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Thread: Star Trek / End of money for society

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    United States Avalon Member bluekungfoo's Avatar
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    Default Star Trek / End of money for society

    I have either seen or read about the concept that Star Trek has in regards to a no money society...

    An it was something to it wasn't needed any more not because the government was paying for everything for everyone, but because society started to value achievements that contributed to everyone or the planet in general, and in turn a person would gain prestige , notoriety , ... and perhaps a kind of bartering was established on top of this...

    So I guess a question is how does a community begin to establish such a non money based system, and one thing I remembered , that I read here before and have seen on tv, is Free stands, now the one I saw here was based on an honor system which did ask for money ( pay what you feel it is worth ) in Alaska they in parts of Alaska any how in small remote communities they have free shacks , where items are stored that are still of use, and all that is asked is to leave something behind that someone cause use as well.

    The obvious barrier to such an evolved world, is our own governments and those who need their money to maintain their power.

    It isn't an unachievable idea, it wouldn't lead to a lazy society, because people would still need to work, to be apart of society , contributing in any way possible...

    any thoughts,

    any ideas or other reasons why it cant work or might not, and then possible solutions to make it work.

    I am not suggesting a perfect society that star trek fantasizes , but a tangible way to put an end to living based on money.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Really good question; the concept featured in quite a few episodes of ST-TOS & movies and ST-TNG but it was never really explained in any of the incarnations of TREK as to HOW they achieved it or how it really worked? ie how do you acquire/buy or sell "stuff"? How does an "economy" work? How do you make things or get "paid" for your efforts, labour or services?

    How do you get rid of human greed?
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 7th June 2016 at 05:36.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Here's some Trekker Links (which attempt) to explain it (and I'm none the wiser! ):






    http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/featur...rek-economics/

    Quote A Guide to Star Trek economics
    By Greg Stevens on September 4th, 2013

    In the movie Star Trek: First Contact, Jean-Luc Picard, Captain of the starship Enterprise, is asked how much it cost to build his impressive space-faring vessel. “The economics of the future are somewhat different,” he replies. “You see, money doesn’t exist in the twenty-fourth century … The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”

    Less eloquently, Captain Kirk implies the same conclusion in a comment to Commander Spock in the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, after they have travelled back in time to the twentieth century: “They’re still using money,” he says. “We need to get some.”

    Across the Star Trek franchise, from the original series and movies to the various spin-offs and reincarnations, the precise nature of twenty-fourth century economics is never quite pinned down. In some speeches, characters wax eloquent about the fact that in the future basic needs like food and shelter are “not an issue”, so that people do not have to work for money.

    Yet in other stories, plots revolve around debt, the cost of repairs and gambling. There are times when “Starfleet credits” are mentioned, and of course alien cultures that they encounter have their own currencies and rules. So how exactly does the economy in the twenty-fourth century world of Star Trek operate?

    There is a relatively mundane way to interpret the famous line “money doesn’t exist in the twenty-fourth century”: humanity has simply gotten rid of currency, but still has some kind of electronic accounting system: a digital cash-equivalent.

    The idea of a cashless society, in the sense that all transactions are electronic, has been a common one in science fiction since at least the 1970s. Robert Heinlein foresaw it in I Will Fear No Evil (1970), and John Brunner wrote about it in The Shockwave Rider (1975). In both William Gibson’s Count Zero (1986) and Pat Cadigan’s Fools (1992), cash still exists in a technical sense, but only criminals use it.

    In Harry Harrison’s The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted, a utopian society claims that they have done away with money, and instead people pay for things with an electronically-measured unit called a “wirr”, that represents a “work hour”. But in most practical senses, this is just another kind of “money”, as well.

    Whether society has evolved into the cutting-edge world of paperless electronic credits, or deteriorated into a post-apocalyptic barter system, the fundamental economic core is still the same in all of these futuristic visions: people exchange stuff of value for other stuff of value.

    Let’s be clear: that is not the utopian Star Trek vision. The Star Trek vision is much more radical.

