Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

[Rich]

Good for you Chris, but there comes a point where you have to drop all beliefs, including the belief in enlightenment. Because this is always a concept of a state that can be reached in time - a future that the mind projects, it is this projection of a future that has to be dropped, at least for a moment (if you check my signature it says it right there).

You believe in these gurus...who gave them the authority on truth?
As another bob said, your real guru is your higher self...whether this is true or not I don't know, but it is something to consider.

You can't learn if you already have your mind made up and fixed....brings me to a nice quote from the Course:

Those who remember always that they know nothing,
and who have become willing to learn everything, will learn it.

Think not you understand anything until you pass the test of perfect peace,
for peace and understanding go together and never can be found alone.

[greybeard]

But that is the point Rich I dont follow any Guru though they do say its the guru within that is the teacher.
I dont give authority to any one but I dont disregard what is pointed to.
Ive gone beyond that and channelled teaching--all these are valuable but can only take one so far --at best they point to the Truth.
Ive listened to and used many including ACIM
Sanskrit one of the most complex languages has the oldest teaching ie the Upanisheds.
The weight of teaching is enormous modern and ancient and can be summed up a "I am That" nothing else is needed.
Only consciousness exists--call it God, Brahman or any other label.
I dont have a concept of Enlightenment as it is unknowable as an object.
I accept it is what I am and does not need any outside frame of reference to support that.
I awake in the morning and instantly know I exist

Chris

[TomKat]

Posted by Rich (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What do you believe would be a more worthy pursuit for your life?

I think it's individual. For me, my main life's work has been the clearing of the etheric body. When we are born we have very high spiritual and creative potential. But fairly soon the accumulated crap of previous lifetimes, both one's own and those of ancestors, attaches to the child's etheric body, to which attach entities, until we are operating on a fraction of our potential. But that's just me. A Beethoven or a housewife would have a very different life purpose.

In this pursuit I've reached high (and low) states of awareness, which are always temporary. I lost interest in "peak experiences" and am only interested in naturally being how I was born to be, without having to play mind games to hold onto any particular state.

[TomKat]

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by Jhonie (here)
Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What makes you think enlightenment is temporary TomKat?
The sages say the Self, as in Self Realization, is the only thing that is permanent.
Chris

In my experience, there is no capital E, permanent Enlightenment. There are states of awareness one can temporarily own, as you go up the ladder from workaday self to God awareness. You're not going to hold onto that God viewpoint the next day at work, and you probably wouldn't want to. No one state of awareness is appropriate all the time -- that's just mental illness.

I have come to the uncomfortable realization that life goes on, and on, forever. There is no way off the treadmill. Your soul is like a car that needs to keep going forever, so it behooves you to maintain it. Not by pretended or temporary feelings of escape, but by keeping it pure so that the reflexive universe naturally bends to accommodate it, the same way it does in childhood.

[greybeard]

Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
There is still a person experiencing it.
True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
Its a complex subject yet so simple.
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
For me---
Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904

[TomKat]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
There is still a person experiencing it.
True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
Its a complex subject yet so simple.
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
For me---
Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904

I read his one post. Just sounds like one person's peak experience.
I like Eckhart Tolle. But when I listen to him I can feel him keeping himself mentally poised so as not to use any effort. As I said, there is no one state that is appropriate all the time, but it's nice he found one he likes to use most of the time. I prefer to just be myself with no pose or poise, just be, naturally, without making a conscious decision to be a certain way. Mental poses will be lost between lives, and are probably the reason people spend a whole life trying to recover some forgotten secret way of being.

[AutumnW]

I just read a few posts here on the last page. Greybeard, Rich and Tomkat thanks so much for your thoughts. Leaves me pondering!

[Ernie Nemeth]

The older I get the more my mind rests in thoughts of death and dying.

The more I learn the more I understand I know nothing.

This all points to an idea I have not heard anywhere else...

Could it be that this whole life experience is actually just for the opportunity to die properly?

The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.

Could it be that in our state of complete ignorance, where mere speculation is the best we can do, could it be we learn one thing at death - that we were never alive!

To realize that in death we are born to our eternal lives might be the key to not coming back here again.

Is this just bias because of thinking about death - or could this be the way to defeat the unseen hand at recycling souls?

[greybeard]

Those who had Near Death Experiences say that the other side is more real than here.
Enlighted sages say the same.
Nasargadatta said we are the children of a barren mother---the unborn.
Never born--eternal--- a clear definition of eternal is --no beginning no end--timeless.
Thats our true nature.
Ive gone beyond worrying about death--though I would like to drift off without being a nuisance to relatives.
I have no desire to come here again---this life is ok now but there are many years I would not wish on anyone, in particular myself for a repeat performance.

Chris

[Rich]

Posted by greybeard (here)
One of the best bits of advice I read is that Enlightenment is almost an accident --you cant make it happen, but through spiritual practise you can become accident prone.

To me the notion of "accident" seems highly illogical.
Even things that we think are accidents, are really not.
For example a few months ago my body fell off the ladder and others called it an accident,
but I knew all along it was not an accident because I've had that thought several times before it happened.
Trying to avoid something can make it happen because you are holding it in your mind.

It is impossible the Son of God be merely driven by events outside of him.
It is impossible that happenings that come to him were not his choice.
His power of decision is the determiner of every situation in which he seems to find himself by chance or accident.
No accident nor chance is possible within the universe as God created it, outside of which is nothing.

[greybeard]

The problem with a quote out of context is that the context makes it understandable
Its against a background of the advice not to desire anything even enlightenment--desire strengthens the ego.
You cant make enlightenment happen its not down to the seeming individual.
That makes it similar to an evnt out with your control--no one chooses to make an acciednt happen yet they do.
Enlightenment is almost accidental because there does not seem to be a cause.
If there was any one could repeat it.
There are cases in history where it just happene without any spiritual desire for it or even knowledge of it.
Ramana Maharshi a classic or even Eckhart Tolle
However the other sie of the coin is that there are no accidents--The Universe brings everything about.
The rain falls by Divine order but it does not choose whose parade to rain on.---smiling

Ps it really meansthat your chances of enlightenment are higher if you continue spiritual practise.
Your more likley to be hit by lightening if you stand under a tree in a lightening storm.
But you cant make that happen either.

[Eva2]

Just a shout out to you Greybeard. I pretty much read all your posts now and I am picking up so much from them. I often have a good long think after reading them - they seem to act as triggers for me. So, a big thank you for your wonderful contributions.

[greybeard]

Your "shout" really appreciated Jill.
Many thanks
Chris

[Rich]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing.
If someone thinks they know the truth then they can't learn it, they are stuck in their beliefs.
Not knowing is more far reaching than can be comprehended - it can apply to anything.

[O Donna]

Posted by Rich (here)
Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing.

Can one un-see what has already been seen?





(Thought I would bring some 'light' to the party)

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by O Donna (here)

Posted by Rich (here)
Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing.

Can one un-see what has already been seen?





(Thought I would be some 'light' to the party)

You can't unsee it, but you can stop "believing" it (granted that takes practice)

[greybeard]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by O Donna (here)

Posted by Rich (here)
Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing.

Can one un-see what has already been seen?





(Thought I would be some 'light' to the party)

You can't unsee it, but you can stop "believing" it (granted that takes practice)

Then there are a few crack pots here--smiling.
Signatures say a lot.
Chris

[Shadowman]

Posted by greybeard (here)
The problem with a quote out of context is that the context makes it understandable
Its against a background of the advice not to desire anything even enlightenment--desire strengthens the ego.
You cant make enlightenment happen its not down to the seeming individual.
That makes it similar to an evnt out with your control--no one chooses to make an acciednt happen yet they do.
Enlightenment is almost accidental because there does not seem to be a cause.
If there was any one could repeat it.
There are cases in history where it just happene without any spiritual desire for it or even knowledge of it.
Ramana Maharshi a classic or even Eckhart Tolle
However the other sie of the coin is that there are no accidents--The Universe brings everything about.
The rain falls by Divine order but it does not choose whose parade to rain on.---smiling

Ps it really meansthat your chances of enlightenment are higher if you continue spiritual practise.
Your more likley to be hit by lightening if you stand under a tree in a lightening storm.
But you cant make that happen either.

Well said Chris. As always your advice is imbued with a rare clarity and compassion.

A common misunderstanding on the Great Way is to confuse the Absolute with the Relative, in relation to Awakening and the "Pathless Path" to Awakening. Some assume that as the ego is unreal, and as you are "That" already, spiritual practice is unecessary...

M: You are what you are, timelessly, but of what use is it to you unless you know it and act
on it? Your begging bowl may be of pure gold, but as long as you do not know it, you are a
pauper. You must know your inner worth and trust it and express it in the daily sacrifice of
desire and fear.

Others conclude that wei wu wei or "dropping" doing/action includes dropping all "effort" including set spiritual practice. This is erroneous. The tree that you metaphorically refer to above IS correct spiritual practice. Both Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta are very clear in this regard...

M: Learning words is not enough. You may know the theory, but without the actual
experience of yourself as the impersonal and unqualified centre of being, love and bliss,
mere verbal knowledge is sterile.
Q: Then, what am I to do?
M: Try to be, only to be. The all-important word is ‘try’. Allot enough time daily for sitting
quietly and trying, just trying, to go beyond the personality, with its addictions and
obsessions. Don’t ask how, it cannot be explained. You just keep on trying until you
succeed. If you persevere, there can be no failure. What matters supremely is sincerity,
earnestness; you must really have had surfeit of being the person you are, now see the
urgent need of being free of this unnecessary self-identification with a bundle of memories
and habits. This steady resistance against the unnecessary is the secret of success.


M: All directions are within the mind! I am not asking you to look in any particular direction.
Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling ‘I am’. The ‘I
am’ is not a direction. It is the negation of all direction. Ultimately even the ‘I am’ will have
to go, for you need not keep on asserting what is obvious. Bringing the mind to the feeling
‘I am’ merely helps in turning the mind away from everything else.
Q: Where does it all lead me?
M: When the mind is kept away from its preoccupations, it becomes quiet. If you do not
disturb this quiet and stay in it, you find that it is permeated with a light and a love you
have never known; and yet you recognize it at once as your own nature. Once you have
passed through this experience, you will never be the same man again; the unruly mind
may break its peace and obliterate its vision; but it is bound to return, provided the effort is
sustained; until the day when all bonds are broken, delusions and attachments end and life
becomes supremely concentrated in the present.


But still, the jiva which has forgotten
itself will not become the Self through mere mediate
knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual
impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again
and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived,
identifying itself with the body, etc. Will a person become a
high officer by merely looking at him? Is it not by steady
effort in that direction that he could become a highly placed
officer? Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental
identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in
the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained
manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would
become the Self.l4
The reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly
will destroy the mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like
the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It
is this state that is called release.

In La'kech
tim

PS In keeping with the Meme theme...

[O Donna]

Seems for one to perform things like driving safely there must be suspension of disbelief otherwise, what cliff, what abyss?

Common wakeful life and suspension of disbelief are invariably linked.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by O Donna (here)
Seems for one to perform things like driving safely there must be suspension of disbelief otherwise, what cliff, what abyss?

Common wakeful life and suspension of disbelief are invariably linked.

I disagree somewhat ...

I think "suspension of disbelief", as you put it, is what caused us to get distracted from the reality of the illusion in the first place - it just took some time - (the "Fall of Man".)

Understanding that the illusion has persistence allows you to not have to suspend the understanding that it is an illusion (allows you to retain full "belief" and understanding) and sidesteps the fallacy of falling into the trap of replacing the understanding of reality with the appearances of the illusion.