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Thread: Enlightenment and related matters.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    One of the challenges is that through following and applying spiritual teachings life becomes very easy-- compare to what went on before-- so the temptation is to just rest a while there.
    Haven't really experienced that yet Chris, as I get a swift kick in the rear just temporarily stepping off the path for a quick wee in the bushes... Time to contact my union representative.(LOL)
    Quick story: Knew a guy back East about 1993, a parolee, who was trying to get his life back in line. Anyway, got a job as a trucker, and while out on a delivery, developed a full bladder and since he was nowhere near a rest stop, pulled over to use the bushes on the side of the road. Cop comes along, busts him for indecency, and so back to the Big House he goes, for parole violation.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)

    Quick story: Knew a guy back East about 1993, a parolee, who was trying to get his life back in line. Anyway, got a job as a trucker, and while out on a delivery, developed a full bladder and since he was nowhere near a rest stop, pulled over to use the bushes on the side of the road. Cop comes along, busts him for indecency, and so back to the Big House he goes, for parole violation.
    And let me guess Bob, at the moment of arrest he became enlightened, like in the old cutting off of fingers and arms Zen stories I remember Alan Watts telling?

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    It's times like that an empty water bottle comes in handy,
    it seems the system is designed to keep a man down.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by another bob (here)

    Quick story: Knew a guy back East about 1993, a parolee, who was trying to get his life back in line. Anyway, got a job as a trucker, and while out on a delivery, developed a full bladder and since he was nowhere near a rest stop, pulled over to use the bushes on the side of the road. Cop comes along, busts him for indecency, and so back to the Big House he goes, for parole violation.
    And let me guess Bob, at the moment of arrest he became enlightened, like in the old cutting off of fingers and arms Zen stories I remember Alan Watts telling?

    Well, synchronistically, and since we're on the topic, and since Alan Watts was a Brit:

    pissed [pɪst]
    adj
    1. Brit, Austral, and NZ slang intoxicated; drunk


    Alan died of liver failure, having spent a good portion of his latter days, "pissed"

    AFAIK, neither he nor the trucker attained anything but the ripening/fruition of certain causes and conditions.



    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
    It's times like that an empty water bottle comes in handy(
    I used to do a fair bit of travelling, and wouldn't leave home without one tucked under the seat.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    Quote Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
    It's times like that an empty water bottle comes in handy
    I used to do a fair bit of travelling, and wouldn't leave home without one tucked under the seat.
    I still do, a gallon milk jug. (LOL) And sorry for this little derailment Chris...
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 15th January 2013 at 23:40.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Derailment is to be preferred to stagnation Fred.
    Anything that brings good positive energy to the thread is welcomed.

    Now when you want enlightenment as much as you wanted that pee--- it will happen.

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 16th January 2013 at 00:06.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Derailment is to be preferred to stagnation Fred.
    Anything that brings good positive energy to the thread is welcomed.

    Now when you want enlightenment as much as you wanted that pee--- it will happen.

    Chris
    Thanks for the good deep belly laugh Chris, that's always most welcome my friend! Which of course not so coincidentially brings to mind: Do we ever feel more truly free, as when we are laughing? Tears of joy come to mind, as well as to the corners of my eyes just now thinking about it.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    The hardware of the computer is unaffected by the software.
    That's from a talk by David Hawkins

    Basically he is saying that the self is innocent but runs programmed by software (conditioning etc)
    Garbage in garbage out.
    So the more time we spend with that which is uplifting the better.

    Fly with the crows you get shot with the crows. (AA saying)

    There a lot of one liners which say a lot.
    That might make a good thread.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Hi Chris hope all is well,

    Now we can spend the next 40 years of replacing the garbage , or we can remove the emotion behind the garbage which is the glue behind the garbage belief, so if we remove the emotion glue of the garbage by releasing and clearing it out of our system, then it makes it easy to replace the garbage with new garbage.

    As always your friend, roman.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Thanks for the good deep belly laugh Chris, that's always most welcome my friend! Which of course not so coincidentially brings to mind: Do we ever feel more truly free, as when we are laughing? Tears of joy come to mind, as well as to the corners of my eyes just now thinking about it.

    All of the illusion has to be investigated and seen through so this is a good place to inquire. "Do we ever feel more truly free as when we are laughing?"