    Economics without scarcity

    According to popular legend, Gene Roddenberry himself laid out very specific rules about his vision of the world in the twenty-fourth century Star Trek universe. Not only was there to be no “currency”, but there was to be no concept of accumulating wealth. People’s basic needs of food and shelter were provided for: hunger and homelessness were completely solved. People did not take on jobs in order to survive: instead, people engaged in activities to enrich themselves and the world around them.

    Practically speaking, script writers could only follow this edict some of the time. Too many perennial human dilemmas and plot-lines revolve around wealth, work and payment in some form. It would be unbearably limiting to exclude them completely, across the hundreds of storylines of a decades-long, multi-faceted franchise.

    The notion that eliminating material scarcity will lead people to live lives of self-improvement is psychological, not economic.

    But the “pure” Roddenberry vision was articulated well from time to time, even if the details were sometimes lacking. In multiple episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Jean-Luc Picard finds himself explaining that all material needs are taken care of in the twenty-fourth century, and that people are motivated by the desire to improve and enrich themselves.

    The notion that eliminating material scarcity will lead people to live lives of self-improvement is psychological, not economic. Even back in the 1960s, people were familiar with Maslow’s famous “hierarchy of needs”: the theory that people have different “levels” of needs, and that a person must fulfil one level of needs before he or she can move on to addressing the next level.

    According to the hierarchy of needs, a person must first deal with meeting physiological needs, such as hunger, thirst, and sleep. Once those are met, the next most pressing set of needs are safety needs: shelter, health, family, and property. Once those are met, a person can move on to love, self-esteem and finally “self-actualisation”: the enriching of the self.

    Maslow’s hierarchy has long been a favorite of pop-psychologists and has been used and abused in both fiction and journalism since the 1940s. But it is fairly clear, even just from the language that he uses, that Roddenberry is inspired by conceptual framework of the hierarchy. If human endeavours are seen as advancing up this noble ladder of advancement, then any society where all of the basic low-level needs are bet would obviously be left to while away their time exclusively on love, self-esteem, and self-actualisation.

    We can even speculate about how this might have happened. From the very beginning, the Star Trek universe had the “transporter”: a machine that could turn any physical object into energy, and transmit that energy (or at least information about the original pattern) across space so that energy could then be converted into that same physical form at the destination.

    A natural extension of this technology is the “replicator”, which essentially is nothing more than the receiving end of a transporter. This object simply has patterns for different types of physical objects stored in memory, and can create, on demand, any physical object from energy based on these patterns.

    If you can make anything you want out of energy, and you have all of the energy in the universe at your disposal, then presumably you can have any physical thing that you want.

    There are details, of course. Manual labor hasn’t been eliminated, because presumably someone has to operate the replicators, and move their products from place to place. One can only assume that large objects would have to be created in parts, and then human labor would be needed to assemble those parts.

    We can also assume that these people would not need to be paid to perform this labour, because they already are having all of their physical needs met. Why do they perform this labour, then? Clearly they are motivated to assemble the large object – whatever it is – out of their sense of duty and their desire to improve humanity.

    It’s all very tidy. But is that how people really work?

    Power-mongers and mischief-makers

    In Damon Knight’s novel A is for Everything, technology exists that can duplicate any item. According to the basic rules of economics, this means that objects no longer have any “value” in the economic sense of being used to engage in buying, selling, and exchanging.

    But in this world, another human psychological factor comes into play: power. Even in today’s society, money is only partially about accumulating “stuff”: it is also about exerting and maintaining power over people. If you remove physical objects as things of value that can be used to accumulate and direct power, then there has to be something else that will take their place.

    When you can have anything you want, the only thing worth having is people.

    In the world of A is for Everything, it is human labor. Rather than having an economy based on self-improvement and voluntary creative exploration of the universe, the economy is based on a slave trade.

    Psychologically, it makes sense: when you can have anything you want, the only thing worth having is people. So those who seek out power and control still achieve it through buying and selling; they simply don’t achieve it through the buying and selling of things.

