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    United States Avalon Member Jhonie's Avatar
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    Default Is Enlightenment An Illusion?



    Bill Joslin interview - "Meditation: Deconstructing Nonsense" - #202

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQN...6D5D5&index=15

    This interview is a about meditation but at minute 134 he states, "Enlightment is an illusion". The interview explains why. What say you?

    Bill Joslin at an early age developed a fascination with mind and awareness. Subsequently he spent 16 years studying Bonpo, Nyingma Buddhist and Taoist practices. He spent a year in Asia interviewing Buddhist monks in Laos, Cambodia, Nepal; Taoist practitioners in Indonesia, and Bonpo priests in Northwest Nepal, comparing practices as taught in the west with the original monasteries and traditions from which the teachings originated. Nine years ago, Bill was asked by a number of people to counsel them with mediation practices they were having difficulty with and not finding aid from their current teachers. From a sense of responsibility Bill then went through a process of questioning every aspect of meditative knowledge he had gained over those years, essentially applying critical thinking to spiritual practices. In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.
    Last edited by Jhonie; 8th November 2015 at 22:46.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Sooooo, the basis for the conclusion is what....'reality'?
    Last edited by joeecho; 9th November 2015 at 02:05.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.
    I'm just gonna slow clap this out.







    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

    How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?
    Last edited by Jhonie; 9th November 2015 at 05:49.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.
    It's not something anyone can show you, you would need to experience it yourself (go as far as you can with it) in order to decide for yourself, but thinking about it is not a spiritual endeavour.

    It is a deeply individual endeavour, to walk a spiritual path, nobody can tell anybody how to walk it because they're all so unique...how that can be a religion is beyond my comprehension, but if anyone thinks it is a religion or some control mechanism that's their choice, spirituality is not interesting to everyone, nor should it be, so be it.
    Last edited by Rachel; 9th November 2015 at 05:30.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Imho ascension and meditation is misunderstood by many people because it is a process of awakening. That means to me that realisation comes bit by bit inwardly, slowly most times sometimes gently sometimes it's a breakdown and a burn out. Its an awakening of consciousness.I think that those people who talk of ascension as going to a higher realm (like physical ascension are all either confused, led by a malignent entity or are outright dissinfo agents for the nasties (the dark lodges) although I don't discount the event it's just most people have high expectation and the nasties are trying to take advantage of that to deter and disharten the people who are seeking to know and experience more than what lamestream dictates.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    well, it goes perfectly with what I believe, but I won't knock someone off the path they have chosen, enlightenment is what comes at the end of a search for knowledge...

    did you find what you were looking for?

    Why not?

    If it is yes, have you learned anything you would be able to share with others?

    I'm still waiting for the first to say yes... ;-)

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    Blessed Be to You and Me.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

    How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?
    Hi Jhonie,

    en light en men t

    en-

    a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from French and productive in English on this model, forming verbs with the general sense “to cause (a person or thing) to be in” the place, condition, or state named by the stem; more specifically, “to confine in or place on” ( enshrine; enthrone; entomb); “to cause to be in” ( enslave; entrust; enrich; encourage; endear); “to restrict” in the manner named by the stem, typically with the additional sense “on all sides, completely” ( enwind; encircle; enclose; entwine).


    lolol ie the light (of being/awareness) in “men”


    The grand irony is that the illusion ie the seemingly separate thinker, which refers to itself as Jhonie, is questioning the reality of Reality, rather than looking into whether it itself ie the thinker, is “real” in the first place.

    Reality has been “going on” eternally, so “how long” is moot. Time, Space, and Forms are conceptual appearances or illusions within Reality. More accurately, the Sky, from the rainbow’s point of view, has been going on for as long as the rainbow’s apparent existence. But while the rainbow will, like all illusions, disappear, the Sky is eternal. The Sky is both the source of, and completely unaffected by, the rainbow. The rainbow however cannot appear without the Sky.

    It is sooooo obvious the illusions can’t see the forest for the tree’s, or if you prefer, the ocean for the waves, or the sky for the clouds. The clouds are so used to looking at other clouds they've forgotten that the Sky is really empty (of forms). Reality is obvious - to Reality, but not in the sense of a separate observer. To “see” it, you have to BE IT ie the "clouds" have to clear.

    Illusion

    1300-50; Middle English < Latin illūsiōn- (stem of illūsiō) irony, mocking, equivalent to illūs (us) past participle of illūdere to mock, ridicule ( il- il-1+ lūd- play (see ludicrous ) + -tus past participle suffix, with dt > s) + -iōn- -ion

    1. something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.

    It is the relative mind that is the deceiver, the creator of illusions.

    To identify with the relative mind is to identify with relativity, then begins the “fall” from Grace - the eternal state of Being, into the apparent cycle of life and death of constantly changing forms....


