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Thread: Enlightenment and related matters.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by illuminate (here)
    where is Mudra??
    tell her to get her beautiful self on over here,
    oh how I miss her!!!

    you both were like a team of beautiful bright lights that I could
    always count on for putting the biggest smile on my face and in
    my heart... thank you!!!

    xo

    Her new residence.

    http://www.themistsofavalon.net/forum.htm

    Dear Illuminate
    I share your feelings.
    I have begged, cajoled several times as recently as yesterday.

    Whats a man to do -- smiling.

    Heart heart is so big.

    In fairness so are a lot of hearts in residence here, but only one Mudra,
    She is happy in her new home which I visit from time to time.

    Thanks for your kind words
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

  2. Link to Post #182
    illuminate
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Thank YOU Chris...
    I shall have to go and visit the
    mists and do some begging myself

    ps.. congrats to you for quitting smoking...
    so hard, but SO GOOD!!!!

  3. Link to Post #183
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by illuminate (here)
    Thank YOU Chris...
    I shall have to go and visit the
    mists and do some begging myself

    ps.. congrats to you for quitting smoking...
    so hard, but SO GOOD!!!!
    Love your Avatar.
    Thanks very much.
    So far so good/
    Sucking my thumb Lol.
    Every time a trigger goes off I say " I wont have one just now"
    No big deal.
    What you resit, persists.
    Love Chris.
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

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    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member truthseekerdan's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Enlightenment and related matters.



    Let's see how they line up... Devil/Satan = Ego? You decide for yourself!

    If the ego is the separation between us and the divine, then the "fall" would be divinity coming into the dense matter and separating from the oneness it had in the unmanifest. Satan (adversary) is related to density - and bodily desire, greed, hate, and gluttony.

    In Buddhism Satan is basically equivalent to "Mara" the god of delusion (Mara tempts the Buddha with desire and anger during an all night meditation, and the Buddha resists and becomes enlightened).

    In Hinduism Mara is the Goddess of Death. Maya is a more prominent goddess who rules illusion and the duality of existence. Even though illusion and duality are to be overcome - she's not seen as evil per se, just doing her job keeping us in the dark.

    In Judaism (old testament) Satan is "the accuser".
    In Islam, Satan is called Iblis and refused to bow before Adam at the beginning of humanity. And he's not an angel at all. In Islam angels do not have free will - but a Jinn (genie) who like a human has free will.

    If the ego is delusion, that separates us from the divine, tempt us with desire, delude us, refuse to bow to us, and seems to have free will - then sure Satan = Ego.

    Hope this explanation helps, and I don't have to be right.

    Dan ~
    Unity Consciousness
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free your mind, and open your heart to LOVE.
    You'll then become enlightened able to just BE.

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  6. Link to Post #185
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Thanks Dan
    you have obviously gone into the subject very deeply.
    I like videos but prefer to know what a person thinks.
    I want to know how a spiritual teaching is helpful in this world.
    Ramana said " The measure of spiritual progress is the degree of silence of the mind."
    The ego is a nag, monkey mind, all over the place, rest-less, no peace to be had..

    Intention is the most important thing.

    Krishna (All avatars speak for God as they are God) said. All are mine even those who run in the wrong direction.

    All that is needed is one intention to be aligned to Gods will.

    Sai Baba said "Love all serve all"

    Hawkins "Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what"

    Tolle "NOW" "Dont take your thoughts too seriously"

    Course in miracles, " Know that when you take up position you are identifying with an illusion" nothing is what it seems to be.
    It is my intention to say things that are helpful-- not necessarily true or untrue, right or wrong.
    What a child needs to hear is not much use to an adult.
    Ramana dyingof cancer was asked if e felt pain,
    The answer --- "The body does" He was not the body and was unaware of pain, till asked about it.
    He served all till the moment of his death -- what an ego less example to us all.
    We there is no agenda --- whats in it for me --- there is no ego.
    We can say there is no ego tlll we are blue in the face, but until enlightenment relieves us of that illusion, ego is very much alive and kicking.
    Thats the difficulty with superficial knowledge quoted with out context.
    The enlightened can say I am God
    That I am the totality all of it.
    Its true for them but not true for us, YET.
    Its our potential but not our subjective reality, YET.
    One must dive very deep to discover truth.
    Investigate, investigate.
    Meditate on what you find.

    Truth will reveal itself when you are ready.

    Chris

    Chris
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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    A great teacher will not say from great height.

