+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: The essence of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

  1. Link to Post #1
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default The essence of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    There are several memes popular in the alternative media attempting to explain what is money and what are the fundamental flaws with our current monetary system.

    For example, some of these popular memes are:
    • The banks just create money out of nothing when they lend it.
    • It's the exponential growth of compounded interest that dooms the system to overwhelming debt.
    • Paper (fiat) money is not real; gold and silver are.
    • Our birth certificates are used, directly and explicitly, but covertly, as backing for more national debt.
    • Gold is the only currency which has no liability attached to it.
    These each have an element of truth to them, but I would claim that these memes are allowed to persist, even covertly perpetuated by the bastards in power, because they each miss the mark in some critical way, and are easily dismissed as tinfoil hat nonsense to most listeners.

    The essential element:
    The Banksters have a virtual monopoly on exchanging present value with promised value.
    One obvious way that the Banksters exercise this monopoly is in the granting of loans - lending out money (present value) in exchange for promissory notes (promised value.)

    Another way they exercise this monopoly is in the funding of wars - fight now, using weapons and armies we funded with our lending, in exchange for some promised peace in the future.

    Yet other ways include socialism - government funded promises of future health, retirement, and other social benefits in exchange for some votes or taxes or greater acceptance of government control now.

    Yet another way is higher education - take out student loans now in return for the promise of a ticket to the middle class and a better life later on.

    Insurance policies and retirement funds are yet other such ways, as are the building up of excess industrial capacity and infrastructure (ask China about that one.)

    The essential mechanism is a pump and dump. Pump up the expectations more than can be realized, with credit friendly terms (got a pulse ... can you fog this mirror ... sure you can have this loan), and then tighten credit, call in loans, and yank (aka steal) the credit of key institutions (as with Lehman Brothers in September 2008) and governments (as with Greece in the present) in as a means to foreclose or repossess or outright steal property, in the trillions and hundreds of trillions of dollars worth, world wide.

    The interest on debt is not the essential element of this scheme. Even if all debt were interest free, this pump and dump scheme, based on manipulating the ease of exchanging present value with future promises, would continue to work to enslave humanity.

    That our money is paper fiat money rather than gold and silver mined from the bowels of the earth is not the essential element of this scheme. The Banksters ran these same schemes when the world used precious metals for money; though the ease of pushing 1's and 0's around on a computer screen no doubt enables them to construct more elaborate variations of these pump and dump schemes.

    As but one more example, Social Security, a US Federal government retirement scheme, was easy for people to accept when there were 8 or 10 of us baby-boomers, earning more than our ancestors ever dreamed of earning, paying for every 1 retired senior citizen, who had grown up in the Great Depression and could get by on next to nothing for income. But Social Security won't work so well when there is only 1 or 2 young workers, saddled with student loan debt, getting by on a couple of low wage part time service sector jobs, for every 1 retired baby boomer, expecting to continue to live a middle class life. The population and economic demographics of this were obvious at least as far back as the 1950's, and to the astute observer, should have been obvious even at the very birth of Social Security, back in the 1930's. It's yet another grand pump and dump scheme, spanning the better part of a century.

    I joke to my son - he'd better start working harder - he's going to have to pay half my Social Security income, and I expect to continue to enjoy life. He'll have to work harder to do this than I did; I only had to pay perhaps 1/8-th of my mother's Social Security income, and she could pinch a penny until it squealed. For some reason, my son never laughs at this joke.

    The near monopoly on the exchange of present value for promised value, in diverse forms ... that is a key point of leverage that the Banksters and their ilk have obtained over human civilization.
    Last edited by Sierra; 23rd July 2015 at 12:13.

  2. The Following 28 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), Billy (22nd July 2015), Bingo (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Earthlink (22nd July 2015), Ernie Nemeth (22nd July 2015), gripreaper (22nd July 2015), Hawkwind (22nd July 2015), Jake (22nd July 2015), justntime2learn (22nd July 2015), lake (6th August 2015), lucidity (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Mike (22nd July 2015), MorningSong (22nd July 2015), Muzz (22nd July 2015), naste.de.lumina (22nd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), T Smith (22nd July 2015), Teti75 (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  3. Link to Post #2
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks
    5,985
    Thanked 4,653 times in 999 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    The key here, I think, is the banksters also enjoy a monopoly on the promised value, i.e., that which is promised is ever sought by the enslaved class to satisfy the indebtedness of the present value. The promised value has to be procured from somewhere as we move into the present. That somewhere is always future promised value. Thus we are always chasing after present value in exchange for promised value, ad infinitum.