    "16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

    But of course the “fall” is just part of the illusion itself. Your real Self never did fall, your real Self never could become unreal, for you truly are, and eternally will be...

    REALITY

    In Lak’ech/With Love
    tim

    PS "Rainbows are visions but only illusions...
    It's something that I'm s'pose to BE"...

    Last edited by Shadowman; 9th November 2015 at 11:19.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Im inclined to point to this pointing
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904

    I find this thread very clear.
    Think you have to be ready to hear or begin to hear that you are not a separate entity.
    Tim, Adyashanti, Mooji and others helped to get some consideration of this started.
    After a while it makes sense.
    The ancient enlightened pointed to "One without a second" being the reality, or if you prefer what Jesus said--"The Father and I are one"
    There is no where God is not--in every atom--from the smallest to the largest--"Form and formless both and neither"

    So there you go--years of searching studying and it all comes down to a few lines in this post.

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    i've been on a path of life as 'meditation' for many years, by being present at all times (though not always successful, which is when mistakes, misunderstandings and accidents occur) - i do not sit and meditate.

    Doing the dishes, driving the car, playing music, reading a book, menial labour etc... these are all means to Presence - but, so many people are wrapped up in their inner chit chat, that they don't use anything/everything as the Way (Tao).

    Traditional meditative practices are for those who cannot be present for any length of time, so they have to "try" to clear their minds in a safe space. Once the mind is clear, any task is meditative. Enlightenment is an antiquated word - We are all capable of what that word represents, and there is no real determination for it's presence in anyone (there are myriad ways of how it expresses in each individual). We hear stories of enlightened ones from the past - they were obviously different from their peers at the time. Our current time is full of 'enlightened' beings, they're just not obvious, because we're all busy watching ego based successes, and they don't go there - The business of attaining enlightenment is just another way gurus (all are false at this point - any historical master points to the individual as the only teacher one needs) are making $ and distracting people from simply just BeIng.
    "Stop acting so Small, You are the Universe in Ecstatic Motion."
    ~Rumi

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Meditation is about control but it's about control over one's senses. It earned a bad reputation because people have abused it. This is one of the reasons why it wasn't given out to public and taught to a few selected ones. It's mixed with a lot of fantasy new age nonsense as well nowadays. It's still an invitation to try something on your own and make your own opinion.
    Experience reality beyond the senses
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Thanks for the thread Jhonie!

    Sometimes a good question, entertained/chewed on a while, will help us to come up with our own answers.
    The answer/truth is in us all, We just need to remember, a little reminder may be helpful.

    Here are two questions that lead to the same ultimate answer.

    How do You escape from an illusory place?

    How can You ever not be, what You truly are?

    With Love
    barre
    Last edited by Grizz Griswold; 10th November 2015 at 01:07.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    “Trying to suppress delusion is delusion too. Delusions have no original existence; they’re only things you create yourself by indulging in discrimination.”
    Experience reality beyond the senses
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Plato,Socrates,Aristotle,Tao,Buddhism,Hinduism, and many Masters/Gurus,etc, (not forgetting the sciences)
    These can help to set you on a path of understanding, and there is knowledge everywhere in everything, when you know how to "Look".

    But same with "school", they give you the basics, your ABC's, Now if something "resonates" with me I will listen, We grow by listening, Understanding is our water.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    All these kind souls have kindly answered your post Jhonie --- but it's all words words words....

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    I think you should just stay right there - in that first sentence. Just stay there.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    This is a long post... but I feel the need to present this to those who will know the meaning... I have no doubt that many will reject it... but such is the way.

    I agree entirely… 'enlightenment', as supposed, in a spiritual sense, is an illusion… and it comes from ignorance of life... incorrect translation and interpretation of the original Buddha teaching.

    Buddha himself never wrote one word about enlightenment and the earliest attempt at documenting his teaching… known as the Pali Canon has never been translated or interpreted correctly and was rejected. It was composed somewhere around 450 years after his death around 29 BC… (I looked this up)

    The word Buddha actually means “awakened”. So he is known as a Buddha because he was awakened… NOT enlightened.

    These 2 words 'awakened' and 'enlightened' are two entirely different concepts. Even the Buddhists now use the term 'enlightened'… testament to the indoctrination and mind control of ignorant masses by the ignorance and agenda of the rulers (archons)... when it has nothing to do with been awakened... although it might facilitate awakening.

    And for those who have not worked it out yet… all Buddhist writings are exactly the same as the Christian bible… written by people...after the fact... who had very little idea of reality.