    There is no ego, without showing you how to let go of that illusion.

    The true teacher will come down to where you are, your level of misunderstanding. and gently accompany you every step of the way.

    He/she will not push or force in any way.

    When your truly ready an appropriate teacher will appear.
    But beware there are many egos dressed as teachers.

    When you are truly ready the Grace of God will relieve you of ignorance and then you can say.

    There is no ego because, you wont have one, till then thinking makes it so and the illusory ego is very real.

    Thinking however will not free you, thinkin created the illusion.
    Only the power of God can free you.

    Love Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  9. Link to Post #187
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    At the risk of offending
    There is much talk of spirituality.
    What is spirituality?
    The main part of it is seeking to know God, finding Him within.

    There are many attracting follower just now, trying to lead them to a place where they themselves have not reached.
    Talk of Ascension in a knowing way and there will be many listeners reader etc
    No one is ascended in that way, because it hasn't happened as yet.
    Going to the stars, UFO,s thats an other different subject entirely.

    Assuming there are aliens, they were made by the same Creator as us.
    Do they know more than God?

    God is inside you now waiting patiently to be discovered and are you looking or chasing after exciting concepts?

    Please think very carefull before you devote a lot of time following non-enlightened teachers.
    If you claim to be looking for spiritual truth, then devote time to reading books by those who are free of ignorance free of ego, not just saying there is no ego but enlightened by the grace of God.
    Talking about it is not it.
    Many talk about enlightenment and there are good non- enlightened teachers like Wayne Dyer at least he is honest, he goes and listens to Dr David Hawkins who is his main inspiration.
    Wayne wrote the fore word to Dr Hawkins Power vs Force.

    I only share what I believe to be so from my own personal experience.
    I read the books and found them to be true from my subjective experience.
    Short of enlightenment that is
    My ego is still work in progress.
    With Love
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

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  11. Link to Post #188
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    How do you know if a teacher is enlightened?
    Somewhere it the book about or by them will be a description of an event which changed them permanently.
    not an Ah Ha -- we all get them.
    A profound and moving description normally, before during and after..
    They are the event.
    The caterpillar becomes the butterfly.
    After the event there is normally a transition period where the state matures.
    Eckhart worked ion for a period of time then spent two years in a state of bliss sitting on a bench.
    Ramana was redendered speachless and help less he couldent eave feed himself he was in communion - oneness with God ecstatic bliss.
    Hawkins could no longer work then the ability came back, he worked for a period of time building the biggest Psychiatric Practice in New York.
    The realization came that it was like bailing out the ocean with a bucket.
    He became a hermit in his ashram for one not eating for days, no need to.
    The state of enlightenment continued for some years, sometimes tempted by the Devil to assume power. he resisted. then the final door opened.
    As posted a little earlier. Only God walks through the final door.
    We cant understand that level of oneness.
    I suggest you choose your teacher wisely,
    preferably a live one, here and now, one that serves you, rather than the other way about,.

    Love Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    If we can take responsibility for all that is not good, then we have transcended our ego. The Gulf Oil spill for me, is a perfect example, where we cannot just blame a company for this environmental disaster. We are all to blame, we all have been using the oil and gas, and the supply and demand is what pushes them to go further then they would if there was not a requirement for it.

    (I bow my head in shame )

    in love & light
    The states of awareness we currently perceive are only a thiny fraction of the whole.
    The continuum extends deep into nonphysical areas of the universe far beyond our current physical comprehension ~ William Buhlman


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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by rosie (here)
    If we can take responsibility for all that is not good, then we have transcended our ego. The Gulf Oil spill for me, is a perfect example, where we cannot just blame a company for this environmental disaster. We are all to blame, we all have been using the oil and gas, and the supply and demand is what pushes them to go further then they would if there was not a requirement for it.

    (I bow my head in shame )

    in love & light
    There is a lot in your post Rosie and we all have a share in all that happens.
    However shame is not a positive emotion.
    We can learn from our error and I hope we are.
    Hopefully some good will come from this event.
    I greatly share your concern though.
    Love Chris
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by rosie (here)
    If we can take responsibility for all that is not good, then we have transcended our ego. The Gulf Oil spill for me, is a perfect example, where we cannot just blame a company for this environmental disaster. We are all to blame, we all have been using the oil and gas, and the supply and demand is what pushes them to go further then they would if there was not a requirement for it.

    (I bow my head in shame )
    in love & light

    It is not your fault Rosie,

    We are given no choice and get what we are given in terms of oil.

