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Thread: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

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    Avalon Member Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Good for you Chris, but there comes a point where you have to drop all beliefs, including the belief in enlightenment. Because this is always a concept of a state that can be reached in time - a future that the mind projects, it is this projection of a future that has to be dropped, at least for a moment (if you check my signature it says it right there).

    You believe in these gurus...who gave them the authority on truth?
    As another bob said, your real guru is your higher self...whether this is true or not I don't know, but it is something to consider.

    You can't learn if you already have your mind made up and fixed....brings me to a nice quote from the Course:

    Those who remember always that they know nothing,
    and who have become willing to learn everything, will learn it.

    Think not you understand anything until you pass the test of perfect peace,
    for peace and understanding go together and never can be found alone.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    But that is the point Rich I dont follow any Guru though they do say its the guru within that is the teacher.
    I dont give authority to any one but I dont disregard what is pointed to.
    Ive gone beyond that and channelled teaching--all these are valuable but can only take one so far --at best they point to the Truth.
    Ive listened to and used many including ACIM
    Sanskrit one of the most complex languages has the oldest teaching ie the Upanisheds.
    The weight of teaching is enormous modern and ancient and can be summed up a "I am That" nothing else is needed.
    Only consciousness exists--call it God, Brahman or any other label.
    I dont have a concept of Enlightenment as it is unknowable as an object.
    I accept it is what I am and does not need any outside frame of reference to support that.
    I awake in the morning and instantly know I exist

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 5th May 2019 at 15:17.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Rich (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
    https://people.well.com/user/jct/

    As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.
    What do you believe would be a more worthy pursuit for your life?
    I think it's individual. For me, my main life's work has been the clearing of the etheric body. When we are born we have very high spiritual and creative potential. But fairly soon the accumulated crap of previous lifetimes, both one's own and those of ancestors, attaches to the child's etheric body, to which attach entities, until we are operating on a fraction of our potential. But that's just me. A Beethoven or a housewife would have a very different life purpose.

    In this pursuit I've reached high (and low) states of awareness, which are always temporary. I lost interest in "peak experiences" and am only interested in naturally being how I was born to be, without having to play mind games to hold onto any particular state.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
    https://people.well.com/user/jct/

    As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.
    What makes you think enlightenment is temporary TomKat?
    The sages say the Self, as in Self Realization, is the only thing that is permanent.
    Chris
    In my experience, there is no capital E, permanent Enlightenment. There are states of awareness one can temporarily own, as you go up the ladder from workaday self to God awareness. You're not going to hold onto that God viewpoint the next day at work, and you probably wouldn't want to. No one state of awareness is appropriate all the time -- that's just mental illness.

    I have come to the uncomfortable realization that life goes on, and on, forever. There is no way off the treadmill. Your soul is like a car that needs to keep going forever, so it behooves you to maintain it. Not by pretended or temporary feelings of escape, but by keeping it pure so that the reflexive universe naturally bends to accommodate it, the same way it does in childhood.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
    There is still a person experiencing it.
    True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
    There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
    Its a complex subject yet so simple.
    Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
    For me---
    Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
    There is still a person experiencing it.
    True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
    There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
    Its a complex subject yet so simple.
    Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
    For me---
    Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904
    I read his one post. Just sounds like one person's peak experience.
    I like Eckhart Tolle. But when I listen to him I can feel him keeping himself mentally poised so as not to use any effort. As I said, there is no one state that is appropriate all the time, but it's nice he found one he likes to use most of the time. I prefer to just be myself with no pose or poise, just be, naturally, without making a conscious decision to be a certain way. Mental poses will be lost between lives, and are probably the reason people spend a whole life trying to recover some forgotten secret way of being.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    I just read a few posts here on the last page. Greybeard, Rich and Tomkat thanks so much for your thoughts. Leaves me pondering!

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    The older I get the more my mind rests in thoughts of death and dying.

    The more I learn the more I understand I know nothing.

    This all points to an idea I have not heard anywhere else...

    Could it be that this whole life experience is actually just for the opportunity to die properly?

    The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.

    Could it be that in our state of complete ignorance, where mere speculation is the best we can do, could it be we learn one thing at death - that we were never alive!

    To realize that in death we are born to our eternal lives might be the key to not coming back here again.

    Is this just bias because of thinking about death - or could this be the way to defeat the unseen hand at recycling souls?
    If not now, then when?

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Those who had Near Death Experiences say that the other side is more real than here.
    Enlighted sages say the same.
    Nasargadatta said we are the children of a barren mother---the unborn.
    Never born--eternal--- a clear definition of eternal is --no beginning no end--timeless.
    Thats our true nature.
    Ive gone beyond worrying about death--though I would like to drift off without being a nuisance to relatives.
    I have no desire to come here again---this life is ok now but there are many years I would not wish on anyone, in particular myself for a repeat performance.

    Chris
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    One of the best bits of advice I read is that Enlightenment is almost an accident --you cant make it happen, but through spiritual practise you can become accident prone.
    To me the notion of "accident" seems highly illogical.
    Even things that we think are accidents, are really not.
    For example a few months ago my body fell off the ladder and others called it an accident,
    but I knew all along it was not an accident because I've had that thought several times before it happened.
    Trying to avoid something can make it happen because you are holding it in your mind.

    It is impossible the Son of God be merely driven by events outside of him.
    It is impossible that happenings that come to him were not his choice.
    His power of decision is the determiner of every situation in which he seems to find himself by chance or accident.
    No accident nor chance is possible within the universe as God created it, outside of which is nothing.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    The problem with a quote out of context is that the context makes it understandable
    Its against a background of the advice not to desire anything even enlightenment--desire strengthens the ego.
    You cant make enlightenment happen its not down to the seeming individual.
    That makes it similar to an evnt out with your control--no one chooses to make an acciednt happen yet they do.
    Enlightenment is almost accidental because there does not seem to be a cause.
    If there was any one could repeat it.
    There are cases in history where it just happene without any spiritual desire for it or even knowledge of it.
    Ramana Maharshi a classic or even Eckhart Tolle
    However the other sie of the coin is that there are no accidents--The Universe brings everything about.
    The rain falls by Divine order but it does not choose whose parade to rain on.---smiling

    Ps it really meansthat your chances of enlightenment are higher if you continue spiritual practise.
    Your more likley to be hit by lightening if you stand under a tree in a lightening storm.
    But you cant make that happen either.
    Last edited by greybeard; 12th May 2019 at 14:18.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Just a shout out to you Greybeard. I pretty much read all your posts now and I am picking up so much from them. I often have a good long think after reading them - they seem to act as triggers for me. So, a big thank you for your wonderful contributions.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Your "shout" really appreciated Jill.
    Many thanks
    Chris
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.
    Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing.
    If someone thinks they know the truth then they can't learn it, they are stuck in their beliefs.
    Not knowing is more far reaching than can be comprehended - it can apply to anything.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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