    All religions and philosophies currently are works of fiction with some obvious truths and profound statements and words added to keep us from seeking the real answers to our enquiring minds…

    The real meaning of the word 'enlightenment' comes from the root enlighten… to enlighten is to “give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.”… OR… the action of enlightening someone… OR the state of being enlightened by someone... OR the state of being enlightened about some something… some knowledge… and that's all it means.

    The word Buddha… an awakened one… is a remembrance of a state of consciousness which was previously learned by personal experience, and/or achieved in previous incarnations.

    The reason we do not remember much… if anything... of our previous life or lives is simply because there is not much to remember of any profound use. Who wants to remember things which are insignificant to our spiritual growth? But when we come closer to achieving the ascension into the next higher kingdom we start remembering more life related knowledge... more truth. This is why some humans know inwardly more than others without having learnt about it in their current life… they have experienced the knowledge in previous lives and now it is their right to be conscious of it now… this is known in esoterics as remembrance anew.

    This exact phenomena can be seen in lesser terms when we see one person able to grasp some idea without much effort… whereas another might find it difficult and almost impossible to grasp the same idea.

    This is consciousness growth… we never forget the things which we are latently good at and when and if a life is lived where we need that knowledge… it comes to us with ease.

    So… this word, 'Enlightenment', has no proportional relationship to consciousness level and never will have… simply because everyone is more 'enlightened' than the person who is less 'enlightened'... and they are less enlightened than those they call 'enlightened'…

    It has no resemblance or similarity to consciousness level achievement… because consciousness level is not determined by intellectually learned knowledge… and consciousness level determines the atomic level world which each real Self is able to operate in… which determines the 'spiritual' level of the real Self… not the personality as seen in the human body physical consciousness..

    So when we enlighten others with knowledge… it does not mean to say that we awaken them to reality… because that can only come from Self acquired experience.

    Then, also... so called 'enlightenment' can be used in many many fields… like science, literature, etc etc… now the West has added another field… spirituality.

    Humans just love to place themselves in order… from the barbaric to the high and mighty… I would not be surprised if the West starts handing out medals of enlightenment so we can all hang them around our necks and compare them at the next get together… oh wait we already do that… it's called a degree and a doctorate and a professorship

    The next bit of irony is that we have people who say that people like… and I quote Greybeard above in his post here...
    Quote Tim, Adyashanti, Mooji
    are 'enlightened' when what puzzles my logic is how would you, Chris, or anyone even know they are 'enlightened' if they have no idea what 'enlightenment' actually is? … and clearly you dont.

    Maybe these people are 'enlightened' in their subject… but comparing them to been awakened as the Buddha is stretching it a lot.

    The truth of the matter is that no lower intelligence can determine how high another is with higher intelligence… because how would a lower intelligence even know how far higher, intelligence spans?… and it becomes just an ego exercise if any human even suggest he or she is 'enlightened' to the point of supposed absolute enlightenment… which is impossible in this low level planet.

    Everyone creates his/her own idea of what it is at any moment in time… and Buddha never said he was 'enlightened'... but he certainly knew that he was awakening or remembering his own achieved level of consciousness. And, in fact he would never say that he is 'enlightened' anyway… because advanced Beings don't let their ego get in the way.

    I have no doubt that many philosophers and gurus and many of the favourites in our home libraries have said many a wise words which appear and may very well be wise... but this is only so because of their consciousness level and their remembrance of these truths... which the 'unenlightened' will no doubt find fascinating and will be awe inspired by the 'enlightenment' of these people who came to show us the way. But be wary of those who claim to be awakened as the Buddha was.

    Awakening as happened to Buddha is a rare event and any human who claims awakening by confusing words like 'enlightenment' is trapped in their own self delusion.

    This process takes millions of years and thousands of incarnations to achieve.. and if anyone was somewhere close to this event he/she would be well aware of the part played by our higher brothers in higher worlds and the part they have played for millennia in our development as human beings.

    Just take the 4 noble truths as a gauge…
    1. Life has inevitable suffering… all self created… as we clear and work out our millions of years of wrong actions… you might think you are some saint because you appear to be on the light side of life but you will be shocked if you knew the dark side of your life still waiting to be paid for… karma is a very real law and is not a punishment… we all reap what we sow… it is a law related to the nature of vibration and it basically says that all will be in harmony.

    2. The cause of this suffering is ignorance of the laws of life and our ego which initially only serves a selfish motive.

    3. There is a definite method of ending this suffering.

    4. This end comes only by following the laws of life… which, in the Buddhist way, can be found in the eightfold path… basically telling us to live and think and do 'right' to one another… are you doing the right thing to all around you… no matter what they do to you?

    This is the only way to achieve a full awakening and a final departure from human life and this leads us to brotherhood, harmony, unity and unconditional love for all Beings.

    You don't have to sit in silence every day you have to get out and be a brother to all.