    Maybe this will be the catalyst for 'free energy', and a change in mass consiousness.

    Love,

    Kriya
    NEVER MIND HIS SILENCE~REMEMBER HE IS LISTENING
    :grouphug:

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Off topic


    I asked permission from Chris Lol

    I spoke to Mudra today.
    She misses you all and would like to set up a chat with us.
    I dont know how.
    But you can contact her here.
    Love Chris

    http://www.themistsofavalon.net/forum.htm
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    There is much talk of spirituality.
    What is spirituality?
    The main part of it is seeking to know God, finding Him within.
    Hi Chris,
    Unfortunately there's no point of reference for what the word 'within' means until one has personal experience.
    Obviously by then no explanation is necessary.
    I'm reminded of the leap of faith scene in Indiana Jones. It merely 'appears' that there's nothing there.
    Of course it's not that there's nothing there, it's that there's nothing here!
    No wonder it gets confusing (smile).

    Peace
    It's All Art.

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  21. Link to Post #194
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by zenith (here)
    Hi Chris,
    Unfortunately there's no point of reference for what the word 'within' means until one has personal experience.
    Obviously by then no explanation is necessary.
    I'm reminded of the leap of faith scene in Indiana Jones. It merely 'appears' that there's nothing there.
    Of course it's not that there's nothing there, it's that there's nothing here!
    No wonder it gets confusing (smile).

    Peace
    Yes laughing
    Dr Hawkins ver often begins his lectures by saying
    "I will start at the end of the talk then if you fall asleep you will have missed nothing"
    he then goes on to say.
    Only God is --- nothing ever happened, -- No beginning no end, Timeless.

    Now I might believe that because I have read of "Indras" dream and "In breath and out breath of God" and many other ancient teaching saying more or less the same thing
    But I dont have subjective experience of that.

    The good Dr Hawkins knows im ignorant of this so proceeds to lead me out of illusion bit by bit.

    On the way I find one thing after another happens to prove to me that the teaching is valid through subjective experience.
    Kundalin energy moved strongly before I even knew there was such a thing.
    So back to what you say, somtimes if there is faith first the evidence will follow.
    All we can do is share our strength and experience.
    Thanks Chris
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  23. Link to Post #195
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    The ego loves drama and one of the main ways it does is to perpetuate fear.
    All ego positionalities come down to fear, needing to have, fear of lack, blowing ones own trumpet, insecurity, fear that others are better than one in some way, attention seeking, fear of not being loved. all prejudiced comes from fear of that which we dont know or understand.
    The list is endless.
    If fear is removed think of the kind of world we would live in.

    The ego is animalistic and was necessary to our survival -- me first-- survival of the fittest.
    The front cortex of the brain is a relatively new addition to what is still an animal reptilian "processor" as in computer.
    So we have become a very intelligent animal. We could blow up the plant with one finger on the launch button of nuclear missiles, well two fingers actually.

    The human race has been at war for 95% of its known history and without a change in attitude ie consciousness-- past history if continued would make major use of atomic weapons inevitable. Good bye human race!!!

    With out the ego the human race would not have survived,
    We had to know what was safe to eat and what would eat us.
    We had to be dualistic in order to survive long enough as a species to give human consciousness the time to experience, to grow spiritually, make ready for the next stage in our evolution.
    So the ego has served us well but time to move on.

    So what happens when the ego is transcended?

    If the Sages who tell us they experience the world in an entirely different non dualistic,ego less way are to be believed (and I do) the the ego less state of Oneness is one filled with peace and love, enjoying life in a radiance that is unknown to us, the as yet non enlightened.
    The ego is just redundant not required because in the state of enlightenment the awareness takes over from the mind, as we know it, verbal thought is not necessary, there is a non verbal knowing. appropriate action just happens. As said life is enjoyed to the full.

    Transcending the ego is to my mind crucial to our survival.
    It is that important.

    If you are new to this thread can I suggest that you take time to read at least some of the other pages. There have been some great contributions.
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  24. Link to Post #196
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    I got this about Hawkings, is not very possitive

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins is the sole measure of truth in the universe. People never agree on calibrations when they do it, and must depend on him for the "truth". There is no accountability; there is no group or leader to watch over him, he believes he is God. A direct pipeline to truth with no accountability, if not a cult today will be one tomorrow, as a cult expert friend tells me.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. His "truth" is the only "truth". To even question AK, or report that legitimate double-blind studies have shown that AK is a pseudoscience that is "not more useful than random guessing" will get a calibration of "below 200" ("Dispensing of Existence" on the Lifton criteria).