    In Rudy Rucker’s novel Realware, an alien race gifts humans with a device called an “alla”, which can literally create any object out of thin air, and can also make any object disappear. The characters who make this discovery engage in a very long and complex discussion about the social and economic implications of such a device.

    One of the biggest fears that comes up in this discussion is the simple fear of pranks and mischief-makers. Mischief-makers of this kind are largely absent from the Star Trek universe, but they are a very real component of humanity. One can imagine duels where one person turns a hilltop into a giant house, and his hippie neighbor turns it into a forest, back and forth all day.

    What happens when a prankster decides to disappear your car while you are driving it? What happens when someone decides to create a giant ball of uranium in the town square?

    To quote from Realware: “But what kind of kinky kilp would psychos make? A thousand ton turd in the middle of Union Square! A statement turd, you wave? And of course there’d be giant crucifixes everyplace. And just imagine solid, three-dimensional graffiti…. “ Another character adds: “….and you forget porno and political ads.”

    In truth, this would be the reality of any economic system based on the idea that anybody can have or make anything that he wants at any time. Sure, some people will want to band together and perform great creative deeds for the betterment of humanity, in concordance with the philosophy of Star Trek’s Federation.

    But some people – maybe even most people – will want a thousand-ton turd.

    - See more at: http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/featur....MQgH72vt.dpuf
    http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-d...y-work.149323/

    http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...ce-less-societ

    http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...traders-and-me

    http://jimmyakin.com/2005/08/the_economics_o-2.html

    https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/co...trek_universe/
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 7th June 2016 at 06:34.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    i always refer to Star Trek for Money less Society in regarding the future with advance tech, it's god damn frustrated that people ignore it consider it not important.

    No Money society might not work in the past but with current time should able to work...in every or any of kind society people still work but for purpose of community as to help the species evolve. for instance currently i'm into programming and i could involve some sort of project like developing a system that cleaning toilet which many people doesn't want to do...at the same time i'm working and learning, my strong point is creative able to come up all sort of ideas.

    i find for No Money to work is to get rid of Desire and greed as Captain Picard said and also take responsibility..these days i still don't understand why we the individual must have ownership of stuff like Cars or house? why own a car while your doesn't drive that much? for instance at i go work and my car parked for 4-5 hours which could have been used by someone else during those 4-5 hours, during those 4-5 house of you could use that car travel point A to Point B. having these thought that question always on my mind why we have such a desire obtaining stuff instead of having it as Public Ownership everyone can use.

    as Robots/Automation on the rise unskilled jobs will be gone...
    Last edited by apokalypse; 7th June 2016 at 05:37.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    And replicators that will make everything you need, including food. (But who makes & repairs the replicators???)

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    if anyone said Gene Roddenberry is one of Contactee...i can agree with that, Gene is so ahead of it's time. If human get rid of Greed within 2-3 decades we getting there. just think of current society Money is not primary focus...we still have money but it put it to where it needed like building infrastructure and so on.

    question i was wondering is How? how society going to be manage?

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Quote Posted by apokalypse (here)
    If human get rid of Greed within 2-3 decades we getting there.
    Greed can be a good thing - if correctly channelled, into say improvement of self, improvement of others, improvement of the world. The first step of a moneyless society is to remove the present human "incentive" as it currently stands, which is money and capitalism, and the promise of material wealth/comfort/luxury.

    When all goods and services are provided for free by a caring, progressive government, materialism as an incentive shifts, and disintegrates. Then the incentive becomes self-improvement in not the material, but as Roddenberry suggests the spiritual, intellectual, philosophical and altruistic. etc..
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Post Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    They predict that it was a big economic-crises in the early 21st century, and it is the foundation for the economy in the future? :-)

    Future tense 2020
    Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Past Tense,
    Last edited by Valle; 7th June 2016 at 13:49.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Well, an expansion in energy manipulation and control (fundamental outer shift) - the requisite other part to balance it out.... is a increase in psychological stability and control (in humans) (fundamental inner shift). The fundamental outer shift will create the fundamental inner shift. The trick is to have the outer one educate the inner one... or the inner one inform and create the outer one.