    The result, of course, is bondage and enslavement. The whole dynamic kind of reminds me of a calculus function where no matter what the present value we input, we can never achieve the limit of promised value.

  4. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to T Smith For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Jake (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  5. Link to Post #3
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks
    5,985
    Thanked 4,653 times in 999 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Put another way:

    SLAVE (to bank): If you give me $10 today I promise to pay you $11 tomorrow.

    BANK: Okay. Sounds like a good deal. I accept your promise. Let me create $10.00 for you. Here you go.

    SLAVE: WOO HOO! WOO HOO! I get to play with $10 for a full day!

    (Tomorrow comes... slave assesses his ability to deliver on his promise. He beholds the $10 in his hands and figures he can repay to the bank, but quickly realizes he has promised something impossible to conjure, namely the $1 on top of the $10. How does the slave give the bank back something that does not yet exist? How can the slave possibly give an additional dollar to the bank when there are only $10 dollars to begin with?

    The slave ponders this dilemma. Ah! Ha! I will ask the bank!, and thus, as a cat chasing its tail, he enters into a new dialog with the bank:

    SLAVE (to bank): If you give me $1.00 today, I promise to pay you $1.10 tomorrow.

    BANK: Okay. Sounds like a good deal. I accept your promise. Let me create $1.00 for you. Here you go.

    (Tomorrow comes... slave assesses his ability to deliver on his promise. He beholds the $1 in his hands and figures he can easily give it back to the bank, but quickly realizes he has promised something impossible to conjure, namely the $.10 on top of the $1.00 How does the slave give the bank back something that does not yet exist? How can the slave possibly give $.10 to the bank when there are only $11 dollars to begin with?

    And so on and so forth, ad infinitum.

  6. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to T Smith For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), conk (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), lake (6th August 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), risveglio (27th July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  7. Link to Post #4
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    The key here, I think, is the banksters also enjoy a monopoly on the promised value, i.e., that which is promised is ever sought by the enslaved class to satisfy the indebtedness of the present value.
    Sometimes ... but not always. When an individual, business or government takes out a loan, it is they who hold the promised value, their future income, which falls short of what is necessary to make the debt payments after the debt has been piled sufficiently high, and the economic activity then dumped.

  8. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), risveglio (27th July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), T Smith (22nd July 2015)

  9. Link to Post #5
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Put another way:

    ... How can the slave possibly give an additional dollar to the bank when there are only $10 dollars to begin with? ...

    And so on and so forth, ad infinitum.
    This is the classic argument against interest bearing debt ... it compounds exponentially.

    The primary point of my opening post is that even if debt never bore any interest, the pump and dump schemes played by the Banksters, exchanging present and promised value back and forth, would still provide them with a powerful means of manipulating humanity.

    The essence of our problem is not the interest ... it is the virtual monopoly that the Banksters have on exchanging present and promised value back and forth, which offers them a seemingly unlimited variety of means for ratcheting up their control over humanity (the billions of individuals) and human civilization (their various organizations and collectives.)

  10. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Fiberglut (22nd July 2015), lake (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), risveglio (27th July 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), T Smith (22nd July 2015)

  11. Link to Post #6
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    8th May 2011
    Location
    Arizona
    Age
    47
    Posts
    3,931
    Thanks
    27,040
    Thanked 20,800 times in 3,643 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Mr. Cow sir, what of the petrol dollar, the idea that our currency is backed by natural resources?
    And then there is the Ben Fulford take that the USA blackmails and threatens countries like Japan to buy it's debt or else?
    And then there is the not so crazy idea that our secret space fleet as reported by Gary Mckinnon is bringing something of value back to the US, could be mined ore, could be helium 3.

