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Thread: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
    Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.
    Nice quote from probably someone you have never met, never knowing his real intentions. Can you look into the harsh present reality without blinking and see the immense self-caused suffering which is present here?

    Citating nice and well-formed quotes from unknown sources without direct experience. Maybe a glimse of yet another mind trick?

    Wake up to the reality of this world without blinking. Face the inner and outer demons and look for direct experience, for rememberance, for real inner power which is fire. It is for gaining your own wisdom and your own first-hand experience. To become wise is to make your hands dirty and stand in truth nomatter what it takes. This makes you stronger, like a tree capable of handling the storm without breaking, deeply grounded in the soil.

    Sorry to sound harsh. I really see you as equals and it is in no way my intention to hurt anyone of you. I look at this world and see the enormous self-inflicted pain on this planet, feeling a deep inner stirr of acting and refiring the warrior spirit. Looking at the spiritual warriors on this forum, I see a lot of people quoting nice lines of text which they do not even understand. Chasing yet another illusion. Where are your own quotes generated from your own direct experience? Grow up warrior, open your eyes and stand in truth, no matter how painful it is.
    I didn't quote anyone, that's just my opinion.
    I can handle this reality as well as anyone, it's just not my first choice to live in. Why invest in a world which gives nothing back except fear and death? I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    I suspect the human ego is responsible for the misery etc in this world that is why The Buddha saw awakening as the way out of this.

    Regarding "enlightenment" being or not being an illusion and the role the ego plays ---there is a lot about that in early stages of this thread linked below, which was inspired by the late Dr David Hawkins who was a ground breaking Psychiatrist who had the biggest practice in USA---he was also spiritually awakened.

    Chris

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ull=1#post7764
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.
    We are home! We are home!

    This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
    You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

    We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
    Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

    Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

    Please don't try to run away.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.
    We are home! We are home!

    This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
    You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

    We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
    Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

    Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

    Please don't try to run away.
    A void of nothingness? Quite the contrary, I long for the fullness of our creator. I long for unending peace, love and joy, which cannot be found in this reality.
    Don't get me wrong, I haven't screwed up my life so much that I can't handle it. My life is in good order and I have no complaints with my lot. It's just not enough. No matter what you do or accomplish here, the satisfaction or joy never lasts. And after a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    And aftdeath.er a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.
    You can't escape sickness and death. I had to endure a lot as well as a child with epilepsy. Detachment and self control have helped me a lot. As I grew up, I got detached from Friends, from desires and urge to earn more money. I live my passion fully. I enjoy teaching, doing research, reading and developing people. Each one of us has an ability to do something great. We have to find it by discovering ourselves.
    Experience reality beyond the senses
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    Quote Posted by Joey (here)
    Quote Posted by Ted (here)
    I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.
    We are home! We are home!

    This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
    You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

    We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
    Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

    Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

    Please don't try to run away.
    A void of nothingness? Quite the contrary, I long for the fullness of our creator. I long for unending peace, love and joy, which cannot be found in this reality.
    Don't get me wrong, I haven't screwed up my life so much that I can't handle it. My life is in good order and I have no complaints with my lot. It's just not enough. No matter what you do or accomplish here, the satisfaction or joy never lasts. And after a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.
    Hi Ted,
    Maybe Traveling Lighter, would be a good place to start.

    Here's a short video by Paul Hedderman, I recommend Him highly.



    With Love
    bazz

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Enlightenment = light in the mind?

    Okay, how does one know the source of light?
    Hi Jhonie,

    One doesn’t “know” it, ONE IS IT.

    When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave (which is personal subjective/transient/impermanent) has the spiritual realisation that it is in fact unified with the plenary non dual reality of Awareness or ocean within which it appears, it may be said to be enlightened (relatively). This spiritual realisation may be called by any name - Enlightened, Awakened, Self Realised, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Rigpa, etc. which are all just dualistic descriptions pointing towards that which is beyond the mind and duality, the eternal noumenal Reality.

    It is not that the Absolute changes/evolves or becomes enlightened, but for those still existing in the relative duality, one who has “melted into the ocean” may be said, from the point of view of others, to be Awake or Enlightened to the Sat or true nature of reality. Such ones may be referred to by a title indicative of this, such as Buddha, Christ, Avatar, Tathagata, etc.

    While it is not possible for those in ignorance to know with certainty if another is enlightened, this becomes clearer as they themselves progress with their sadhana, meditation or practice. In order to find out who an enlightened one IS, you would do well to find out first - who you are really.

    It is a fallacy that most that have this spiritual realisation do not proclaim it in some way according to their culture and language. They may however, according to their age and the conditions thereof, remain silent, unless one is present with “ears to hear”...

    Now while the Blessed One dwelt in solitude this thought occurred to him: "The Dhamma I have realized is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond mere reasoning, subtle, and intelligible to the wise. But this generation delights, revels, and rejoices in sensual pleasures. It is hard for such a generation to see this conditionality, this dependent arising. Hard too is it to see this calming of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substance of becoming, the extinction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbâna. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others were not to understand me, that would be a weariness, a vexation for me....

    The Buddha said, "Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word ‘âvuso.’ The Tathâgata, monks, is a Consummate One (Arahat), a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you, I shall teach you the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and realize for yourselves even in this lifetime that supreme goal of purity for the sake of which clansmen retire from home to follow the homeless life."....


    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...m/bud_lt13.htm

    Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_Haq


    When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave identifies with the personal subjective/transient/impermanent mind/body matrix they are in a state of ignorance of the true nature of reality. Which is why from their individual subjective point of view, any other ego proclaiming enlightenment must be fraudulent. This of course does not mean that all proclamations of enlightenment/awakening are valid. Still, it would be unwise to disregard all claims, as while an awakened teacher is not necessary, they can certainly be of immense help.

    The only way to know, as in gnosis, is by direct spiritual realisation. Which is entirely different to intellectual knowledge. The meaning of the word enlightenment has been “stepped down” in the West, to imply objective experience or conceptual understanding. In the same way that western translations have mistranslated the Greek words "metanoia" and "hamartia" to reflect a logical, dualistic interpretation rather than the original intent.

    One does not need to change ones thinking from “bad” to “good”, but to go beyond thinking altogether to realise the Self. Paradoxically and somewhat ironically, when one does go beyond the mind, their subsequent use of the mind has greater clarity and impact, as Ray has suggested above. Although it should be remembered the primary goal of yoga is yoking/union with the Absolute, or of religion, is to ligure or bind/tie with the Absolute.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia

    One does not need to stop “sinning” but instead “return” to the source. And when you "arrive" you will find you actually never "left"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia


    Namaste/With Love
    tim
    Minimum Awareness, Maximum Problems
    Maximum Awareness, Minimum Problems
    Total Awareness, No Problems!

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Thanks for the clarity Tim, which comes from beyond heart and mind.

    Much love
    C
    Last edited by greybeard; 15th November 2015 at 09:57.
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Enlightenment = light in the mind?

    Okay, how does one know the source of light?
    Hi Jhonie,

    One doesn’t “know” it, ONE IS IT.

    When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave (which is personal subjective/transient/impermanent) has the spiritual realisation that it is in fact unified with the plenary non dual reality of Awareness or ocean within which it appears, it may be said to be enlightened (relatively). This spiritual realisation may be called by any name - Enlightened, Awakened, Self Realised, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Rigpa, etc. which are all just dualistic descriptions pointing towards that which is beyond the mind and duality, the eternal noumenal Reality.

    It is not that the Absolute changes/evolves or becomes enlightened, but for those still existing in the relative duality, one who has “melted into the ocean” may be said, from the point of view of others, to be Awake or Enlightened to the Sat or true nature of reality. Such ones may be referred to by a title indicative of this, such as Buddha, Christ, Avatar, Tathagata, etc.

    While it is not possible for those in ignorance to know with certainty if another is enlightened, this becomes clearer as they themselves progress with their sadhana, meditation or practice. In order to find out who an enlightened one IS, you would do well to find out first - who you are really.

    It is a fallacy that most that have this spiritual realisation do not proclaim it in some way according to their culture and language. They may however, according to their age and the conditions thereof, remain silent, unless one is present with “ears to hear”...

    Now while the Blessed One dwelt in solitude this thought occurred to him: "The Dhamma I have realized is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond mere reasoning, subtle, and intelligible to the wise. But this generation delights, revels, and rejoices in sensual pleasures. It is hard for such a generation to see this conditionality, this dependent arising. Hard too is it to see this calming of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substance of becoming, the extinction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbâna. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others were not to understand me, that would be a weariness, a vexation for me....

    The Buddha said, "Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word ‘âvuso.’ The Tathâgata, monks, is a Consummate One (Arahat), a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you, I shall teach you the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and realize for yourselves even in this lifetime that supreme goal of purity for the sake of which clansmen retire from home to follow the homeless life."....


    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...m/bud_lt13.htm

    Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_Haq


    When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave identifies with the personal subjective/transient/impermanent mind/body matrix they are in a state of ignorance of the true nature of reality. Which is why from their individual subjective point of view, any other ego proclaiming enlightenment must be fraudulent. This of course does not mean that all proclamations of enlightenment/awakening are valid. Still, it would be unwise to disregard all claims, as while an awakened teacher is not necessary, they can certainly be of immense help.

    The only way to know, as in gnosis, is by direct spiritual realisation. Which is entirely different to intellectual knowledge. The meaning of the word enlightenment has been “stepped down” in the West, to imply objective experience or conceptual understanding. In the same way that western translations have mistranslated the Greek words "metanoia" and "hamartia" to reflect a logical, dualistic interpretation rather than the original intent.

    One does not need to change ones thinking from “bad” to “good”, but to go beyond thinking altogether to realise the Self. Paradoxically and somewhat ironically, when one does go beyond the mind, their subsequent use of the mind has greater clarity and impact, as Ray has suggested above. Although it should be remembered the primary goal of yoga is yoking/union with the Absolute, or of religion, is to ligure or bind/tie with the Absolute.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia

    One does not need to stop “sinning” but instead “return” to the source. And when you "arrive" you will find you actually never "left"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia


    Namaste/With Love
    tim
    Oh, can 'I' just add to Tim's great post another way of looking at it is at the moment of "Spiritual Enlightenment" the Subconscious Mind sees the "Emptiness" of its Projections, as the Dualistic Identity, and merely ceases to continue such projection ... thus what seems to happen is the Dualistic Identity simply Vanishes / Disappears leaving only the Ocean of Timeless Primordial (Impersonal) Awareness !

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    As far as 'I' have grasped it that is !
    Last edited by Clear Light; 15th November 2015 at 17:18. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?


    Gangaji investigates the most important question you will ever ask yourself : Who Am I .... Really ?

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Blessed Be to You and Me.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    It can't be defined but we can get a hint of it.
    For me, it'd be freedom.
    Now you say, freedom from what?
    Freedom from any sort of conditioning.
    WE can communicate to each other from the heart.
    We can create many things using the heart or your true self/ higher mind. How doe we access this self? Get detached from ego which is the dirt on the self and you'll start seeing your buddha face.
    We still need to be given a name, use money and contribute to the economy.
    Going towards enlightenment would be discovering what you were before you were made up in this world.
    All babies or little children are enlightened. They follow their heart and they are full with joy.
    As the Zen Koan says, all children are Zen Masters.

    Oh no, another useless post by Guish...
    Experience reality beyond the senses
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Thought I'd share this one here also:

    Before enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water
    After Enlightenment:: Chop wood, carry water

    Buddhist proverb

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    This thread should actually be named as...
    Is your life an Illusion?

    Life goes on and yes, we have to do our stuff. Or stuff is happening.
    It is just a change of perception that grants you peace.

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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Enlightenment = light in the mind?

    Okay, how does one know the source of light?
    Hi Jhonie,

    From Nisargadatta's "I am That". I have bolded particularly relevant statement's;

    Questioner: I am a retired chartered accountant and my wife is
    engaged in social work for poor women. Our son is leaving for
    the United States and we came to see him off. We are Panjabis,
    but we live in Delhi. We have a guru of the Radha-Soami faith
    and we value satsang highly. We feel very fortunate to be
    brought here. We have met many holy people and we are glad
    to meet one more.
    Maharaj: You have met many anchorites and ascetics, but a
    fully realized man conscious of his divinity (swarupa) is hard to
    find. The saints and Yogis, by immense efforts and sacrifices,
    acquire many miraculous powers and can do much good in the
    way of helping people and inspiring faith, yet it does not make
    them perfect. It is not a way to reality, but merely an enrichment
    of the false. All effort leads to more effort; whatever was built up
    must be maintained, whatever was acquired must be protected
    against decay or loss. Whatever can be lost is not really one’s
    own; and what is not your own of what use can it be to you? In
    my world nothing is pushed about, all happens by itself. All existence
    is in space and time, limited and temporary. He who experiences
    existence is also limited and temporary. I am not
    concerned either with ‘what exists’ or with ‘who exists’. I take my
    stand beyond, where I am both and neither.
    The persons who, after much effort and penance, have fulfilled
    their ambitions and secured higher levels of experience and
    action, are usually acutely conscious of their standing; they
    grade people into hierarchies, ranging from the lowest nonachiever
    to the highest achiever. To me all are equal. Differences
    in appearance and expression are there, but they do not
    matter. Just as the shape of a gold ornament does not affect the
    gold, so does man’s essence remain unaffected. Where this
    sense of equality is lacking it means that reality had not been
    touched.

    Mere knowledge is not enough; the knower must be known.
    The Pandits and the Yogis may know many things, but of what
    use is mere knowledge when the self is not known? It will be certainly
    misused. Without the knowledge of the knower there can
    be no peace.
    Q: How does one come to know the knower?
    M: I can only tell you what I know from my own experience.
    When I met my Guru, he told me: ‘You are not what you take
    yourself to be. Find out what you are. Watch the sense ‘I am’,
    find your real self’. I obeyed him, because I trusted him. I did as
    he told me. All my spare time I would spend looking at myself in
    silence. And what a difference it made, and how soon! It took
    me only three years to realize my true nature.
    My Guru died
    soon after I met him, but it made no difference. I remembered
    what he told me and persevered. The fruit of it is here, with me.

    Q: What is it?
    M: I know myself as I am in reality. I am neither the body, nor
    the mind, nor the mental faculties. I am beyond all these.**
    Q: Are you just nothing?
    M: Come on, be reasonable. Of course I am, most tangibly.
    Only I am not what you may think me to be.
    This tells you all.
    Q: It tells me nothing.
    M: Because it cannot be told. You must gain your own experience.
    You are accustomed to deal with things, physical and
    mental. I am not a thing, nor are you. We are neither matter nor
    energy, neither body nor mind. Once you have a glimpse of
    your own being, you will not find me difficult to understand.

    We believe in so many things on hearsay. We believe in distant
    lands and people, in heavens and hells, in gods and goddesses,
    because we were told. Similarly, we were told about
    ourselves, our parents, name, position, duties and so on. We
    never cared to verify. The way to truth lies through the destruction
    of the false. To destroy the false, you must question your
    most inveterate beliefs. Of these the idea that you are the body
    is the worst. With the body comes the world, with the world —
    God, who is supposed to have created the world and thus it
    starts — fears, religions, prayers, sacrifices, all sorts of systems
    — all to protect and support the child-man, frightened out of his
    wits by monsters of his own making. Realize that what you are
    cannot be born nor die and with the fear gone all suffering ends.

    What the mind invents, the mind destroys. But the real is not
    invented and cannot be destroyed. Hold on to that over which
    the mind has no power.


    In Lak'ech
    tim

    ** Bhagavad Gita 13:30

    One who can see that all activities are performed by the body,
    which is created of material nature, and sees that the Self does
    nothing, actually sees.
    Last edited by tim; 15th December 2015 at 00:56.
    Minimum Awareness, Maximum Problems
    Maximum Awareness, Minimum Problems
    Total Awareness, No Problems!

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  31. Link to Post #56
    United States Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Then, if the body and things and mind are lies, to what end have they been created?

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Is our REAL substance running away from some unpleasant truth by entering the world we know?

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    Avalon Member StandingWave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    There is no process
    by which One
    can possibly become
    what One already is.

    Being IS -
    it cannot be attained,
    it already is.

    By no logic
    can One meaningfully say
    "I am not".

    Being is awareness of Being,
    always - in all ways.

    Experiencing.
    Last edited by StandingWave; 15th December 2015 at 03:29. Reason: Clarity
    "There is nothing in a caterpillar that tells you it's going to be a butterfly." R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Avalon Member Enola's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    If we think back, we were all enlightened as children or the first years of our lives. We just need to back-track.

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    Avalon Member animovado's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

    What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
    Is that even possible?
    Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

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    Mauritius Avalon Member Guish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

    Quote Posted by animovado (here)
    Quote Posted by Jhonie (here)
    Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.
    Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

    What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
    Is that even possible?
    Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.
    He's got a point. Everything is an interpretation by the mind and not necessarily the truth. This is why the term nothingness is used in Zen.
    Experience reality beyond the senses
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