+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

  1. Link to Post #1
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    20,206
    Thanks
    66,379
    Thanked 256,130 times in 18,647 posts

    Default The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    .
    I first read about this extraordinary, certainly true story many years ago — but this is the most complete and detailed account I've come across.

    For anyone who's never heard of this, it's a must-read article.

    From http://nabigfootsearch.com/Guestcolumnist.html

    THE ZANA AFFAIR


    This is the incredible story of Zana or Zanya, a hairy Wild Woman, known locally as an Abnauayu, or a really Abominable Snowman…Snow Woman in this case, or to some, called an Alma (female is Almasty) or Kaptar (from Khazakhstan), depending on the location. She is a feral relict hominoid from Stone Age prehistory distantly related to human beings, possibly Neanderthal some think.

    The species “Homo neanderhalensis” is not an ancestor of modern humans some research indicates, the mitochondrial DNA studies having shown that our two species have evolved separately. They are descended from a separate branch of the human family tree some 516,000 years ago, according to some research published in Nature Magazine. When modern man moved into Europe about 45,000 years ago, the Neanderthals were pushed into the wilds, supposedly going extinct, as the last known Neanderthal fossils are from 24,000 years ago.

    In contrast, Svante Paabo, a paleogeneticist at Germany’s Max Planck Institute determined from sequencing the Y-chromosome from a 49,000 year old Neandertal genome that some Cro-magnon’s possibly invited ladies to their cave for sex, and to have hybrid progeny…as any human who has ancestors from outside of Africa (where Neanderthals never lived) has one to four percent Neanderthal genes in their genetic makeup!

    Much of this ongoing Zana saga is based on the publications of The Russian scientists: Boris Porshnev, “The Struggle For Troglodytes;” “A Skeleton Still Buried and a Skull Unearthed: The Story of Zana;” by Igor Bourtsev; and from the popular 1996 book, “In the Footsteps of the Russian Snowman,” by Dmitri Bayanov. Hominologists, later they were considered cryptozoologists…people who study unknown creatures. I have little new to add, but have accumulated much of the scattered published information to assemble this article.

    Incredibly wild and vicious, Zana was captured with great difficulty in the forest by a local merchant in (about?) 1850, as was said by Apollon Dumaya, a local official who was told by his father of the capture. It was in the Ochamchir Region of Georgia in a gulch along the Adzyubzha River…and the merchant was astonished to see a young female Abnauyu in a meadow along the gulch living in Paleolithic innocence. Incredibly smart and disappearing a second before capture, she was finally outsmarted…the merchant left some red male underwear at the meadow where she was frequently seen and she was caught while putting the underwear over her head and hips.

    Named Zana (means black in Georgian) the creature was tied, and fighting back, was hit with cudgels and gagged with a mouth full of felt and finally shackled by her legs to a log. She was eventually put in a ditch, surrounded by a fence of sharpened logs and was living in squalor. There she growled and charged at laughing children who threw sticks and dirt clods at her. After some time she was finally considered somewhat tamed and then made “love” to…even giving birth to live half-breed children…thus, the strange saga of “The Zana Affair.”

    Near the end of the last century, Zana was probably sold as a curiosity to the handsome prince, D. M. Achba, titular head of the Zaadan region of Georgia in the late 1800’s. Achba passed this strange slave to his vassal Chelokua, who apparently sold her to the Nobleman Edgi Genaba who was passing through the region at the time.

    Genaba took poor Zana in chains and shackles as a slave to the village Tkhina on the Mokva River where his estate was located, some 48 miles from Sukhmia, the capitol city of Abkhazia and near the Black Sea in Georgia.

    She was thrown into a caged stone enclosure sans her chains and ropes, and as she acted like a wild beast, food was simply thrown to her. She dug a hole in the ground where she slept for the next three years. Zana was a local curiosity and surrounding villagers would come by to poke her with a stick, chuckling as she would grab for the stick, growl, howl, and menacingly bare her big glaringly white teeth.

    Eventually becoming tame, Zana was tethered in a fenced enclosure near the house under an awning. Over time she became domesticated and was released to roam the hillsides free of shackles. Zana did not roam far though, preferring to remain near her food, but she could not endure the warm rooms of indoor human cultures, and slept outdoors, still in a hole in the ground that she had dug under the awning.

    Zoologist Professor Alexander Mashdovtsev first heard of and studied the amazing story of Zana, and with Boris Porshnev, gathered many of the following descriptions from locals who still recalled her.

    Zana could not speak, even after several decades of living with humans, had never ever learned a word of the native Abhkaz language. She could only make inarticulate sounds, unexpected laughs, mutters or cries when she was poked with a stick or otherwise irritated. One sound done well was the imitation of a squeaking gate, which seemed to make her happy. She could recognize her own name though, and would do simple chores…like carrying with one hand heavy 110 pound sacks of ground corn flour that she had ground from the water-mill by the river, collecting firewood, removing her masters boots, or fetching water. She was fearful when Edgi Genaba shouted at her despite her huge size, but others were afraid of Zana because she was known to bite, and whenever she came to the house, the women only came near when she was in a calm and gentle mood. Adults told Zana-monster stories to their children to make them behave, although Zana was never known to attack any of them…”Zana’s gonna’ get cha’ if your bad.” Perhaps if she was poked with a stick when free?

    Zana had features of both Mongoloid and Negroid extraction, and her whole body was very tall with black or dark gray skin, and reddish hair that covered her body like a mass of felt, while on the head it was described as being tousled and a thick shiny black. The thick reddish-black hair then ran down the middle of her back like an animal mane. She was said to be six and a half feet tall, and had huge red eyes. Zana was also broad and had huge buttocks and pendulous breasts, and was quite muscular and could splay her toes wide. Her hideously broad face with high cheekbones and ape-like nostrils turned forward was pure animal though. The muzzle-like jaws had strong sharp teeth…strong enough to crack bones or nuts with. Also quite athletic, Zana could outrun the swiftest horses, or swim the waters of the swiftest river in flood stage at high tide, and do it all the year around. The nearby wild Mouki River was apparently an easy swim with her powerful arms and legs.

    Zana hated clothes, preferring to run around naked, even in the coldest winter which she seemed completely resistant to, and if dressed, would tear the clothes to shreds , though she eventually learned to wear a loin cloth. Strange, as she was captured trying to put on red underclothes. Another strange habit was her curiosity about rocks, spending time stacking or cracking them apart. Often she was seen cooling off by lying in a pond with the water buffalo, or bathing in some icy mountain spring. Zana liked to climb trees, or roam the nearby hills, using a stick to fend off dogs or other perils.

    Zana was a glutinous eater, taking anything offered her, like meat or hominy, and eating with her bare hands as she never learned how to eat with a spoon and plate.

    Often Zena would be seen to climb trees for their fruit, and would pull down and shred grape vines. She drank wine, enough to get quite smashed, lying in a swooning state and sleeping for hours…and the locals learned to give her wine to make her drunk. Perhaps where the term “Monster Mash” came from?

    Zana became pregnant several times, from several different fathers…an important clue to geneticists . The local men had forced her to drink wine, and it didn’t take long to get drunk…and then she became sexually aggressive. And, there was always someone to make love to a monster. During drunken orgies Edgi Genaba was said to offer a prize to the man who would mount Zana, and the prize would always be given to a winner…if even himself.

    After the birth of a human-type child without assistance, Zana would take the newborn to wash it in the cold waters of the spring or the frozen waters of the river…the first two hybrid babies quickly died from exposure. Eventually the local villagers would take the babies away from the silly mother, nursing and raising the half-monster babies themselves. This occurred four times…two sons and two daughters, who were reared as human. There was an unconfirmed report of another child that ran off to join with mother’s people in the desolate Caucasus Mountains. Seems doubtful though, as the child had to grow up locally and would have probably been named and described.