    Some sort of combination of the two will happen in people, to various degrees, depending on the individual. As children grow up in the given systems, we will see a fundamental system that is self stabilizing into some form of a new shape or order.

    We know what this looks like, to some degree, as we have 'adults' (16~24) who have never lived without the internet as a fundamental. (a minor change that most can witness)

    We also have some bad examples in how a child born into money is not the same decent balanced person as the parent, the parent who had to work their way into it. Ie, that the lessons were not there in their child's upbringing and fundamental shaping. And the child is a complete dangerous asshat.

    This is part of the problem faced when infinite energy arrives on the scene with no learned and shaping backdrop in the given person, that gives them the balance to handle it and produce a new functional society around such emergent mentality.

    So, we hope for the emergence of balance, but it is difficult to say what will happen. If you want to go without monetary leveraging and into infinite energies, with people as they are today, well, that's a pipe dream of sorts, as people have yet to develop with the balance within them to deal with such extremes of energy manipulation at their fingertips.

    We see these sorts of issues tackled in many a science fiction scenario, and one major problem is the knowing and being in the given sci-fi exposition, is not there, the context of being is not there, no matter how hard they try. It is seen in sci-fi movies of various futures, both open and dystopian, and these expositions have to focus on how modern existing humans see and feel about such things, the context has to be wrong ....so the relational aspects function for the given current viewer, and the film or book or whatever, is financially successful. the very best in origin, concept and projection in potentials... causes them to be a failure in what they attempt to communicate, in many a case. the best ones tend to have the most limited audience, for reasons I hope can be seen, as in, it is not the common dream.

    The reality is that the context in correct actual function of those states, would probably seem more alien to us than familiar. Creepy and different would probably be the mildest terms used to describe them.

    We would probably look and feel like radicalized flesh eating projecting aggressive violent butchers to such people. Which in fact, we are. No one can talk about love and sharing while sinking their teeth into a ham sandwich, that's just hypocritical blindsided horse****, plain and simple.

    my point, is that these sort of things, like a future with no money ...so no weighting of life by capture and manipulated egotistical values...have a fulcrum in the moment of physical interface... and the two ends must balance out, the inner and the outer must balance, otherwise ...it fails. And when we meet such peoples.. those with no money..... and it's entire world of integral aspects, we have neither the inner nor outer balance they have, within us. The two are strikingly different.

    If you consider the idea of a breakaway society, an idea which is entering the modern lexicon and mainstream aspect of the alternative world of analysis (like this forum, etc)..... a breakaway society that is intelligent, militant, hierarchical, organized, strict, and extreme..well that would be, believe it or not, a NATURAL beginning point for the introduction of such free energy systems in the face of an overall alien environment, ie UFO's and so on.

    Intelligence would take a logical tack, and the idea of emotions running the thought pattern would banished into a dumpster and disallowed, as such a thing is killer for attempts to playing in that environment of multi-dimensions, free energy, infinite power, alien contact, and so on.

    It's about shift and continuance of humanity, plain and simple. If you are not on board, you are in the dirt, down here, like the reader of this text. Obvious logic in the face of it.

    Only when that breakaway system is stable, would the average human be given a chance to play with over unity, extreme biology, and so on.

    I think we are nearing that time.
    Last edited by Carmody; 7th June 2016 at 15:29.
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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    The plejaren have a system where everyone works two hours each day, doing something for the good of the community they live in ... one could plant trees, work a garden, help build something, each day the individual can choose something different, after the two hours they each carry a blue card which is punched , allowing them to aquire anything they need for daily living , the rest of the day is spent on self development...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    STAR TREK AND MONEY
    Quote “We don’t use money in the 24th century. Money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”
    - - - - Captain Jean-Luc Picard
    >Improve the human condition for ourselves and the rest of humanity.<

    They almost got it right. . .

    It is true that money madness (which includes usury) is behind much pain and suffering.

