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Thread: The Problems with Facebook

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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    In its Pong? infancy.

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    In its Pong? infancy.
    that's sort of a technology reference, as "Pong" was one of the very first video games....

    we went from "pong":


    to

    The Division (random example of next gen game):


    The inference there is that Facebook will go from what it is now (ie pong) to what it will be (the division); a vastly more complex version of its original self.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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    Brazil Avalon Member Hawkwind's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    One theory that I read a while back is that humanity experienced a very sharp upswing in terms of cultural and scientific achievement after the advent of city-states. The reason given for this was that the existence of centers of commerce greatly facilitated the exchange of information and ideas. I believe the advent of the internet, particularly the social networking aspects of it, is serving much the same role. Yes, many people use Facebook to post pictures of their latest meal or their latest achievement in Candy Crush. I don't tend to add those people to my friends list. The people I do tend to add are every bit as aware of what's going on in the world as folks here at Avalon. Of late, I've actually been getting a better return on time invested there than I have here. Sure, I occasionally engage in discussions which turn into unproductive arguments, but by and large, I share useful info and ideas with others who are interested in such things and they do the same with me. The main difference between here and there (at least from my perspective) is that Facebook represents a much, much larger and broader cross-section of humanity. The upside to that being a far greater potential audience. The downside, a far greater need to be selective about who I interact with. Like most tools, it can be helpful or harmful depending upon how its used.

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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote The inference there is that Facebook will go from what it is now (ie pong) to what it will be (the division); a vastly more complex version of its original self.

    Well we're playing with matches, there may well be seeds of good in various concepts but there are also seeds of chaos and unfortunately I see a dystopian future approaching.

    EDIT: That sounds like I'm a scared little tortoise peeping tentatively out of it's shell and neither understanding or liking what it sees. There is actually far more behind my brief comment but right now my communication centres are feeling low so I will have to elaborate at some other time.
    Last edited by Ewan; 7th January 2016 at 19:40.

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    Costa Rica Avalon Member ulli's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I just shared this on my FB page.

    If everyone on Avalon were to add this to their home page it would go viral in no time and get to be seen by millions:


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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    It's a huge campus hit. It's also a creepy, exploitive, interactive, communal and hypnotically addictive form of superficial judgment.

    In other words, social networking.

    In its Pong infancy.
    I'd like to say a little more about this. I really do think about this often.

    Sometimes, the mods here on the forum feel we have to make a decision, and we unsubscribe someone. This is the more complex, slightly-more-than-one-dimensional equivalent of 'unfriending' someone on Facebook. A click of the mouse consigns them to ó well, a different place, but not here.

    It's like killing someone with a drone strike. You don't have to look them in the eye as you pull the trigger.

    Contrary to internet rumor, we (the mods) really do take great care with such decisions. Most people might never believe what care we take.

    (Ask Curt, the newest member of the mods team. He doesn't know I'm writing this, but he may [possibly!] testify to how much we care about people who we feel have become problems to the community. We quite often write to people we've unsubscribed. I often do this personally. Mike, too, may have something to say about this. And others.)

    But the at-a-safe-distance, remote-control aspect of this always bothers me. If I click the mouse to unsubscribe someone, I am very acutely aware that in that moment I am (to some degree) changing their lives, or maybe hurting them very terribly. It's no simple or easy matter ó and should not be.

    But it's awfully easy to do. To click a button with a mouse probably burns up a thousandth of a calorie. It's not like you have to engage them in a swordfight ó or, more energy-depleting still, meet them in person to explain.

    Firing people is what the (also very good) George Clooney film Up in the Air was all about. His character's full-time job was to meet with employees and fire them personally, taking all the care that was needed... until he was himself replaced by a computer interface.

    It was deliciously ironic, and while it was a kind of semi-comedy, it was also a very thought-provoking commentary on our modern era of impersonal, digital shortcuts.

    (Aside: for anyone who's seen the film, the montage of people's on-camera reactions when being fired were all real people, not actors, real-world, really-fired-at-that-moment, some people reduced to tears, used in the movie with each person's later full consent. That discovery alone was enough to make me go watch the movie over, very carefully, a second time.)