    The sons were the youngest Khwit, and then Dzhanda, while the daughters were young Gamasa and the oldest Kodzhanar. People had no idea who their fathers were, although many years later during a census taking, the children were listed as offspring of a local resident, Kamshish Sabekia, who acknowledged “winning prizes” with Zana before he was finally married. All four of the children adopted the family name of Sabekia. Zana’s youngest son Khwit and his sister Gamasa were raised by Genaba’s wife. It was rumored that they were both sired by Edgi Genaba himself. All the children were fertile, and left descendents scattered across Abkhazia.

    The boys had dark-grayish skin and were said to have normal faces, Khwit having thick curly hair and very full lips. Apparently the genes of the father were dominant, overruling the mothers line of descent.

    Khwit could work, talk, and reason like other villagers, had a social life, but was powerful, and belligerent…quick to pick a fight. He often had fights with other villagers. Like his mother, Khwit didn’t like children as they would get into his garden to steal pears and grapes…though not poking him like with mom. Khwit was said to be not only a very strong man but was difficult to live with as he was very violent. Khwit once got into a fight with a relative who jumped him. He defended himself but the relative hit him with a mattock and put a deep gash in his right arm near the elbow. The arm had to be amputated, though he could still do his work on the collective farm. A local official recalls the incredibly strong Khwit plowing his lot with only his left arm. Khwit was also said to be able to lift a man in a chair off of the ground with very powerful jaws. Dzhanda, the other son was quite talented and became an accomplished pianist.

    Aging, Khwit moved to the town of Tkvarcheli where he finally died. He lived until 1954 being 65 or 70 years old, and was taken back to be buried near his mother Zana, who had died in 1890, in the family cemetery in Tkhina village in the Ochamchiri District of Abkhazia. Some note the importance of Zana being buried in the family cemetery of the Genabas, as if she were part of that family. During her life, she showed little sign of aging, having no grey hair and retained her teeth.

    Zana’s grandchildren were also said to be dark skinned, with Negroid features, and extremely strong, and it has been noted by geneticists that the hybrid offspring of Khwit were viable and not sterile. Khwit Sebekia was married twice, and sired two daughters and a son. Igor Bourtsev located most of Zana’s descendents, although one daughter had been electrocuted the prior year of his investigation. Robert Kukubava granted permission for Igor to reproduce photos from the family album. Daughter Raisa and her brother Shuliko are similar to Khwit with similar lower jaws and protruding cheekbones. His older daughter Tatyana has no resemblance to Zana except for the eyes, though photos of Khwit and his sister bear a resemblance to the description of Zana.

    Later, several Russian anthropological expeditions attempted and failed to locate Zana’s bones. Also, it had been difficult to obtain permission to disinter the graves in the cemetery. Fortunately an old Abkhazian colleague was appointed as a local council official and was able to grant the necessary permission. Another official, Apollon Dumava, the former council official recalled that his older relatives remembered Zana, and she was said to have curvy hips that attracted the attention of the local men.

    The first expedition was in September 1964 when archaeologist V.S. Orelkin and Professor Boris Porshnev searched but were unable to locate the gravesite in the Tkhina cemetery. Returning again in 1965 they were accompanied by Yury Voronov who later became Vice Premier of Abkhazia (but was killed in 1995). The cemetery was located and was found overgrown with bracken fern, but Khwit’s ten year old marked grave mound was easily found. It was said by the last of the family relatives,70 year old Kenton, that Zana’s grave was under a pomegranate tree. Excavating there, only the remains of one of Zana’s grandchildren that had died at an early age was found.

    On the next two expeditions, nothing was found, but in October 1965 the possible remains of Gamasa were located and the skull collected. It was small and had definite features that appeared to be paleoanthropic.

    After the passing of Prof. Porshnev, young Igor D. Bourtsev and Dimitri Bayanov led expeditions to the area in 1971, 1975, and 1978. They were unable to locate Zana’s grave either, despite digging in adverse conditions; seemingly endless downpours of rain, and in sticky clay earth.

    It was then decided in 1971 to locate and excavate Khwit’s grave which was well marked, and remove the skull. Accompanied by the famous Professor of paleontology Nikolay Bourchak-Abramovich assisting with their spade work, Igor Bourtsev excavated the easily located grave of Khwit, removed the skull and took it to Moscow with the other skull that was located. The skulls are now believed to rest at the Moscow State University Institute of Anthropology.

    Igor D. Bourtsev, later becoming a cryptozoologist studying unknown species, took the exhumed skulls to Moscow for study of their modern and ancient features. The results from the Khwit skull were published at the Relict Hominoid Research Seminar and the Moscow Naturalists’ Society in 1987, coauthored with M.A. Kolodieva, as “Results of a Preliminary Investigation of a Skull from the village of Tkhina, Abkhaz ASSR” (in Russian).

    Physical anthropologists M. A. Kolodieva and M. M. Gerasimova found that the skull was larger than normal male skulls from the region in the collection of the Moscow State University Institute of Anthropology. The facial section of the skull was significantly larger than typical Abkhaz types…the superciliary cranial contour being grater than the maximum of some fossil skulls, and are compared to the Neolithic Vovnigi II skulls of the fossil series at the Institute. It was also noted that the back of the cranium is of the “Homo sapiens” type, without a knot, and that the brow ridge was also of a normal size and had little marking. It was mentioned that the brow ridge of Khwit was even larger than that ascribed to Zana, the supposed Neanderthal…possibly as it was from a male. The overall peculiar features of the skull were also noted in the greater development of the skull’s two foramina mentale of the lower jaw (circular opening in jaw), the intrusive bones of the sagittal suture (across front to back, joins two side parietal bones), and the inca bone (separate skull bone often found in Inca mummies). Gerasiomva, suggests that the skull should have a more detailed study.

    Another female skull was unearthed also at the Tkhin cemetery. The skeleton was buried on its side with the legs bent next to Khwit’s grave, with a mirror at the head indicating that it was female. The skull was more robust than that of local women, and was noted to have a large projecting jaw. In the grave was found a rubber shoe branded 1888. From the date, this was assumed to be Zana, and was extremely exciting to researchers, as this would be the first time they had found the remains of an Abnauayu, or Almasty. Except…the anthropological analysis indicated that it was from a black woman who had somehow made it to the Caucuses…now what?

    Next, a DNA check was due after the August 2006 Russian newspaper Komsomol’skaja Pravda had an article on the skull examinations from the supposed relic Almasty. Igor Bourtsev was invited to have both skulls analyzed during a visit to the US, and Bourtsev replied on the Mugamir Russian website that he had visited New York July 13th through the 20th (2009) when the DNA of the skulls was examined by the New York University. The results were made public on the National Geographic program, “Is It Real? Russian Bigfoot.” Bourtsev was interviewed and talked with a U.S. geneticist and an anthropologist. The idea was that Zana and her son Khwit were actually Neanderthal hybrids with similar genomes that had possibly survived into modern times, especially now that the entire Neandertal genome has been sequenced and examined by the Max Planck Institute’s Svante Paabo and his team in 2009 in Leipzog, Germany.

    Bourtsev said that the examination revealed that one of the skulls was of an Australoid type, possibly that of Khwit, and that the other female skull was of a completely unrelated African type…definitely not that of Zana. The visiting anthropologist said that even though there was a similar DNA relationship between the two skulls, the female skull showed many distinct morphological differences, like a strongly defined lower face and tooth prognathism (stuck out).

    Unfortunately for some of us Bigfoot fans…the mitochondrial DNA that was analyzed by the geneticist Todd Disotell from both of the skulls indicated that the shared female maternal relationship was of a human origin…not mutations of the supposed Neanderthal species, as Bourtsev thought, closing a thirty year debate between often belligerent cryptozooligsts. The skull of Zana is still missing, so there is still hope!

    This whole Zana Affaur tale reminds me of the popular novel “The Mammoth Hunters” by Jane Auel, telling of the young girl Ayla, living and reproducing hybrids with Neanderthals. I don’t recall if the human genes were dominant over the Neandertal.