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to DNA For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), risveglio (27th July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015)

  13. Link to Post #7
    United States Avalon Member mgray's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th March 2010
    Location
    NYC suburb
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,204
    Thanks
    2,509
    Thanked 9,937 times in 1,143 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Thanks for the OP Paul, very interesting in its premise.

    But wouldn't you say that humans operate on the idea of "exchanging present value with promised value" in many other arenas?

    Why would you get married? Have children? Take a new job? You would not do these things unless you thought down the road life would be better than it is now.

    So bankers are exploiting code that is in the factory settings of our operating system, so to speak and are not the only ones with a virtual monopoly exchanging present and promised value.

    Just a thought.
    When in doubt, do the next right thing.
    My blog: http://grayseconomy.com

  14. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to mgray For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  15. Link to Post #8
    United States Avalon Member idiit's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd March 2015
    Age
    65
    Posts
    679
    Thanks
    660
    Thanked 2,189 times in 572 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    fiat currency is one layer of the enslavement onion.

  16. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to idiit For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015)

  17. Link to Post #9
    Great Britain Avalon Member Baby Steps's Avatar
    Join Date
    29th August 2014
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,398
    Thanks
    14,880
    Thanked 6,348 times in 1,253 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    FACETS OF THE FINANCIAL TYRANNY

    As we all know, money lending can be an aggressive business aimed at acquiring assets from the bankrupt, but any lender has to take into account the possibility of bad debt-ie they do not get back what they have leant. When you look at marginal borrowers, ie those who are struggling to repay, and may not have the assets to compensate the lender, I do not think lenders like lending to them as there is a high likelihood of financial losses. So at the National level, and many governments would be seen as a marginal borrower, I do not think that for example Greece is a victim of predatory lending – as far as ASSETS are concerned. Greece’s lenders are looking at a loss, whatever assets they manage to recover- such as Government buildings and other publicly owned assets, that will be taken. Looking at the World Bank & IMF, the tyranny is more to do with interest that these countries are forced to pay, and the subversive influence that a lender can exert, by threatening to call in loans. Argentina has recently been subjected to pure vindictiveness in this regard:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ltures-economy

    TYRANNY 1 – Money as debt.
    The cost to print a Federal Note is 2.3c. This money is fiat, meaning it has no inherent worth. It is printed or created electronically, then leant to the US government at interest on its face value. The Fed is a privately owned institution. Where is the justice in charging interest on something with no inherent value? This is the crime of usury. In most countries there is a veil of secrecy and obfuscation over who owns and controls the central bank – and benefits from the interest – but in the case of UK and probably almost everywhere else it is NOT the taxpayer.
    Usury was banned in Europe until the middle ages, and is banned under Islamic banking, a policy which I believe was divinely inspired. The alternative to straight interest is profit share, and this is how the burgeoning Islamic banking industry in London is working.

    In the video at the bottom Karen Hudes set out her view that usury is the core of the current tyranny. It acts as a constant sweeping mechanism for the Elite to mop up real assets(wealth created by all the ordinary people). The rich do not hold that much cash- an asset who’s value is eroded by inflation. They would not look at anything returning under 8%. They prefer land, commercial enterprises, antiques, art etc.
    The huge holdings they have ensure an on-going control.

    http://www.tax-freedom.com/ta24000.htm

    TYRANNY 2 – Fractional Reserve Banking
    The alternative media have not quite got this right in my view. As I understand it, banks are given a ratio , or multiple of the amount that is deposited with them, that they are allowed to loan out- ie they lend more than they have. So what David Icke et al say- that banks just create money by typing a number onto a computer is correct. I quizzed an insider about this here in the UK and was told that when a loan is collected that ‘money’ is then passed to the central bank.
    So the entries made in the books of the bank when lending electronically created money are:
    Debit: Asset: Loan to customer
    Credit: Liability: Central Bank.
    So the lender pays the money it collects , after keeping the interest element, over to the central bank, where presumably the number is then deleted off the computer screen.
    So suppose a bank is allowed to lend out at a ratio of 10:1 it would work as follows;
    Fred Bloggs deposits £10,000. The bank pays him 1.5% interest per annum : £150
    Once the bank gets the £10k in it is allowed to lend out £100k at whatever interest rate it can get on the open market- so in this case the bank lends £100k to a mortgage customer at 4%- an annual interest income of £4,000 as compared to a cost of £150. Now although this is not a license to print money, it is obviously very profitable.
    However, if the Mortgage loan becomes a bad debt, that bank would still have to pay the remaining balance that it owed over to the Central Bank. It would repossess and sell the house, and any loss would be taken in the bank’s accounts.