    Much has also been written about the phenomenon of 'trolling'. This is closely related to everything we've been talking about. Would someone who's being a jerk online be so crassly abusive to another person to their face? Some would, maybe in a bar after a few drinks, but most of us surely would not.

    Anyone reading this, whether a member or not: do ask yourself how readily you'd say in person to someone's face, in a chair opposite you a few feet away, what you're just about to write, under the safe cloak of a maybe almost untraceable pseudonym.

    The illusion of protected anonymity can bring out the worst in us... it's the drone strike thing, again. We can say or do what we wish ó almost ó with no personal risk, no personal responsibility, no recourse for the person attacked, or digitally injured, or, sometimes, digitally 'killed'.

    I hope this has been as interesting to read as it was for me to write.

    If this is somehow off-topic... then

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    Netherlands Avalon Member Eram's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    One thing in favor of facebook:
    Many people who espouse the same ideologies form groups on facebook and exchange ideas and information there.

    For instance: I am member of a Dutch facebook group of people who do not vaccinate their children.
    It acts in many ways like a forum. Information is shared, people are being supported when in need, news is being shared and such.
    Groups like these can easily grow to tens of thousands of members.

    So in a way, facebook is also acting as a platform for awakening.
    Last edited by Eram; 7th January 2016 at 20:07. Reason: spelling

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    a very thought-provoking commentary on our modern era of impersonal, digital shortcuts.
    I also see it as an unintentional commentary on how committed we are to the idea of 100% employment and how this false requirement is subtly re-enforced at all turns... The structure, the CONTEXT of these movies is what interests me... the subtle cultural re-enforcement of oppressive / labor force / dis-empowering group think that we eventually ALL defend through our actions, language mannerisms and personal opinions.

    Maybe it's not UN-intentional... maybe that WAS the intention the whole time; show a popular (for the time) subject (to "hook" people in... most of our stories are the same story with a different "hook" (context)) with systematic re-enforcement of the base programming: UN-motivated, powerless working class nobody.

    For example:

    Most Americans will "break the ice" in a very interesting way:

    "so what do you do?"

    such a simple question, but the implications of that being the first question are huge: we build identities around our "work" & we think of others in the same way (semi cast system).... If I were the global elite I'd be very proud of my accomplishments.


    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    One thing in favor of facebook:
    Many people who espouse the same ideologies form groups on facebook and exchange ideas and information there.
    That is a very dangerous situation also though.

    That is like a dry tinderbox for Disinfo, those types of "echo chambers" where everyone agrees can quickly propagate false information since they are all like minded.

    the lack of diversity in thinking by joining these like minded groups is very stiffing and limiting & can be supportive of the divide and conquer tactic we are constantly being assaulted with.
    Last edited by TargeT; 7th January 2016 at 20:06.
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    Avalon Member viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by kirolak (here)
    I do have a Facebook account, but it is used only for activism. . . thousands of "friends", but I know only about 6 of them. I just hope that the message of freedom for all species somehow filters through. . . . Hope it's OK for me to post your joke on my page, Bill?
    Yes..me too. I find it quite useful for exactly this and try my best to awaken as many as I can, although get a lot of stick about it. But try we must.

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    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...are-the-change

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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)

    For example:

    Most Americans will "break the ice" in a very interesting way:

    "so what do you do?"

    such a simple question, but the implications of that being the first question are huge: we build identities around our "work" & we think of others in the same way (semi cast system).... If I were the global elite I'd be very proud of my accomplishments.
    Japan actually goes one better. People (especially people who work for large corporations) often introduce themselves by first stating what company they work for, eg- "Sony no Takhashi desu". The literal translation of which would be I'm Takahashi who belongs to Sony."

    Sorry for the aside-

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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Why not another alternative? How much does it cost to get something like that going, without the need to sell customer's info?
    Wait a minute...........It's here and here's a link...

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/forum.php

    The cool things are people doing good within phoney structures presented.

    It all plays on the ego...(my)Face..book,,,,,the "I"phone (ego-phone-y), a self(ish)ie, My(not your)Space....just the name alone tells me there is no room for US, WE, OUR...and when the name for something that large is communal and sharing I'll stand off, because we know them. In fact there are probably some very good small groups, services, help based on the OUR, US, WE names.