    I wonder if Zana’s ghost is still searching for her son’s missing head and haunts the local villagers? It is said that Igor Bourtsev while digging through the muck took seriously ill with a strange disease that doctors were unable to diagnose.

    Summary

    So, what is Zana anyway? Ape, primitive man, or human? It is said that chimpanzee DNA is 98.5% human…not much room to squeeze the Neanderthal, australopithecine, Alma, Sasquatch, and other primitive types between. Most Bigfoot scientists say the creature is an ape, based on the fossil bones of an ancient ape, “Gigantopithecus blacki.” They stick to the idea almost religiously and won’t compromise much. Many Russian investigators have long opted for the Neandertal as a viable model. Perhaps the creature is an ape only in the sense of Desmond Morris describing humans as “The Naked Ape”…then we also are apes along with Sasquatch. Keep in mind that the great apes have 48 chromosomes, while humans only have 45.

    The clues lie in the structure of the DNA molecule and the hereditary traits…Zana could give birth to living human types that have grandchildren. There have been a total of 10 cases in Russia or China from 1912 to 1954 of other live births from wild women.

    Hotly denied some, more recently, DNA researchers, as opposed to Bigfoot researchers, think that Almas and the North American Sasquatch are human. And that the Sasquatch, Yeran, Kaptar, Yowie (Australia), Yeti, and Mapinguari (Amazon), plus the Alma, are all closely related cousins. My first personal thoughts were of a “Homo erectus (Neanderthal is a descendant of them)” for a model of the Bigfoot that had evolved to different forms in different environments, which even is how Darwin explained the variation in species from Galapogos specimens and observations. Note, the Neanderthal separated from “H. erectus” some 600,000 years ago.

    But some few of the scientists thought the often ape-like and often human appearing creatures were probably a form of human, very similar to us. My first exposure was from the geneticist Dr. Ruth McFarland in 1995 who presented evidence of the Washington State Bigfoot as being human at a Carson, WA, conference.

    More recently, I have time and again run across DNA evidence that suggested human…but at the time, to the scientists involved, all were “contaminated!” Even a sample I provided from the Zac Cave in Idaho was said to be contaminated.

    The Coy/Green Tennessee hair samples are a prime example of where some scientists began to see the light. Dr. Henner Fahrenbach tested a hair taken from the wrist of a Bigoot named Fox, and declared it to be human. Bob Daigle, a friend of Mary Green’s sent a hair sample to be tested for DNA by a geneticist (named only as Dan) who found nothing but human results, the sample sequence being an exact match. He sequenced 300 nucleotides from a mitochondrial gene called clytochrome b, and amplified a 1100 base pair fragment, then ran results against the GeneBank database…human.

    Control tests were run that were deliberately contaminated with dog and cat DNA…despite which still the Fox hair sample ended up testing human.

    The rest of the general scientific community and senior Bigfoot researchers deniability is reaching the point of being ridiculous. At some point, some very public agency or noted personage is going to declare that the creatures are actually human beings…just different from modern man through a subtle shift in the genetic code. Perhaps just a few genes are involved…though important ones, and they need to be identified.

    Once that point has been achieved, perhaps we can gain valuable insight into what the tiny genetic variations are between us and Zana. Those that add up to huge differences…maybe even the solution as to what caused the jump to “intelligence” in Africa some 200-140 thousand years ago when there was a giant intellectual break between “Homo erectus” and modern humans. The answer to why we are US.

    Ray Crowe
    Oct 31, 2010

    Sources for the article:

  2. The Following 47 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Agape (10th March 2016), angelfire (10th March 2016), araucaria (10th March 2016), Atlas (15th August 2016), Billy (10th March 2016), BMJ (20th March 2016), Calz (9th March 2016), Carmody (9th March 2016), Cidersomerset (9th March 2016), Constance (11th March 2016), Deega (9th March 2016), delfine (10th March 2016), Dennis Leahy (9th March 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), drneglector (10th March 2016), Earthship (9th March 2016), Ellisa (10th March 2016), Ewan (9th March 2016), fourty-two (9th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Iloveyou (10th March 2016), Ioneo (9th March 2016), Isserley (10th March 2016), Jean-Marie (9th March 2016), justntime2learn (9th March 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), lastlegs (10th March 2016), Lefty Dave (14th April 2016), LifeAngel (9th March 2016), Loren (11th March 2016), Michael Moewes (9th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), Professor (9th March 2016), Redstar Kachina (10th March 2016), Rocky_Shorz (10th March 2016), seko (10th March 2016), shadowstalker (16th August 2016), Shannon (15th August 2016), sirdipswitch (9th March 2016), Sophocles (9th March 2016), Star Tsar (16th August 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016), Watching from Cyprus (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (9th March 2016), wnlight (9th March 2016), Woody (9th March 2016), Zampano (9th March 2016)

  3. Link to Post #2
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    20,206
    Thanks
    66,379
    Thanked 256,130 times in 18,647 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    .
    Another very interesting article, this time from here:

    http://bigfootencounters.com/articles/alma-zana.htm

    In search of the Alma, wild snowmen of Russia



    August 22, 2009 -- Could the Alma be a relative of our Bigfoot?

    "Alma" is the most common name for a primitive, almost-human creature that is said to live in the wildest and most remote parts of Russia and Mongolia. The alma is known by many other names, but seems to be the more refined cousin of America's Bigfoot or the Yeti of the Himalayas. Where Bigfoot and the Abominable Snowman seem to be more ape-like, the alma is almost invariably described as less hairy and more human looking. In some cases, they are even said to possess speech and clothing.

    Is it possible that such beings...almost literally cavemen...can still live in the 21st century? In Russia, scientific study of the alma is taken seriously and there are several respected researchers who have devoted their lives to finding out more about the elusive near-men. And the rugged people who have lived in the areas where the alma have been seen regard them as a natural part of the landscape, not much different than a bear or a moose. But sightings have been more and more infrequent since the 20th century. Time may have already run out for the almas!

    As long ago as the 15th Century, travelers from the west brought back tales of apemen living in the rugged, untamed lands of the East. Such a traveler was Hans Schiltberger, who's own story was an exciting adventure. Schiltberger was a German nobleman who was taken prisoner by Mongol warriors but nevertheless treated courteously. While a prisoner, Schiltberger was amazed to see two "animal-men", a male and female, given as a kind of gift to the warlord who had captured him. They were stocky and covered with hair except for their faces, which were bare. These were "almas" and they were looked at as animals little different than monkeys or other apes. They were supposedly fairly common but becoming rarer at that time.

    Almost four hundred years later, the great naturalist Przhevalski included almas in his survey of Oriental animals. He described them as a cross between men and apes. He also described a strange type of horse with a bristly ridge running down its neck. Europeans laughed at Przhevalski's descriptions of these creatures. But Przhevalski's Horse was later discovered roaming Mongolia and it has been accepted by science as a separate species of horse. It stands to reason that if Przhevalski was telling the truth about the horse, he was also telling the truth about the almas.

    As war and chaos engulfed the Soviet Union in the early days of the 20th century, men began to penetrate into the lonely areas where the almas were seen. In 1925, as Russian Communists fought to purge the last "White Russians" from the land, General Mikhail Topil'skiy thought he had cornered a faction of rebels in a virtually uninhabited section of the rugged Pamir Mountains. The Reds approached a cave where they believed the Whites were holed up. Suddenly, there was a screech and a commotion from within the cave and a hairy figure ran out, either in a panic or a rage. The soldiers instantly shot the strange figure dead.

    Topil'skiy studied the body of the odd individual and was shocked to discover that it was not even a man, much less a rebel soldier. The alma was 5 and a half feet tall and covered with greyish-brown hair except for the face, hands and feet. Its skin was dark and rough and its chest was massively built. As far as facial features went, the alma had a bony brow ridge, a sloping forehead, and a flat, puggish nose. The General was struck just as much by the wildman's humanity as his apishness.

    And what became of the body? Stranded hundreds of miles from civilization, in a time of war, Topil'skiy and his soldiers buried it beneath a mound of stones. And there, perhaps, still lies the body of a creature who could revolutionize anthropology if it were ever discovered...