    TYRANNY 3 – Bank Bail outs

    We the people have borrowed to bail out banks. If a bank makes a bad investment and goes bust this should be a matter for the shareholders. This is a basic Free Market tenet. The Banks blackmailed government to secure bail outs. Bad USA Mortgage debt was laundered into triple A in New York & London. The banks then used fear of a wider collapse to force Governments to pay bail outs. It makes me think of a tumour that screams- ‘Don’t cut me out! You will die of blood loss!’


    TYRANNY 4- Global Pheonix Fiat Currency

    We are in a period of historically low interest rates. The four ‘kill shots’ that can be engineered are:
    - Interest rates go up on national debts, forcing harsh austerity. In many countries this will not be accepted by the populus-governmental collapse follows.
    - World Bank & IMF get into difficulties if there are any large National Debt defaults-China may not help.
    - General Dollar collapse may be a shock too large for the Global economy to survive in its current form.
    - Any large national debt defaults – not Greece, but perhaps Italy, could set off a domino collapse amongst the Banks.
    Interestingly, the countries who are insulated from this chaos are the ones that the MSM keeps telling us are our enemies!
    When/if the calamity occurs, they will try to launch a global Fiat currency, again from a privately owned source.

    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

  18. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Baby Steps For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  19. Link to Post #10
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    Mr. Cow sir, what of the petrol dollar, the idea that our currency is backed by natural resources?
    That is another excellent example of my thesis - binding the US Dollar system to the dominant energy source presently in use. Immense resources are expended, and immense wealth and power, or least adequate energy supplies, anticipated in the future, all quite tightly bound to the major financial institutions and to the Anglo-American empire, all denominated, until recently (unless you wanted US Air Force bombers flying over your capital city) in US Dollars.

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    And then there is the Ben Fulford take that the USA blackmails and threatens countries like Japan to buy it's debt or else?
    I seldom know what to make of Fulford -- he provides what I suspect is one of the more "exotic" blends of insight, distraction and deceit out there - but I would be quite willing to accept that the US has blackmailed Japan and other countries to buy its debt. As the steaming pile of personal, corporate and government debt and other (many other) promises to pay in the future grows far, far, faaar beyond any possibility of being redeemed at the promised value in real goods and services, increasingly desperate means are employed to keep that pile from exploding into smithereens ... well ... employed to delay and control the eventual timing and sequencing of that inevitable explosion.

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    And then there is the not so crazy idea that our secret space fleet as reported by Gary Mckinnon is bringing something of value back to the US, could be mined ore, could be helium 3.
    This might be one of the future connections between present value (the means to mine space) and promised value (future returns of immense energy) that I anticipate will unfold on a grander scale, perhaps after the current Anglo-America-Dollar hegemony self-destructs. Recall that the seeds of the Petro-Dollar were visible in the Saudi desert, prior to World War II, in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The Petro-Dollar would not ascend to the throne as the dominant monetary unit for another 35 years, with the 1973 Oil Crisis, involving the formation of OPEC, gas lines in the US, and Nixon's Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger.
    Last edited by Paul; 22nd July 2015 at 17:38.

  20. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015)

  21. Link to Post #11
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by mgray (here)
    But wouldn't you say that humans operate on the idea of "exchanging present value with promised value" in many other arenas?

    Why would you get married? Have children? Take a new job? You would not do these things unless you thought down the road life would be better than it is now.

    So bankers are exploiting code that is in the factory settings of our operating system, so to speak and are not the only ones with a virtual monopoly exchanging present and promised value.