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    None that I know of. It would be interesting for Rick Ross or someone else to request one, as "4truth" indicated. I just know that one could spend thousands of dollars through his website alone, forgetting about his live lectures (and possible travel expenses). Yet he claims that he does not charge money for his teaching. Very hard to believe. There are ways of making all of his teachings available for free if he really wanted to. It appears that is not his desire.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Totally. Over three quarters of the planet's population are "below 200", meaning without integrity and so on. Not only people, but certain objects, thoughts, words, etc. ad infinitum. It creates a wacky sensibility and certain paranoia within a follower.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Well, of course. Hawkins has the absolute, 100% scientific and spiritual truth. He is God. His work calibrates higher than the Bible and every genius of history. Why would you want to leave? Clearly a person is at a lower level of consciousness if not following Hawkins. Get below 200, which is pretty easy to do (even stating AK has been shown to be a pseudoscience gets you this ranking), and Hawkinazis (humor, no offense) are not supposed to speak with you. Forget that Christ was friends with prostitutes and every other "low life" of his day! People and things below "200" make your muscles go weak. Wayne Dyer says, "Even the heart is a muscle". Ergo, you can die if you do not follow the teachings of Hawkins.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    This is true as far as a similar pattern of grievances. Often it is about Hawkins being very conservative and so on. As far as abuse, I've not heard from enough former members to establish a pattern. Of course this would classify as mental and spiritual, rather than physical, abuse (unless someone else knows something to the contrary). One is meant to give up their identity for Hawkins' opinions of the universe. Clearly this is unhealthy, especially after finding out that Hawkins is a fraud (which he is, from a scientific perspective, as has been clearly demonstrated repeatedly).

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Yes, and it is growing. His first spiritual book was only published in 1995, so more time is needed for more people to come forward. But already several cult experts are aware of him and there should be information online from at least one or two of them online shortly. There are no books, news articles or television programs that I am aware of to date.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. One is always at a "low" level of consciousness. While the real God loves us unconditionally, clearly one is never "good enough" in Hawkins' system. Even "4truth" stated as much, though he would not attribute Hawkins' system to Hawkins apparently.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]9. The group/leader is always right.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. No one is ever right compared to Hawkins. He is the master of the universe, and knows everything in it. Your ideas and opinions are "vanity" (nice, eh?). His ideas and opinions are absolute (psuedo)scientific "truth".

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. Hawkins knows everything through AK. AK is put above your own truth, experience, heart, rational thought, etc. It is his world that he created, and he is the master of it. Step in his way or out of line, and he and/or his followers will "dispense existence" and label you below 200.


    [b:43f8d6ed1e]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Of course. Very clearly, just reading "4Truth" and "TossedSalad"'s responses. Did they ever mention one critical fact regarding Hawkins?

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Of course. Is this not obvious in simply reading some of the responses here?

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Of course. Dr. Robert Todd Carroll, a philosophy professor, was labeled "160" by Hawkins for thinking rationally and scientifically. See Hawkins' response here: [en.wikipedia.org]

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Totally. Hawkinazis literally start to act like Hawkins. I discussed this more in private email with "J"/TossedSalad. For example, 4Truth's "India" example is paraphrasing Hawkins. Hawkinazis start to say "frankly" and "naive" a lot, like Hawkins does. It is very odd and spooky. If you are at all familiar with Hawkins, listen to him and then listen to a follower. It's weird. See TossedSalad's first post, where we are to "discern" (another big Hawkins word) "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", a direct quote from Hawkins' response to Dr. Carroll. See also the Hawkinazi who Dr. Carroll quoted in his newsletter:

    [skepdic.com]

    Quote:
    Boy did you ever blow it. Hawkins is an MD and has a PhD [from CPU]. Look it up and get it right this time. I have personally read his doctoral thesis [from CPU, "Muscle Strength and Emotionally Charged Stimuli" (later titled "Qualitative and Quantitative Analysis and Calibrations of the Level of Human Consciousness"). Another wonderful "doctoral thesis" from CPU was written in Spanish, and the author received a Ph.D. though the four faculty could not speak the language! [www.ptreyeslight.com] ], have you?
    You had better check out David R Hawkins and maybe read one of his books before you say another word...

    What would be your motive for discrediting Dr Hawkins in the first place? and without first-hand knowledge of the premise upon which his conclusions are based? Read Power vs. Force and then discredit him if you can.