    That was not the only time the Russian military crossed paths with the wildmen. In 1941, as the Soviet Union was embroiled in the fury of World War II, Colonel V. S. Karapetyan received a peculiar request to examine a most unusual "spy" who was found lurking in the mountains of Dagestan. The local soldiers did not know what to make of the prisoner, who could not speak. Karapetyan entered the tent where the prisoner was kept...and encountered something that did not seem quite human.

    Karapetyan's description was scientifically exact and he also drew a good sketch of the wildman who sat unblinking in a chair before him. The creature was naked but seemed to have a shaggy pelt on the chest, back and upper legs. The rest of the body was merely very hairy, in a more typically human fashion. The alma was not tall but had an extremely muscular build. "He stood before me like a giant," noted Karapetyan, " with his mighty chest thrust forward....On the whole, he was considerably bigger than any of the local inhabitants." There was little or no sign of intelligence: "His eyes told me nothing. They were dull and empty, the eyes of an animal."

    The local tribesmen knew of similar creatures and called them Kaptars...a local variation of the alma. Karapetyan was at a loss for what to do with the "spy". He knew this was no Nazi or rebel. He could not hold him. With war raging all around and men fighting for their lives, there was no time for scientific study. Karapetyan returned to his post, leaving the Kaptar in the hands of his mostly uneducated captors. Word later came that the wildman was simply shot and buried.

    Serious scientific study of almas has taken place, but war and skepticism have taken their toll on those determined to learn more about the elusive humanoids. In 1913, Russian scientist V. A. Khaklov wrote a detailed study of almas, but in the chaos of the Russian Revolution, his papers were lost or destroyed. Perhaps the greatest investigator into the alma was Prof. Zhamtsarano, who spent a great deal of time in Mongolia looking into the creature's existance. Zhamtsarano was convinced the almas were common and he was said to even have illustrations of them taken from life. But the Professor ran afoul of "Uncle Joe" Stalin and was sentenced to the Gulag, where he died a miserable death. His research disappeared with him.

    In more modern times, two women have taken up the search. Marie-Jean Koffman has spent time in the remote Altai Mountains studying the almas. She has never seen one herself, but she has collected footprints, hair samples from an "unknown" primate, and observed rough "nests" of branches which almas used as shelters. Myra Shackley proposed the theory that almas are surviving members of the Neanderthals. Indeed, descriptions of the almas sometimes coincide nicely with the stocky, rugged Neanderthals. But recent research has shown that Neanderthals were much more intelligent and organized than they were originally given credit for. It seems unlikely that they would have become the dull-witted and animalistic almas unless a great degeneration had taken place.

    A question regarding Neanderthals has always been: were they able to breed with homo sapiens? A startling story from Russia seems to suggest that the almas are indeed able to breed successfully with normal humans.

    The story of Zana

    In the 1880s a strange woman - later given the name Zana or Zanya - with features of both mongoloid and negroid extraction was captured in the western Caucausus region. Here hoinoids are known as abnuaaya. Her exotic features were enough to describe her as unusual, but it was her coat of reddish-black hair, which covered her from head to foot and her physically imposing body which made her even more extraordinary. She was powerful enough to actually outrun horses and was able to easily swim swift-flowing rivers.

    The region of the globe that the story of Zana comes from is Abkhazia in northwestern Georgia. This region lies east of the Black Sea and borders on the Russian Federation. What is known of Zana occurs in a village called T’khina that lies on the Mokva River (Latitude 42º 51’ 50" N, Longitude 41º 33’ 08"E) roughly 50 miles from Sokhumi (city of 112,000 people). The map above shows Georgia in light colors with Abkhazia in the northwest quadrant.

    Zana was captured sometime in the mid 1800’s. The manner in which she was captured is unclear, some reports have her being accidentally found, others have her being captured by hunters on purpose. It is only needed to be stated at this point that she was captured and eventually became the possession of a nobleman named Edgi Genaba.

    She was housed in an enclosure of some type for a period of about three years. In this time she had very little human contact. Her food was thrown to her and she dug holes to sleep in. Eventually she grew calm around humans and was moved out of the enclosure, and was given freedom to roam about the countryside.

    In captivity Zana was passed on to a successor of owners commencing with Prince D.M. Achaba, titular head of the Zaadan region, and then ultimately into the hands of a nobleman, Edgi Genaba, from Tkhina on the Mokva River. The bizarre hominoid was well-treated by her master who taught her simple tasks to perform around the farm. It is said that she had a fondness for wine, and this is how her pregnancies came about. The wine would nullify her enough that she would become pregnant on at least six (6) different occasions by possibly six (6) different men of the village. The first few offspring died due to Zana washing them in water after birth, but the last four (4) offspring survived by the help of the village women who took the children.

    Of these four children, there were two of each sex. The children grew up to be like the villagers, with some physical differences. Each of these children reproduced and there are now descendants throughout the region. These progeny were fairly normal except all were dark and physically powerful. One son had the power to lift a man on a chair off the ground by means of his powerful jaws. Unlike their mother, Zana's children turned out to be quite talented with one son an accomplished pianist.

    Zana died sometime in the latter half of the nineteenth century.


    Sources:

  4. The Following 29 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    angelfire (10th March 2016), Atlas (15th August 2016), Billy (10th March 2016), BMJ (20th March 2016), Calz (9th March 2016), Carmody (10th March 2016), Cidersomerset (9th March 2016), Dennis Leahy (9th March 2016), drneglector (10th March 2016), Earthship (9th March 2016), Ellisa (10th March 2016), Ewan (9th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Iloveyou (10th March 2016), Ioneo (9th March 2016), Jean-Marie (9th March 2016), justntime2learn (9th March 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), lastlegs (10th March 2016), Lefty Dave (14th April 2016), Nasu (9th March 2016), Professor (9th March 2016), Shannon (15th August 2016), sirdipswitch (9th March 2016), Timreh (1st April 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016), Woody (9th March 2016)

  5. Link to Post #3
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,274
    Thanks
    11,862
    Thanked 7,724 times in 1,233 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    I spent hours and hours reading about bigfoot cases a few years ago. There was a story of a captured youth in the northern states of US and I recall a railroad featuring quite prominently. It may have even been the case where the guy who ended up with the body toured with the carcass frozen in a block of ice, or maybe two different stories. I'll have a little dig around and see if I can recall more details and provide links.

    There is also a tale of some miners who were trapped in their cabin for a few days following the death of a hominid. Screeches through the night and heavy clods and rocks were thrown at the building.

    This link for that latter one.

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/classics/beck.htm

    And one of the most convincing stories I ever read beyond the tale of Zana.

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/classics/ostman.htm

    Albert Ostman, kidnapped and held for a number of days by a small family group.

    Also, well worth looking through is the Native American tales listed within

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/legends.htm
    Last edited by Ewan; 9th March 2016 at 19:00.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    Billy (10th March 2016), BMJ (20th March 2016), Earthship (9th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Iloveyou (10th March 2016), Nasu (9th March 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016)

  7. Link to Post #4
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    20,206
    Thanks
    66,379
    Thanked 256,130 times in 18,647 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)

    There was a story of a captured youth in the northern states of US and I recall a railroad featuring quite prominently.
    Yes, that's this one, the story of Jacko:

    http://bigfootencounters.com/creatures/jacko.htm

    The Story of Jacko, 1884


    A local newspaper called The Colonist in Victoria, British Columbia, published the following extraordinary story in its 4th of July issue, 1884, under the headline, "What is it?"

    A strange creature captured above Yale.

    A British Columbian Gorilla

    "In the immediate vicinity of No. 4 tunnel, situated some twenty miles above this village [Yale] are bluff of rock, which have hitherto been insurmountable, but on Monday morning last were successfully scaled by Mr. Onderson's employees [sic] on the regular train from Lytton.