    There is no other way… even if you think there is… and that is our goal here as a human

    Take care
    Ray

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Enlightenment is just removal of ignorance---all are enlightened but unaware of this.
    Self realisation is perhaps a better expression.
    Realisation of the true identity.
    Enlightenment is not a religion part of anything, the "teaching" of this is pretty uniform for thousands of years.
    The teaching/teacher and the taught are the same
    There is no hierarchy.
    A teacher is not even necessary in some cases.
    Eckhart Tolle and Ramana Maharshi had spontaneous awakenings..
    The knowledge is within.
    Ray you re commenting on something you obviously know little about ie what has come through Mooji Tim and others.
    There is no one left to claim enlightenment--there never was an individual--this oneness is the state of enlightenment revealed.
    The illusion is that there ever was separation--Awakening reveals this--call it that or enlightenment it is just words.
    Its not complex.
    You are eternal-- always was, always will be.
    You are complete and perfect no change is possible.
    Ramana said Creation and dissolution never happened.

    Perhaps you could debate this with Tim---I am still ignorant but there have been experiences that tend to show that I am on the right track.

    With love
    Chris


    Last edited by greybeard; 10th November 2015 at 10:55.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Ray I am not saying that enlightenment or call it awakening is the final stage.
    However awareness is unchanging and a simple thought would show that what ever looks through the eyes as a child is exactly the same unchanged as a 70 year old. Experiences come and go persona changes--skills are learned and forgotten but awareness is eternal an unchanged through the whole thing.
    That's why I say what you are is perfect and not capable of change.

    The awakened are busy lifting people in many ways, not sitting being present but being present in all they do.
    Eckhart Tolles book "A New Earth" is one of the best "self" help books I have read.

    I agree with a lot of what you say Ray--the stumbling block as far as I can see is the definition of enlightenment and a different process of moving forward spiritually.

    With love
    Chris
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Ray I am not saying that enlightenment or call it awakening is the final stage.
    However awareness is unchanging and a simple thought would show that what ever looks through the eyes as a child is exactly the same unchanged as a 70 year old. Experiences come and go persona changes--skills are learned and forgotten but awareness is eternal an unchanged through the whole thing.
    That's why I say what you are is perfect and not capable of change.

    The awakened are busy lifting people in many ways, not sitting being present but being present in all they do.
    Eckhart Tolles book "A New Earth" is one of the best "self" help books I have read.

    I agree with a lot of what you say Ray--the stumbling block as far as I can see is the definition of enlightenment and a different process of moving forward spiritually.

    With love
    Chris
    Chris... to me... the idea that we are all perfect and were like that since the beginning... the beginning of what? I might add... is just part of the entire illusion created by people who just cannot seem to get past some logic.

    This idea lacks any reasoning and makes life look like a self indulgent game by some god who has nothing better to do with his time... and that's my opinion and choice.

    And allow me the right to place before readers another hypothesis. There are millions of people living today who do not believe the story you are trying to present... so give everyone a chance to choose.

    It does not matter how many gurus you present as proof of your idea this does not mean that they could very well not be wrong. There are as many esoteric writings which differ from your choice.

    It is my choice to stand by esoterics and it is your choice to stand by who ever you like.

    All this proves is that there might be many ways to the same goal... which is consciousness growth.

    Can you give me one rational reason why some life or force or 'God' would want to create billions of copies of himself... fully evolved and knowing everything... and then make them all forget who they are... do you really think that life or some 'god'... who is supposed to be able to create an entire Cosmos is so naive?

    Do you think that this 'god'... which we are supposed to be part of... has also now created every different mineral, plant and animal and human just to see what the end result will be of his little childlike game?

    That imo is part of the great illusion and was certainly not taught by Buddha or any esoteric writings... all this is merely your idea of a life which you cannot explain any other way.

    If you try to see past the box you have captured yourself in ... and I say this with the greatest respect always... you might just give another hypothesis a chance instead of being so dogmatic about some belief which is to me clearly illogical.

    In my life of searching... some 50 years or more... I might add... I also once thought similar to what you are now... of course that means nothing, but all I am saying is that I have delved into every religion and philosophy and am not entirely naive to what's going on around me

    You have not ever since we crossed paths even attempted to read some of the things I have offered and in your own words you said you were too old and set in your ways... well I have no problem with that but give others some credit for their long search as well.

    Then it has never been my intention ever to change anyone because each will change him/her Self.

    Everyone out there has something to say and those who write books and expect great rewards from the sale are just that much more dogmatic about their claims.

    Evolution of consciousness has been known to be a fact always... it is not a new age bit of hogwash and if you study life around you and in nature you might be surprised at how much you can see of this under our very noses.

    Take care and with Love
    Ray

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