    Just a thought.
    Absolutely. Plants form seeds, reptiles eggs, beavers dams, birds nests, ants tunnels, mammals spend years raising their young, deciduous trees protect their reservoir of "food" in their roots during the cold winters, ...

    An interesting example involving seeds and farmers. For thousands of years, farmers have known to put aside some seeds from each years crop, in order to sow next years crop. There are stories of people in rural villages literally starving to death, even as they still had edible seeds saved away, because they held those seeds in such high value.

    But now, in many places around the world, farmers are being force into a system where they must borrow money each year, to purchase seeds from Monsanto, which can not be used to make viable seeds for next year's crop. This yet another example, of many, in which the monopoly of Bankster controlled debt-money and other such financial (and entwined) interests is further entangled with the fundamental means of preserving and perpetuating humanity and human civilization.

    Excellent thought.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by idiit (here)
    fiat currency is one layer of the enslavement onion.
    One element, one layer - yes.

    But not the essential element, in my view. The "fiat" nature of our currency (government dictated use) is but one aspect of this system, and not, in the view of my opening post, the central aspect.

  22. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), mgray (23rd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015)

  23. Link to Post #12
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    FACETS OF THE FINANCIAL TYRANNY
    ...

    TYRANNY 1 – Money as debt.
    ...

    TYRANNY 2 – Fractional Reserve Banking
    ...

    TYRANNY 3 – Bank Bail outs
    ...

    TYRANNY 4- Global Pheonix Fiat Currency
    ...
    Yes - another way to list some of the key memes that are ordinarily used to explain our monetary system and its inherent flaws.

    I am suggesting that the central, core, essential construct behind these memes is the increasing monopolization of the exchange of present value and future promises.

    One might even see such a monopolization in quite another form in earlier (and still continuing to this day for many people) dominance of civilization by religions that promised future heavens (or virgins or whatever) for present day sacrifices.

  24. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), RunningDeer (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015)

  25. Link to Post #13
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    19th February 2015
    Age
    63
    Posts
    2,202
    Thanks
    7,544
    Thanked 9,537 times in 1,984 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Yes - another way to list some of the key memes that are ordinarily used to explain our monetary system and its inherent flaws.

    I am suggesting that the central, core, essential construct behind these memes is the increasing monopolization of the exchange of present value and future promises.

    One might even see such a monopolization in quite another form in earlier (and still continuing to this day for many people) dominance of civilization by religions that promised future heavens (or virgins or whatever) for present day sacrifices.
    Would I be very mistaken to say that by analogy, its like more and more, we all "own our souls to the company store"?
    Last edited by Paul; 22nd July 2015 at 18:23. Reason: fix video linkage, trim nested quoting

  26. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Selkie For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Jesse (6th August 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), Paul (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015), The Alley Cat (22nd July 2015)

  27. Link to Post #14
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote Posted by Silkie (here)
    Would I be very mistaken to say that by analogy, its like more and more, we all "own our souls to the company store"?
    Absolutely, Silkie ... I had a mind to post that very song in this thread myself ... one of my all time favorites.

    Here's an earlier version, sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford, that reached number one in the Billboard charts in 1955:


    Here's the lyrics to this 1946 classic, written and first recorded by Merle Travis:

    Some people say a man is made outta mud
    A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
    Muscle and blood and skin and bones
    A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

    You load sixteen tons, what do you get
    Another day older and deeper in debt
    Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
    I owe my soul to the company store

    I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
    I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
    I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
    And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

    You load sixteen tons, what do you get
    Another day older and deeper in debt
    Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
    I owe my soul to the company store

    I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
    Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
    I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
    Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

    You load sixteen tons, what do you get
    Another day older and deeper in debt
    Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
    I owe my soul to the company store

    If you see me comin', better step aside
    A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
    One fist of iron, the other of steel
    If the right one don't a-get you
    Then the left one will

    You load sixteen tons, what do you get
    Another day older and deeper in debt
    Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
    I owe my soul to the company store
    Last edited by Paul; 22nd July 2015 at 18:24.