    Mr. Costerson, the British Columbia Express Company's messenger and number of men from Lytton and points east of that place succeeded in capturing a creature, which may be truly half man and half beast.

    "Jacko" as his captors have called the creature is something of the gorilla type, standing about four feet seven inches in height and weighing 127 pounds. He has long black strong hair and resembles a human being with one exception, his entire body, excepting his hands or paws and feet is covered with glossy hair about one inch long. His forearm is much longer than a man's forearm and he possesses extraordinary strength, as he will take a hold of a stick and break it by wrenching it or twisting it, which no man living could break in the same way.

    Since his capture he is very reticent only occasionally uttering a noise, which is half bark and half growl. He is, however, becoming daily more attached to his keeper, Mr. George Tilbury, of this place, who proposes shortly starting for London, England to exhibit him.

    His favorite food so far is berries and he drinks fresh milk with evident relish. By advice of Dr. Hannington raw meats have been withheld from Jacko, as the doctor thinks it would have a tendency to make him a savage.

    The mode of capture was as follow: Ned Austin, the engineer on the coming in sight of the bluff at the eastern end of the No. 4 tunnel saw what he supposed to be a man lying asleep in close proximity to the track and as quick as a thought blew the signal to apply the brakes. The brakes were instantly applied and in a few seconds the train was brought to a standstill.

    At this moment the supposed man sprang up and uttering a sharp quick bark, began to climb the steep bluff.

    Conductor R.J. Craig and express messenger Costerton followed the baggage man and brakemen, jumped from the train and knowing they were some twenty minutes ahead of schedule immediately gave chase.

    After five minutes of perilous climbing the supposed demented Indian was corralled on a projecting shelf of a rock where he could neither ascend or descend. The query now was how to capture him alive which was quickly decided by Mr. Craig who crawled on his hands and knees until he was about forty feet above the creature. Taking a small piece of loose rock he let it fall and he had the desired effect of rendering poor Jacko incapable of resistance for a time at least. The bell rope was then brought up and Jacko was now lowered to terra firma.

    After firmly finding him and placing him in the baggage car, "off brakes" was sounded and the train started for Yale. At the station a large crowd who had heard of the capture by telephone from Spuzzum Flat were assembled and each one anxious to have the first look at the monstrosity.

    They were disappointed as Jacko had been taken off the machine shops and placed in charge of his present keeper. The questions naturally arises, how came the creature where it was first seen by Mr. Austin?

    From bruises about it's head and body, and apparent soreness since it's capture it is supposed that Jacko ventured too near the edge of the bluff, slipped, fell and lay where found until the sound of the rushing train aroused him. Misters Thos. White, C. E. Gouin as well as Mr. Major (who kept a small store about half a mile west of the tunnel during the past two years) have mentioned having seen a curious creature at different points between Camps 13 and Camp 17 but no attention was paid to their remarks as people came to the conclusion that they had seen either a bear or a stray Indian Dog.

    Who can unravel the mystery that now surrounds Jacko? Does he belong to a species hitherto unknown in this part of the continent or is he really what the trainmen first thought he was, just a crazy Indian?

    An old man named August Castle who was a child in the town at the time subsequently confirmed newspaper accounts of Jacko.

    The fate of the captive is not known, although some said that he was shipped east by rail in a cage on the way to be exhibited in a sideshow but died in transit. The same paper recorded a consistent stream of other sightings from then on.

    © Myra Shackley, 1983 pg 35 -"Still Living, Yeti, Sasquatch and the Neanderthal Enigma"


    Other comments concerning Jacko:

    John Green and Sabrina Sanderson (Mrs. Ivan Sanderson) wrote about the Jacko story being "a newspaper hoax" in an article entitled, "Alas, Poor Jacko," in Pursuit 8: 1 (Jan 1975), pages 18-19. Pursuit was a Journal published by Ivan T. Sanderson's “Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained,” long defunct.

    Looking at other contemporary (i.e. 1884) news articles, Green was able to discover that other newspapers had looked into the report of the "What Is It" (Jacko) and had concluded that no such animal was caught.

    Green, at the time, felt The Jacko Story was a piece of fiction and unknown persons fooled the newspaper, The Colonist into printing it.

    In response, John Kirk wrote: "I therefore must ask the question: why did people like Chilco Choate, who is quoted in Green's own book, "Sasquatch Apes Among Us" Hancock House 1978 (note this is three years after The Pursuit article was published), relate that his grandfather was there at the time and described Jacko as an ape?

    There is also the letter to John Green from Adela Bastin whose mother remembered the stories of Jacko as they were still being discussed by the people of Yale. I am very curious to know why the so-called contradictory reports in other papers accusing The Colonist of hoaxing do not occur in John's book?

    If this was hoax and John and Mrs. Sanderson exposed it in The Pursuit in 1975, why was this not clearly stated in the book? I don't really care one way or the other if Jacko was a Sasquatch. I am just puzzled by the contradictory statements that have arisen over this whole episode. Let's please ask John Green to clarify this here once and for all. Over to you JG."
    Comment by John Kirk

    John Green's reply: "There is evidence on both sides of the question of Jacko. Unless something new comes to light there is no way to be sure whether the story was genuine or a hoax. John Green"

    Rene Dahinden's response: "Green always straddles the fence. For years he said the Jacko story was true and had excellent sources, even published the piece in his own 'Advance' newspaper. Now Green claims otherwise. For 35 years, this has been John Green; says one thing one day and another the next, you can't always trust Green's word." ...Rene Dahinden

    Grover Krantz on Jacko: "I tend to agree with Shackley, she mounted a huge investigation into the subject." Grover S. Krantz, Ph.D.

    The Frazer River Canyon is where the strange creature, and by some people - thought to be a young Sasquatch, (called Jacko) was captured in 1884, all the rhetoric and speculation in the world won't resolve the Jacko story, we will never know the truth of it. Still, the most exhaustive investigation was launched by Dr. Myra Shackley, Ph.D.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 9th March 2016 at 21:38.

  8. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Atlas (16th August 2016), Carmody (9th March 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Ewan (9th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Iloveyou (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), seko (10th March 2016), Shannon (15th August 2016), Spellbound (27th March 2016), Star Tsar (16th August 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  9. Link to Post #5
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,274
    Thanks
    11,862
    Thanked 7,724 times in 1,233 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    There are a number of decent to good videos clips out there as well but it takes a mixture of stamina and patience to find them, there are so many ridiculous fakes you can lose heart. The good ones, by the very nature of the encounter, tend to be very poor quality. General rule of thumb is the better it looks the less likely it is real.

    The Patterson-Gimlin film has no doubt been discussed here in the past but I have watched every rebuttal posted, (near enough), and I am still personally convinced that it was a genuine capture and perhaps, still to this day, the best.

    Of course, everyone who holds themselves to be the arbiter of common-sense and logic can't wait to pull these things apart, that combined with the avalanche of fakes make the subject one of the most taboo out there.

  10. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (9th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), Shannon (15th August 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  11. Link to Post #6
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,274
    Thanks
    11,862
    Thanked 7,724 times in 1,233 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    The Minnesota Iceman

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/argosy2.htm

    Taken from the the Argosy Magazine, May 1969

    Quote One side of the mouth is slightly agape and two small teeth can be seen. These should be the right upper canine and the first premolar. The canine or eyetooth is very small and in no way exaggerated into a tusk, or similar to that of a gorilla or a chimp. But — to me, at least — the most interesting features of all are some folds and wrinkle lines around the mouth just below the cheeks. These are absolutely human, and are like those seen in a heavy-jowled, older white man. Let me say, simply, that one look was actually enough to convince us that this was — from our point of view, at least — "the genuine article." This was no phony Chinese trick, or "art" work. If nothing else confirmed this, the appalling stench of rotting flesh exuding from a point in the insulation of the coffin would have been enough.