    The bottom line is that our reason to labor, sweat and sacrifice must change from “making money” (constrained by money madness and all that entails) to “that’s what civilized people do - be productive, trade and enjoy!”

    But that does not mean to suffer inequitable trade, nor compulsory labor for the benefit of another ("to each according to his need, from each according to his ability...").

    If money cured poverty, then let us eradicate poverty by crediting 22 billion billion quatloos to everyone. Everyone is equally “rich.” No one ever “needs money” again. But does that eradicate poverty? Of course not. Unless people are industriously laboring, producing, and transporting goods and services all that money is useless, worthless and meaningless. The same can be said for “redistribution of wealth” - a flawed remedy for the wrong problem.

    We need prosperity - the production, trade and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services. We don't need impediments to that prosperity.
    {And money madness is an impediment in current human culture.}

    The REAL function of any medium of exchange is to pass value to a future trade, when barter is insufficient. Once that trade is completed, there should not be anything of value left behind - which includes the medium of exchange.

    To illustrate, two people enter into a trade, one wants food, the other wants the shiny item. The man who wants the shiny item, has no food, but a coupon for one meal at Mikki-D’s Burgers. They trade. Later, the coupon holder tenders the coupon for a meal, value is passed, and thus receives his desired meal, but the coupon is now discharged - and destroyed.

    Since no one “destroys” money when the last transaction is accomplished it implies that there is still value in the money (which should have “passed value”) ... which is why it’s called money madness. The abstraction becomes the reality, supplanting real prosperity with the mindless search for “more money.” It gets so bad, that people begin to hoard their money tokens, defeating their purpose - facilitating trade - and severely impacting their economies.


    Money Madness
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...-Money-Madness
    The secret of life is that there is no secret of life.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    ..........
    Last edited by TODD & NORA; 18th August 2016 at 03:42.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Hello Pray Peace, Why are you mentioning a war as if it's a foregone conclusion? No one knows what will happen in this timeline. "Insiders" have been warning about an impending war for years, and it has never happened yet. Truth be told, we are in a war right now... We can create our own timeline, this is is one of the ultimate secrets of human beings.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Really good question; the concept featured in quite a few episodes of ST-TOS & movies and ST-TNG but it was never really explained in any of the incarnations of TREK as to HOW they achieved it or how it really worked? ie how do you acquire/buy or sell "stuff"? How does an "economy" work? How do you make things or get "paid" for your efforts, labour or services?

    How do you get rid of human greed?
    The below was cross-posted to another thread....

    To move into the realm of which Star Trek exhibits, its a matter of making the transition to happen. There are some people that are working to move into this new paradigm. And to make it a reality. The transition is in process.

    If you haven't heard of Walter Burien, then it would be good to pay attention to what he is attempting to bring about.


    Walter Burien, CAFR-1


    The following transcript starts at [2:21:33]

    John B: Let me ask you a couple budgetary questions...

    So, these [bankers, politicians, bureaucrats, etc.] are basically gangsters that run this, there are not going to go easy... There was quite a lot older gentleman that one time told me that the reason why those inside the courts - the judges & so forth - seem to be so lenient toward criminals is because many are criminals themselves. Well, I thought, "Whoa, that's kind of a stretch." But, the point is, these people cannot be shifted, really, can they? I mean, anything that is short of a French-style revolution, or a French Revolution-style upheaval change anything?

    Walter Burien: Well, that's what its taken at times in the past. Regarding those judges, its not just so much that they're criminals themselves, they are generating revenue for their own court system by perpetuating crime, enhancing crime - getting the street criminal more pissed-off to fight back and create more crime!

    John B: Sure, that's protecting their own investment is what that is.

    Walter Burien: Yes. The prison systems & everything else are investment hubs & profit centers. And the average Joe-public is saying, "Oh, my god, this person did this, did that!" And they don't realize that this is all being promoted to them, spoon-fed to them, to build up the biggest profit centers possible, from the court systems, from the prison systems, and take out any opposition. You could have probably 10% of the political prisoners sitting in prison & no one would have a clue.

