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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Re Flight 93, in 2009 I interviewed 'Elizabeth Nelson', a personal witness to the decision being made to shoot down Flight 93. She was in the room. I knew her well, and I believe her 100%.
    Okay, but that is still not proof of the existence of the flight. The fact is the same sources that want us to believe a real flight was shot down, are the same sources that want us to believe a plane crashed in Shanksville, which the evidence shows was not the case.


    A Different Take on Shanksville - http://yankee451.com/?p=4712
    Taboo Truths: Uncovering Flight 93 - http://yankee451.com/?p=4343
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 3rd September 2018 at 21:59. Reason: fixed quote formatting

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by yankee451 (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Re Flight 93, in 2009 I interviewed 'Elizabeth Nelson', a personal witness to the decision being made to shoot down Flight 93. She was in the room. I knew her well, and I believe her 100%.
    Okay, but that is still not proof of the existence of the flight.
    Yes. I'd gone on to say:
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    She never saw the plane come down, of course. And given that particular situation (the military personnel involved didn't appear to know about the False Flag setup), they might have been trying to shoot down a radar ghost. (If a hologram can be seen in the visible spectrum, just maybe it's detectable in the radar spectrum, also, though the physics is certainly rather different.)
    Steve, delighted you're here with us. Do please comment more.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Bill Ryan;Yes. I'd gone on to say:
    She never saw the plane come down, of course. And given that particular situation (the military personnel involved didn't appear to know about the False Flag setup), they might have been trying to shoot down a radar ghost
    .

    Indeed. If anyone would have to believe, it would be the military people involved. Few people are as indoctrinated as the military; the front line in believing the big lie.

    Quote Bill Ryan;Steve, delighted you're here with us. Do please comment more.
    Thanks, Bill, I'm happy to be here. It's hard to shut me up about 9/11 ;-)

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    A couple of days ago, this last video ^^ took me down quite a rabbit hole of linked presentations which I've yet to emerge from.

    I'd like to comment further a little later (there's a lot to say!), but my overriding observation is that the 9/11 research community is a huge, complex dog-eat-dog rat's nest of barbed antagonism, stiletto-backstabbing, mutual denigration and character assassination.

    One or two of the principal names have to be very skilled, planted intel assets — there seems no other explanation — but, assuming so, they've done such a good job that fingers are pointed to all 360º of the compass. And I have no really strong ideas myself who best to trust.
    No kidding, and more than just one or two of them. The easiest way to control the opposition is to lead it, after all, and it HAS been 17 years of being led to where the truth movement is today (which is as you described it.) They couldn't have done a better job of muddying the waters and confusing truth seekers, even if they weren't written into the script. But it isn't that hard to discover the truth to 9/11; just look for the evidence the leaders won't touch.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Jax_realm (here)
    Ive seen that before. Seems to me like someone bigger then him shut him up as he has made subsequent statements contradicting these. It’s too bad
    Yes, I think word got to him fairly quickly to keep his mouth shut (he started talking about how great of a friend Larry Silverstein is, in a very conspicuous way, which sounds like mob talk to me -- "Oh yeah he's a great friend"), but Trump always brings up that he lost a lot of friends in the WTC buildings on 9/11, and he holds grudges for a long time. He was also asked about investigating 9/11 on the campaign trail and he dodged the question. Hmmmmm.

    I think he has something up his sleeve, but all things around Trump are extremely polarized, so he has to direct that polarization carefully, and he does a good job at that. Decades of multi-million dollar marketing experience no doubt comes into play with that. If he says 9/11 is an inside job, then it instantly becomes a Trump-polarized issue. If we really want 9/11 truth then we don't want that. We want a bipartisan and non-political investigation. So it's not as simple as people just frankly speaking what's on their mind. Politics is like that.

    There is at least one court case regarding 9/11 that is making its way through the courts right now, but I think it will ultimately require military tribunals to really dig out the real culprits, who are going to involve an international network with the intelligence agencies. Americans, Brits, Germans, Saudis, Israelis, Pakistanis, and Afghanis were all involved, and probably others on top of that. But there's already a paper trail and/or other evidence in public domain linking all of those countries to what happened on 9/11. The hijackers themselves were Saudi nationals, some of whom spoke Hebrew if I remember correctly, brought first to Germany and then sent to the US. The CIA was wiring money to Afghanistan via the Pakistani ISI. That's public record too. There's plenty already out there just waiting to be acted on. They never thought they'd lose control of the justice system, I guess.
    Lately I have been agreeing with John Lear when he says there were no planes hitting the towers , and thus no "hijackers" on 9/11, and the whole thing we watched on TV was a sophisticated hologram of the buildings being hit by planes. After listening to the full Trump video above, it again seems that the way we saw the buildings sliced by the planes was completely impossible.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    i sure would want to understand how anyone with any technology can beam a laser signal of at least 100,000 watts of visual power with all the computer technology to create a 360 degree white light animated hologram with no computers and no lasers present that can do that. That thought about a hologram is so alice'n-wonderland technologically it boggles the mind to even think such technology is possible.. I am totally up on lasers, holograms and every technique to broadcast a hologram and that concept that such technology was deployed at that location and is highly highly improbable that the technology exists yet alone deployed for something of that SIZE across that area to be visible from 360 degrees.
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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Arcturian108 (here)

