Controversial Historian Ursula Haverbeck (the 'Nazi Grandma')

[Deega]

Hi, I have read on the controversial ''Before it News'' an also controversial article by the German Author Historian Ursula Haverbeck, she was jailed for her TV presentation (denying Holocaust).

Anyone knows, was this presentation given or it's only a hoax?

If she did the presentation, got jailed, do we have members here knowing about her well-being state?

If she did the presentation, considering the facts presented, wouldn't one consider her a Whistleblower?, a Traitor (by whom classification?)? By Profession, a Historian is bound by Ethics, Equity, Research Protocol on what she published, may she encroached on these principles?, any opinion here on Avalon members living in this Part of the World?

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...y-3167580.html

[syrwong]

This is an unbelievable event. Any confirmation of it from other sources?

[conk]

A world where you cannot simply have an opinion. Amazing. Scary.

[Deega]

Woua!, I was not aware that this lady spent her life digging for Historical Facts, I did a search on the Web, a lot of information there, an avid Activist!

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I hope it's not true in the article that her apartment really was raided by something equivalent to SWAT police.

Can you imagine in the US if it were illegal to question the official story of 9/11 openly, or else your house would be broken into by armed government thugs?

[Ioneo]

From what I've heard it is against the law to express denial of the holocaust in Germany.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by Ioneo (here)
From what I've heard it is against the law to express denial of the holocaust in Germany.

Yes, it is, that's why I say (for Americans at least), imagine if a SWAT team busted into your house in the middle of the night... just because you had the gall to question the government's story about 9/11.

Or in Britain if you questioned 7/7, or in Japan in you questioned Fukushima, a bunch of militarized police busted through your door, destroying it and waking everyone up to start seizing property and arresting people. It would be a nightmare, would it not? And absolutely nothing resembling a free society.

[mosquito]

Posted by bsbray (here)
I hope it's not true in the article that her apartment really was raided by something equivalent to SWAT police.

Can you imagine in the US if it were illegal to question the official story of 9/11 openly, or else your house would be broken into by armed government thugs?

Unless the good people of America take action, SOON, the scenario you mention will no doubt become a fact of life.

Watching the video, I couldn't help but see the parallels between the Holocaust and 911.
(and no, I AM NOT saying that the nazis killed no-one or that Hitler was a jolly good chap) Stand back, observe the way the energy moves, and see the similarities - both events are pivotal in the subsequent geopolitical manouvres and societal mind-programming of their respective times.

[loungelizard]

Hello Deega. May I ask - is the purpose of this thread to discuss the rights and wrongs of criminalising genocide denial, as the law stands in 13 European countries, in an attempt to legislate against hate crime, incitement to violence and racial hatred?

I can't find any confirmation that Ursula Haverbeck has been arrested. She seems to be under investigation - again - for statements she made - again. She's been fined several times before for incitement. She has recently been involved in protests against the trial of Oskar Groening, the former SS officer known as the Accountant of Auschwitz (despite his admission of guilt - interestingly, no Nazi has ever denied the holocaust in the way that she and her ilk do) and will likely be investigated for claims she made there as well.

She's not a historian by profession: she studied education and linguistics decades ago and has, for many years, dedicated her efforts to political activism of the extreme right persuasion. Her husband was in the ranks of leadership in the Nazi party.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Hello Deega. May I ask - is the purpose of this thread to discuss the rights and wrongs of criminalising genocide denial, as the law stands in 13 European countries, in an attempt to legislate against hate crime, incitement to violence and racial hatred?

I can't speak for the OP but the reason something like this was never passed in the US, and would be totally alien to our culture, is because we have traditionally been taught from very young ages that freedom of speech is a very precious right and critical to being able to maintain a fair and open democratic society.

You mention in your post that so-and-so was convicted of such-and-such, and Nazis never denied the Holocaust. That's one side of the discussion, which is allowed in Europe. To respond to that critically would not be allowed, and would be illegal. So you don't have to argue, you're just right by default because of a law prohibiting anyone from even disputing you. This goes for especially for anyone speaking out in public. So how would you know what evidence there isn't on both sides of the debate? You don't have freedom of speech in this regard. You don't have an open society regarding this. So you just wouldn't know.

You can assume you are on the right side of the issue just because European governments have outlawed disputing the "facts" about the situation, but legislators do not dictate what is true and what is not true. They're more often criminals themselves, and spend most of their time lying and distorting the truth. Really this is how most of them make their living.

[Hervé]

...

:zip lips:

... ... ...

PS: Look who's paranoid now!

[Deega]

Thanks Loungelizard, nobody would argue against legislation on hate crime, incitement to violence and racial hatred!

The Second World War happened 70 – 76 years ago, both sides did horrible things, but we have heard a lot on the Victor side, may we hear from the other side, as we know the other side is also people!

I have listened to Mrs Haverbeck Historical presentation, and find it quite interesting!, and in the link, it’s mentioned she had been arrested, that was part of my preoccupation.

Any Society need activists to bring another light to problematic situations.

[justalight]

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts on this post.
For a person living in Germany at the moment it is more than interesting to see what you might think about a law that does not allow to express what you think and this way disable a discussion that might lead into a deeper understanding of history.
Not to speak about the diverse options to play with and abuse this law to shut up people who are not even talking about the third reich. A friend of mine published a well known book on the NWO back in the 90ies, guess what happened ... it was banned based on this law.

I wish to raise a question: Does it help a nation to learn from the past if you are scared even to talk about certain parts of history?