    This freedom, which there is more of when we are laughing, is the ego feeling freedom and not the freedom we are talking about in terms of enlightenment/liberation.

    When there is the thought that "I feel more free" when I am laughing it is immediately bound (opposite of free) to the idea that I feel less free when I am not laughing. This is natural for the ego as its nature is a movement of grasping and resisting. It seeks pleasure and avoids pain and it equates the desirable feel-good sensation of laughing with freedom.

    True freedom is not changeable. You don't feel it more or less. It is immoveable and it is found exactly the same, in every single moment. It is present equally the same in the pain, the anger, the fear, the despair as it is in the laughter and happiness.

    It's an important distinction to make because unless the illusion of the ego's "freedom" is seen through it will continue to obscure the truth. As Bob made the point, it is hard facts which are needed to reveal the truth. Resistance to this type of inquiry is quite normal until it is seen that the resistance itself is futile, as we have just been discussing here in the last few posts.

    When that happens we are willing to question every single thought or belief and be prepared to discard all that shows itself to be ego and illusion, however shattering it is to the sense of self.

    Life then takes on new direction as painful moments in life are seen as no different that the good moments and everything is faced with equal openness and availability.

    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Well see, this is why I seldom drop by the enlightenment thread, it gets too complicated. (LOL) I'll leave enlightenment to the experts.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Well see, this is why I seldom drop by the enlightenment thread, it gets too complicated. (LOL) I'll leave enlightenment to the experts.

    I wouldn't say complicated, Fred but this thread is very specific and not vague in terms about what is discussed, that's for sure - in terms of transcendence of the ego and the practice to do that.

    It's probably off putting to many people because of that but I think Chris has done well to keep this thread going for so long with so few participating.

    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Thank Jeanette.
    The thread sometimes wanders off into deep philosophy but cheerfulness keeps breaking though.
    There has been a progression over the years this thread has existed, so even some one new to the subject can find relevant material in the early posts.
    The ego wants to find something new and up to date but every page of this thread is up to date because Truth is eternal.
    There are posts/videos suitable for every level of understanding.

    Its not my thread I just started it.
    It belongs to all who visit and contribute, without whom my enthusiasm for posting videos etc on enlightenment and parallel subjects would have died a death long ago.

    The man made the dream and the dream made the man.

    I grow in understanding with the thread and the contributions of others which I value greatly.

    Much love Chris
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    EXOTIC India

    JANUARY 2013
    ARTICLE OF THE MONTH



    From Helpless to Wise: The Evolution of a Devotee





    The Bhagavad Gita, in one verse, clearly outlines the evolution of a devotee (Bhakta), blessed with the grace of God.



    Krishna says:



    "Four types of virtuous devotees worship me: the distressed; the seekers of wealth; the one who seeks knowledge of God; and the Jnani (wise)." (Gita7.16)



    The first level, that of a distressed person, suggests an individual who has never yet given a serious thought to God. At some juncture in his life, he undergoes a tremendous amount of suffering. This is a result of his or her previous Karma. However, he tries to alleviate his suffering by performing even more Karma. During this process, at some stage he realizes: "I am helpless; there is nothing more I can do. The situation cannot be retrieved."



    This makes him cry out in distress: "Oh God save me." He prays to God to forgive all his wrong-doings. He who till now, had never given any thought or attention to God, in this hour of extreme distress, continuously prays to Him.



    Then what happens? Because of this continuance remembrance of God, his reservoir of accumulated sins begins shrinking. As this happens, his suffering too loses momentum and starts decreasing. That makes him thank God saying: "O! God, I prayed to you and received your blessings. Thus my suffering was reduced. Thank You. However, there is still some suffering left. Please remove that too."



    Gradually, his distress is lessened even more, until finally the suffering in question totally vanishes. Relieved of his incumbent suffering, what does such a devotee do next? He prays for even more: "O! God, I am living in a rented house right now. Please give me a house of my own." Observing that God is doing him well, he is emboldened to ask for more. By doing so he evolves into the second stage, that of a seeker of wealth. As he thus prays to God, his virtue (Punya) increases. At some time he is able to acquire a house.



