish to comment further. in the meantime, and as eluded to in an earlier post, here's a life-saving (for an ex-cheese head like me at least) recipe for moxarella cheese as a really handy vegan mozzarella replacement, suitable for cheese on toast, topping for broccoli 'cheese' bake and of course vegan pizza. It really helped me get over my cheese addiction when I transitioned from vegetarian to vegan, so here goes:

    Moxarella Cheese

    Ingredients:

    75 gm cashews (unsalted)

    350 ml hot water

    5 TBS tapioca flour

    2 tsp Dijon mustard

    2 TBS olive oil

    2 cloves of garlic

    1 1/2 tsp Himalayan salt

    2 tsp lemon juice

    3 TBS nutritional yeast

    Blend all the ingredients in a jug blender until smooth, then transfer to a saucepan and cook on a low heat stirring continually until thick, and I mean thick. Once the tapioca flour has done it's work, the blended ingredients will have transformed into a very thick lump. This can then be transferred to an oiled (I use sunflower oil) glass/ceramic bowl, with sufficient oil to submerge the cheese in order to stop it sticking to the bowl as well as keeping the air out and thus preserving it for up to a week in the fridge.

    To use it, I normally slice off a suitable sized lump, put it on a cutting board and then slice that into small strips which I then top the pizza or other dish with. It's predictably a bit messier than just grating mozzarella but when you factor in ethics and health, I'd say it's more than worth it.
    Last edited by Akasha; 21st June 2015 at 18:33.
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote …..It is human nature to talk about one's passion, whatever that may be. In our case, our passion is good health and the ending of suffering, perhaps even the ending of sorrow, so we have to talk, we are compelled to talk…..
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Of all things, why would I feel stupid for posting this here? (granola is a buzzword used by media commentators, to make others look stupid, weak and paltry) This recipe is from The Common Ground restaurant that used to be in Brattleboro VT. It makes a big batch of absolutely yummy food. Really nutritious too, lots of different amino acids in this.

    ps I had a few flies fly in through my open window just now. I just told them in my plain english that they should go back outside, and that if they stayed in here, they'll just get trapped and die. They listened. More and more over the years I've seen that just talking to them, no matter what species they are, works. Use the words that mean what you want to say, and, well, not surprisingly any more, but at first it was. Now I just do it automatically.
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    Last edited by Earthlink; 21st June 2015 at 19:47.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Nice recipe Earthlink ^^^^

    Might I gently suggest trying out sorghum syrup as a replacement for honey? It comes from boiling the cane juice of the sorghum plant, a relative to corn. It is delicious and is rich in iron, potassium, and calcium. Also, it isn't the regurgitated vomit of a sentient being!
    "Rather than love, than fame, than money, give me truth."
    ~Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    The 4 Ways People Rationalize Eating Meat

    By Jesse Singal

    Whatever your personal stance on vegetarianism, it's hard to deny that there's a paradox inherent to eating meat. Most meat-eaters have at least some qualms about hurting or harming animals. Not only do many omnivores have pets, but many of them also would never want to even see the process by which the animals they eat are killed, let alone take part in it themselves. This combination — eating meat while being opposed, in principle, to the acts that are required for meat-eating to take place — suggests that omnivores come up with psychological ways to justify their dietary habits. A new paper in the journal Appetite sheds a bit of new light on this.

    A team led by Jared Piazza, a psychologist at Lancaster University, wanted to find out more about the ways omnivores rationalize their meat consumption. To do so, they jumped off the work of Melanie Joy, the social psychologist and author of the wonderfully titled Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism. Joy introduced the "Three Ns of Justification" for meat-eating. As the authors write:
    These justifications include that eating meat is natural, normal, and necessary, otherwise known as the “Three Ns of Justification” (see Joy, 2010, pp. 96–97). Joy argues that through a recurrent process of socialization people come to believe that eating meat is natural –that eating meat is written in our biology, meat is what we naturally crave, and it is what our species evolved to eat; that eating meat is normal – that it is what most people in civilized society do and what most people expect from us; and that eating meat is necessary – that we need meat for survival or that we need to consume at least some meat to be strong, fully healthy individuals. Joy proposes that the 3Ns are widespread beliefs that are reinforced through various social channels, including family, media, religion, and various private and public organizations. For example, one popular belief related to the necessity of eating meat is the idea that one cannot maintain a diet that contains enough protein without consuming at least some meat. Although scientists, including the American Dietetic Association (ADA), America's leading organization of nutritionists, have released numerous publications showing that this is not the case (see e.g., American Dietetic Association, 2009, Rand et al, 2003 and Young, Pellett, 1994), the belief is persistent.