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  23. Link to Post #32
    Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I can definitely say there's a lot of care and attention that goes into every decision I've seen the mods team make.

    It's no joke. There are mod discussion threads that go on for days and weeks on how best to help out a member who's having a rough time.

    I'm surprised how much time is devoted to making good decisions.

    There's virtually no shooting from the hip that I've seen. There's A LOT of deliberation before anyone is asked to chill out, or is sent on a vacation, much less unsubscribed.

    Anyway, just wanted to report that. Apologies for the thread-jacking.

    Last edited by Curt; 7th January 2016 at 21:01.

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    United States Avalon Member bettye198's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Like many who have posted here, I have never had a Facebook Acct. Sometimes in a forum someone posts a great find from FB and I may copy the link but again, not a member. I would rather align my addiction with forums with intelligent thought provoking subject matter like Avalon.

    I have family members who have UNfriended family members on FB. Can that be anything good?
    When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant, disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandparent, dignified as a king. -- I Ching

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    Avalon Member CD7's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    WELP..........FB has been a great hub for "alternative" networking.....I don't do all those general fb things anymore...blue moon if I do...There are many who are gaining tools..instruction...knowledge...RBE networking from their connections ...I STILL have not connected with ANYONE like I can find in the ethers of the net! I must be on the wrong island!! 😨


    FB seems to be splintering off into different branches.....I only like to friend those of like minds so eventually most of my feed reads like " The New World Gazette! " Lol.. Would eventually love to print my timeline down the road as I have gathered alot of intelligent " how to's" and connections to Green Projects across the globe . ...Micheal E V Knight Knight is an awesome Fb hub for everything resourced based ...eco friendly...alot of connections 😊 The being Watched thing.....IS everywhere
    We X Billions want to change the world and it appears we are......
    PARADISE IS POSSIBLE EVERYWHERE 4 EVERYONE

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    Avalon Member tessfreq's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I feel my anger creep up just thinking of all the opinions I have about FB.
    (I apologize for repeating a few points others have made Ė took me too long to compose, and I suppose itís more a personal journey with FB)

    The story of a socially awkward guy who created something brilliant to help the situation, to what we now have, is two different animals.

    I liked FB at first. I had an account. It was great to have a way to connect with my big family. It thrilled me to see all the kids get to know each other when they lived all over the world. I loved being able to collect family pictures that Iíd never get the old fashion way. I would be waiting a long time for someone to send me photos in the mail.

    FB created such a nice easy way to stalk people, also. I would learn things about them I would never know. Like their friends and family, their leanings on politics, their favorite type of music, and even if they were home currently. This new ability lost its charm quickly, though. I felt like I was being seduced with all this personal information about people. I didnít even have to talk to them, and visa-versa. (better expressed in Billís post #26)

    Even if I did see the good things about FB, the algorithms, data science, facial recognition, and blind tests they do on the population just creeps me the heck out. Thatís just a partial list of what made me delete my account.

    Sometimes it feels like FB scoops my own world, even without an account, because someone in my midst has one and is hungry for content. Thereís an annoying adjustment to be made in r/l conversations when someone tells you about your life when you havenít talked to them in months. Itís created a rebellious crusade in me to not share anything content worthy without a disclaimer of Ďdo not to share my life on FBí.

    I remember before I deleted my account, trying to figure out how to have this connection to my family that was created by FB, but, to not be exploited in the process. The choices I had were few. Either I do it the old fashion way (which I tried with no responses), or try and move all my people to a site that doesnít creep me out (also didnít work), or to not think about all that and allow the TOS to rule my information, which meant agreeing to become a lab rat for those who have other things in mind then allowing me to have warm family hugs.

    What you can learn with mathematics is amazing if you have willing test subjects, especially if they donít realize they are test subjects. Instead of putting a survey in everyones mail boxes and hope you get your 10% back, based on mailer stats, you run surveys by posting negative news in the feeds, allowing people to knee-jerk react to hardly any information and then run the numbers.

    I watched this show about the magic of mathematics. In one part it had this very interesting mathematical equation. They had a jar of jellybeans and asked a bunch of people to guess how many. Once they got to a certain number of guesses (it was 160 in this example) they ran all the numbers to get the median and this number magically was the correct number of beans in the jar. When I think about this equation being used with the data collection on FB, I come up with some scenarios that could be used for the good or the bad. Either or, we have no access to this information even though members are the source. (Like I couldnít contact FB and say Ďhey I have an idea, can you run this for me?í)

    In conclusion, FB has a life of itís own now, and lotís of players enjoying the new easy way to collect data from itís members, for numerous experiments, in a varied of fields, without paying a dime to you. I canít shake that one.

    Ö.and
    Yes this is modern society, but is it mandatory to participate? Modern society dictates I have online communications for banking, bill payments, healthcare, insurance, email shopping. I believe the internet to be a vulnerable system in regards to privacy! Is it mandatory I use it? No. There are still some manual methods in place, but even if you keep it on paper, someone else will type it into the computer. BlahÖ I am a dinosaur.
    ---- sorry, off topic.

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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I would like to share my short story about the addiction I had to face book.

    About 3 years ago I noticed that all of my attention was aimed at the activity on Facebook. I was posting things and just sitting there hip ng to get attention or to be "liked" by others. In some point idk what happened but I've noticed that it's ruining my life emotionally. One day I just said to my self that I have to stop with this nonsense and get back to real life where I meet my friends face to face and share with them my life with more then just letters on the screen. It was a hard addiction to overcome I must say. But today I rarely get on Facebook to communicate. My only activity there is to post alot of material to awake people in a specific group I've opened just for this matter.

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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I use it for games and politics and a happy thought or two when others are troubled.

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  35. Link to Post #38
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by 6pounder (here)
    I would like to share my short story about the addiction I had to face book.

    About 3 years ago I noticed that all of my attention was aimed at the activity on Facebook. I was posting things and just sitting there hip ng to get attention or to be "liked" by others. In some point idk what happened but I've noticed that it's ruining my life emotionally. One day I just said to my self that I have to stop with this nonsense and get back to real life where I meet my friends face to face and share with them my life with more then just letters on the screen. It was a hard addiction to overcome I must say..
    Thank you for that. And kudos to you!

    That's EXACTLY what happens to so many people. It's an addiction that takes us AWAY from reality. But you spotted it and kicked it.

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  37. Link to Post #39
    Avalon Member enfoldedblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    I see facebook as a tool -that of course comes with a price. Like any tool it is how you use it, AND what price you are willing to pay for that use. What I like about it is that I can shape my newsfeed so that all I see is interesting articles and comments and ideas from people and sites that I like and respect. I have connected with some pretty awesome people around the planet through interaction via FB. HOWEVER, there are some definite cons as well! For one, in terms of ethics and ideology, it is a bit like dancing with the devil. So much centralised power and control .. is clearly not a good thing! If there was an good alternative that respected privacy and was about the people... not the investors, I would jump ship for sure. Well in fact I have tried several times with alternatives like Ello ... but they never seemed to catch on ... as FB power and control is so difficult to try and challenge.
    I hope something shifts that allows an good alternative to rise up ... in the meantime I'll use FB ... and wash my hands when I'm done

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  39. Link to Post #40
    Australia Moderator
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    Default Re: The Problems with Facebook

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    But the at-a-safe-distance, remote-control aspect of this always bothers me. If I click the mouse to unsubscribe someone, I am very acutely aware that in that moment I am (to some degree) changing their lives, or maybe hurting them very terribly. It's no simple or easy matter ó and should not be.
    Glad to hear that Bill.

    Something that really shook my soda bottle up and made it fizz over...

    One day, I was on my son's computer with a friend and happened to come across a document folder.

    Within that document folder, was the typical "example" photos that Microsoft provide.

    It wasn't something personal so there was a thought to delete it.

    We took a look at what was inside the folder.

    It was a photo of a beautiful bird.

    My friends hand hovered over the "delete" button.

    A long pause followed....

    We just couldn't do it.

    What if we were deleting an entire species of birds in our ignorance of the true nature of consciousness?
    Unity within the diversity

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