    Then again, you may well be able to fool me, I fully admit. But I defy anybody to fool Bernard Heuvelmans in a case like this. You just cannot "make" a corpse like this, either out of bits and pieces of the bodies of other animals, or of wax, with some half a million hairs inserted into it. And you can't get the kind of hairs that cover this corpse from any other kind of animal that I know of. Also, the proportions of this body, and several of its special features, are just not known at all — or, at least, have never been suggested either by paleontologists who have studied the fossil bones of primitive man-things, or even by the skilled artists who have fleshed out and made constructions of what the former have found. In fact, any "artists" setting out to "make" such a thing would have had to have a model, and none is available. But, apart front that, you can't completely fool two trained morphologists with zoological, anatomical and anthropological training. No! Bozo is the genuine article.
    Now that was from an eye-witness. At the same site is another article.

    http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/hansen2.htm

    Tha ends with..

    Quote Dr. John Napier, was at the time, chief of the primatology department at the Smithsonian, and eminent in his field, but was curious. Frank Hansen refused to let him examine the exhibit closely, just as he had refused others.

    Dr. Napier said that the chances now seem high that the Iceman was merely a fabricated model. But he is still interested and wishes he could have examined it. He added that it was difficult to believe that Heuvelmans could have been fooled so easily.

    Though now it is practically certain that the Iceman is a piece of trickery, if one is bound to agree with John Napier.

    And that is why this story of a probable hoax. Because, supposing there was one fragment of truth in this involved and often absurd story, some of its features do equate with this book's theme of the Snowman-plus-Neanderthal situation. And because if the Iceman is a complete hoax, as I am almost certain it is, fabrications of this nature must be exposed to prevent their perpetuation.
    Latex was first used in special effects prosthetic in the 1930's extensively in the Wizard of Oz, earlier attempts were rudimentary to say the least.

    http://www.sianjeffriesjones.com/201...istory-part-1/

    I'm not sure when the accurate insertion of realistic hair would have taken place but these early prosthetics were not designed to fool close inspection. I certainly don't buy the idea that the Patterson-Gimlin creature was a man in a monkey suit.

    As for the Iceman, I guess we will never know.

    Bill, if this thread was supposed to be devoted in its entirety to Zana I'm afraid I have completely derailed it into a wider field.

  12. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (9th March 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), Star Tsar (16th August 2016), Tyy1907 (9th March 2016)

  13. Link to Post #7
    United States Avalon Member Latti's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th August 2012
    Age
    76
    Posts
    142
    Thanks
    651
    Thanked 592 times in 118 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Bryan Sykes claims that DNA test of Zana's progeny indicate African descent.

    Sykes seems to have respected reputation, but as with most scientist in the establishment, he was likely under pressure to not report evidence of the Alma.

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Latti For This Post:

    Cidersomerset (9th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016)

  15. Link to Post #8
    UK Avalon Member Cidersomerset's Avatar
    Join Date
    16th May 2011
    Location
    Bridgwater somerset UK
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,337
    Thanks
    33,460
    Thanked 79,211 times in 18,662 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Bryan Sykes claims that DNA test of Zana's progeny indicate African descent.
    I saw a documentary about that not so long ago , though I first heard the story
    years ago , possibly on Arthur C Clarks world of mysteries or something similar.

    Actually it might of been by the famous Russian boxer who looks a bit neaderthal,
    he was looking into the Alma stories from Siberia ??

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I remember where I saw it relatively recently it was a channel 4 mini series,
    it was a bit of an anti climax......They tell the story of Zana , the results of
    DNA tests suggest she came from sub Saharan Africa or black African. There
    is a little twist at the end when it is suggested that Zana may of been a relic
    of an earlier out of Africa wave of dispersal. As I remember its still not clear cut.


    Bigfoot Files S01 E03 The 'Almasty' 720p HDTV
    .
    Last edited by Cidersomerset; 9th March 2016 at 22:27.

  16. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Cidersomerset For This Post:

    Atlas (16th August 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Ellisa (10th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  17. Link to Post #9
    UK Avalon Member Cidersomerset's Avatar
    Join Date
    16th May 2011
    Location
    Bridgwater somerset UK
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,337
    Thanks
    33,460
    Thanked 79,211 times in 18,662 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    I think there was only 3 programmes in the series , I'm
    don't know if they are going to do any more, here are
    the other two as I'm on the link....


    Bigfoot Files S01 E01 The "Yeti" legend 720p HDTV



    -------------------------------------------------------

    Bigfoot Files - Episode 2



    -----------------------------------------------------

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Cidersomerset For This Post:

    DNA (15th August 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016)

  19. Link to Post #10
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    20,206
    Thanks
    66,379
    Thanked 256,130 times in 18,647 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Cidersomerset (here)

    They tell the story of Zana, the results of DNA tests suggest she came from sub Saharan Africa or black African. There is a little twist at the end when it is suggested that Zana may of been a relic of an earlier out of Africa wave of dispersal. As I remember its still not clear cut.
    If that's what they do say, they have that incorrect... Zana's body hasn't yet been formally stated to have been found (although it's known, approximately, where she was buried).

    In interviews with Dr Melba Ketchum, Dr Ketchum has suggested that tests actually are in progress to establish Zana's DNA, so maybe Russian researchers (and there are a lot of them) have found something recently that they can work on.

    The 'African ancestry' test was for one of Zana's offspring. The best that can be said here is that so far, it's inconclusive. My own (amateur, unqualified! ) guess is that she's a relic Neanderthal, and her species may be only very extremely distantly unrelated to Bigfoot in North America (which Dr Ketchum is 100% certain, from DNA tests from numerous samples, is 'human').

    For more of Dr Melba Ketchum's work, see her website, The Sasquatch Genome Project: http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org — which is more than fascinating.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 9th March 2016 at 23:20.

  20. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Atlas (16th August 2016), Cidersomerset (15th August 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Ellisa (10th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), seko (10th March 2016), Spellbound (27th March 2016), Tyy1907 (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  21. Link to Post #11
    Canada Avalon Member Tyy1907's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th February 2014
    Location
    Saskatoon SK
    Age
    37
    Posts
    933
    Thanks
    3,197
    Thanked 3,621 times in 851 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    As far as David Paulides is concerned, they've proved the existence of Bigfoot through the DNA testing they did of saliva, blood, flesh samples by Dr. Melba Ketchum. There seems to have been a large scale smear campaign to discredit Ketchums years of work on this project. It got so bad that she wished she never had chosen to do the project in the first place. Sad very sad.

  22. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Tyy1907 For This Post:

    DNA (15th August 2016), Ellisa (10th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  23. Link to Post #12
    Australia Avalon Member
    Join Date
    7th July 2011
    Posts
    1,113
    Thanks
    4,638
    Thanked 3,052 times in 950 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    If the DNA showed African ancestry then I believe it would be impossible for the Alma to be a remnant neanderthal, as neanderthals have never been found in Africa.

  24. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ellisa For This Post:

    Cidersomerset (10th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016)

  25. Link to Post #13
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,274
    Thanks
    11,862
    Thanked 7,724 times in 1,233 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Ellisa (here)
    If the DNA showed African ancestry then I believe it would be impossible for the Alma to be a remnant neanderthal, as neanderthals have never been found in Africa.
    However, a lack of evidence is not proof.

    We know it takes a set of special circumstances for fossils to form in the first place and Africa is an almighty big place. I'd rather say they have not been found to date. A couple of years ago I was debating a David Leakey position with a nephew which I summed up to him as saying, "Imagine you have this 50,000 piece jigsaw. They've found 100-200 pieces and are trying to tell you what the whole picture looks like."

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    kirolak (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016)

  27. Link to Post #14
    Avalon Member kirolak's Avatar
    Join Date
    5th April 2013
    Posts
    802
    Thanks
    8,993
    Thanked 4,227 times in 741 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Poor creatures, I hope man never finds them . . . .

  28. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to kirolak For This Post:

    Ewan (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), Shannon (15th August 2016), Tyy1907 (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  29. Link to Post #15
    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Posts
    5,010
    Thanks
    11,911
    Thanked 28,350 times in 4,623 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    One intriguing aspect of the Zana story is humans’ willingness to copulate and produce hybrids with just about anything that moves. Humanity itself seems to be such a hybrid produced when sexually frustrated beta male chimps came down from the trees and mated with pigs, from which we inherited all the traits that didn’t come to us from the apes.