    For their study, Piazza and his team added a fourth N — one that's a bit obvious in retrospect. Eating meat is "nice." That is — and pardon the complicated academic jargon — hamburgers taste good. The authors think this justification has been ignored in the past because it's so weak-seeming. That is, in most other contexts, you wouldn't justify an otherwise morally problematic act by saying, "But it feels good!" But they suspected it was a common way to justify meat-eating, so they included it.

    Then, it was on to the surveys: The authors ran a bunch of them for this paper, and in the first two they simply asked two samples of survey respondents — 176 UPenn undergrads in the first, 107 American Mechanical Turk workers — to generate three reasons why it's okay to eat meat. The question was asked in an open-ended way that wouldn't tip the respondents off as to the purpose of the survey.



    Rest of article in link below:



    http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/06...re-scienceofus

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    ….and you will get the message….
    Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.

    Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

    On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:
    What you are showing me is fragmented thinking. One doesn’t represent the whole. I do admit that this lady is looking very fit, altough she is veeeery skinny and looks like the wind can blow her of her socks. Sally Fallon looks forse. I don’t admit that is perfect. But our norms are that the skinny one is the most healthy, this also can be a distorted image.
    It is proof that Weston Price visited those people and found them in very envigorated health. That is something that can’t be denied. He looked at the way they lived and this where is conclusions. This is 1000’s of years of knowledge which in my view cant be denied.
    Of course there are stories of monks who lived very long healthy. But their way of living can’t be compared with the bombardement of toxic influences we experience each day. Besides they had very deep knowledge of life.
    Living vegan is an experiment which hasn’t faced the test of time. I think is a dangerous undertaking because it takes a lot to feed the body and mind properly in these times where we are bombarded with chemicals and radation

    In Price's travels- the healthiest people he found were two relatively isolated folk- the Gaelic fisherman islanders and the Dinkas of Africa whose diet consisted of mainly grain and fish, just like the Gaelics whose diet consisted of mainly fish, leeks and oats. It's interesting too that the Blue Zone's of today that have been studied live off similar from the Okinawan's to the Sardinian's to the Ikarian's etc; the Blue Zone's researchers had also concluded that the Loma Lindan's that ate occasional fish lived longer than the one's who hadn't. The issue with fish/seafood today is that it's heavily contaminated with not only heavy metals and pollution but now radiation. I agree our world is toxic and that's where chelation supplements come into place from zeolites to MCP (modified citrus pectin) to algin and clays etc; it's such an important issue. Also remember that animal foods are going to be the foods with the highest level contaminants.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
    Really?
    Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality.
    Its quite tedious hearing all this separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants.
    Get over it, we're all different and all have freedom of choice. I eat a mainly vegan diet (I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows?) I also choose to eat a small amount of organic free range chicken occasionally.
    Lets please just respect each others choices eh?

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    Quote This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
    Really?
    Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality.
    Its quite tedious hearing all this separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants.
    Get over it, we're all different and all have freedom of choice. I eat a mainly vegan diet (I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows?) I also choose to eat a small amount of organic free range chicken occasionally.
    Lets please just respect each others choices eh?

    There are sources of humane eggs and dairy out there (I have some raw vegan friends that were longtime vegans and had to add some eggs and raw dairy) . These come from truly backyard sources where a person keeps a few goats (they don't get killed ever and are hand milked and there is milk freely available to their offspring- the same with hens, backyard hens that lay an abundance of eggs and hens are not killed). Issue is with the mass produced stuff, this includes organics and larger *grassfed* operations~ the animals are separated from their babies, the animals are eventually killed and so on. That's why it is not considered a humane practice.
    Last edited by Elainie; 22nd June 2015 at 04:20.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    Quote This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
    Really?
    Yes, absolutely really. From now on, as I stated in the OP, any issues I have with other threads which are relevant to this thread will be addressed here and only here.

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    …..Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality. Its quite tedious…..
    Firstly, It's not us and them, it's us and us not so long ago.

    Secondly, Avalon is quite a transient community with members coming and going and, while this subject may be becoming tedious to some, to others, this thread is their first opportunity to contribute.
    It should also be worth noting that there are a myriad of threads here which provoke some to vehemently disagree. I find some of the channelling threads more than a little questionable, but as long as they aren't pushing my vegan buttons I'll just move on - and now, as i mentioned earlier, threads that do push such buttons will be dealt with here, not there.

    Now that's not to say I don't invite opposing POVs here. I do, as I'm happy to continue this dialogue with you here and now.

