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Thread: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Pinkish light again seems reminiscent of lightning, where the pinkish part is the plasma of nitrogen.



    At the first stage.

    Shadow people would seem to be under an energized astral corpse which would be under a dead sorceror in terms of ability. Theosophy is normally against the death penalty because they make the worst kind of ghosts with the longest lifespans. The moment of death is fairly influential on the after death state.

    Koothoomi said that he psychically contacted Laura Holloway three times. After that, it was her imagination, and he warned her severely to stay away from the Sinnett's house which had a colony of Bhuta (Spooks). Even though she was a natural clairvoyant, she still pretty much lost her grip on it. He also said that if he expended some power, the Black Lodge was allowed to spend the same power. Momentum in perfect equilibrium, same Baphomet works for either one.

    Especially on a sexual level it's strongly possible that if one was the opposite sex in the previous lifetime, then one's Dweller on the Threshhold could be the incubus succubus. Whether an astral corpse, shell, could gain anything from another shell, I am not sure. I think the shells kind of drift around in their own rivers and waterways, certain areas attract them more than others, flowing downhill so to speak. So if you were the Sinnetts and you lived somewhere else...maybe that wouldn't have happened, but when the chance was there it was easy.

    HPB tended to say the imitators were the most insidious enemies. The critics were easy. Even the what she called Spookical Research Society wound up saying their report was only the opinion of Mr. Hodgson. She found that the ordinary person could not distinguish between a mediumistically conjured Spook and the astrally projected mayavirupa of a living person.

    Death is described not as prana leaving the body, but the body leaves prana. Auric egg is in perpetual motion and the body leaves that state or condition. The linga sharira or double slips out of the egg to hover around the body, and the egg goes on to make the Spook in kama loka. Manas lets go of it and dreams in Deva-chan, and the Spook floats around depending on its kama manas. It is the appearance and memory of the person, but the soul is gone.

    Sleep is due to an overload of prana; upon waking, the brain begins to distribute it around the body throughout the day, until getting that heaviness, which means the organs are full.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Wow, I firstly state that where I might disagree on small particulars, I'm not stating I'm right and your wrong, it's more along the lines of personal opinion and I'm only stating so for clarification. Over all this was very well written and very insightful. I agree on far more of it than I disagree with it.


    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Shadow people would seem to be under an energized astral corpse which would be under a dead sorceror in terms of ability. Theosophy is normally against the death penalty because they make the worst kind of ghosts with the longest lifespans. The moment of death is fairly influential on the after death state.

    Energized astral corpse is a phrase that could use some fleshing out. This is an area of discussion I've attempted with folks many times and no one will enter into the discussion on this. No one will participate in a dialogue is what I mean.
    I'm of the opinion that there are several energy bodies that make up the body which is where upon the soul resides. I'm quoting Hinduism below but I'm pretty sure Blavatsky would be cool with that. Now I've always been of the opinion that this collection of energetic bodies die and literally rot just like your physical body upon death, with your soul leaving to enter into the higher dimensions through the tunnel that is seen upon death.


    1. Anna Maya Kosha: The body made of physical matter

    2. Prana Maya Kosha: The body made of vital energy

    3. Mano Maya Kosha: The body of thought energy

    4. Vijnana Maya Kosha: The body of higher intelligence

    5. Ananda Maya Kosha: The body of mystical awareness






    And what you are saying here, is that what we term Shadow People could in fact be re-animated dead energy bodies that are acting in accordance with a soul who has chosen not to cross over. A soul who is schooled in the arcane arts and would be what most would consider a sorcerer. This is really good stuff. Have you ran into data that would support this supposition? Regardless I think it has legs.


    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Koothoomi said that he psychically contacted Laura Holloway three times. After that, it was her imagination, and he warned her severely to stay away from the Sinnett's house which had a colony of Bhuta (Spooks). Even though she was a natural clairvoyant, she still pretty much lost her grip on it. He also said that if he expended some power, the Black Lodge was allowed to spend the same power. Momentum in perfect equilibrium, same Baphomet works for either one.
    You could expand on this if you were so inclined. I've never been exposed to these characters from our history. Although I've read In so far as Blavatsky's work, I've never engaged in Biographical type stories pertaining to her life beyond periphery research. So feel free to expand on such stories as if I've never heard about these folks, because I have not.

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Especially on a sexual level it's strongly possible that if one was the opposite sex in the previous lifetime, then one's Dweller on the Threshhold could be the incubus succubus.
    I'm not sure what one's "Dweller on the Threshhold" is.
    I will comment on the incubus/succubus labels. I know there is quite a bit of literature on the subject but I'm of the certainty 99% or more of these manifestations are ghosts/souls of human beings who are attempting to syphon energy because they have "chosen" not to cross over for one reason or another. I've seen this activity first hand. Not all souls cross over upon death, and although I will hand it to you that it seems quite possible abandoned energy shells may attempt to live on, these are not what I'm talking about here.


    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Whether an astral corpse, shell, could gain anything from another shell, I am not sure. I think the shells kind of drift around in their own rivers and waterways, certain areas attract them more than others, flowing downhill so to speak. So if you were the Sinnetts and you lived somewhere else...maybe that wouldn't have happened, but when the chance was there it was easy.
    I'll have to state something not in the form of an argument but in the form of personal experience which can not be really substantiated whether or not I'm truthful, prone to illusians and or an out and out liar. I can only share my observations.
    I would never try to push these observations as truth for anyone.
    It is my experience that all of modern in society in so far as sex is practiced has an attachment to this shadow race. I do not feel I am the exception here but rather the rule. I feel there is some merit in so far as mystic levels of various religions attempting to remain celibate. From what I can see even if you are only participating in sex to the point of masturbation you are still feeding this shadow people race of beings. I can elaborate if anyone wishes me to.

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Death is described not as prana leaving the body, but the body leaves prana. Auric egg is in perpetual motion and the body leaves that state or condition. The linga sharira or double slips out of the egg to hover around the body, and the egg goes on to make the Spook in kama loka.

    I sense this is fleshing out as I was alluding to earlier.
    "the egg goes on to make the spook or kama loka".
    Although I have my own evidence as to why I think this could very well be the case for Shadow beings and it is very insightful for you to bridge this gap so to speak. I do not think this is the case for ghosts or souls that leave the body, they have a choice as to what they can do and where they can go. If they choose they can stay on earth with a combined stay on the astral plane, doing such insures that they no longer have the benefit of their energy body and or the prana associated with it as such they must take this energy from the living, but if they choose to go through the tunnel and into the higher dimensions they are not allowed to return. You will never see an enlightened ghost because all souls who cross over do not return to interfere with the classroom experiment once they've departed from it.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)

    Energized astral corpse is a phrase that could use some fleshing out. This is an area of discussion I've attempted with folks many times and no one will enter into the discussion on this. No one will participate in a dialogue is what I mean.
    I'm of the opinion that there are several energy bodies that make up the body which is where upon the soul resides. I'm quoting Hinduism below but I'm pretty sure Blavatsky would be cool with that. Now I've always been of the opinion that this collection of energetic bodies die and literally rot just like your physical body upon death, with your soul leaving to enter into the higher dimensions through the tunnel that is seen upon death.


    1. Anna Maya Kosha: The body made of physical matter

    2. Prana Maya Kosha: The body made of vital energy

    3. Mano Maya Kosha: The body of thought energy

    4. Vijnana Maya Kosha: The body of higher intelligence

    5. Ananda Maya Kosha: The body of mystical awareness


    Yes the koshas are the same concept. Consider the astral double or linga sharira as a human form inside prana maya kosha. Ananda maya kosha is Buddhi, and yet Atma is not exactly inside the person. Mano maya kosha is kama manas which becomes the Spook, or some kind of ghost, an astral corpse, shell, kama rupa.

    It may be confusing that the English word astral is used for the double, the prana maya kosha and the mano maya kosha. The double rots with the flesh (but not the bones), and the pranas that were used for physical life dissipate back into the cosmos. In this system, the vijnana and ananda koshas would be considered the soul. Kosha is a sheath, similar to the egg, which is a product of Atma and so there is no Atma kosha. All the koshas are maya, perishable or changeable, whereas atma is not.


    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    And what you are saying here, is that what we term Shadow People could in fact be re-animated dead energy bodies that are acting in accordance with a soul who has chosen not to cross over. A soul who is schooled in the arcane arts and would be what most would consider a sorcerer. This is really good stuff. Have you ran into data that would support this supposition? Regardless I think it has legs.
    For example in one of the previous posts, Michael Aquino explains his magical doctrine which is to achieve personal immortality in the kama manas or mano maya kosha. It would be a soulless condition where he had placed most of his manas or vijnana into it. I'm just visualizing the shells could continue in various ways, with the shadows being weak or nearly expired. More activity would make the Spook shinier. If a person had never put energy into kama manas, it would fade out quickly and peacefully; the average person is liable to many transmigrations or days of bardo, and unusual degrees of viciousness in one's nature make it correspondingly more potent.

    Would a sorceror living or dead send shells against living people, yes. As to whether there is a parasite upon parasite system amongst the dead, I don't know. Lovecraft's "Corpse-eating cult of Leng" is based on a real tribe whose name I can't remember.



    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    You could expand on this if you were so inclined. I've never been exposed to these characters from our history. Although I've read In so far as Blavatsky's work, I've never engaged in Biographical type stories pertaining to her life beyond periphery research. So feel free to expand on such stories as if I've never heard about these folks, because I have not.
    A. P. Sinnett was the editor of a newspaper in Simla, the last British town before the Trans-Himalaya. Koothoomi made up a thing for him called a "lay chela", someone who wasn't really taking any pledges, but earnestly trying to learn his teachings. So The Mahatma Letters are to him, and it's a pretty hefty bundle of stuff. Losing favor at his editor's job, money was attempted to be raised to start a new journal called The Phoenix, it didn't work out and he wound up going back to England. Laura Holloway was a born psychic from Tennesse. These people show how difficult chelaship is mentally and psychically.


    Dweller on the Threshhold is actually a term from the literature of Bulwer-Lytton in Zanoni. In this case it means that the Spook from one's previous incarnation has the strongest attraction towards one's new birth--as opposed to the fact that it should have disintegrated by then. So yes, if one has the Dweller as incubus succubus, that would be a siphoning ghost. I imagine they are driven by sex and all kinds of human behavior.


    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    the egg goes on to make the spook in kama loka
    Although I have my own evidence as to why I think this could very well be the case for Shadow beings and it is very insightful for you to bridge this gap so to speak. I do not think this is the case for ghosts or souls that leave the body, they have a choice as to what they can do and where they can go. If they choose they can stay on earth with a combined stay on the astral plane, doing such insures that they no longer have the benefit of their energy body and or the prana associated with it as such they must take this energy from the living, but if they choose to go through the tunnel and into the higher dimensions they are not allowed to return. You will never see an enlightened ghost because all souls who cross over do not return to interfere with the classroom experiment once they've departed from it.
    I think I see what you mean. Different operations in consciousness when dying. Crossover being more like the bardo transitions, and leaving the body being an astral projection that doesn't come back. Is that kind of it?

    The planes are not watertight compartments, so we say manas goes to kama manas or buddhi manas; senses can be used in each of the sheaths; and a higher plane will influence a lower, unless it is going to rest such as Devachan. I believe, eventually, one who had died from another method would still eventually go through the moment of death and into the bardo. I would tend to agree one who is in the astral when the body dies, could manifest a choice to stay on the earth side. I would guess that a near death experience is when any of this process starts, and the egg stretches out somewhat, but none of the skins break and the person oozes back to physical life.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)


    1. Anna Maya Kosha: The body made of physical matter

    2. Prana Maya Kosha: The body made of vital energy

    3. Mano Maya Kosha: The body of thought energy

    4. Vijnana Maya Kosha: The body of higher intelligence

    5. Ananda Maya Kosha: The body of mystical awareness


    .

    DNA, were did you get this info from if I may ask?

    It does not seem correct to me.

    If I translate into language that I have been thought about this subject, then I come to:


    1. Anna Maya Kosha: The body made of physical matter physcial body of lowest three physical matter (solid, liquid and gas)

    2. Prana Maya Kosha: The body made of vital energy physical etherical body, composed of the 4 highest physical states of matter (yes, energy body)

    3. Mano Maya Kosha: The body of thought energy No, this is wrong. not the thought body, but the astral/emotional body. Very important to get this right.

    4. Vijnana Maya Kosha: The body of higher intelligence This should be the thought body, or mental body that you placed at 3

    5. Ananda Maya Kosha: The body of mystical awareness mystical awareness body makes no sense. Mystical awareness is an emotional state of being and should not be placed as a body, finer or higher then the mental body. I've been thought that the body above the mental body is the causal body. "intuitive body" might fit here, but not mystical

    Laurency has made the effort to put all language that addresses the explanations of reality into western words and concepts. Combined with a numerological context as for all the different worlds and layers of matter that are part of it.

    physical world : physical body and etherical body
    emotional world: emotional body
    mental world: mental body and causal/intuitive body.
    These are the five bodies that make up the matter aspect of a human incarnation.

    So, every world has 7 layers of matter.

    Physical world (world 49) is the most dense of all, beginning with:
    (1 atomic) (don't confuse with atoms in chemistry that we are familiar with)
    2 subatomic
    3 superetheric
    4 etheric
    5 gaseous
    6 liquid
    7 solid

    Then we get the emotional/astral world (world 48) with also 7 layers of ever finer matter.

    Then we get the mental world (world 47) with again 7 layers of ever finer matter of which it is composed.

    Quote After the cosmos has been built out with its 49 atomic kinds, solar systems can be formed
    by means of a further involvation of the seven lowest atomic kinds (4349) to form molecular
    matter. Each solar system accomplishes this process of involvation by itself.

    Each one of the seven lowest atomic kinds (4349) furnishes the material for six
    increasingly involved molecular kinds, in which process  like the composition of atomic
    matter  the next lower kind is composed out of the next higher kind, so that each lower kind
    has an increasingly condensed content of primordial atoms. Molecular matter is composed in
    such a manner that the atomic kinds with their molecular kinds form a continuous series of
    states of aggregation. Thus a total of 42 molecular kinds is obtained, and these make up the
    solar system

    The seven atomic kinds 4349 are the basis of the division of the worlds of the solar
    system. For reasons of convenience these seven worlds have been given names beside the
    mathematical notations:
    43 the manifestal world
    44 the submanifestal world
    45 the superessential world
    46 the essential world, the world of unity, wisdom, and love
    47 the causal-mental world
    48 the emotional world
    49 the physical world

    The six molecular kinds involved from each atomic kind have been given analogous
    names and mathematical notations:
    (1 atomic)
    2 subatomic
    3 superetheric
    4 etheric
    5 gaseous
    6 liquid
    7 solid

    The figure for each molecular kind (state of aggregation) is put after that denoting the
    atomic kind. Thus the physical gaseous molecular kind is written 49:5.
    The three higher solar systemic worlds (4345) are common to all the planets. The four
    lower worlds (4649) are called planetary worlds.
    When involution has reached its goal, the emotional world (48), the involutionary atoms
    pass to the mineral kingdom of the physical world (49), and evolution begins. There is no
    involutionary matter in the physical molecular world. But of course there are involutionary
    beings in the emotional world, which penetrates the physical world. Likewise, however many
    beings from as many different worlds can gather in the same “space”.
    http://laurency.com/DVSe/ps2.pdf
    Last edited by Eram; 21st January 2017 at 07:05.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    There's an easy exercise to determine the validity of what I wrote in the above post.

    If you concentrate and turn inward, you can trace the following:
    Thoughts create emotions.
    emotions furnish the physical etherical body
    the physical etherical body turns the physical body into action.

    You can see how one body creates energy for the next "lower" body.

    So therefore:
    1 physical body
    2 etherical body
    3 emotional body
    4 mental body
    5 causal/intuitive body

    When the 2 physical bodies die, the emotional, mental and causal bodies live on in what we refer to as the after life.
    First with a focus on the emotional worlds where we can experience everything from heaven to hell, then, when that emotional body is dissolved we may live some time in the world of ideas (mental world) and when that body too is dissolved, we turn into something like a winter sleep in the causal body, waiting for our next incarnation to begin.
    "According to Laurency"
    Last edited by Eram; 21st January 2017 at 07:18.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    DNA,

    About Shadow people and spooks and what have you all in the astral world:

    Charles Webster Leadbeater wrote several books and articles about that world in which he also addresses different kind of entity manifestations.
    this book here might clarify a lot. (especially starting from page 148)
    And this one.


    I know shaberon thinks that Leadbeater was an agent of the dark lodge and scrambled the work of H.P. Blavatsky up in order to confuse, but to my knowledge, this is not true.
    I've never seen anything that proves to me that this is the case.
    Last edited by Eram; 21st January 2017 at 09:09.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Here's the thing.

    The Ledbeater scheme of planes is totally different.

    The SD-based teaching does not include a "physical etheric body". HPB stated the fourth state of matter is material. Crookes "discovered" it and it is now called plasma, which comprises 99% of the observable universe. It does not include an "emotional body". Because the Leadbeater planes change the lower man, they wind up with room to posit two planes, divine and monadic, above atma. And so they no longer match the Hindu originals.

    Without getting into whatever Ledbeater's intentions may have been, he was a failure as a chela.

    Ananda is bliss, which is Buddhi, Dzyan, Chan, Zen. So this system closely matches ancient knowledge. Changes to it are not from the same source. One can form one's own conclusion from being aware of the differences, but they are different systems for some reason.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    DNA, were did you get this info from if I may ask?
    The Taittiriya Upanishad which is an ancient Hindu text.




    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Would a sorceror living or dead send shells against living people, yes. As to whether there is a parasite upon parasite system amongst the dead, I don't know. Lovecraft's "Corpse-eating cult of Leng" is based on a real tribe whose name I can't remember.
    You sound quite versed in the language. I read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" fifteen years ago, but that was a long time ago. For me many of the times you use the technical oriental jargon the message is kind of lost on me.
    And if it's lost on me, someone who has attempted to verse himself somewhat, it's probably going to be lost on most other folks as well. My advice would be to simplify your message, and if you are going to use such technical terms then you need to explain the technical term in really every post you use it in.
    As noted earlier I'm a huge Lovecraft fan, and I've often felt that there is a lot of truth told in his works.
    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    A. P. Sinnett was the editor of a newspaper in Simla, the last British town before the Trans-Himalaya. Koothoomi made up a thing for him called a "lay chela", someone who wasn't really taking any pledges, but earnestly trying to learn his teachings. So The Mahatma Letters are to him, and it's a pretty hefty bundle of stuff. Losing favor at his editor's job, money was attempted to be raised to start a new journal called The Phoenix, it didn't work out and he wound up going back to England. Laura Holloway was a born psychic from Tennesse. These people show how difficult chelaship is mentally and psychically.
    I see
    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Dweller on the Threshhold is actually a term from the literature of Bulwer-Lytton in Zanoni. In this case it means that the Spook from one's previous incarnation has the strongest attraction towards one's new birth--as opposed to the fact that it should have disintegrated by then. So yes, if one has the Dweller as incubus succubus, that would be a siphoning ghost. I imagine they are driven by sex and all kinds of human behavior.
    I've met and interacted with hundreds of ghosts and I do not think it has anything to do with a Dweller on the Threshhold.
    I understand the point of this thread is to extoll and expand upon certain obscure literature, and I'm all about this and spent years of my youth doing just this, but as for myself, there was a time to leave theoretical literature behind and a time to start actively engaging this phenomenon and learn through first hand experience.

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    I think I see what you mean. Different operations in consciousness when dying. Crossover being more like the bardo transitions, and leaving the body being an astral projection that doesn't come back. Is that kind of it?
    I don't really remember the bardo transitions exactly without looking them up. From memory I believe you are talking about the different lights that are made available to the recently deceased and how the recently deceased must ignore them until a certain more perfected light is made available. The logic being that the lesser light sources shown first are made to attract souls weighed down with desire, and those souls who have not rid themselves of desire are syphoned into the lower heaven dimensions, and in order to avoid this you have to show how you have rid yourself of desire and resist the early lights made available.
    Not to front on the Tibetan book of the dead, but personally I don't buy this.
    Personally I'm of the opinion you need to go through the tunnel of light that is offered upon death, and you should go ahead and heed the advice of your departed loved ones who are there to help you cross over.
    To stay on earth means you will be besieged and possibly tricked by negative entities living in the astral plane, and that you must begin your existence as a hungry ghost.
    The hunger starts immediately, and I've seen a ghost show up from a departed human and the death was only a few days before.
    I'm more inclined to believe the books by Michael Newton in so how it describes life after death than I would subscribe to any ancient doctrines. For me this video only ten mintues long really paints the clearest picture.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k



    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    DNA,

    About Shadow people and spooks and what have you all in the astral world:

    Charles Webster Leadbeater wrote several books and articles about that world in which he also addresses different kind of entity manifestations.
    this book here might clarify a lot. (especially starting from page 148)
    And this one.


    I know shaberon thinks that Leadbeater was an agent of the dark lodge and scrambled the work of H.P. Blavatsky up in order to confuse, but to my knowledge, this is not true.
    I've never seen anything that proves to me that this is the case.
    Thank you this looks very interesting.
    Last edited by DNA; 22nd January 2017 at 14:28.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Here's the thing.

    The Ledbeater scheme of planes is totally different.

    The SD-based teaching does not include a "physical etheric body".
    .

    Blavatsky taught there was a physical etheric body...it's right here, what she calls the Plastic or Protean body...

    http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-ast.htm

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    I've met and interacted with hundreds of ghosts and I do not think it has anything to do with a Dweller on the Threshhold.
    I understand the point of this thread is to extoll and expand upon certain obscure literature, and I'm all about this and spent years of my youth doing just this, but as for myself, there was a time to leave theoretical literature behind and a time to start actively engaging this phenomenon and learn through first hand experience.
    I can't say I have much experience with death, personally, or ghosts. I believe I have dealt with a couple in the astral world. It's not something I've really sought out. I don't expect it's likely for me to gain many experiences of that nature, compared to anyone else. I get meaning from it because I believe dying is a skill we can hone like lucid dreaming.

    Bardo refers to transitional states of consciousness, in ordinary life: waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep. Then there is the moment of death, the colored lights, and the rest before rebirth. So in the video Pam was standing there in her linga sharira then turned and entered the moment of death. She did not pass it, the skins of her egg did not burst, and so she came back together as a physical person. If someone fought off the moment of death, yes that probably would get you some bad consequences. I believe there could also be circumstances that prolong the moment, such as shock from a bomb literally blowing you out of the body. So the moment of death bardo has to do with that escape of consciousness, but nothing to do with flat lines on hospital machines.

    The shells are the remains of a kama-manas that has properly passed on, while the one who remains in linga sharira refusing the post mortem process is an Elementary. I suppose some of the Black Lodge practices could well be about purposefully becoming an Elementary. Both an Elementary and a shell are capable of harassing the living. If I understand correctly what you mean by stay on earth, I would think this means an Elementary.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by jtcribbs (here)

    Blavatsky taught there was a physical etheric body...it's right here, what she calls the Plastic or Protean body...
    Yes...Protean or Plastic is the astral linga sharira on its own plane. It is not the "four highest sub planes of the physical plane". Also, the term etheric is not used, it is nowhere on that page, although as a description, the astral plane is more ethereal than the physical plane, would be correct. This lower or earth side of the astral plane is the basis or substratum of the physical plane, including all its forces such as electricity.

    So it is more ethereal and it affects the physical world, but it is not a physical etheric body.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Here's the thing.

    The Ledbeater scheme of planes is totally different.

    The SD-based teaching does not include a "physical etheric body". HPB stated the fourth state of matter is material. Crookes "discovered" it and it is now called plasma, which comprises 99% of the observable universe. It does not include an "emotional body". Because the Leadbeater planes change the lower man, they wind up with room to posit two planes, divine and monadic, above atma. And so they no longer match the Hindu originals.

    Without getting into whatever Ledbeater's intentions may have been, he was a failure as a chela.

    Ananda is bliss, which is Buddhi, Dzyan, Chan, Zen. So this system closely matches ancient knowledge. Changes to it are not from the same source. One can form one's own conclusion from being aware of the differences, but they are different systems for some reason.
    As far as I know, the system do not contradict each other in any way.
    The problems and confusions arise on the words chosen to describe certain phenomena.
    Especially since we are talking about parts of reality that we can hardly detect with our physical senses and we have to use words that we normally use to describe phenomena that we are used to in everyday life.

    A good indication that Blavatsky indeed points to a body that Laurency presents as the emotional body is the following quotation in the link that tjcribbs offered:

    Quote The second is the "Thought" body, or Dream body, rather; known among Occultists as the Mayavi-rupa, or "Illusion-body." During life this image is the vehicle both of thought and of the animal passions and desires, drawing at one and the same time from the lowest terrestrial manas (mind) and Kama, the element of desire. It is dual in its potentiality, and after death forms what is called in the East Bhut, or Kama-rupa, but which is better known to Theosophists as the "Spook."
    Anyone who has studied his dreams and has perhaps even had some experience in OBE can testify to the fact that this is a realm where emotions rule and not so much thoughts. Emotions have free range as it where and are dominant in that realm.
    Yes you can make use of your still existing mental faculties there, but everyone can see that they do not dominate there, so the phrase: "thought body" was perhaps not the best way to describe that body.
    Emotional body is the best way to describe it, since it is the body that is made up of matter that makes up the dream world and where emotions rule... hence... emotional body.

    She named this so called 2th body the "thought" or "dream" body, so what we can derive from that is that she actually combined two bodies in one here. "Dream" is obviously pointing to the dream world where emotions rule and "thought" is pointing to something that stil exists when we split from the physical bodie(s), so perhaps it is more accurate to claim a body of it's own for it. This also becomes more clear when all the worlds and de different layers of matter are presented in the hylozoic fashion with numbers attributed to every layer of matter and every layer of realm/world.

    Please keep in mind Shaberon, that Blavatsky was not academically trained.
    Further I have some clues that she perhaps even suffered from a condition that we today label as ADHD/ADD/PTSD etc., which hinders the brain to categorize and file information in a specific orderly fashion. (I can attest to that )
    Still she pulled it off and even did so with very little to built from other esoteric writers. She was the first. A true pioneer and still managed to write several books with knowledge of reality. A monumental task.
    Yet any one can see that she was not the must lucid of writers and this may explain vagueness that arose here and there, like with her descriptions of the invisible human bodies.

    So you see?
    the "Protean" or "Plastic" body equals what Laurency names the etherical body.
    the "thought"or "dream" body equals what Laurency names the emotional body and mental body combined.
    the "Causal" body that Blavatsky names further on is the same as what Laurency named the "causal" body.

    Please notice that Blavatsky attributes no number for the physical body and only starts counting from the preotean/plastic body. This accounts for the difference in numbers with Blavatsky versus Laurency.
    That combined with Laurencies extra allotment of a 4th (mental) body, where Blavatsky names only one, but still points to it's combined existence shows that Blavatsky, Leadbeater and Laurency in essence do not contradict each other.
    It's not a different system... just worded and presented in a different fashion.
    Blavatsky being the least lucid one, then Leadbeater and Laurency being the most super lucid in his presentation.
    Last edited by Eram; 22nd January 2017 at 10:43.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    To understand and experience that thoughts and emotions deserve a split in its presentation can also be seen when you focus on where you "feel" your emotions the most and where you "feel" your thoughts the most.

    Emotions are linked to the lower part of the torso right? Animal desires and emotions of a lower order like fear and anger linked to the lowest part in the gut, then emotions of ever finer quality like surprise and joy linked to higher parts of the gut. Unconditional love even higher.. up to the heart aerea.

    Thought are obviously not linked to that part of the physical body right? The are linked to the brain aerea.

    So, this is also a clear indication that emotions and thought are not the same and are separated into two different bodies.

    Of course, since every higher body penetrates and envelops all lower bodies, once in the dream or after life, you experience both emotions and thoughts, but this is no proof that both are one body.
    Rather, there is proof that they exist as two separate bodies.
    Last edited by Eram; 22nd January 2017 at 09:12.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by Eram (here)

    Please notice that Blavatsky attributes no number for the physical body and only starts counting from the preotean/plastic body. This accounts for the difference in numbers with Blavatsky versus Laurency.
    That combined with Laurencies extra allotment of a 4th (mental) body, where Blavatsky names only one, but still points to it's combined existence shows that Blavatsky, Leadbeater and Laurency in essence do not contradict each other.
    It's not a different system... just worded and presented in a different fashion.
    Blavatsky being the least lucid one, then Leadbeater and Laurency being the most super lucid in his presentation.
    It is not an equal, it is not the same thing. I don't see how this is the same description of physical sub-planes:

    Original:...................................Neo:
    Solid.......................................Solid
    Liquid.....................................Liquid
    Gas..........................................Gas
    Material--Plasma........................Etheric
    Semi-material.......................Super-etheric
    Unnamed...............................Sub-Atomic
    Unnamed..................................Atomic



    The neo teachings posit a removable body made of matter of those "higher four" sub-planes. The original denies this. It does not say man has a "plasma body", it states that plasma is the fourth state of matter. So far that's 99% of the observable universe versus "the etheric body". They also outright forbid naming or knowledge of the two highest states.

    This is also not the same doctrine for total planes of existence:

    Original:......................................... .Neo:
    Physical........................................Ph ysical & Etheric
    Astral Double................................Emotional
    Prana............................................. Mental
    Kama loka...................................Higher Mental
    Manas............................................B uddhic
    Buddhi...........................................M onadic
    Atma.............................................. Divine

    The original system works with the Upanishads, which are the ends of the Vedas. The neo system is apparently what Leadbeater decided to declare. It's not a slightly different wording, it's an alteration. There is no emotional body in the original. Emotions are part of kama manas along with the majority of human psychology, so there is no separate lower mind or lower mental body. The original system also does not say these are all "bodies": man has a physical body with potentially three doubles. The mayavi rupa of a living, or kama rupa of a dead person, are parallel to the higher mental plane of the neo-teaching.

    By changing the planes around, they obscure the role of the monad, atma buddhi manas, and install new features such as permanent atoms, and start to assert that atma is subordinate to or dependent on something.

    The spiritual teaching is different, they began to invoke a lot of "logoic consciousness", "love-wisdom", and other foreign elements. It changes the doctrine into an atmosphere more favorable to those with a Maitreya or Messiah complex, and tried to insert Jiddu Krishnamurti in to that role, who refused, and later would only say that Leadbeater was a very evil man. There is no messiah coming, restoration of the mysteries, or anything like that, in the original system. Leadbeater was a priest who was not particularly educated, who had his clairvoyance enhanced by the semen of young boys.

    One is free to choose to follow that, but it is not from the same source and it is not the same thing.

    It discusses the same subjects, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends. The essence of the ancient knowledge is: our system does not hold two views on the same subject. To change the word for astral body to plastic or protean would not make a difference, but to call it an emotional body is to change its nature.

    HPB knew every system under the sun and in most cases at least met practitioners if was not partially trained by them in at least four continents. Leadbeater just kind of popped out of church and said "hey let's do it my way now". Can it be explained why?
    Last edited by shaberon; 29th September 2018 at 01:25.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    Please keep in mind Shaberon, that Blavatsky was not academically trained.
    This is true, this is where Eliphas Levi came in, this dude was the brains of her operation really.
    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    Further I have some clues that she perhaps even suffered from a condition that we today label as ADHD/ADD/PTSD etc., which hinders the brain to categorize and file information in a specific orderly fashion.
    I don't think it was ADHD/ADD/PTSD, I think she was high on cocaine when she was writing her books.
    Her writing style comes off kind of manic and stream of consciousness. I've always actually really liked her writing style, but it reminds me of other writers of her time period who were admittedly high on cocaine. It was the in thing to do at the time. We are talking about a time when you could buy a Coca-Cola and it had real cocaine in it. People carried around snuff boxes with cocaine in them. Freud was high as hell on cocaine when he wrote his books. So yes, I think HP Blavatsky was high as a MF when she wrote her books. Makes them no less valid in my opinion.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)

    It is not an equal, it is not the same thing. I don't see how this is the same description of physical sub-planes:

    Original: Neo:
    Solid Solid
    Liquid Liquid
    Gas Gas
    Material--Plasma Etheric
    Semi-material Super-etheric
    Unnamed Sub-Atomic
    Unnamed Atomic
    Do you mean to say that the fact that different names have been used to name sub planes is cause to conclude that they are talking of different things?

    Does it matter how we name the moon? If we were to name it "Amlan", would that change anything about the existence of it and or it's nature?

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    It discusses the same subjects, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends. The essence of the ancient knowledge is: our system does not hold two views on the same subject. To change the word for astral body to plastic or protean would not make a difference, but to call it an emotional body is to change its nature.
    You really should not get hung up too much on words, since they easily cause confusion.
    Yes, Blavatsky uses the word astral to point to the "Protean" or "Plastic"body and Leadbeater uses that word to point to the "dream" plane and or body. But is that of any real significance if the descriptions of those planes, sub planes and or bodies are correct?
    Esoteric writers mix up words all the time and this was one of the reasons why (according to Laurency) Pythagoras created the hylozoic system that explains most of these planes and sub planes in numerological fashion. No more confusions about words there.
    Words, just as symbols are just vessels to point to concepts and contexts. They can have any meaning you wish to attribute to them.


    I guess we could go on like this for a long time, but I don't see the point.
    I made some posts that should make you aware of some other interpretations than the ones that you have clung to so far.

    Laurency made a wise remark when he wrote:
    Esoterics cannot be debated.
    It can only be studied and understood, misunderstood, or rejected.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    Please keep in mind Shaberon, that Blavatsky was not academically trained.
    This is true, this is where Eliphas Levi came in, this dude was the brains of her operation really.
    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    Further I have some clues that she perhaps even suffered from a condition that we today label as ADHD/ADD/PTSD etc., which hinders the brain to categorize and file information in a specific orderly fashion.
    I don't think it was ADHD/ADD/PTSD, I think she was high on cocaine when she was writing her books.
    Her writing style comes off kind of manic and stream of consciousness. I've always actually really liked her writing style, but it reminds me of other writers of her time period who were admittedly high on cocaine. It was the in thing to do at the time. We are talking about a time when you could buy a Coca-Cola and it had real cocaine in it. People carried around snuff boxes with cocaine in them. Freud was high as hell on cocaine when he wrote his books. So yes, I think HP Blavatsky was high as a MF when she wrote her books. Makes them no less valid in my opinion.
    PTSD and Blavatsky, maybe, she had quite a rough time in Russia, and women wanting to emancipate in any ways at that time would have been given a very tough ride.
    As for ADHD\ADD, isn't it the case that most people very developed spiritually will have some "spacing" moments, when in contact with their inner self, listening to whatever they are listening to? Profound meditation does not anchors you in daily materialism and realities. This is also the case for very bright people, they are in their thoughts and do look like having ADD at times.

    As for cocaine, I would be surprised to learn that she used it on a regular basis.

    I have been silently following this thread, and I truly enjoy + I learn from it. Although the wording used by Shaberon lose me at times. Thanks Eram for the equivalences you give.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    Quote Posted by Eram (here)
    Please keep in mind Shaberon, that Blavatsky was not academically trained.
    This is true, this is where Eliphas Levi came in, this dude was the brains of her operation really.
    Yes, if one were to take an intro to magic, one could do worse than Levi. Theosophy is essentially oriented towards the original oriental kabbalah instead of Levi's Christian one.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by Eram (here)

    You really should not get hung up too much on words, since they easily cause confusion.
    Yes, Blavatsky uses the word astral to point to the "Protean" or "Plastic"body and Leadbeater uses that word to point to the "dream" plane and or body. But is that of any real significance if the descriptions of those planes, sub planes and or bodies are correct?
    In Ledbeater's case, I'm going to have to say so. Regardless of the simple instance of how does plasma compare to "the etheric body", it becomes an issue of misrepresentation. Claiming to represent the same teacher who was only ever known to explain things differently in many cases. His manufacturing a messiah cult out of it.

    I would rather leave him to Alice Cleather who has a hundred pages to say about it. However, the Leadbeater material was used to say the Upanishads were wrong. The Upanishads are the esoteric philosophy in the Vedas. I had agreed with those words that were said to be wrong, so I don't know where the confusion is coming from. I mostly look for a golden thread through cultures widely separated in time and space, and less towards someone who would sneak in your footsteps and change your books. I'm obliged to point out the "ninja patches" if I see them.

    Pythagorean numerology I would agree is on the thread.

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    Default Re: The Serpent, the Black Sun, HPB & St. Germain

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    PTSD and Blavatsky, maybe, she had quite a rough time in Russia, and women wanting to emancipate in any ways at that time would have been given a very tough ride.
    As for ADHD\ADD, isn't it the case that most people very developed spiritually will have some "spacing" moments, when in contact with their inner self, listening to whatever they are listening to? Profound meditation does not anchors you in daily materialism and realities. This is also the case for very bright people, they are in their thoughts and do look like having ADD at times.

    As for cocaine, I would be surprised to learn that she used it on a regular basis.

    I have been silently following this thread, and I truly enjoy + I learn from it. Although the wording used by Shaberon lose me at times. Thanks Eram for the equivalences you give.
    Yes the women's status in those days was pretty bottled up. To give credit due, although Annie Besant probably just "stood under" the men Chakravarti and Leadbeater, she was a powerful public speaker and able to achieve on a political level things that were unusual for a woman.

    The original draft of The Secret Doctrine was about 10% of what it became. That core is the Brotherhood's teaching. The other 90% is supporting documentation pulled from other writers, some of which was explanatory but, especially for a female writer, it was deemed necessary to have any chance of keeping the attention of skeptical males. If it was just the poem with interpretation, they would have just tossed it out, so by including a bunch of arguments from books by other men, it was thought to make it harder to dismiss.

    A lot of the difficulty was in establishing an English translation of words that have no equivalent in English. It was worked out at the time and there was no confusion. No need to change it or add anything that isn't there.

    I would believe it is somewhat clear, because, due to his sensitivities and having experiences I've never had, DNA seems to be able to distinguish an Elementary from a Spook. To me it's an abstract lesson, but it's something he's actually done, as far as I can tell from the description.

    Most people of a mystic nature might not appear typically sane. To talk about spacing out. One time a trance competition took place between a yogi and a chela. The yogi made a few preparations and went into suspended animation. The chela simply snapped into the state. A month went by. When they were awoken, the yogi showed the change in time with nails and hair grown and other cellular activity. The chela's body was unchanged.

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