    Lately I have been agreeing with John Lear when he says there were no planes hitting the towers , and thus no "hijackers" on 9/11, and the whole thing we watched on TV was a sophisticated hologram of the buildings being hit by planes. After listening to the full Trump video above, it again seems that the way we saw the buildings sliced by the planes was completely impossible.
    Holograms can't cause buildings to sway at the moment of impact.
    Nor can they shoot plane parts out of the building at the moment of impact.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Arcturian108 (here)
    Lately I have been agreeing with John Lear when he says there were no planes hitting the towers , and thus no "hijackers" on 9/11, and the whole thing we watched on TV was a sophisticated hologram of the buildings being hit by planes. After listening to the full Trump video above, it again seems that the way we saw the buildings sliced by the planes was completely impossible.
    That's interesting, isn't it?

    I got into the 9/11 truth stuff around 2002 or 2003, but I was immensely skeptical of the "no planes" theories for years, just because of how absurd the whole thing sounds. But the more I got to thinking about that thin aluminum fuselage slamming into those massive steel columns, especially compared to what supposedly happened at the Pentagon (aluminum wings "vaporizing" on the concrete facade), too much doesn't add up.

    Donald Trump was nobody to me back then, either. I was too young to remember his real estate fame from the 1980s, and never cared about reality TV shows. So I never paid any attention to his comments until more recent years. But you're right, he seems to have doubted that planes could have done that from the very first day as well, and he believed there were bombs in the buildings too. For as stupid as he often acts (which is completely intentional), the guy must have an IQ around 180 or something. He's a quick study and that's no joke. And he's mean, too. The guys responsible for 9/11 probably all have ulcers by now, waiting to see where all of this political drama is going to go, especially after he gutted the Bush family during the primaries.


    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    Holograms can't cause buildings to sway at the moment of impact.
    Nor can they shoot plane parts out of the building at the moment of impact.
    Nor can planes hit one side of a building and instantly eject an engine out of the other side, and even the news anchors that day were commenting on how bizarre that was.

    There were bombs in the basement that detonated simultaneously with the "plane impacts," which were probably also explosives. There is lots of eyewitness testimony to basement explosions, it appears on the seismic records, and the French filmmakers who just happened to be at the WTC that morning also captured the chaos in the lobby from the basement explosions when they first entered the buildings. So it's on film. The idea of a fuel-air fireball coming down the elevator shafts from some 100 floors up (one of the excuses half-heartedly offered by NIST with no investigation) is total nonsense and there is no evidence of it. Only two elevators covered that distance and one of them, the main freight, had an operator who survived and reported no fireball, ever. The explosions in the basement blew out elevator banks in the lobby, they were so severe. Off the top of my head, I think there was a guy named Philip Morelli who was a construction worker, and one of the eyewitnesses who testified to that blast. There were others as well, but it's been years since I was up to snuff on all of this stuff.

    Yep, just looked it up and Philip Morelli was the guy's name. He's just one of the witnesses to the basement explosions. I can't remember the other guys' names. One of them was a Puerto Rican who knew Pen Jillette. Firefighter testimonies also spoke to the destruction in the lobby that came up from the basement, including smoke that was still coming out of the shafts.



    That's what caused the buildings to sway. It's on the seismographs too.

    Btw, Morelli was obviously confused by what happened and said he was told that the main freight had fell, but that wasn't true. The guy operating the main freight fell a few floors on impact before the brakes caught, and he broke his leg, but there was absolutely nothing about a damned fireball coming all the way down the height of the towers into the basement. Those elevator shafts were supposedly just contained by gypsum board. Hardly the right material for delivering a hypothetical FAE across many hundreds of feet.

    Notice he also says he knows people who were killed in the basement.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 18th April 2019 at 05:44.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    Holograms can't cause buildings to sway at the moment of impact.
    Nor can they shoot plane parts out of the building at the moment of impact.
    Quote Nor can planes hit one side of a building and instantly eject an engine out of the other side, and even the news anchors that day were commenting on how bizarre that was.
    It wasn't instantly. If you watch the videos carefully you will see the exact delay you would expect.