    Regarding:

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    …..I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows
    I spent over a decade, as a vegetarian, under the illusion that my diet was humane simply because I didn't eat meat. I would have loved to have been enlightened sooner to the realities of the egg and dairy industry, so firstly regarding dairy, while beef cattle are simply raised and slaughtered, typically after 2 years, the dairy cow:

    1) is repeatedly raped (they have to be pregnant/postnatal to provide milk - an obvious but often overlooked fact)

    2) repeatedly has its offspring stolen, typically within the first 2 days of the calf's life, to become veal if it's male and another dairy cow if it's female

    3) is milked daily, the results of which lead to mastitis, the persistent, inflammatory reaction of the udder tissue when repeatedly subjected to modern milking technology, a side line being the puss content within milk as a result of the infection. Mastitiis is one of the reasons most cattle are routinely put on regimes of antibiotics from day one, the results being that 80% of antibiotics manufactured today are administered to livestock. And we wonder why they are losing their effectiveness. It's not just because people don't finish their course.

    4) ends up suffering the same fate of slaughter as its beef counterpart.

    Regarding eggs:

    1) most male chicks are killed as soon as they hatch because it is not financially viable to raise them

    2) blanket administration of antibiotics (see above)

    3) in caged / indoor and some free-range operations, hens are routinely debeaked

    4) the chickens will still end up going to slaughter, typically after two years if it is a free range operation but it can be after just one season.

    Check out this simple article here illustrating a number of other issues. Although much of it pertains to factory farming, the slaughter aspect is the same for caged and free-range, at least on commercial operations.


    Regarding:

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    …..separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants…..
    I'm going to assume you were talking about yourself there because I'm pro-vegan not anti (or aniti) and certainly not militant.

    All a bit confusing really.

    I guess this groundhog day type dialogue keeps reincarnating here (and elsewhere) because where some just see a meal, others recognize the injustice and are compelled to act, over and over, as many times as is necessary.
    You, like anyone else, are free to ignore that action. However, if you choose to engage, for example, by telling me to respect those who tell me to just "get over" unnecessary torture, cruelty and slaughter, I'll do my best but my heart and my conscience compels me to oppose such behavior.

    I trust and hope you can understand that and I hope you found this post helpful.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Many years ago I joined a small biodynamic farm share to obtain some raw grass fed dairy. I didn't like what I saw (unhappy cows lining up to be milked via machine). The vibe was so heavy for me I stopped right then and there. Their look in their eyes spoke volumes. I can't imagine visiting one of the larger commercial farms. Must be terrible. As a veg child in 8th grade we had to visit a kosher slaughter house. I fainted and received a bad mark for that class, being told I was being overly dramatic. I think not.

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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I would like to make a contribution.
    I think some of you know this book, others maybe not. I think it's mostly Vegan, but even for meat-eaters there is a treasure of knowledge in this book.

    Andres Moritz - Timeless Secrets of health and rejuvenation, downloadable here: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1610132...juvenation.pdf

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    I would like to make a contribution.
    I think some of you know this book, others maybe not. I think it's mostly Vegan, but even for meat-eaters there is a treasure of knowledge in this book.

    Andres Moritz - Timeless Secrets of health and rejuvenation, downloadable here: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1610132...juvenation.pdf
    Cheers Joey. Just scanned the contents and I'm sure there's gonna be plenty in there to get my teeth into. It ties in nicely with an ayurvedic wave presently flowing through our home too.
    Last edited by Akasha; 22nd June 2015 at 16:47.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    United States Avalon Member Hip Hipnotist's Avatar
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    Default Re: All Things Vegan!

    I became vegetarian then vegan strictly for heart health reasons. However, after the effects of eating real food and developing some healthy, non-toxic brain cells something odd struck me. I looked down at Lily, the cat sleeping soundly on my lap and thought to myself, if I wouldn't eat you then why would I have ever eaten a ( insert your favorite flesh type here )? Is it because a cow is too heavy to sit on my lap? A deer will just get killed by a car so why not eat it first? A lamb is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing? I'd be called a 'chicken' for not eating a chicken? I'd be a 'quack' if I didn't eat duck?

    My thought process/reasoning just did a three-sixty when I stopped consuming animal flesh. Jeez, I'm not even scared of bears anymore. Unless I see one.

    I'll even go further and question why any human NEEDS to consume animal flesh. Yeah, I've seen/heard/read this, that and the other and am still not convinced. ( not that I need to be ) For every pro there's a con so no need to waste your time with so-called facts. This is what I believe. But something tells me that if all the fleshy animals that humans desire to consume all of sudden left the planet those that claim that animal flesh is necessary for a 'healthy being' would not only be healthier but would be here typing this instead of me.

    Actually, many of you are.

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