    Contrast this with a major tenet of Aryanism, the purity of the race. Are these perhaps two conflicting Darwinian strategies? If so, then the possibly more unsavory approach seems to have been vastly more successful, in terms of sheer numbers, than the incestuous bloodline approach. And conversely, the latter seems to have been vastly more successful, in terms of reaching positions of power, than the former.

    It may then be that the importance of cross-breeding has been finally acknowledged, leading to an interesting cross-fertilization of ideas. On the one hand you have stories of the Annunaki holding their noses while producing test-tube humans until the gods got the hang of interbreeding with men. And you have alien abductions involving various degrees of ‘hands-on’ interbreeding. And other hand, you have whistle-blowers denouncing the bestial practices of the elite: normally speaking this makes no sense, as the (reproductive) bestiality is being practised by ordinary (primitive) people. It would seem the murderous paedophilia is a kind of horrible distortion of this phenomenon rejected as being altogether too distasteful. Oh dear.


  30. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to araucaria For This Post:

    Agape (10th March 2016), drneglector (10th March 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), ulli (10th March 2016)

  31. Link to Post #16
    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
    Join Date
    26th March 2010
    Posts
    4,347
    Thanks
    9,968
    Thanked 17,581 times in 3,404 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Clearly such creatures have less and less chance for survival these days and developing own lineages , families , tribes and so forth but looking to the past and all the archeo-paleontological findings and proportionate distribution of those compared to findings of 'modern humans' there had to be more of them around ,
    your 'darwinian ancestors' is not the correct interpretation of the fact they're distantly related to human lineages ,
    or were.

    Even thousand or two thousand years ago when the industrial society and human population was not so abundant as it is today ,
    local legends and almanacs were still full of various 'mythical creatures' and children were born with what then medical system probably classified only as 'curse of gods' ,
    congenital abnormalities of many kinds ,
    so they're to do this day .. thanks to more stress on 'selective interbreeding' and abolishment of many perverse ritualistic practices that brought along more degeneration , the aim of 'cultivated society' is to bring numbers of such 'creatures' to zero.

    Circumstantially .. this brings up interesting question such as 'can Apes suffer from Down Syndrome or similar congenital degenerative syndromes that would be acquired - for example - by mating with member of another Ape or Monkey species .

    While such mutations occur rarely in nature - precisely because 'selective interbreeding' as guiding factor of intelligent evolution ( using the term 'evolution' in lose rather than darwinian sense here ) - they probably still do play natural and substantial role in live creation of new species .

    Whether such inter-breeding attempts end up in beautiful way - or the 'other way around' - remains upon mother nature to answer .

    To my original thought about scarcity and seemingly unequal spread of anomalous mutations in human lineages and among big apes ,

    what comes to 'public eye' nowadays is slightly distorted image .. due to natural selective processes among human society,
    children born with serious degenerative disorders rarely survive long but they're more likely to be kept in specialised institutions who are full of them ,
    not a nice pictures to see .

    In not-so-far-away past , speaking of tens , hundreds or thousands of years depending on territory of your residence , such children were often killed right after birth ,
    some left in the forest in 'gods best care' ,
    the few who may have been so lucky and benevolent to survive , mingle with ordinary human society or even live on their own were few .. but certainly more than it would be the case in last few centuries .


    My point about Apes having Down Syndrome .. is not easy to answer , in animal kingdom strictly taken .. individuals born with severe degenerative disorders and deformities are not likely to survive or even be tended by their mothers for long .
    Among such 'Downers' however , one or two who may have altered genetic traits yet they'd evolve extraordinary set of skills in some direction conducive to species survival, for example, by producing offspring etc. , they may also represent potential 'bridge' to whole new human or ape sub-species .

    What I'm reflecting upon here nevertheless .. has to do with my own observation of remote origins of mankind in faraway stars , as once supremely advanced race of beings who suffered process of degeneration upon their involuntary stranding on this planet, millions years ago ..

    and .. their later chance inter-breeding with some higher animal lineages resulting in more mutations and degenerative processes
    ( I've mentioned this all in my original writings on the Bodhgaya Event ).

    ....

    Reflecting strictly on the matter-of-art of human life ... as it stands .. and as we know it .. its propensities being so volatile and multilevelled .. we are much less determined here , less defined ( biologically and ethically ) than what we believe to be true while partaking in the carefully curbed mechanisms of so called civilised societies of humans.
    While we believe - philosophically and rely - existentially on our 'civilised predicament' and determination to live, look, act , express ourselves in certain ways ,
    given 'back to nature' either as infants or even mature individuals left to own devices , i wonder about the percentage of individuals ( unless assisted by society ) living long life for example ,
    we are too vulnerable and unprepared to cope in rough climates and very few people would be able to build computer from scratch .. ( save for Bob ) or say , from their 'genetic memory' .



    In further off scenario .... the last advanced ET ancestor probably just had no choice one day knowing he too will pass away and his only hope for survival was in depositing his 'bio-information' in another living organism with hope that such fertilisation process will give birth and grow to another advanced entity one day ..
    Last edited by Agape; 10th March 2016 at 12:56.

  32. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Agape For This Post:

    Cidersomerset (15th August 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  33. Link to Post #17
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    20,206
    Thanks
    66,379
    Thanked 256,130 times in 18,647 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Tyy1907 (here)

    As far as David Paulides is concerned, they've proved the existence of Bigfoot through the DNA testing they did of saliva, blood, flesh samples by Dr. Melba Ketchum. There seems to have been a large scale smear campaign to discredit Ketchum's years of work on this project. It got so bad that she wished she never had chosen to do the project in the first place. Sad very sad.

    Yes. She's bouncing back, though. Here's a zip file of a number of excellent Melba Ketchum interviews (and a really first-rate David Paulides presentation, the first hour of which is on the same subject):

    http://we.tl/42o3hoa1Fv (423 Mb, downloadable till 17 March)
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Feb 17 2013 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Feb 17 2013 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Aug 31 2014 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Aug 31 2014 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 3.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 4.mp3
    • David Paulides - Bigfoot DNA and Missing 411 MUFON presentation, 19 Feb 2013.mp4
    For any serious student of this entire topic (Bigfoot DNA, and Zana is also mentioned several times) — and whether these beings are 'human' or not — this is a really detailed and valuable resource.

    For anyone who's a little unfamiliar with all this, David Paulides' most excellent video presentation may be the best place to start.

    To risk a summary, Dr Melba Ketchum is a feisty (and very smart) Texan, and an animal DNA specialist with a doctorate in Veterinary Medicine, and the founder of DNA Diagnostics.

    She at first didn't believe Bigfoot existed until she had her own face-to-face encounters. She then started a program, working methodically with many others, to obtain Bigfoot tissue and hair samples, and publish a scientific paper detailing the results of DNA testing. This universally and definitively showed that Bigfoot was 'human' — a human hybrid, as of about 13,000 years ago.

    For her pains, she was trashed by both the scientific community AND much of the 'Bigfoot community', the former either rejecting her paper without proper reason, or stating that the samples must have been 'contaminated' — while the latter remained committed to believe that Bigfoot had to be some kind of an ape.

    Most interestingly, David Paulides (who supports Dr Ketchum's work 100%), and Melba Ketchum herself, have both made deep contacts within the Native American community, who of course have known all about Bigfoot/Sasquatch for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    Native American tribes are universally steadfast that Bigfoots are 'people' — intelligent, with a kind of language, specialized abilities, and high awareness. Do see David Paulides' fascinating video presentation for more about this.