    Quote There were bombs in the basement that detonated simultaneously with the "plane impacts,"
    Not simultaneously, but within seconds, yes.


    Quote There is lots of eyewitness testimony to basement explosions, it appears on the seismic records, and the French filmmakers who just happened to be at the WTC that morning also captured the chaos in the lobby from the basement explosions when they first entered the buildings. So it's on film.
    Correct.

    Quote The idea of a fuel-air fireball coming down the elevator shafts from some 100 floors up (one of the excuses half-heartedly offered by NIST with no investigation) is total nonsense and there is no evidence of it.
    Correct.

    Quote Only two elevators covered that distance and one of them, the main freight, had an operator who survived and reported no fireball, ever.
    Correct.

    Quote The explosions in the basement blew out elevator banks in the lobby, they were so severe. Off the top of my head, I think there was a guy named Philip Morelli who was a construction worker, and one of the eyewitnesses who testified to that blast. There were others as well, but it's been years since I was up to snuff on all of this stuff.
    Correct.


    Quote That's what caused the buildings to sway. It's on the seismographs too.

    If I push you at your chest you will sway/move/fall in the direction I am pushing you.
    If there is an explosion in the basement of a building that shakes the building, and you are standing on the 80th floor of that building, you won't be pushed to
    the side. You might loose your footing and fall down, but you won't be pushed to the side.

    The buildings swayed in the same direction of the force of the airplanes.
    They didn't sway in the opposite direction, in a 90 degree direction nor in a 270 degree direction.

    Only an extremely powerful hologram could cause that.


    This planes/no planes argument is really trivial in the big picture.

    The biggest shock and awe event that occurred on 9/11 was the nuclear destruction of the three towers. Everything else was small potatoes.

    But the biggest and most important thing that we can all agree on is that 9/11 was a false flag inside job that allowed the bogus "War on Terror" to be rammed down our throats.
    Last edited by DaveToo; 18th April 2019 at 17:44.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    It wasn't instantly. If you watch the videos carefully you will see the exact delay you would expect.
    This is a pretty minor point in the grand scheme of things, considering how much we already agree upon, so I'm not going to make a big deal out of this whole question. But, I don't know how exactly one could determine what amount of delay to expect in a realistic scenario. All I know is that the timing doesn't "look right," and I'm not the only one who thinks that.

    Even the news anchor in this clip notices that something was not right, if you listen starting around the 1:50 time stamp:



    Here's his exact words in the clip above:

    Quote [News anchor:] You know, Donald, we were looking at pictures all morning long of that that plane coming into building number two, and when you see that approach the far side, and then all of a sudden, within a matter of milliseconds, the explosion pops out the other side.

    [Trump:] Right.
    Like I said above, I was skeptical of the "no planes" stuff for years, and I'm still not arguing that they were holograms (I watched the Naudet footage over and over and I'm skeptical that the people on the streets of NY saw or heard the first plane at all! I never saw anyone looking up, and this is restricted airspace to by flying so low). If you look at the structure of the buildings, and look at the plane parts that supposedly went through there like a hot knife through butter, you're talking about relatively small plane debris going through a very massive steel structure with enormous box columns in its center, not to mention thick concrete slab floors on steel trusses, and of course the steel perimeter columns.

    I looked at the available structural plans and models of the buildings for years, and there is no way I can realistically visualize an aluminum plane, even with steel engine components, going through that building so quickly, or even at all. And neither could Donald Trump that morning, though he had the question instantly whereas it took me several years to come around to it.

    Quote If I push you at your chest you will sway/move/fall in the direction I am pushing you.
    If there is an explosion in the basement of a building that shakes the building, and you are standing on the 80th floor of that building, you won't be pushed to
    the side. You might loose your footing and fall down, but you won't be pushed to the side.
    I get your point, but those blasts were big enough to register on seismographs. And those buildings were built to sway to some extent, and often did sway slightly even with the wind. I also think they detonated something at the impact sites, so that could also cause swaying. I guess my point is that there are multiple things that can explain swaying, besides just planes.

    Quote The buildings swayed in the same direction of the force of the airplanes.
    They didn't sway in the opposite direction, in a 90 degree direction nor in a 270 degree direction.
    Is there a video or some other source that documents the direct and amount of sway of the buildings on impact?

    Quote Only an extremely powerful hologram could cause that.
    I'm also skeptical of the hologram theory, for the record.

    Quote The biggest shock and awe event that occurred on 9/11 was the nuclear destruction of the three towers. Everything else was small potatoes.
    I agree with you on the evidence for nuclear detonations too. I realize that also sounds absurd to people, and it also sounded absurd to me at first, but that's a whole separate discussion. There are plenty of indications of it, though, from sublimating steel, to the particle sizes in the dust, to the massive amounts of tritium being produced by all the water being dumped on the hot debris piles.

    Quote But the biggest and most important thing that we can all agree on is that 9/11 was a false flag inside job that allowed the bogus "War on Terror" to be rammed down our throats.
    Yep.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)

    Here's his exact words in the clip above:

    Quote [News anchor:] You know, Donald, we were looking at pictures all morning long of that that plane coming into building number two, and when you see that approach the far side, and then all of a sudden, within a matter of milliseconds, the explosion pops out the other side.

    [Trump:] Right.

    In the Evan Fairbanks video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBEQFrArWCw

    at 1:00 the timing is as would be expected. There is a delay.

    It is possible to easily calculate the time required for the engine to exit the other side of the building.
    We know the speed of the plane, the width of the building. It's just a physics formula.


    Quote If you look at the structure of the buildings, and look at the plane parts that supposedly went through there like a hot knife through butter, you're talking about relatively small plane debris going through a very massive steel structure with enormous box columns in its center, not to mention thick concrete slab floors on steel trusses, and of course the steel perimeter columns.
    You're using the language that many people mimic.

    Most people say "well how could an aluminum plane possibly cut through thick steel columns?"

    That's the thing. It couldn't and it didn't!

    Well then how did it enter the building?

    None of the steel columns were cut by the plane!

    Each steel assembly was connected with the next assembly by bolts.
    The bolts popped!
    The small bolts were no match for the incoming plane's momentum.
    And the plane then simply pushed the steel inwards, it didn't cut the steel.

    Look at all the photos/videos carefully.
    You will not find a single column that was cut along its length.
    You will see the columns break from the columns below right at the joints where the bolts used to be.

    The plane also was shredded between the columns (open window space)
    The shredded plane parts easily pushed their way into the building


    Quote Is there a video or some other source that documents the direct and amount of sway of the buildings on impact?
    There are several. I don't have their links now though. It wouldn't be too hard to find.
    Last edited by DaveToo; 19th April 2019 at 00:26.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Hologram technology is much more advanced, capable of creating imagery and sound.
    The damages to the sides of the Twin Towers were results of explosions, not any flying objects hitting the affected sides.

    Prior to 911, workers were wiring something and these workers probably were Masons, who would shut up or testify falsely at the drop of a hat. Obviously bombs were everywhere in the buildings, for the explosions I mentioned as well as for demolition, Building 7 style.

    What do professional pilots say? They wouldn't be able to fly the planes they way they did.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Frenchy (here)
    Oh , COME ON, children ! Don't you realise there was an atual ENGINE found, projected a long way by velocity ?
    Strange thing is, this ENGINe, happened to NOT be FROM the type alledged ! !

    I would've liked to have been there when the individual who organised putting the Engine there, said, it doesn't matter, what typ just get any old engine and do your job ... just make sure it IS an aircraft engine ! !, not some old Buick or Chevvy !

    But on a serious note,
    I'm sorry to see so many disinfo agents spending ther time on PA. 9/11 is thoroughly cut & dried, not only that, there's an abundence of "piss-taking " prior announcements, in the many different forms, from Simpsons, Mario Bros, to illuminati playing card games.....

    Some disinfo agents tried to discredit Dr Judy Woods, despite her magnificent work, saying no trace of Thermite found ! or her theory of " Hutchinsons research " is crazy,
    In short, Exotic weapons were certainly the cause of Dustification, and other elements were brought into use, such as Holographics, Pre-Demolition charges etc.etc...

    For what it is worth imho, this same Directed - Energy beam, is the tool being used to create , ( or propogate ) , Sink Holes, in many cases, after all TPTB have GPR so they can locate undergroung streams, culverts, upon which to create devastation... Not convinced ? the prime example, is that where a whole double line of cars fell into a linear culvert... There is absolutely NO reason for that total linear collapse, unless assisted by an Energy-Beam...
    Those engines lol.. Still makes me laugh... But in a sad way...

    When I was researching for myself the "Attack".. I came across a film that I can't find when looking online myself.. and it had actual footage of them shooting video from above the streets, NEAR the buildings, and there were HUGE round holes in the ground where nothing fell and nothing collapsed.. There wasn't any indication percussion forced air to blow these holes OUTWARD... The footage was never to be seen again by my eyes, no matter how many times I tried to refresh it and watch it again. It was a "One time viewing" courtesy of ??? It IMPLIED that they missed their target with their beam weapon and rather than shooting a hold through the middle of the buildings they hit a spot on the street in several locations instead!

    While I cant prove that was what the holes are, that is surely what it looked like to me.. At the time however someone was "Sharing" some rather unusual videos with me, that I was never able to find again.. Using remote control over my device. I WISH I could find that video on mainstream sites and share the link.. It certainly would have others scratching their heads as well, because if that isn't what those holes were, what were they? They certainly didn't belong there.
    Last edited by Denise/Dizi; 19th April 2019 at 06:11. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    In the Evan Fairbanks video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBEQFrArWCw

    at 1:00 the timing is as would be expected. There is a delay.

    It is possible to easily calculate the time required for the engine to exit the other side of the building.
    We know the speed of the plane, the width of the building. It's just a physics formula.
    You mean a formula for calculating unresisted travel through the air? Yes, that would be awfully simple to do. But don't you think that would be missing a little something?

    Quote None of the steel columns were cut by the plane!

    Each steel assembly was connected with the next assembly by bolts.
    The bolts popped!
    The small bolts were no match for the incoming plane's momentum.
    And the plane then simply pushed the steel inwards, it didn't cut the steel.
    The end-to-end bolts would have been the least amount of resistance provided by the exterior.



    Each set of perimeter columns was fastened to the floor trusses and the concrete slabs sitting on them in a staggered fashion as you see above. The perimeter column sections were also attached to each other via the spandrel plates.

    The spandrel plates were welded, as per chapter 2 of FEMA's report:

    Quote In general, each exterior wall module consisted of three columns, three stories tall, interconnected by the spandrel plates, using all-welded construction.
    Welds, done correctly, are supposed to be stronger than the steel itself. That's standard for any kind of welding. So the steel itself would have had to be have been torn before the spandrel plates gave way regardless of the bolts. The perimeter columns were welded to each other in a staggered fashion across the whole exterior building face.

    If a bird, made of meat and small bones, can knock a big dent in a fuselage, then what would concrete slabs on steel trusses behind those columns do?

    Quote
    Quote Is there a video or some other source that documents the direct and amount of sway of the buildings on impact?
    There are several. I don't have their links now though. It wouldn't be too hard to find.
    Since it's not that hard to find them, maybe you could post them later, because in all the years I looked into 9/11, I never saw or heard of anyone measuring the amount of building sway through available videos. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm skeptical.

    NIST tried measuring the amount of deflection visible in the columns around the fires and even that was problematic, because the exterior aluminum coverings were loose and half-detached from the actual steel in so many places that you couldn't tell what angles you were even looking at. I can only imagine that trying to calculate building sway from videos, looking at the buildings from an angle, would also not be a straightforward process, and even after that amount of sway is determined, to try to correlate it to mathematical models of either plane impacts or explosive detonations would be even more complicated, not to mention highly theoretical.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Bombs could have been built-in from the time of the construction.

    The Twin Towers, symbolizing the columns in the Philistine temple hairless Samson supposedly destroyed, were meant to denote the end of the Old World to usher in the New World Order.

    Thus the Twin Towers, just like the Fukushima reactors, were designed from the get-go to be destroyed at a later date.

    One more plane was needed to hit Building 7 nearby, but there wasn't.
    Siverstein "pulled" it anyway for insurance money.

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    Default Re: No Planes?

    Quote Posted by Didgevillage (here)
    Bombs could have been built-in from the time of the construction.
    I've heard that theory, but there are some problems with it, mostly to do with degradation of conventional explosives over all those years, and lot of indications of things going on in the buildings just prior to 9/11, like bomb-sniffing dogs being removed and a lot of suspicious "construction" by foreigners.

    The idea that they were built with the intention of destroying them later is not at all far-fetched to me though. The buildings were almost named "David" and "Nelson" because David and Nelson Rockefeller were the driving forces behind their construction. Nelson was the governor of New York at the time and David was providing the financing if I remember correctly. They carved out the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and gave it police and political independence that neither the state of New York nor New Jersey had jurisdiction over. The whole complex seems to have been created for criminal activity that no one else had oversight over from the beginning.

    WTC7 also housed a lot of legal documents relating to financial fraud and other conspiracies. The Enron scandal's paperwork was in there, for example. There was also a lot of gold stored at the WTC complex that went missing after the attacks. They managed find ways of making lots of things conveniently "disappear" during those attacks, including top FBI counter-terrorism expert John O'Neil.

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