    What does he do next? He addresses God as following: "Thank You God. However, do remember that I have two sons. Therefore, I need one more house." He continues to pray in this manner. This act of worship further diminishes his accumulated sins and increases his store of virtues. Thus, he makes further gains in happiness (Sukha) and is able to acquire another house. In this level the Bhakta continues to ask from God and has all his desires fulfilled.



    Now that he has all he wanted, there seems to be no need for God, and he forgets Him. Once he forgets God, even though on the surface everything appears jolly and fine, his reservoir of sins begins to rise. As the sins consequently accumulate, his Sukha starts diminishing, and he falls again into suffering and distress. We can observe this in powerful and affluent clans, intoxicated with their own power, losing it all within two or three generations.



    Therefore, from the second stage, he descends back into the first, becoming a distressed Bhakta once again: the one who remembers God only at the time of suffering. There, because of his distress, he again remembers God and thus the whole cycle begins anew. This happens again and again, and he continues to oscillate between the two stages.



    Despite this however, if at some point in his life, whether in this birth or previous ones, he has performed even an iota of Nishkama-Karma (action without desiring its fruit), maybe even given one rupee to someone without expecting anything in return, this selfless deed is bound to bear fruit sooner or later. The fruit of Nishkama Karma manifests itself in this manner: As the devotee oscillates between these two stages, a spark of divine inspiration is ignited in his heart, which makes him think thus: "Whenever I cry out, God restores and replenishes me. Then after some time, I am again at a loss, and then fulfilled again. What meaningless exercise is this?"



    This ignition sets his thought engine rolling in the correct direction: "Who is this supremely powerful God? I have never seen Him, but He is performing such extraordinary feats." This is the seeker hankering after the knowledge of God, the third stage in the evolution of a Bhakta.



    Thus alternating from distress to seeking prosperity, he is finally jolted by divine inspiration to see the futility of it all and become a seeker of knowledge. The third stage Bhakta starts by asking the correct questions: "Why have I taken birth? What is the purpose behind this world?" and so on. These are true marks of a seeker hankering after knowledge. Thus is his life fundamentally altered.



    Such a seeker realizes that there is nobody in this world who is constantly happy, nor anyone who is always unhappy. These things take place in cycles and happen to everybody. He understands that the only important issue is whether one is spiritually progressing or not. Once he is at this level, there is no going back or falling down for the Bhakta. He continues to get to hear from great saints answers to his queries, and is all the time inspired to perform more and more purer forms of Karma, especially Nishkama Karma. Consequently, his inner self gets more and more cleansed, and he is able to concentrate for longer durations on God, enabling him to meditate. By sustained practice he finally becomes a Jnani (wise/knowledgeable), one who can remain in constant communion with the Supreme Soul. This is the fourth stage of a Bhakta.


    The Jnani Bhakta is Dearest to God



    Lord Krishna says in the next verse:



    "Out of these four, it is the Jnani who stands out and is dearest to me, and I dearest to him. This is because he is devoted exclusively to me only, and is in constant communion with me." (7.17)



    As such a devotee has his mind constantly on God, the latter too has him constantly under his gaze (Gita 4.11). This is why the devotee at the third level never falls, because he is always under the protective gaze of God. Though his previous Samskaras may sometimes take the Jnani Bhakta on the path of wrong Karma, no sooner does he start off, God, who is seated inside his heart, draws him back, inspiring him to reflect on the incorrectness of the action he was about to undertake.



    Like the small child, whose exclusive devotion to her compels his mother to forever keep him under her protective arms; and drop everything to rush to his defence whenever he takes a false step, God too does the same for those who reserve their Bhakti only for Him and none other in this world.



    This article is based almost entirely on the teachings of Param Pujya Swami Paramanand Bharati Ji. However, any errors are entirely the author's own.





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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Well see, this is why I seldom drop by the enlightenment thread, it gets too complicated. (LOL) I'll leave enlightenment to the experts.
    Well, I'd say Jen makes a good point. Think about it, Fred -- it's not really that complicated. For example, what kind of freedom is dependent on temporary emotionally reactive states, be it generated by humor or sadness, tears or laughter? Laughter itself is a conditioned response, based on interpretation on perception. Attaching some sense of freedom to it is purely arbitrary, and has no actual basis in reality.

    Certainly, recognizing in a flash of insight the total fraud that one's cherished self-images have amounted to, may provoke laughter, but that is still a reaction, and not a marker of freedom, anymore than tears or indifference would be, for that matter.

    Freedom has nothing to do with any particular emotional or conceptual or physical state, though they all may arise in the midst of it. Awake-ness is not a conditional state, a reaction, a feeling, a thought, or any interpretation, since all of that is transient -- in other words, mere modifications of consciousness.

    Awake-ness, which is awareness, is prior to all states, all forms of identity, all personal flags and propositions, all perception as well as conception. It persists in the midst of both laughter and tears, but is not dependent or coincident on the arising or dissolving of either.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    The challenge is that it is very easy to miss understand spiritual truth.
    Renunciation for example does not mean ascetic or doing without, it means letting go of desire.

    So in attempt to be accurate the explanation can become quite verbose with very "accurate" language to nail it.
    Never the less the truth is simple
    You are That!!! the ego stands between you and that self knowledge.
    Transcend or still the ego and That stands forth illumined.

    Good definition of expert

    Has been drip under pressure Translation "Ex spurt"


    Chris
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Hey everybody.

    Good to see folks, it has been a while.

    I'll share where I"m at right now on the process of enlightenment.

    It's a choice.

    Emotions are familiar and easy. Habits and popular life-patterns are too. Life programs us to display these patterns in solidarity with the human condition. Going beyond to seek enlightenment takes one out of the mainstream. It's unfamiliar and takes one into higher realms of being where human companionship seems to mean much less from the observer's perspective.

    At a certain point in the process, after undergoing individual enlightenment experiences, one's emotivity point shifts and becomes universal rather than particular. This 'releases' one from the patriarchal and cultural limitations of romantic love and emotional attachment/symbiosis/parasitism/vampirism-interpreted-as-love, but also puts them in a position to be perceived as unfeeling or unemotional to those witnessing its apparent effects. Nothing could be further from the truth as their level of compassion and love for humanity, gratitude and humility as recognition of solidarity, leads to the birth of an all encompassing empathic resonance with all of life.

    Yet this becomes nigh impossible to explain to folks unless you have days or weeks or years to do so for those who have never considered such as being possible or know anything about spirituality other than the simplistic grade-school renditions of organized religion.

    So that's fine.

    Everybody is where they are at and it's all good. I no longer find it necessary to preach or even teach. If someone appears in my life with a need of information then I will happily supply it up to the exact point of fully answering their question and NO MORE.

    That seems to be an imposition upon their free will to me.

    It's funny because I've been thrust into a situation currently where I'm surrounded by individuals who are consumed by lower chakra desires and recreational pleasures, and yet interested in such things as those we speak on at the very basic level, but they have no other apparent opportunity to learn about them except through me. I'm a bit bemused by the situation, wondering how and why I was placed in this position and if I'm really supposed to reach out to help these folks gain knowledge or is it just a living reminder of where I used to be and the kind of people I used to hang around constantly.

    Ah well. Hope all of YOU are well and blessed.
    Last edited by Rahkyt; 16th January 2013 at 20:48.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Good to see you Rahkty.
    I can identify with your post my friend and it can make life quite difficult when people see an agenda where there is none.
    The love for the checkout person is the same as for my children though push comes to shove I have a sense of responsibility for them.
    All are my family but I would not choose to spend time with everyone I meet.
    It al happens of its self.

    Chris
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Yes, Chris. It is that sense of responsibility that remains one of the last 'ties' that connect us individually with the world, it seems.

    I am grateful for mine, I recognize and accept them as destined relationships that I am blessed to have made and honor. After some years of struggle and incomprehension, my family is finally beginning to understand a bit about the path I follow, and even my strange way of showing affection is appreciated for what it is. I attribute this to the general awakening energy that has been bombarding the planet, which has affected my immediate family in amazing ways, as even within the constraints of societal mores, there is a recognition of the validity of that which lies beyond, as well as an understanding that truth is not limited or sectarian in nature.

    It's funny sometimes how we end up spending time with folks whom we might never have chosen to spend time with. LOL

    Guess that's life, eh?

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    My life will fall apart without thinking

    Eckhart helps us overcome a common assumption.

    Thanks to Dan for sending me this.

    Chris






    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c78svZaKRRo
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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