    Yeah, when government uses its power to take you out, eliminate you or smash you, they have the ability to do so. They can destroy your business, they can destroy your family, they can destroy everything you have - I know, because I have been up against it.

    But regarding the money & the wealth, keep in mind what I am saying, here, the public is not aware of what was going on, not aware of the expansion of wealth of the gross income of government. They have constantly promoted shortfalls, shortfalls!

    These judges keep a very low profile on how much they're making, how much they're bringing in, and how many deals they're cutting underneath the table. And of course, effectively, its organized crime.

    You know George Noory?

    John B: I know of him, lol!

    Walter Burien: I did a show with him over a year ago. And about 45 minutes into the discussion, I said, "George, do you know the easiest way I could steal $250,000 from you?" And his instant reply was, "Tax me." I said, "No, there is a much easier way." He says, "What's that Walter?" I said, "If you didn't know you had it in the first place."

    That sunk in.

    This the reason why the "Silence is Golden Rule" is played out...

    Now, if you Google "Representative Hanna" + CAFR... Hanna was the Speaker of the House of Oregon back in 2010... (I guess I was having my effect) He gets up during House session, "Well, they tell us that we have $500 million for the entire year to allocate, to spend between ourselves. He goes, "What I have here in my hands is the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (CAFR)." He has a copy of the cover-page. He goes, "In this report, it says there is $4.8 billion undesignated, unreserved, not restricted, and out of that $3.8 + billion is available for spending - NOT $500 million. So, when it comes down to whether we have this large tax increases that we are talking about, I think we should all review this report, and what it says. And I'm going email this out to everyone of you tonight."

    It was only a 3 minute video. Now, this video should have gone viral all over the country, as it is applicable to any local government in the country. But it was suppressed! They blocked the hit counter, stripped it off their search engines. So very few people would see it. Even the ones that were seeing it, the hit counter was kept very low. I accomplished over 15,000 hits from just passing it around myself. In the first week I saw it was up there.


    So, on the "Silence is Golden Rule" there are many steps that are taken to maintain that environment, whether it be the media - there's total exclusion from the media - you're not going to have your 'talking head' on ABC, NBC or CBS News or local affiliates - Phoenix, Dallas or Miami - saying anything about this Comprehensive Annual Financial Report that every government in our State produces - the city, county, school district, our enterprises, even our pension funds produce... "Now, I'd like any of our viewers to google that & look that up and download it & get back to me with a comment about what was found..."

    Now, if any reporter that would put that out, they would find themselves kicked out the door the very next day. They would no longer be an anchor. I was able to talk one into doing it back in 1994 - Mary Flanagan, worked for ABC, channel 33 at the time. She made mention on the evening 10 o'clock news, the next day 7am, they would air the same news sequence, they cut that segment & she was no longer an anchor 2 days later. I challenged her to make mention of it in, as I had Arizona's 1994 CAFR in my hand. She did a full 40 second camera shot of it and made a few comments - That didn't go over too well.

    There was a guy that was running for the governor of Oregon, Rich Smith, back in 1998 or '99. He put up the CAFR on his website, put it on a email post for the State & a few of the local governments. He was already accepted by the Republican Party - they dropped him like a hot potato & went into obscurity. Now, keep in mind, both the Democrat & Republic party heads have been in this for 40 years. They know what its all about. Most people don't realize that both the Democrat & Republican parties are private organizations - like the Boy Scouts. They were created to network the population to get their people to get access to the till. It has nothing to do with benefiting the population. It has to do with getting their people in there to get access to the till. I've heard them say - many times I've gotten the feedback from people who were offered to be higher up, they were told what they were to do, when they get in - they can do whatever they want - because that is the intent.

    The school districts - they'll put together their own Comprehensive Annual Financial Report - state universities, community colleges - you can have a university saying, "Oh, we're short on our budget, we're going to have to raise tuition 7-8% this year." You can look at their Annual Financial Report, and you know they could be $8-1/2 billion in the black!