  28. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), eaglespirit (22nd July 2015), Nasu (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015)

  29. Link to Post #15
    United States Avalon Member idiit's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd March 2015
    Age
    65
    Posts
    679
    Thanks
    660
    Thanked 2,189 times in 572 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Quote There are several memes popular in the alternative media attempting to explain what is money and what are the fundamental flaws with our current monetary system.
    i'm a pig. I have a pig for an avatar. since i'm a self confessed pig I find the following to be amusing. it's not my fault. I didn't do it.


    Quote How scientists taught monkeys the concept of money. Not long after, the first prostitute monkey appeared

    Read more: http://www.zmescience.com/research/h...#ixzz3geHcCZ2W
    ^ true story. other links to same topic:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/ma...ness.html?_r=0

    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the...le_profession/

    the power of money as a medium of exchange hinges on the concept of scarcity. if something is abundant there is no reason to "exchange".

    according to the ed's there is no scarcity of anything necessary for survival on earth. the would be enslavers have made common items necessary to a decent life scarce, and then make us work like dogs for a few scraps of fiat. we then exchange this fiat for items we need. enslavement.

    meanwhile, back at the virtual printing press the debt slave masters create $trillions out of thin air ( debt based bonds, qe, tarp,....) and allow themselves to be paid interest$ on this debt they created with our signatory promise to "make the debt good". they know this debt with interest can never be paid back. they then demand real physical assets from the bug caught in the spider's web until the bug is sucked dry and discarded as useless to any self respecting parasite. Greece is the latest bug.

    without the illusion of scarcity the whole ponzi scam wouldn't work. the buyer using the fiat would just go get some for themselves. no debt. no money.

    according to the ed threads lots of human dna is being traded galactically for other rare, valuable stuff like advanced technology. again, it's the scarcity of something highly desired that determines that item's perceived value.

    scarcity is the essence. scarcity of something necessary makes it valuable. what/how it is traded for depends on what system you are in.

    http://www.zmescience.com/research/h...nkey-appeared/


    when women realized how crazed men can get for sex.......
    Last edited by idiit; 22nd July 2015 at 19:27.

  30. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to idiit For This Post:

    Baby Steps (22nd July 2015), DNA (22nd July 2015), lake (6th August 2015), Meggings (22nd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015)

  31. Link to Post #16
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    71
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,166 times in 20,634 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Jim Willie, of GoldenJackass.com, has a quote in this month's subscription newsletter that reflects some of what I suggesting in this thread, and states it more clearly and accurately than I have:

    =========
    "To save [farm output] is completely natural. By that I mean saving is part of nature. Dogs bury their bones. Squirrels hoard nuts. Even plants set aside some excess solar energy for a rainy day by producing and storing sugar.

    For us humans, agriculture was our earliest form of savings, and it was the key ingredient to civilization. With a vast pool of food savings at his disposal, early man could put down roots and build societies without having to worry about where the next meal would come from. It was this sense of savings that formed the dividing line between primitive man and civilized man.

    This reminds me of that old criticism about gold being a barbarous relic. John Maynard Keynes first coined the term when he denounced the gold standard, and Paul Krugman has echoed this sentiment in our own time. Both men are champions of government spending and the inexhaustible creation of paper money. It is a curious statement, though, given that gold is an acknowledged form of savings. Even governments and central banks around the world continue to hold gold as part of their official reserves. Owning gold is saving, which by definition is civilized, not barbarous.

    Debt, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. It is a lack of savings that shows a complete disregard for the future. It is the modern equivalent of gorging on some wild beast with no thought to tomorrow's meal, or in this case, no thought of tomorrow's generation.

    Debt is the barbarous relic, not gold. Governments are up to their eyeballs in it, continuing to engage in this primitive, uncivilized behavior with wanton abandon. Do not expect them to change their ways. Our society awards our most respected prizes for intellectual achievement to faux-scientists who encourage these barbarous acts. They create complex mathematical models, proving why our neanderthal governments should print more money, borrow more debt, and stage fake alien invasions to boost the economy.

    No doubt future anthropologists will find this to be a curious and savage system."
    ~ the Sovereign Man
    =========

    The fundamental distinction which the above quote makes clear, which my words here have not made clear, is that debt, unlike real savings, is used to fund debt money, and is based on a promised extraction of future goods and services, labor and resources, rather than the setting aside of such for use in the future. It is essentially negative savings ... we have less in the future because we promised some of that future to the Banksters. With real savings, one has more in the future, saved up from the past.

  32. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    Baby Steps (12th August 2015), Bill Ryan (22nd July 2015), lake (6th August 2015), Meggings (22nd July 2015), Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (22nd July 2015), Sierra (22nd July 2015)

  33. Link to Post #17
    Canada Deactivated
    Join Date
    17th September 2014
    Posts
    1,157
    Thanks
    3,894
    Thanked 8,273 times in 1,132 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Further to Idiit's words: "this debt they created with our signatory promise to "make the debt good". they know this debt with interest can never be paid back. they then demand real physical assets from the bug caught in the spider's web until the bug is sucked dry and discarded as useless to any self respecting parasite. Greece is the latest bug."

    I add this picture of today:
    Attachment 30633

    By the way, I thought these words were most telling in the article Idiit posted about teaching monkeys about money:

    "It’s exactly these selfish desires that they tried to exploit and experiment with great success after teaching capuchins to buy grapes, apples and Jell-O."
    Last edited by Meggings; 22nd July 2015 at 23:50.

  34. Link to Post #18
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    61
    Posts
    3,541
    Thanks
    15,171
    Thanked 20,764 times in 3,306 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    I've been thinking that part of the problem is the social contract of the 40 hour work week. By having a set amount of time one must work also plays into the hands of the financial types. They can set prices accordingly because they can anticipate the average amount of discretionary funds per household and thereby leverage the price of commodities.

    Also, another little trick that is often not spoken of is the fact that prices are set so that the lowest 30% cannot afford to pay. This is the same 30% that have no credit so they are left with no way to purchase except to save the funds directly from their paychecks - and most of us know how hard that can be.

    Another thing with credit is that it is once removed from reality so people are very cavalier with lines of credit - like that money is free. Here I am thinking about house buying where people offer huge sums over and above the asking price as if they were rich.

    As prices continue their upward trend, more and more people fall out the bottom end, which erodes the middle class. If they do manage to buy a home they have little money left for other purchases. Thus the term "house poor".

    For example, I bought a house for cash twenty years ago by saving for less than two years (my spouse and I, that is). Can't do that anymore...
    Forget about it

  35. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    Selene (23rd July 2015), Selkie (23rd July 2015)

  36. Link to Post #19
    Deactivated
    Join Date
    2nd June 2013
    Location
    Small town Ontario
    Age
    55
    Posts
    731
    Thanks
    1,143
    Thanked 2,500 times in 572 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    Yeah, and when my father built our house, he did a bunch of work himself, and land and everything included it cost him 10 grand. It's worth 400K or more today, that's insane, especially considering wages have been pretty flat line all while productivity has gone way up. Thomas Jefferson said banksters were more of a threat than standing armies.

    So, what is to be done about it? Regional currencies?

  37. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Earthlink For This Post:

    Baby Steps (12th August 2015), Ernie Nemeth (23rd July 2015), peterpam (6th August 2015), Selkie (23rd July 2015)

  38. Link to Post #20
    United States Avalon Member mgray's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th March 2010
    Location
    NYC suburb
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,204
    Thanks
    2,509
    Thanked 9,937 times in 1,143 posts

    Default Re: The essense of debt money: Banks have exclusive license to interchange value for promises

    The issuing of debt is not hard work. It's quite easy in fact. Banks electronically place cash in an account with a few keystrokes.

    Saving is hard and therefore not something that can be done by most people.

    Is it any wonder that as the baby boom generation came into more powerful positions, the me generation began ringing up debt, since they wanted it all and right away. Not only in Washington, but in their personal lives.

    Household debt exploded in the 1980s compared with generations past.
    And now we and our children are here to pay for it.
    When in doubt, do the next right thing.
    My blog: http://grayseconomy.com

  39. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to mgray For This Post:

    Baby Steps (12th August 2015), Ernie Nemeth (23rd July 2015), Michelle Marie (6th August 2015), Selkie (24th July 2015)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts