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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    THANKS OZMIRAGE, THE WHOLE IDEA IS UNVIABLE, BECAUSE OF THE FACTS YOU EXPLAIN BEFORE. wHAT WOULD BE EFFECTIVE IS ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX, THE PROPERTY TAX, ELIMINATE THE MANDATORY INSURANCE ( WHERE IS OUR RIGHT TO SAY NO?) AND THE MEDICAL TAXES.
    LET THE PEOPLE DEAL WITH THEIR MONEY AND LIFE AS THEY WISH, AND JUST PAY A MINIMUM MUNICIPAL TAX TO PAY ROADS,FIREFIGHTERS AND EDUCATION. GOVERNMENT? DEAL WITH A MINIMUM WAGE AS EVERYONE ELSE AND VOLUNTARY WORK, ANYWAY THEY DO CLAIM TO BE THERE TO HELP THE PEOPLE......

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    I think only about 1 trillion gets collected in the US per year in taxes now, and as we know, the US military gets about 2/3rds of that money.
    Federal Taxes Set Record in FY 2015 with $3,248,723,000,000 collected.

    Hasn't been in the 1tril range since the '80s

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    The same greed and power-driven people who currently own/control the USA will never look out for the interests of the other 99.9% of the population that they financially rose above. It is ridiculously ignorant to believe that this 'Mob' would remain "in charge", and that they would somehow implement a basic income and/or other strategies to help others. (Insert Ray Kroc hose/drowning quote here.)
    Actually, from my experience the BEST way to ruin a people and dominate an area is very simple: give them free money (aka basic income)

    Look at what it did to the native american populations in the lower 48.. they are a great long term example, for a shorter term example look at what is happening to the native population of Alaska.. both were given free money and free land & both turned to substance abuse & physical/sexual abuse at high rates.


    I think "basic income" would be a very attractive population control methodology based on what I have experienced from peoples receiving "free money".


    Native Americans have never recieved anything remotely resembling a basic income. What exactly are you talking about?

    Besides, they were ruined long before anyone gave them "free money". I think most people would agree that it probably had more to do with the cultural genocide that took place in early 20th century. I know the natives would anyway....both of them.


    Your statement that humans worst suffering occurs when they have no resistance to push against reads a little sanctimonious and naive, no offense. In my experience, humans' worst suffering occurs when they have no food. There's a time and a place for challenging people to be their best, and a time and a place for immediate assistance...know what I mean?

    Have you ever been poor and desperately hungry? (Not a rhetorical question)
    Last edited by Mike; 13th July 2016 at 07:16.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Jack Monroe went through hell with unemployment, being a single mother, and experiencing benefit sanctions. It turned out well for her , however, as she invented a way of cooking well , but extraordinarily cheaply. She has a cook book out and is a TV personality.