    One thing is certain in this life and that is that there is a consequence to every act. What you do to try and discredit such a man as Dr. Hawkins will ultimately create the same reflection in your own reality -- count on it. That's the way consciousness and energy operate. The universe is just and that's the way the universe is and you can't change it so try and be a little more responsible and contemplative about what you disseminate to the general public...

    He questions Dr. Carroll's "motive" (AK is supposed to be able to reveal a person's motives!), notes that there is a "consequence to every act" (threat?); the highlight sentence, "The universe is just and that's the way the universe is..." is followed by a reminder to the philosophy professor to be "responsible" and "contemplative", another big Hawkins emphasis.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. Every Hawkinazi ultimately must depend on Hawkins for his calibrations of "truth". He is the absolute authority with no accountability.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Absolutely. One young man I am aware of was managing a rap group, before he felt that this was negative and he had to give it up to "rise in consciousness" or whatever. He gave up on his former passion, for Hawkins (and spent much money to go see him speak in Sedona, so he could get "blissed out").

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Perhaps spontaneity, but a key aspect of Hawkins' teaching is humor. He laughs all the time. One cult expert that I spoke with found that he laughed inappropriately, and thought him to be virtually senile. The expert said that Hawkins reminded him of an old man who wears diapers and is kind of out of control of himself and out of touch with reality.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    4truth said as much. He had to get rid of the negative friends to reinforce the positive. I am reminded of several excellent "South Park" episodes...The young man I mentioned earlier gave up managing a rap group he loved.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Totally. When Hawkins is rude, arrogant, ignorant, and so on, it is justified in some way, whereas everyone else is supposed to be "unconditionally loving"; clearly Hawkins himself is not. But he is way beyond a mere "540" (unconditional love), where less than 1% of the population is -- he is enlightened, so he can do basically anything I guess, and we just do not understand it because is so far beyond us...

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Anyone below 200 is to be avoided. In one book, Hawkins himself gives an example of a friendly man who would come around to see Hawkins. But, then the man became annoying. Uh-oh, time to calibrate -- pull out Susan's (his wife) arm! Ah Hah! The man had 2 consciousnesses! One was friendly, in the 300's. The other though, was below 200. Hawkins asked him to not come around any more. Buddha walked with a murderer, Christ was friends with prostitutes, but Hawkins, with AK in hand (pun intended) knows better!


    [b:43f8d6ed1e]Ten signs of a safe group/leader.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins is not like this obviously.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins stated way less than should have been known, namely regarding the source of his Ph.D., as one example, or that AK is considered pseudoscience by mainstream science and has been shown to be false. No one as far as I know has access to his financial records. 4truth, why don't you try to get them for us? Or Rick Ross?

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Of course not. Hawkins is the leader of the universe. There is no one above him. I suppose a person could claim God is above him, but Hawkins thinks he is God.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins states that even negative reports on AK (what I am writing right now) calibrates below 200. This is similar to being condemned to hell, or being excommunicated. Anyone below 200 must be avoided.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    More is on the way, but much has been stated already.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Not necessarily existing friendships, or even family I would presume. The guiding message is that anything below 200 makes one go weak and should be avoided.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins believes he is God and that AK is absolutely true. He has no limitations.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Hawkins clearly does not fit. Critical thinking (e.g., as with Dr. Carroll) gets you a negative calibration. Individual autonomy is assumed (he teaches free will), but only to the degree that you are aligned with what he says. That is, you are free -- now go be nice and kind, etc. One is never "good enough" and so of course self-esteem is not fostered.

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.[/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    Clearly Hawkins has made mistakes. Can a Hawkins follower provide an example of him publicly recognizing his errors?

    I can think of an example where he did not. The thought of Hitler is always supposed to make a person's arm go weak. One time to demonstrate this "absolute truth", Hawkins pressed on a person's arm on stage at lecture-performance. The arm did not go weak when the subject thought of Hitler. What did Hawkins do in response to his absolute truth clearly being refuted before everyone's eyes? He calibrated more and determined that Hitler, in his new incarnation (!), is now above 200!!! Hitler now makes people's arms "go strong"!!!

    [b:43f8d6ed1e]10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas. [/b:43f8d6ed1e]

    There is no free exchange of ideas. Remember, everyone but Hawkins' ideas are "vanity". Forget that AK itself is opinion and vanity, because when Hawkins presses on his wife's arm, it says only everyone else's opinions are vanity.

    Quote:
    [b:43f8d6ed1e][i:43f8d6ed1e]Don't be naïve, develop a good BS Detector. You can protect yourself from unsafe groups and leaders by developing a good BS detector. Check things out, know the facts and examine the evidence. A safe group will be patient with your decision making process. If a group or leader grows angry and anxious just because you want to make an informed and careful decision before joining; beware. [/i:43f8d6ed1e][/b:43f8d6ed1e] -- Rick Ross



    Note that for 4truth, these teachers are all on the same level: The Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Vedas (Hindu), Swami Vivekananda and Sri Ramakrishna, Zoroaster and Dr. Hawkins.

    "The Doc says that ALL Truth is the same," yet his AK system contradicts this. The Buddha telling people to be a lamp unto themselves also contradicts Hawkins' AK system -- people depend on him alone for the final absolute truth (no one else's calibrations carry the same weight -- right, 4truth?).

    Quote:
    I'm sure not everone accepted the teachers or teachings from thousands of years ago either.

    This misses the point. Please read above.

    Quote:
    But they seem to all be saying the same thing.

    None of the teachers you listed besides Hawkins uses AK, has a Ph.D. from a diploma mill, a suspect knighthood, relied on vanity articles, demonstrated a clear ignorance of mathematics, physics, science while simultaneously claiming every sentence to be absolutely true, and so on. Please consider our real concerns.

    Quote:
    Hawkins is not the ONLY way, but he a modern way and speaks to the modern mind.

    Hawkins is the only way when it comes to his entire AK system. You may reply that others ("over 200", i.e., an ad hoc hypothesis [ [skepdic.com] ] to rescue the pseudoscience [ [en.wikipedia.org] ] from refutation [ [en.wikipedia.org] ]) can use AK, but I am certain that you will admit that no calibrations carry as much weight (if any) as Hawkins'. If you are even more honest, you will admit that people's calibrations constantly contradict one another. Even more honest and you will admit to the times that you've notice Hawkins contradict is own "absolute" system. Even more honest you will admit that AK does not work.

    Quote:
    Just find that which resonates with you and then you will know that you have found the right teacher (for you).

    4truth, what if I want to follow Sai Baba? What if he "resonates" for me. Yet, he is a pedophile. He makes cracker jack toys and rings appear, with parlor tricks and says it is divine. Is it okay to follow him?

    What if I want to follow a teacher who calibrates below 200 per Hawkins, even though there is no evidence, but she resonates with me? Is it okay to follow her? Or would you not warn me, out of kindness, that Hawkins has calibrated her below 200?

    Quote:
    by what standards is a teacher right or wrong for a person?

    There are objective criteria that have applied here. How do you personally decide if a teacher is "right or wrong for a person"?

    Quote:
    I can tell you that my experience of Hawkins is not of a Cult leader.

    How do define "cult leader"? Does it fit the understanding that is being applied here?

    Quote:
    This is a relationship with the Holy Spirit and that is what he points to.

    How do you define "Holy Spirit"? How does Hawkins point to it? Doesn't AK contradict this relationship? That is, when your heart says one thing, and Hawkins' AK says another -- what comes first for you? For others?

    Quote:
    In fact, he urges one to go within and ask God

    I have seen him rely on AK and tell others to do the same.

    Quote:
    there is absolutely no control anywhere

    There is mind control. ( [www.freedomofmind.com] )

    Quote:
    I can tell you that I am not in a cult and that I have never felt so free in my life!

    I can tell you that virtually every cult member says the same thing. I am glad you are happy, though.

    Quote:
    I am assuming becasue you run this forum that you are naturally interested in having factual information that you can share with the public and it seems that the facts for at least your Hawkins portion, as I have not read much of anything else here, are not actually factual but based on your perception as well and that of others.

    1) Rick Ross made no comment regarding Hawkins, but responded about "an objective measurement of a potentially unsafe leader or group," which could be considered regarding any leader or group.
    2) Please provide evidence for your unsubstantiated claim that, "it seems that the facts for at least your Hawkins portion...are not actually factual but based on...perception..."

    Quote:
    It would seem that in order to have all the facts, that one would need to take into consideration that one might open up to see ALL sides of this issue.

    Interesting. Please provide your side regarding Hawkins' degree coming from a diploma mill, and so on. How is this "perception" versus fact? And please also provide your "side" regarding why Hawkins never notes (to this day) that he received his Ph.D. from CPU, as every other author notes. Please do this for all of our real concerns, rather than the straw men that Hawkinazis set up.