Many people are scared by this law, they are scared as they think someone could abuse this law to threaten them. The result is that many people prefer not even to talk about everything that had happened.

Sorry for my unprecise words as I am not an english native speaker and I miss many words to express better what I think.
This law was abused far too many times to shut up people. I wish you would understand the meaning of this law to the people here, it kills the process of working to understand the past more than it helps anyone.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by no questions (here)
A friend of mine published a well known book on the NWO back in the 90ies, guess what happened ... it was banned based on this law.

This is exactly why freedom of speech and freedom of press are both critical for any society to remain free.

I wish to raise a question: Does it help a nation to learn from the past if you are scared even to talk about certain parts of history?

Of course not, and let's look at it another way.

Let's say that a new study was done of data that had not been looked at in any depth before, but it reveals that actually more people may have died during the Holocaust than originally thought. If this is published, will it be censored? Probably not, but this is a conceivably scenario.

Now let's say that the same study looks at this previously unscrutinized data and, instead, it shows that there were actually some significant number less people killed during the Holocaust. Of course the Holocaust would still be a tragedy, but the known facts of the situation would be adjusted some for historians. But no, this would be illegal under law.

Inciting riots would be one thing, but to ban this type of discussion even within academia, and its apparent blanket application to ban unrelated materials (from "no questions"), just shows the true intent of this kind of law. It is exactly what someone like George Orwell would expect.

[justalight]

Thank you bsbray. Precisely. Everything you just said is true.

Let's say that a new study was done of data that had not been looked at in any depth before, but it reveals that actually more people may have died during the Holocaust than originally thought. If this is published, will it be censored?

Based on this law: Yes, even this study must be banned.

To mention again the book of my friend on the NWO. I am sure that at least 50% of the avalon members have heard about it, read it or even have a digital copy of it on their computer. Even to own a copy of it or to talk about it falls under this law as it was banned by abuse of this law. So you better don´t bring it here or you will be in trouble.

[Deega]

Hey thanks No Question, you're living the law, well, the Government don't allow freedom of expression, don't allow Historical Truth be made, hmm! This freezing of Historical Events will be lifted at one point or another, then!, the people will be made aware of what exactly happened, and then, the honour of knowing will prevailed.

a law that does not allow to express what you think and this way disable a discussion that might lead into a deeper understanding of history.

This assertion is very true.

Does it help a nation to learn from the past if you are scared even to talk about certain parts of history?

This Historical Part of War is sanctioned, IMHO, it's an insult on the people living this law (being not able to know the True Facts of War). And, so it seems that Mrs Haverbeck was inciting Historical Facts to be revealed, she was then trying to take a step forward in people reaching Freedom of expression!

[Violet]

Posted by Ioneo (here)
From what I've heard it is against the law to express denial of the holocaust in Germany.

In Belgium too.

No questions, do you think there's a link between taking away this possibility to question a part of history and the threat of neo-nazism in Germany?

[justalight]

I can not agree Violet, my family is half american and half german and I was raised in both cultural environments. The right of free speach enables people to discuss, to learn and to change their mind eventually. Prohibiting free speach for whatever reason raises only one question: Cui Bono?

Think about if banning free speach on racism or banning free speach on the Ku Klux Klan or on whatever perverse criminal violence will change the attitude or the thinking of certain people.

[Deega]

The right of free speach enables people to discuss, to learn and to change their mind eventually. Prohibiting free speach for whatever reason raises only one question: Cui Bono?

Yes, we do know that the Financial World was behind the two WWs, and we also know who are the Actors behind the Financial World, but I guess we can't do much about it!, time will tell.

I don't know if people are aware of the Documentary ''Adolf Hitler, The Greatest Story Never Told'', 27 parts, by author Dennis Wise. IF the content is authentic, it's another version of what happened!

[loungelizard]

@ Deega: I apologise if it seems I'm smothering your thread - we have a really bad internet connection here, and can only get online a few times every day. So I have to take advantage of those moments to post all my thoughts in one go.

Denial of genocide and crimes against humanity is not a noble pursuit undertaken by brave whistle-blowing, truth-speaking warriors. Whether it refers to crimes committed in Rwanda, Armenia, Darfu, Ukraine, the Balkans, the Soviet Union, Equatorial Guinea, Ukraine, Bangladesh, Iraq, Japan, Cambodia, Burundi, China, Namibia, Turkey, Guatemala, Indonesia, the Congo, occupied Europe (this list is not exhaustive)....the tactics are universal, and the aim is to always to absolve the perpetrator of any guilt and criminal actions by throwing up a murky smokescreen of denial.

No mass murder means there are no mass murderers. The objective is to make the perpetrators appear innocent and the victims, guilty.

For the record, I don't think it's a good idea that countries legislate against genocide denial: I think it's self defeating. Freedom of speech is a wonderful ideal, and I have great respect for the countries in the world who have made the difficult decision to uphold freedom of speech above everything else; I'm fortunate enough to live in such a country.

But its important to try to understand the decision taken by a few countries – many of which were directly involved in or affected by the perpetrated atrocities of the National Socialist Party and/or Communism – to attempt to deal with hate crime through legislation. If free speech is silencing voices and historical fact – and has the potential to incite violence – should it still be free?

If we are going to refer to the laws on holocaust denial, it seems right that we should read those laws first. If we do actually read them, we won't find anything about criminalising discussion.  Nothing about criminalising questioning...nothing about criminalising research and investigation...nothing about sharing and disseminating evidence...nothing about criminalising privately expressed opinions...

In European countries, the word Holocaust doesn't even appear in these laws. “Crimes against humanity” and “genocide” do.