    Quote A Girl Called Jack: "By cutting welfare lifelines, the state is the abusive parent"
    Here's ace blogger Jack (A Girl Called Jack) Monroe's speech she delivered to the Green Party Conference this afternoon as part of a panel chaired by Leader Natalie Bennett:
    An article in the Guardian recently claimed that ‘austerity has been hijacked by the moralisers’ – and judging by George Osborne’s latest announcement that ‘austerity works’, it seems they were right. As though it’s all just ‘cosy frugality’, as though we are all just living in a snapshot of a nostalgic poster of post-War Britain. I’m surprised the posters haven’t made a reappearance, unaltered, to back up the chancellors claims.
    Eat less bread. Food is a weapon. Your own vegetables all year round. Dig for victory. Home grown food. Make do and mend. Keep calm and carry on.
    But there’s nothing cosy and nostalgic about missing days of meals, turning the heating off for two consecutive winters and every bloody day and night in between.
    There’s nothing cosy and nostalgic about unscrewing the light bulbs so you can’t accidentally turn them on, or selling your son’s shoes, or drinking the formula milk that the food bank gave you because there’s nothing else. If that’s cosy frugality, the moralisers and apologisers ought to try it. For a month. Or six. Or eighteen.
    Turn off the fridge, because it’s empty anyway. Sell anything you can see lying around that you might get more than a quid for. Walk everywhere in the pouring rain, in your only pair of shoes, with a soaking wet and sobbing toddler old trailing behind you. Drag that toddler into every pub and shop in unreasonable walking distance and ask them if they have any job vacancies. Try not to go red as the girl behind the counter appraises your tatty jumper and dirty jeans before telling you that they have no jobs available. “For you”, you add in your head, and you drag that toddler home, still soaking, still unemployed, to not-quite dry out in your freezing cold flat.
    Put two jumpers on that you’ll wear all week, to keep washing to a minimum. You sit at home in your coat anyway, and nobody’s there to notice.
    Drag yourself to the cooker to pour some tinned tomatoes over some cold pasta, and try not to hurl it across the room in frustration when your toddler tells you he doesn’t want it. I want something else, Mummy. But there isn’t anything else. But aren’t we supposed to just keep calm and carry on?
    You get up the next morning and give your child one of the last weetabix, mashed with a little water, with a glass of tap water to wash it down with.
    Where’s mummys breakfast? He asks, all big blue eyes and innocent concern. You tell him you aren’t hungry, but you weren’t hungry last night either, and sooner or later he’ll notice that mummy never seems hungry any more.
    Hunger hurts. Hunger distresses, and depresses. Admitting that you cannot afford to feed your child is both terrifying and humiliating. Professionals that signpost people to food banks for help often report that they are reluctant to go, because it feels like begging. And my god, it feels like begging.
    And you think if you admit to skipping meals, to feeding your child the same cold pasta for nights on end, you think if anyone notices the badly damaged wrists from your recent suicide attempt, that you might lose your son. He might be taken into care. And despite the cold and the despair and the mind raging with doubt and fear and uselessness, there’s a little boy that relies on you to provide his meals – no matter how rubbish they are – and to put his jumper on before he goes to bed at night. So you say you’re fine. But you’re not. You’re full of rain and heartache and anger and it’s starting to seep through the cracks in the kept up appearances. But don’t you just keep calm, and carry on?
    My circumstances were not unique to me. The Oxfam report – Walking The Breadline, published in June this year, states that half a million people in the UK rely on food banks. Yet the Government puts their fingers in their ears, blaming feckless parenting and scroungers. Half a million feckless parents. Half a million scroungers. They claim that there is no link between cuts to welfare and the growing demand for food banks.
    Lord Freud claims that people ‘turn up for free food’ – painting a picture of people waltzing in and topping up the Ocado delivery with a few battered fruits and some dented tins of tomatoes. Such comments display a complete disconnect from reality. You can’t just ‘turn up’ to a food bank. You need to be referred – by a childcare professional, a health visitor, social services or similar agency. Someone needs to recognise that your household is at serious risk of going hungry if they don’t intervene. And intervention is a feared word. So people become adept at pretending they don’t need help.
    Michael Gove blames child poverty and hunger on reckless parenting – with no acknowledgement to the fact that many people using food banks are doing so because of benefit delays, sanctions, low income, and unemployment. No acknowledgement that many people who use food banks are IN WORK. What sort of a society do we live in where people who go out to work to support their families, need emergency food handouts?
    Many parents tell of going to bed hungry themselves in order to feed their children. Gove would call that reckless parenting. And they repeat, they bleat, that food bank use has nothing to do with welfare cuts.
    So here’s a figure.:
    Since April 2013, and the introduction of the Bedroom Tax, food bank use in the UK has increased 175%.
    The number one reason cited for food bank referral is cuts or delays to benefits, including sanctions and Bedroom Tax.
    And while food banks are meeting a real and desperate need for half a million families in the UK, surely the responsibility for feeding the poorest and most vulnerable lies with the Government, not with charity? Isn’t that the entire point of the welfare state?
    So in terms of feckless parenting, it is the state that is sending its children to school, to bed and to work hungry.
    By cutting welfare lifelines, the state is the abusive parent.
    By casting around to blame anyone else, by ignoring the cold hard face of true poverty in the UK, it is the state that is feckless.
    By refusing to tackle poverty at its root, it is the Government that is being neglectful.
    But until they change housing benefit to monthly payments in line with people’s rent and mortgage payments, until they commit to a living wage legislation that is not age discriminatory, until they reinstate the crisis loan, revoke the bedroom tax – we need to carry on talking about it. Get angry. Get noisy. Use the collective voice of 6 million union members to lobby and campaign and not stop until children are not going to bed hungry any more.
    As Desmond Tutu said – there comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    OK so the USA spends $1.2 trillion per annum on 'social security, unemployment & labor'. Assuming 250 million qualify for basic income they get $4,800 per annum or $92 per week.

    It would be very interesting to study how much of the current $1.2T goes on administration, and the infrastructure to disburse. A lot more than just processing a weekly payment methinks.

    If the average person suffered a tax hit of LESS than $92 per week, they would still be better off, and the Federal budget could end up GAINING from this , even after allowing for some higher levels for vets & pensioners.

    Its not an argument about giving people more, its a proposal for efficiency.

    It is also a statement by we the people- however inept and lazy someone is, we are not prepared to see their condition sink below a certain level! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??

    Then it could be argued that the increase in personal economic security would lead to a reduction in crime...
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 13th July 2016 at 12:55.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)

    Have you ever been poor
    Yep, grew up that way

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    and desperately hungry? (Not a rhetorical question)
    In the US? nope.. I've been to countries where power isn't even a consideration and real hunger is.. but we aren't talking about hunger are we.. in the US death from malnutrition is not anywhere near common.

    I thought we were talking about basic income, not food; if it's just food that's an easy fix that we already have a fairly good handle on.

    I'm talking about a welfare system, which we already have & does little good for it's recipients.


    Besides, "basic income" and capitalism cannot co-exist. WHO does the income come from? WHO gets robbed at the point of a gun? That is all basic income comes down to in the end; taking from someone else to give to another person who did not earn it.

    all social programs come from the barrel of a gun; I cannot support that.

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Its not an argument about giving people more, its a proposal for efficiency.
    Government =/= efficiency.... never has never will.

    what you are asking is not only impossible (and proven through centuries of history) but really makes no sense if you look at current examples of governments handling..... ANYTHING.

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    It is also a statement by we the people- however inept and lazy someone is, we are not prepared to see their condition sink below a certain level! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??

    Then it could be argued that the increase in personal economic security would lead to a reduction in crime...
    Great, but who are you going to steal from to accomplish your lofty goals? or does that part not matter?
    Last edited by TargeT; 13th July 2016 at 12:49.
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    OK so the USA spends $1.2 trillion per annum on 'social security, unemployment & labor'. Assuming 250 million qualify for basic income they get $4,800 per annum or $92 per week.

    It would be very interesting to study how much of the current $1.2T goes on administration, and the infrastructure to disburse. A lot more than just processing a weekly payment methinks.

    If the average person suffered a tax hit of LESS than £92 per week, then the Federal budget could end up GAINING from this , even after allowing for some higher levels for vets & pensioners.

    Its not an argument about giving people more, its a proposal for efficiency.

    It is also a statement by we the people- however inept and lazy someone is, we are not prepared to see their condition sink below a certain level! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??

    Then it could be argued that the increase in personal economic security would lead to a reduction in crime...
    A think $400+ a month would cripple most American's, that would be $800 for a family with two working adults

    Jesus would not use the threat of violence to steal from all, have it funneled and robbed and then given to other's. Jesus would rather you hide the money from the taxman and give it to the poor yourself. Ideally, he would want you to give up all your earthly possessions and commit your life to helping.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    I share the anarcho-libertarian distaste for the arrogant state confiscating our assets as if it were theirs.

    We do not need more of that

    Just an acknowledgement that we are there now- its a socialist capitalist hybrid in the USA , not so far removed from the European model. It is redistributive. It advocates a safety net because a well run safety net provides for better social conditions for all.

    For me also, children are important. They are born into a dysfunctional family, through no fault of their own. The social programmes attempt to help these disadvantaged children to do better, to make better choices than their parents.

    That long term investment of resources should hopefully yield returns in terms of less mental illness, crime, and unemployment.

    So at its best, basic income can assist the socialist paradise known as modern America to function better.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by risveglio (here)
    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    OK so the USA spends $1.2 trillion per annum on 'social security, unemployment & labor'. Assuming 250 million qualify for basic income they get $4,800 per annum or $92 per week.

    It would be very interesting to study how much of the current $1.2T goes on administration, and the infrastructure to disburse. A lot more than just processing a weekly payment methinks.

    If the average person suffered a tax hit of LESS than $92 per week, then the Federal budget could end up GAINING from this , even after allowing for some higher levels for vets & pensioners.

    Its not an argument about giving people more, its a proposal for efficiency.

    It is also a statement by we the people- however inept and lazy someone is, we are not prepared to see their condition sink below a certain level! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??

    Then it could be argued that the increase in personal economic security would lead to a reduction in crime...
    A think $400+ a month would cripple most American's, that would be $800 for a family with two working adults

    Jesus would not use the threat of violence to steal from all, have it funneled and robbed and then given to other's. Jesus would rather you hide the money from the taxman and give it to the poor yourself. Ideally, he would want you to give up all your earthly possessions and commit your life to helping.
    Hi, do you mean, when you say it would cripple them - it's not enough to live on (which is not the aim) , or it is enough to alter their economic behaviour, make them less productive or create dependency? If so then it is too high...
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    I share the anarcho-libertarian distaste for the arrogant state confiscating our assets as if it were theirs.

    We do not need more of that

    Just an acknowledgement that we are there now- its a socialist capitalist hybrid in the USA , not so far removed from the European model. It is redistributive. It advocates a safety net because a well run safety net provides for better social conditions for all.

    For me also, children are important. They are born into a dysfunctional family, through no fault of their own. The social programmes attempt to help these disadvantaged children to do better, to make better choices than their parents.

    That long term investment of resources should hopefully yield returns in terms of less mental illness, crime, and unemployment.

    So at its best, basic income can assist the socialist paradise known as modern America to function better.


    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Hi, do you mean, when you say it would cripple them - it's not enough to live on (which is not the aim) , or it is enough to alter their economic behaviour, make them less productive or create dependency? If so then it is too high...
    I think he meant (he confused your numbers and thought it would cost 92$) the additional cost of 92$ a week (or 400 a month, 800 a month for a couple).



    Though honestly the math doesn't work out right, since we only have about 100,000,000 employed

    So the 123,000,000 with jobs have to pay for the other 127,000,000 who don't have full time employment?


    There's no situation where this doesn't come down to robbery by force; I don't see a way out of this situation using current methods that is morally/ethically sound.
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Quote Posted by risveglio (here)
    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    OK so the USA spends $1.2 trillion per annum on 'social security, unemployment & labor'. Assuming 250 million qualify for basic income they get $4,800 per annum or $92 per week.

    It would be very interesting to study how much of the current $1.2T goes on administration, and the infrastructure to disburse. A lot more than just processing a weekly payment methinks.

    If the average person suffered a tax hit of LESS than $92 per week, then the Federal budget could end up GAINING from this , even after allowing for some higher levels for vets & pensioners.

    Its not an argument about giving people more, its a proposal for efficiency.

    It is also a statement by we the people- however inept and lazy someone is, we are not prepared to see their condition sink below a certain level! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??

    Then it could be argued that the increase in personal economic security would lead to a reduction in crime...
    A think $400+ a month would cripple most American's, that would be $800 for a family with two working adults

    Jesus would not use the threat of violence to steal from all, have it funneled and robbed and then given to other's. Jesus would rather you hide the money from the taxman and give it to the poor yourself. Ideally, he would want you to give up all your earthly possessions and commit your life to helping.
    Hi, do you mean, when you say it would cripple them - it's not enough to live on (which is not the aim) , or it is enough to alter their economic behaviour, make them less productive or create dependency? If so then it is too high...
    Most Americans that are not taking from the state and not in the top 20% are living pretty tight. $800 a month for a couple would be brutal. A lot of people struggle to pay their rent and they don't all drive BMWs. It's probably where you get the most distaste for the people on welfare. The janitor that worked at the school use to complain to me all the time. "So it's either ask my boss for a paycut or just stop working? Then they will help pay for her college? Is my landlord going to give me a discount?" The system is broke because it leads to a broke mind.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    OK but say you were a Janitor on sub average income, you would get your basic income from the state, PLUS your normal wages, minus a slightly higher tax bill

    You would be much better off, and the economy would benefit rapidly from your increased spending...or saving...
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    OK but say you were a Janitor on sub average income, you would get your basic income from the state, PLUS your normal wages, minus a slightly higher tax bill

    You would be much better off, and the economy would benefit rapidly from your increased spending...or saving...
    Would it though? or would it benefit more from the people who earned the money keeping it and spending it as they see fit (clearly they, on average, make better decisions as they do not need additional monies to support themselves)

    What are you encouraging with these types of programs

    & the REAL question:

    WHO DO YOU TAKE FROM? <-- this cannot be ignored, you ARE suggesting that someone be taken from so that it can be given to another.... there is no level of efficiency that makes that acceptable.

    REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
    I have two of my rescue volunteers living in my house right now at no monetary cost to them (electric, water, garbage, internet, toiletries etc.. included), they do a few things around my house in trade; no one forced me to do this but since I had the wherewithal to-do so; I did.. This couldn't be done via government program, not for how much it's "costing" me to do it.

    If I were taxed more heavily I wouldn't be able to do things like that. Do you think my situation is unique? I don't.

    Which of the two would you RATHER foster?

    How about this:

    instead of the government giving out money, the government can give out incentives for people who help like me which enables the person helping to do more? (and by incentives I mean taxed less) That would accomplish your goals but in a completely opposite way (NOT taking more from people to give to others, taking LESS from people so they can be human).
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    I deleted 4 posts from this thread which contained various disrespectful invectives.

    Further actions may be taken upon a consensus from a mod team quorum.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    OK but say you were a Janitor on sub average income, you would get your basic income from the state, PLUS your normal wages, minus a slightly higher tax bill

    You would be much better off, and the economy would benefit rapidly from your increased spending...or saving...
    Would it though? or would it benefit more from the people who earned the money keeping it and spending it as they see fit (clearly they, on average, make better decisions as they do not need additional monies to support themselves)

    What are you encouraging with these types of programs

    & the REAL question:

    WHO DO YOU TAKE FROM? <-- this cannot be ignored, you ARE suggesting that someone be taken from so that it can be given to another.... there is no level of efficiency that makes that acceptable.

    REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
    I have two of my rescue volunteers living in my house right now at no monetary cost to them (electric, water, garbage, internet, toiletries etc.. included), they do a few things around my house in trade; no one forced me to do this but since I had the wherewithal to-do so; I did.. This couldn't be done via government program, not for how much it's "costing" me to do it.

    If I were taxed more heavily I wouldn't be able to do things like that. Do you think my situation is unique? I don't.

    Which of the two would you RATHER foster?

    How about this:

    instead of the government giving out money, the government can give out incentives for people who help like me which enables the person helping to do more? (and by incentives I mean taxed less) That would accomplish your goals but in a completely opposite way (NOT taking more from people to give to others, taking LESS from people so they can be human).
    Hi, that sounds great too. People have to decide how to organise their own society, I'm sure we agree that we need a more benign and less intrusive state, and better conditions for the people. I think history shows that most state attempts to do something helpful are not in net overall terms helpful...
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Hi, that sounds great too. People have to decide how to organise their own society, I'm sure we agree that we need a more benign and less intrusive state, and better conditions for the people. I think history shows that most state attempts to do something helpful are not in net overall terms helpful...
    That's the main issue with any "basic income" idea that I hear... it just involves more government (and very possibly causes dependency) & I cannot think of a single government program that did what it was intended to do with even an "acceptable" outcome.




    I think humans (if they chose to be) are very resourceful and inventive. I do not think we need an external force (government) to solve our problems, we just have to get off our ass(es) and solve them ourselves!


    BE the change you want to see... BE IT!
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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  27. Link to Post #116
    United States Avalon Member xbusymom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by risveglio (here)
    Quote Posted by Draco (here)
    One idea but not the hole solution is to stop competing with each other, and help more than beat, aid instead of control. just removing competing aspect from society would be one step in riding of class division and restoring social harmony. No means will it instantly fix poverty or bring peace but got to start somewhere.
    Also a great way to keep us completely stagnant.
    I disagree with 'stagnant'... but if we can adopt a mindset of improving someones' ideas for the sake of helping mankind...

  28. Link to Post #117
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Right now, governments skim about a third of the average worker's income right off the top as source deductions. That's one hour of yours and my work for every three hours we work. For the average worker that translates into about 15 years of labor, or 30,000 hours. In Canada alone that works out to about 600hrs. * 10,000,000ppl. = 6 billion man hours per year! Are you telling me that with that sort of numbers, we can't provide for every man woman and child in our country? To keep it very obvious let's use actual numbers. You think maybe 2 billion hours for food production could fill every belly? How about 2 billion more for the construction of homes for everyone? 1 billion hours for schooling/ training? That still leaves another billion hours, maybe for government? Don't forget - that is every single year!

    If a third of my own work was left for my own personal use, I could, in thirty thousand hours, easily build my own home from scratch with a shovel, saw and hammer. With plenty of time left over to grow a bit of food. I wouldn't even need the other two thirds! That just buys the extraneous stuff this modern world says I have to have but don't actually need - plus the fines, fees and licenses they have invented the better to fleece us with.

    So, 30,000 hours worth of our work is consumed as taxes and now in their largesse they want to give a small portion of that back to us as a basic income? And we want to go for it? And praise our masters for being so progressive?

    I think more time should be spent understanding just how much of our sweat is stolen from us in the first place.

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  30. Link to Post #118
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Quote Posted by Yetti (here)
    THANKS OZMIRAGE, THE WHOLE IDEA IS UNVIABLE, BECAUSE OF THE FACTS YOU EXPLAIN BEFORE.

    [1] wHAT WOULD BE EFFECTIVE IS ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX, THE PROPERTY TAX, ELIMINATE THE MANDATORY INSURANCE ( WHERE IS OUR RIGHT TO SAY NO?) AND THE MEDICAL TAXES.

    [2] LET THE PEOPLE DEAL WITH THEIR MONEY AND LIFE AS THEY WISH,

    [3] AND JUST PAY A MINIMUM MUNICIPAL TAX TO PAY ROADS,FIREFIGHTERS AND EDUCATION. GOVERNMENT?

    [4] DEAL WITH A MINIMUM WAGE AS EVERYONE ELSE AND VOLUNTARY WORK,

    [5] ANYWAY THEY DO CLAIM TO BE THERE TO HELP THE PEOPLE......
    [1] No government instituted to secure rights can tax endowed rights. Only government granted privileges ("civil rights", etc) are subject to taxation. And to be a subject citizen requires consent of the governed.

    [2] That is already in the law.

    [3] No municipality can tax endowed rights. Only privileges it grants can be subject to an excise tax.

    [4] The controversy over the minimum wage is complicated by socialism and debauched money token system. The remedy is extricating oneself from that insanity.

    [5] Governments were instituted to secure endowed rights. Without our consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).

  31. Link to Post #119
    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Push To Implement Basic Income For All

    Our situation regarding basic earnings is pretty different in Canada from the US Ernie. We are more like Europeans, free healthcare, acess to welfare (food stamps + rent) which pretty much encompassess the basic human needs which are health coverage, roof and food - albeit none of this with quality since they are free basic coverage.

    Therefore our 1/3 work life spent for others goes to the 1/3 of our workforce working in government positions with absolutley incredibly good coverage (salaries, health coverage and pension - I have calculated that when they retired, government employees in Canada, like secretaries and blue collar workers, worth more than 1.2 millions $ each of them if compared with the self employed and small firms employees (90% of the business market supplying the society's revenues) that has to put this aside in order to have the same pension - none of them realise how rich they are - cause nobody self employed is able to put that much aside in a lifetime and we pay for their extraordinary comfort)

    And that 1/3 of our working hours also serve to give a minimum for living to those impoverished, if they do not drink/drug themselves. Not much left to them, just enough for bare survival.

    So I would say that here, we have the minimum revenue for all. The scandal is not welfare, but the mismanagement of governments, the large contribution to all kinds of mafias (corruption) and in Quebec at least, the large power of workers Unions, mostly government workers Unions, making it impossible for the small medium size business employee to make ends meet, since we support it all.


    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Right now, governments skim about a third of the average worker's income right off the top as source deductions. That's one hour of yours and my work for every three hours we work. For the average worker that translates into about 15 years of labor, or 30,000 hours. In Canada alone that works out to about 600hrs. * 10,000,000ppl. = 6 billion man hours per year! Are you telling me that with that sort of numbers, we can't provide for every man woman and child in our country? To keep it very obvious let's use actual numbers. You think maybe 2 billion hours for food production could fill every belly? How about 2 billion more for the construction of homes for everyone? 1 billion hours for schooling/ training? That still leaves another billion hours, maybe for government? Don't forget - that is every single year!

    If a third of my own work was left for my own personal use, I could, in thirty thousand hours, easily build my own home from scratch with a shovel, saw and hammer. With plenty of time left over to grow a bit of food. I wouldn't even need the other two thirds! That just buys the extraneous stuff this modern world says I have to have but don't actually need - plus the fines, fees and licenses they have invented the better to fleece us with.

    So, 30,000 hours worth of our work is consumed as taxes and now in their largesse they want to give a small portion of that back to us as a basic income? And we want to go for it? And praise our masters for being so progressive?

    I think more time should be spent understanding just how much of our sweat is stolen from us in the first place.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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