    Quote:
    at least I have walked in these shoes to be able to determine for myself. I am not talking about something or someone I do not know.

    I do know. I've also studied Hawkins, read all of his books, seen him live and on video, etc. I've also walked in these shoes. I can respond. Further, Ross and other cult experts are aware of how cults operate, and can certainly comment from their expertise without ever having been in a specific group themselves.

    Quote:
    Before I address your list, I will just say that subjective experience is all that we have...right?

    Certainly not. Again, we are applying objective criteria here, not, "Oooh I feel happy when Hawkins tells me what to think."

    Quote:
    And that subjectively, I have observed that what Hawkins is saying is right-on when he speaks about spiritual states.

    "Mystical Manipulation: Initiated from above, it seeks to provoke specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that these will appear to have arisen spontaneously..."
    [www.rickross.com]

    Quote:
    Again, not defending Hawkins here and I am not talking about things in the linear. I am talking about the non-linear spiritual awakenings that happen...

    A big thing for Hawkins is to talk about the "linear" and the "nonlinear". Spiritually of course this is a false dilemma; e.g., "emptiness is form; form is emptiness" and "Nirvana and samsara are one" - the Buddha.

    Quote:
    I'm just telling you that when the spiritual world begins to open up and your teacher has pointed to the sights and you begin to see that you are experiencing that which he has shared due to being kind and loving, forgiving, radically honest...

    Wow, I didn’t realize there are different types of “honest”. ((LOL)) Are you seriously claiming that Hawkins is not only honest, but [i:43f8d6ed1e]radically[/i:43f8d6ed1e] honest? Wow. I guess that “radically” part needs to be added when people lie. Have you actually read what has been posted here? Do you not have any concerns??? And you don’t think you are in a mind control cult? What if what has been written here were written about someone else, not your teacher? Then would it concern you, maybe just a teeny-weeny, itsy bitsy bit?

    Quote:
    ...and in deep prayer with God...

    Does Hawkins have a direct pipeline?

    Quote:
    he doesn't even know my name.

    Wait a second – he doesn’t even know your name? How can he be “God” then? Even Santa Claus knows your name! It doesn’t sound like he’s “omniscient” to me! Couldn’t he magically ask his wife’s outstretched arm your name? That would be something! Then he could do it in front of James Randi, win $1 million and do something worthwhile like feed the hungry, or offer his “gifts” from God for free instead of thousands of dollars for all of his “gifts” on his website, not to mention his lectures.

    Quote:
    There is no fear of the future and no evil conspiracies coming from the mouth Hawkins.

    What about "astrals" and being tempted to control worlds by Lucifer?

    Quote:
    LIke is everyone who wants to be a pro-golfer a Tiger-wood's cult member?

    No. This is a straw man.

    Quote:
    There are no rules or dictates or "goods" or "bads".

    Above 200, below 200, only associate with people above 200, etc.

    Quote:
    It's like going to a medical doctor over and over again for a scraped knee until one realizes that one has their own box of band aids in the cabinet.

    So why study him at all, if you already have the band aids?

    Quote:
    This is not a fact [i:43f8d6ed1e]for me[/i:43f8d6ed1e].

    We are using objective, not subjective, criteria.

    Quote:
    He has never indicated an us vs. them philosophy or mentality

    Above 200, below 200, skeptics vs. spiritual, etc.

    Quote:
    I go there to learn about disecting mind/ego as I know he has done it.

    How do you know?

    Quote:
    we do live in a free speech country

    Hawkins is opposed to free speech. AK "revealed" most of it is lies. So he would prefer not to have free speech apparently.

    Quote:
    and I also have been urged to go within and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as well.

    I've never heard this. Isn't AK more important?

    Quote:
    and the Kingdom of God is found within and no where else, not even in one's teacher of choice.

    One must rely on Hawkins with AK for the ultimate truth of his system.

    Quote:
    think about how Seinfeld has influenced the world with "Seinfeldisms"....I will personally purchase the $125 ticket for you [to see Hawkins]...

    I’m supposed to see Jerry Seinfeld live soon. I’m sure it will at least be much more enlightening than a Hawkins lecture (and cheaper, imagine that!). Maybe you would like to purchase my enlightening Seinfeld ticket for me, 4truth?

    Quote:
    [i:43f8d6ed1e]I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown.[/i:43f8d6ed1e] -Woody Allen


    Best wishes to you.