  34. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Atlas (16th August 2016), BMJ (20th March 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Ewan (10th March 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016), kirolak (10th March 2016), Loren (11th March 2016), mpennery (10th March 2016), Nasu (10th March 2016), Tyy1907 (10th March 2016), william r sanford72 (10th March 2016)

  35. Link to Post #18
    Canada Avalon Member Tyy1907's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th February 2014
    Location
    Saskatoon SK
    Age
    37
    Posts
    933
    Thanks
    3,197
    Thanked 3,621 times in 851 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Tyy1907 (here)

    As far as David Paulides is concerned, they've proved the existence of Bigfoot through the DNA testing they did of saliva, blood, flesh samples by Dr. Melba Ketchum. There seems to have been a large scale smear campaign to discredit Ketchum's years of work on this project. It got so bad that she wished she never had chosen to do the project in the first place. Sad very sad.

    Yes. She's bouncing back, though. Here's a zip file of a number of excellent Melba Ketchum interviews (and a really first-rate David Paulides presentation, the first hour of which is on the same subject):

    http://we.tl/42o3hoa1Fv (423 Mb, downloadable till 17 March)
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Feb 17 2013 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Feb 17 2013 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Aug 31 2014 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA - Aug 31 2014 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 1.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 2.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 3.mp3
    • Coast to Coast - Melba Ketchum, Bigfoot DNA, Giants - Mar 29 2015 - Hour 4.mp3
    • David Paulides - Bigfoot DNA and Missing 411 MUFON presentation, 19 Feb 2013.mp4
    For any serious student of this entire topic (Bigfoot DNA, and Zana is also mentioned several times) — and whether these beings are 'human' or not — this is a really detailed and valuable resource.

    For anyone who's a little unfamiliar with all this, David Paulides' most excellent video presentation may be the best place to start.

    To risk a summary, Dr Melba Ketchum is a feisty (and very smart) Texan, and an animal DNA specialist with a doctorate in Veterinary Medicine, and the founder of DNA Diagnostics.

    She at first didn't believe Bigfoot existed until she had her own face-to-face encounters. She then started a program, working methodically with many others, to obtain Bigfoot tissue and hair samples, and publish a scientific paper detailing the results of DNA testing. This universally and definitively showed that Bigfoot was 'human' — a human hybrid, as of about 13,000 years ago.

    For her pains, she was trashed by both the scientific community AND much of the 'Bigfoot community', the former either rejecting her paper without proper reason, or stating that the samples must have been 'contaminated' — while the latter remained committed to believe that Bigfoot had to be some kind of an ape.

    Most interestingly, David Paulides (who supports Dr Ketchum's work 100%), and Melba Ketchum herself, have both made deep contacts within the Native American community, who of course have known all about Bigfoot/Sasquatch for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    Native American tribes are universally steadfast that Bigfoots are 'people' — intelligent, with a kind of language, specialized abilities, and high awareness. Do see David Paulides' fascinating video presentation for more about this.
    Glad to see you've looked into this Bill. Since I stumbled on this topic I've felt there's definitely something to it. MUCH disinfo when it comes to the BF field. It only makes me look into it further. Ha ha

  36. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tyy1907 For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (16th August 2016), DNA (15th August 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016)

  37. Link to Post #19
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    8th May 2011
    Location
    Arizona
    Age
    46
    Posts
    3,931
    Thanks
    27,040
    Thanked 20,759 times in 3,642 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Posted by Ellisa (here)
    If the DNA showed African ancestry then I believe it would be impossible for the Alma to be a remnant neanderthal, as neanderthals have never been found in Africa.
    It could be a remnant homo-erectus though. My personal pet theory before five years ago had me leaning towards homo-erectus more so than Gigantopithcus. Homo-Erectus is said to have died out around 70,000 years ago, and is sited as being the closest human relative to homo-sapiens being that they have not found the missing link that is supposed to bridge the two.

    Here is an article regarding fossil pieces of a particularly large homo-erectus that I found quite interesting.


    The Java Giant: Meganthropus






    Meganthropus fossil remains were first found in Central Java in Indonesia at the Sangiran site near Surakarta in 1941. Originally, it was named “Meganthropus paleojavanicus.” The name is considered invalid today among mainstream paleoanthropologists but survives as a common sort of nickname. The fossils of this hominin consisted of several large jaw bones and skull fragments. Some regard the fossils as those of giants and it has been debated whether or not Mega should be placed in the Homo (human) genus (Homo paleojavanicus). Other researchers believe Mega is more related to the Australopithecines and should be called Australopithecus paleojavanicus. So, as figured, the debate over the name continues!
    Size comparison of Mega to modern man and the Flores Is Hobbit

    Another name that is used is Paranthropus robustus with the name Meganthropus africanus used as a synonym by some. Personally, I prefer to refer to this hominin simply as Meganthropus or simply MEGA.
    Most paleoanthropologists consider Mega related to the ancient human ancestor Homo erectus although we’re not sure how. The number of fossil finds is small. The first fossils found of this hominin are known as Meganthropus A/Sangiran 6 found by von Koenigswald in 1941 in Java. Koenigswald was captured by the Japanese during WW2 and the fossils he found disappeared, however, he was able to make cast of the jaw and send it to Franz Weidenreich. The jaw was then the largest ever found. Weidenreich at first thought the specimen may have suffered from a condition known as Acromegalic giantism but soon ruled that out because the jaw did not appear to have any of the associated traits of that condition. He surmised that Mega must have been about 2/3 the size of the giant ape Gigantopithecus and twice as large as a common gorilla. That would make Mega around 8 feet (2.44 m) tall and about 600 lbs (272 kg). That’s a pretty big hominin!!
    Another jaw fragment was discovered in 1979 by Marks and a mandible (jaw) and ramus were acquired by Sartono in 1993. Some of these fossils have been dated at 1.4–0.9 mya. Sadly, details of the teeth in Sartono’s specimen have been lost and the ramus is rather badly damaged. The fossil find known as Meganthropus 1/Sangiran 27 was that found by Tyler which consisted of a nearly complete but sadly crushed cranium which was within the size definitions of Mega but outside of those of H. erectus. Strangely, this specimen has a double temporal ridge (sagittal crest) and a very thick nuchal ridge! Other jaw and skull fragments have been found and many researchers consider them to be out of range for H. erectus. It’s also be noted that these fossils have some marked traits of Australopithecus. Despite this the majority of anthropologists consider Mega to belong to H. erectus anyway. If they are right then it means Mega is a very archaic (primitive) early H. erectus specimen. However, if one excepts the crossbreeding theory then this mix of traits is not unusual at all as its features reflect its admixture and hybridization.
    Australian researcher Rex Gilroy believes Mega also existed in Australia and may still be there today! He speaks of giant stone tool finds and modern-day reports of sighting the creature in the outback of Australia. Could this be the Yowie, the Australian version of Bigfoot? Some Bigfoot researchers have suggested Meganthropus as being Bigfoot. If so, it certainly has the height and weight of common Bigfoot sighting reports. Seems to me that Mega is a good candidate for Sasquatch.

  38. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DNA For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (16th August 2016), Cidersomerset (15th August 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016)

  39. Link to Post #20
    UK Avalon Member Cidersomerset's Avatar
    Join Date
    16th May 2011
    Location
    Bridgwater somerset UK
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,337
    Thanks
    33,460
    Thanked 79,211 times in 18,662 posts

    Default Re: The story of Zana/ Zanya/ Zena: a female Alma (wild man), captured in ~1850 in Georgia

    Quote Quote Posted by Cidersomerset (here)

    They tell the story of Zana, the results of DNA tests suggest she came from sub
    Saharan Africa or black African. There is a little twist at the end when it is suggested
    that Zana may of been a relic of an earlier out of Africa wave of dispersal. As I
    remember its still not clear cut.

    If that's what they do say, they have that incorrect... Zana's body hasn't yet been
    formally stated to have been found (although it's known, approximately, where
    she was buried).
    A rather late response , yes they were using relatives DNA I think without rewatching it....
    Last edited by Cidersomerset; 15th August 2016 at 15:10.

  40. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cidersomerset For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (16th August 2016), Foxie Loxie (17th August 2016)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts