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Thread: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    What is displayed on that diagram is a "plume" expanding SW with its accompanying heat column... it's not going east.

    Hence, that's not a "moot" point.
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    ^^^^

    Oh! Really!!!

    What I see in that diagram is a clearly existing "Known Magma Chamber" extending beyond the border of the Yellowstone Caldera in an easterly direction (upper right portion of the diagram), accompanied by an area under that Known Magma Chamber titled, "Newly Discovered Magma Reservoir".

    By the color variations in the diagram one can clearly see the Newly Discovered Magma Reservoir is adding heat to the Known Magma Chamber.

    Any southwesterly indication on the diagram is irrelevant, as the diagram clearly shows the sub-Mantle Plume adding heat to the Newly Discovered Magma Reaervoir, through the Upper Most Mantle, which in turn, is adding heat to the Known Magma Chamber.

    Granted, the area in the Known Magma Chamber is indicated as the hottest directly under the Yellowstone Caldera, but (and this is a BIG observation), the area of the Known Magma Chamber is closest to the surface to the eastern part of the existing caldera - and extends completely out of the park.

    Given the understanding that any future eruption would take the path of least resistance, it stands to reason the data shows the greatest threat-potential lies to the East of Yellowstone.

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    Even from the seismic data you are referencing, in the last image from your comment #20, the seismic sourced data clearly indicates the location of the plum to extend beyond the eastern border of Yellowstone Park.
    I'm confused - the images I see posted in, and linked from, comment #20, all seem to show the large, deep, plume, extending to the NW of the Yellowstone caldera, as one goes deeper below the surface, not to the SE. What image or data "clearly indicates the location of the plum to extend beyond the eastern border of Yellowstone Park." ?

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    What I see in that diagram is a clearly existing "Known Magma Chamber" extending beyond the border of the Yellowstone Caldera in an easterly direction (upper right portion of the diagram), accompanied by an area under that Known Magma Chamber titled, "Newly Discovered Magma Reservoir".
    Ah - yes - the "Known Magma Chamber", near the surface, does extend the other way, SE of the Yellowstone Caldera.

    While the deeper, larger, plume, extends the other way, NW of the Yellowstone Caldera.

    So my preliminary conclusion is that this dispute arises from everyone not using the terms "plume" and "magma chamber" in the same, consistent way as everyone else.
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Paul,

    Magma follows in the path of least resistance. Try to follow what I said in comment #27. My argument is all quite logical, it simply goes beyond the current geologically accepted Model.

    Add Text: [It would be interesting to know when the diagram Amzer posted was actually made, and if there is any recent update to the tempeture of the Known Magma Chamber. ]
    Last edited by observer; 19th April 2016 at 16:52. Reason: add text

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    Paul,

    Magma follows in the path of least resistance. Try to follow what I said in comment #27. My argument is all quite logical, it simply goes beyond the current geologically accepted Model.
    I believe I understand and find reasonable your argument.

    Where I think things went astray was in referring to the SE extension as a plume, not a magma chamber .
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 19th April 2016 at 16:53.
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    ^^^^
    Thank you Paul for your input. I have gone back and corrected my error to [alleviate] any further confusion....
    Last edited by observer; 19th April 2016 at 17:11. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    ^^^^
    Thank you Paul for your input. I have gone back and corrected my error to elevate any further confusion....
    Good .
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    ^^^^
    Thank you Paul for your input. I have gone back and corrected my error to elevate any further confusion....
    From a captivated fan in the cheap seats ... I love the humor ... but would that be "eleviate" ... or else I am indeed *damn* confused

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Alleviate actually...

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Thank you Calz, but we were both wrong. My spell check changed the word to elevate, as I was typing fast and typed the same word as you, but I was actually after "alleviate". As Sierra has indicated. It's corrected!

    Now.... could we all return to comment #21 and resume the debate with all the terminology corrections, so that this issue can be resolved, or at least acknowledged as a possibility....

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    To view Herve's comment #20, click on forwarding icon
    From the links you offered in your comment, Amzer, I have discovered there is another reference to the size of the Known Magma Chamber under Yellowstone.

    Taken from a link you offered in an exchange with Snowbird, in the thread, "Yellowstone Announced to be Much Bigger Than Originally Thought", I discovered data from an array of sensors funded by the National Science Foundation referred to in the article as the "MT survey".

    From the article:
    Quote "Past imaging efforts have used seismic waves to detect the border between molten and solid rock. These have indicated that the mantle plume originates somewhere deep under Idaho and slopes eastward as it rises to meet the surface under Wyoming.

    The new picture roughly agrees with this, but suggests the area heated by the plume may be far more extensive than indicated by the seismic data. It relies on what is termed magneto-telluric (MT) readings, which register subtle changes in the Earth's conductivity and magnetic fields. These register differences in temperature and composition of the rock and fluids, as these change alter the conductivity of the crust."
    From the image, one can find in that article, I isolated the MT data portion, from which one can clearly see a large area of magma extending far beyond the Eastern borders of the Yellowstone Park.



    This data goes further to support the concerns I've expressed in earlier comments....

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    My point (post # 20) was:


    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    [...]




    The above are the various, current models derived from the recorded seismic data. They show that there is no new eastward migration of either plume or magma chambers.
    [/CENTER]
    That same post also mentions this:

    Quote
    Caption: This is a cross section of the plume of hot and molten rock that tops out about 50 miles beneath Yellowstone National Park, and tilts downward to the northwest to a depth of at least 410 miles. The plume is mostly hot rock with about 1 to 2 percent molten rock. Researches believe "blobs" of hot rock slowly detach from the top of the plume and rise upward to recharge the magma chamber that lies from 3.7 to 10 miles beneath Yellowstone. The chamber is also mostly hot rock, but with a sponge-like structure containing about 8 to 15 percent molten rock.
    In other words, it's far from a lava lake that's under there.


    Update:
    Quote observer: From the image, one can find in that article, I isolated the MT data portion, from which one can clearly see a large area of magma extending far beyond the Eastern borders of the Yellowstone Park.
    Not actual magma, only hydrothermally heated rocks (see post # 22)
    Last edited by Hervé; 19th April 2016 at 17:58.
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Oh! I see how this works now!!!

    You take the words from an article (from which I produced a diagram) that shows a much larger area of superheated rock, which extends far to the East, beyond the boundary of the Yellowstone Caldara, and you then apply those words to some undescribed "chamber".

    You then Ignore the fact that in the diagram you produced, using the words, "Newly Discovered Magma Chamber" and "Known Magma Chamber", and suggest the substance in some unspecified "chamber" is nothing more than "hydrothermally heated rocks, but with a sponge-like structure containing about 8 to 15 percent molten rock"
    .
    I guess this is an example of how someone can have it both ways!!!

    I see now why a fictional character in a popular sitcom regularly makes the claim, "geology isn't a real science".



    add text:With this comment, I will exit this debate. I can see there is no way to convince those firmly stuck in the conventional model of any alternate possibilities. This is becoming a waste of my time.
    Last edited by observer; 19th April 2016 at 22:12. Reason: add text/clarity

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Observer, I appreciate your input to the discussion. Please don't abandon it. Gives me something to mentally chew on.

    We'll work through it and maybe figure this stuff out. That's why we're here, after all.

    I have been following patiently the work of Mitch Batross, ex-owner of the site Earth Changes Media and now writing at Science of Cycles, who has been trying to figure things out for a long time.

    His understanding of what's going on is this:



    New Equation:
    Increase Charged Particles Decreased Magnetic Field → Increase Outer Core Convection → Increase of Mantle Plumes → Increase in Earthquake and Volcanoes → Cools Mantle and Outer Core → Return of Outer Core Convection (Mitch Battros - July 2012)
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    ^^^^
    Thank you for the invitation to return, MorningSong.

    Amzer Zo's condescending tone at my earlier improper use of terminology, when he well knew what I was trying to say, frustrated me enough to want to leave this debate.

    I'm a firm believer in the Electric Model of the Universe as proposed by Wallace Thornhill and David Talbott, and have spent a good amount of time during my sojurn at Avalon referencing their work at the Thunderbolt Project. There can be no doubt, the Electric Model is driving the tectonic forces on the planet, with a direct relationship to the sun's activity.

    Here's something for you to "chew" on:

    Established fact - The North American Plate is moving westward. It has been for millions of years. At the same time the Juan de Fuca Plate is moving eastward causing a subduction zone at the boundary. All tectonic activity occurs in the upper crust, or lithosphere, above the mantle of magma (beneath).

    Now, look carefully at the diagram that has caused so much controversy:


    Notice that below the "Uppermost Mantle" there's a "Mantle Plume" with directional arrows indicating a westward movement. Above that Mantle Plume there is a "Newly Discovered Magma Chamber" with a "Known Magma Chamber" above that.

    Take particular note, the "Known Magma Chamber" is located in the "Upper Crust" (the lithosphere) which is not defined in the diagram. That "Known Magma Chamber" has remained stationary over the hotspot (defined in the diagram as the "Mantle Plume"), for millions of years, i.e.,, the "Mantle Plume" is not moving, the tectonic plate above it is.

    Now consider this: the "Mantle Plume" is the result of the subduction occurring at the plate boundary, which is not shown in the diagram, but if you look at the surface features in the diagram, you can clearly see that a large portion of the "Mantle Plume" exists under water, i.e. the Pacific Ocean.

    Conclusions from what we know (from the diagram):
    1. The directional arrows indicated in the "Mantle Plume" are irrelevant.
    2. The "Newly Discovered Magma Chamber" and the "Known Magma Chamber" are receiving heat from the "Mantle Plume", and for millions of years this process has continued in exactly the structure as indicated in the diagram, the only variable being the westward movement of the North American Plate above the structure.
    3. All of this structure is happening far below any tectonic activity. In fact, it is the subduction at the plate boundary that is causing the "Mantle Plume" (hotspot) in the first place.
    4. Even though the color coding in the diagram indicates the hottest temperature of magma in the "Known Magma Chamber" is hottest under the Yellowstone Caldaria, that "Known Magma Chamber" extends beyond the border of the Yellowstone Park, and is closer to the surface in that extended area - Magma Follows The Path Of Least Resistance.

    It's my speculation, all we need is a massive earthquake at the subduction zone along the Pacific Coast, and that will cause an hydraulic surge in the "Mantle Plume" that will superheat the "Known Magma Chamber".

    Amzer Zo's explanation to Snowbird, here, doesn't take into consideration, that all of this "Mantle Plume" (hotspot) activity is occurring far below the lithosphere, down in the Mantle.

    Dating-back to July, 2015 there have been public warnings of a massive earthquake pending along the Washington/Oregon/Northern California Coast:



    I invite the members to put it all together, and "chew" on that....
    Last edited by observer; 20th April 2016 at 13:24. Reason: clarity

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [...]
    Amzer Zo's condescending tone at my earlier improper use of terminology, when he well knew what I was trying to say, frustrated me enough to want to leave this debate.
    [...]
    Projecting much? Because, it's a lot more than confusing the terminology used, it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what's written as well as the data provided, e.g.:
    Quote [...]
    Established fact - The North American Plate is moving westward. It has been for millions of years. At the same time the Juan de Fuca Plate is moving eastward causing a subduction zone at the boundary.
    That's not established at all and is the subject of endless debates:
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    [...]These are the current recognized hot spots/plumes world wide. What's known with certainty is the relative displacement between crust and plume. What's unknown is if the plumes are totally fixed as in the 19 degrees latitude thing or wandering as in the shift of the magnetic poles would indicate. To be resolved.[...]
    The North American continent is moving "westward" only with respect to Europe and Africa when the latter are taken as the reference frame.

    As at yet no one knows for certain if the North American continent is moving westward in an absolute manner: it could be pinned down to the mantle, in which case it would be Africa and Europe as well as Japan that are moving eastward and getting closer to the west coast of the North American continent when the latter is taken as the reference frame.

    In any case, it is the Pacific Ocean that is shrinking and the Atlantic Ocean that's expanding.

    Quasar calibrated GPS may answer that question as to which continent to pick as an "immobile" reference frame, if any, soon.


    Quote All tectonic activity occurs in the upper crust, or lithosphere, above the mantle of magma (beneath).

    Now, look carefully at the diagram that has caused so much controversy:

    There was no "controversy" nor confusion on my part with this diagram. My point of contention was with the interpretation given to this diagram:

    ... which demonstrated the complete misunderstanding of the article it came from as well as the confirmation bias point.

    Quote [...]
    ... That "Known Magma Chamber" has remained stationary over the hotspot (defined in the diagram as the "Mantle Plume"), for millions of years, i.e.,, the "Mantle Plume" is not moving, the tectonic plate above it is.
    [...]
    ... so... is it stationary? Or is it moving?

    Quote Now consider this: the "Mantle Plume" is the result of the subduction occurring at the plate boundary, which is not shown in the diagram,
    That's the thing with "Mantle Plumes": they are independent from subduction zones:




    The volcanic activity connected to the subduction zone generated the Cascade Range NOT Yellowstone

    Quote but if you look at the surface features in the diagram, you can clearly see that a large portion of the "Mantle Plume" exists under water, i.e. the Pacific Ocean.
    ... this should be embarrassing... because, if we take the horizontal scale of one "Yellowstone-Caldera-diameter" from that diagram and translate it along that NE-SW cross section... and we find that the Pacific has moved into Idaho:


    Quote [...]
    I invite the members to put it all together, and "chew" on that....
    Yes, please, chew it real good
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    to see Herve's comment #40, click-on the forwarding icon.
    Are you seriously making the claim that the North American Plate is stationary in the western region? Seriously?

    Full-well being aware of the Snake River Plain?

    Quote "Current studies suggest that the Snake River Plain resulted from the passage of the North American Plate over a stationary mantle plume or “hotspot” that is currently located beneath Yellowstone National Park" - from here
    Talk about a complete misunderstanding, the MT Data image was posted specifically to show there are other sources of evidence indicating a much wider field of magma, extending far into the heartland of Wyoming, than was previously understood. You, sir, picked the word "magma" apart, in an attempt to demonstrate your superior knowledge, when it was perfectly obvious of what I was speaking.

    ....And your continued use of this image is laughable:



    The diagram is describing only what is occurring in the crust (lithosphere). It doesn't address any conditions deep in the Mantle, the way this diagram does:



    ....and the water indicated in the surface conditions of this diagram are describing the Pacific Ocean, unless you can show me a large body of water between Yellowstone and the Pacific ocean. The scale on that diagram is completely distorted.

    It should be obvious, the Juan de Fuca/North American Subduction Zone is responsible for the hotspot that caused Yellowstone, and it should be obvious that hotspot has remained stationary while the North American plate has continuously moved westward over that stationary spot - just like are the conditions at all the other hotspots found around the world....
    Last edited by observer; 20th April 2016 at 17:50. Reason: add link/clarity

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Right now, I'd say the whole pacific plate is moving! Whatever was before, isn't now...

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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    to see Herve's comment #40, click-on the forwarding icon.
    Are you seriously making the claim that the North American Plate is stationary in the western region? Seriously?

    Full-well being aware of the Snake River Plain?

    Quote "Current studies suggest that the Snake River Plain resulted from the passage of the North American Plate over a stationary mantle plume or “hotspot” that is currently located beneath Yellowstone National Park" - from here
    That's an evidence of ONLY a RELATIVE motion between the two. Anything else is assumption/interpretation. It is in no way an evidence that a hot spot is not moving as well. Hence the endless debates:
    Quote That's not established at all and is the subject of endless debates:
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    [...]These are the current recognized hot spots/plumes world wide. What's known with certainty is the relative displacement between crust and plume. What's unknown is if the plumes are totally fixed as in the 19 degrees latitude thing or wandering as in the shift of the magnetic poles would indicate. To be resolved.[...]
    The North American continent is moving "westward" only with respect to Europe and Africa when the latter are taken as the reference frame.

    As at yet no one knows for certain if the North American continent is moving westward in an absolute manner: it could be pinned down to the mantle, in which case it would be Africa and Europe as well as Japan that are moving eastward and getting closer to the west coast of the North American continent when the latter is taken as the reference frame.

    In any case, it is the Pacific Ocean that is shrinking and the Atlantic Ocean that's expanding.

    Quasar calibrated GPS may answer that question as to which continent to pick as an "immobile" reference frame, if any, soon.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Quote Talk about a complete misunderstanding, the MT Data image was posted specifically to show there are other sources of evidence indicating a much wider field of magma, extending far into the heartland of Wyoming, than was previously understood.
    Re-read that article and realize it's talking about "hot rocks," NOT magma:
    Quote Past imaging efforts have used seismic waves to detect the border between molten and solid rock. These have indicated that the mantle plume originates somewhere deep under Idaho and slopes eastward as it rises to meet the surface under Wyoming.
    The new picture roughly agrees with this, but suggests the area heated by the plume may be far more extensive than indicated by the seismic data. It relies on what is termed magneto-telluric (MT) readings, which register subtle changes in the Earth's conductivity and magnetic fields. These register differences in temperature and composition of the rock and fluids, as these change alter the conductivity of the crust.
    [...]
    The resulting picture suggests that the molten rock of the mantle plume seen in seismic images is only the core of a much larger volume of hot crust. Although this area isn't molten, the high temperatures allow water to pick up elevated levels of salt, which enables its detection through the MT monitoring equipment.
    http://arstechnica.com/science/2011/...than-expected/
    ---------------------------------------------

    Quote You, sir, picked the word "magma" apart, in an attempt to demonstrate your superior knowledge, when it was perfectly obvious of what I was speaking.
    That was to make other readers understand that it's not a lava lake that's sitting in that "known magma chamber": hot rocks melted at 8-15%

    --------------------------------------------

    Quote ....And your continued use of this image is laughable:



    The diagram is describing only what is occurring in the crust (lithosphere). It doesn't address any conditions deep in the Mantle, the way this diagram does:


    All right:

    ... still laughing?

    How about this:

    -----------------------------------------------

    Quote ....and the water indicated in the surface conditions of this diagram are describing the Pacific Ocean, unless you can show me a large body of water between Yellowstone and the Pacific ocean. The scale on that diagram is completely distorted.
    I don't see any legend there indicating that blue layer being water, much less the Pacific Ocean.

    What I do see is a vertical scale and a horizontal scale given by the caldera diameter which topographical features are represented; but no Cascade Range relief being shown... so, maybe the scales aren't distorted that much?

    Quote It should be obvious,....
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Give it up Hervé, you're loosing points in this debate with each comment.

    1. The only movement of the North American Plate in question, is that sharply focused area including the Juan de Fuca/North American Subduction Zone, out-to the Yellowstone Caldaria, including only the zone where the hotspot exists. Any other element of your talking-points is moot to the debate. Your suggestion to a "relative motion" in that specific area is, in effect, a stipulation to the motion, I'm emphasizing.

    2. You still cannot get past the magma vs. hot rock issue, while from the start, debating the semantics of the words was your thing. I represented the MT Data diagram wholly to show the extent of the superheated area using alternate data. Berating that intent with a meaningless debate over the definition of words, appears to me, a sophomoric strategy.

    3. And finely.... yes, I'm LMAO at the new diagrams you have produced. Neither of them extends the Asthenosphere beyond the Cascade range, even though, at the cut-off point of both diagrams, there's a clear indication of bright red activity to the East of where the diagram ends. Where-in the diagram I've republished (below) clearly indicates a much bigger picture of everything in the specific zone in question.

    BTW: If you look at the depiction of the Pacific Ocean in your final diagram (the pie-shaped one), it appears exactly as the depiction of what I'm calling the Pacific Ocean in the out of scale diagram that you produced earlier - (republished below) Your explanation of scale shows no understanding of a schematic diagram.


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    United States Avalon Member Calz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Yellowstone Seismic Activity Thread

    Not a popularity contest.

    I deeply appreciate both of your contributions.


    We ... the majority of members ... are trying to figure it out and both of you make tremendous contributions in that regard.

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