    Radically yours,

    Phoenix

    Source http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,13156,20779

    Oh Chris, you are in a cult no wonder your behaviour lately. Well I am sure you will calibrate me below 200 because I dared to criticize your idol but you should know this was comming, as Hawkings says...you started the ball rolling

    And yes Hawkings knew Puharich de MKultra supremo, and also Uri Geller and Ron Hubbard, there are some people that says that his system is plagiarized from Scientology

    Have a good day

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    oh dear oh dear Laughing.
    By their works you will know them.
    if you look at the organizations that Dr Hawkins has founded and is also part of you will see a track record of caring for others.
    David R. Hawkins, M.D. Ph.D.
    Sedona, Arizona, December 2001

    This is what others have had to say about "Power vs. Force"

    “A beautiful gift of writing… (You) spread joy, love, and compassion through what you
    write. The fruit of these three is peace, as you know…”
    —Mother Teresa, Templeton/Nobel Peace Prize recipient, anointed Blessed Teresa.

    “Perhaps the most important and significant book I’ve read in the past ten years.”
    —Dr. Wayne W. Dyer, motivational speaker and prolific best-selling author.

    “…particularly timely… a significant contribution to understanding and dealing with the problems we face today.”
    —Lee Iacocca, Former CEO of the Chrysler Corporation

    “I especially appreciate the research and presentation on the attractor patterns of business…”
    —Sam Walton, Founder/CEO of Wal-Mart

    “Overwhelming! A masterpiece! A lifetime work!”
    —Sheldon Deal, then President, International College of Applied Kinesiology
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    oh dear oh dear Laughing.
    By their works you will know them.
    if you look at the organizations that Dr Hawkins has founded and is also part of you will see a track record of caring for others.
    David R. Hawkins, M.D. Ph.D.
    Sedona, Arizona, December 2001

    This is what others have had to say about "Power vs. Force"

    “A beautiful gift of writing… (You) spread joy, love, and compassion through what you
    write. The fruit of these three is peace, as you know…”
    —Mother Teresa, Templeton/Nobel Peace Prize recipient, anointed Blessed Teresa.

    “Perhaps the most important and significant book I’ve read in the past ten years.”
    —Dr. Wayne W. Dyer, motivational speaker and prolific best-selling author.

    “…particularly timely… a significant contribution to understanding and dealing with the problems we face today.”
    —Lee Iacocca, Former CEO of the Chrysler Corporation

    “I especially appreciate the research and presentation on the attractor patterns of business…”
    —Sam Walton, Founder/CEO of Wal-Mart

    “Overwhelming! A masterpiece! A lifetime work!”
    —Sheldon Deal, then President, International College of Applied Kinesiology
    Logically he will be praised by some, but there are many that think his works are pseudoscientific and too close to the scientology methods which is a cult. Also notice that people are being separated from their families as being under 200 that is a clear sign of a cult and the fact that there is one head and that is Hawkings himself

    It is amazing how much disinformation we are being feed as good and how many are into the MKultra thing

    I don't know if you know but many are asked by their publishers to write reviews for fellow authors and of course they are as sincere as the Evening Standard

    It is not personal

    Love Chris

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Who ever wrote the expose obviously doesnt have a clue about enlightenment or the work of Dr Diamond Kinesology is accepted as accurate but not everyone can do it.
    It might be good idea to check out kinesology cant spell. It has a long history.
    Dr Hawkins got the muscle testing method from studying Dr Diamonds work.

    To be honest im not much interested in that its just used to calibrate that which is helpful or otherwise ie organic much healthier than non etc.

    Honestly truth needs no defense it stands out.

    As for you Stardust I think you are a lovely soul.

    I shamelessly promote Dr Hawkins work -- not him. and of course other enlightened teachers and you give many opportunities to do so star you are a treasure.

    All that aside I like your energy I know you care, your heart is good, -- what else really matters?

    Love Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment and related matters.

    Dear Stardust
    Mother teresa easily influenced Oh Yeah!!!
    I have never ever heard a Saint write a foreword for a book before especially one who is not for religion per say
    I would suggest you read the book for yourself but honestly its entirely up to you.
    I dont mind.

    Have a nice day.

    With love and thanks from an old, much travelled on the spiritual highway, man.
    oh I nerly said Highwayman Lol
    high jacker supreme.
    im beyond taking anything except my relationship with God seriously
    We need a good laugh,
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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