    Again - a selective presentation. And, with the 'maintained void' kept over the entire population, you have to realize what you're up against, from scratch-one. Start looking, put into a Google search "City of Miami Comprehensive Annual Financial Report" and blip! - up pops their CAFR. Community college, university, city, county, State - do the same thing along with CAFR in quotes & blip up it pops.

    I am emphasizing that when you start looking for the first time - breaching the void in the vacuum that was intentionally spoon-fed to you, the scope & the size of this will rock your world & you will never be the same. You will realize that your entire lifetime has been an illusion - a false presentation in being spoon-fed. All the entertainment that been shown - Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, this, that & the other thing - is so you never look at the basics & the fundamentals that are staring you right in the face.

    John B: Given the glibness of the politicians, and the secrecy all around these enormous financial transactions, what are we suppose to do here. What's the biggest problem the public faces right now. I understand that the housing bubble is still there - that it never left.

    Walter Burien:
    I understand your question. My first prong approach was for disclosure - and that I've done. I've reached over 55 million people, internationally. People are now looking. When I first started - nobody knew. Now, one out of four people within the country know. The second aspect is remedy. So, what I've structured is a group called TRFA - Tax Retirement Fund Association - which is designed to do what it says - retire taxation. And I'm getting the national headquarters together right now, I've had a million dollar backing come in from Texas to get this operation going. And what I'll be doing is local governments - city, county, school district - I'll be showing them how they can set up a fiduciary trust account, to consolidate their investment assets, have some mandatory contributions from enterprise operations. And from that fiduciary trust pay all their operating budgets - all of them. Taxation is not needed. All that taxation is, it is a revenue source, period! So based on this massive infrastructure government has built up already, we can consolidate under a fiduciary trust account designed to phase out & eliminate all taxation.

    And for the management of the trust, I'm putting together 12 points, which cover all aspects of doing this. And each one of the points, the population is the first-line beneficiary. And what this does is it takes taxation out of the picture for the first time in history. And more importantly - you know that taxation has been going on for 10,000 years - what you've had in history is government administration (however it may have been), and all the industrial cartels (however they may have been), and they came up together to use the population as a productivity resource to be drained & managed - never has been a good thing, never will be a good thing.

    And going under the fiduciary trust principle to phase out all taxation - what that does, also now, is it puts everyone on the same page for the first time in history - population, government administration & the financial industrial cartels. Now they want to see a prosperous economy. The focus is not on draining the population - getting over on the population to drain them in any way, shape & form - its to see a thriving economy.

    So, on the fiduciary trust funds, you have this massive pool of investment wealth for capital re-investment. You know, businesses are happy & so forth, you have the population now with taxation phased out, their maintaining their productivity value - more to spend - driving the economy, higher rates of return on investments, more truckloads of cash running back in for government on their investment trusts.

    So there is no reason for non disclosure [regarding CAFRs & hiding actual real budgets from the public], its an open picture now, everyone benefits and you have everyone on the same page for the first time in history. And that's what my attention is focused on now, it is to set up this structure & get it rolling along. And I'll be setting up a central database, putting about 170,000 managers into the database, showing their performance 5, 10, 15, 25 years, money under management. So if a city like Miami, Florida called me saying they wanted to go on the fiduciary trust principle, I hit a key stroke & it pulls up 15 managers local to Miami showing their track record for the last 25 years, they're sent out an acceptance letter to manage the city's fiduciary trust fund, and there's a set guidelines for the phasing out of all taxation in a venue to switch over their budgets strictly from the fiduciary trust fund.

    So yeah, we're talking a dynamic paradigm shift, here, that not just lowers taxation but phases it out & eliminates it, breaks through the non disclosure that's been going on for the last thousand years - from the 'boys'. It puts everybody on the same page. And, it leads to a prospering economy that is self-perpetuating itself for the next thousand years, or what I call "the millennium of prosperity". All these gloom & doomers, especially the religious ones - "World's Coming to an End!" Ah, excuse me, have you ever heard of "The Millennium of Prosperity that we're all promised? That hasn't happened yet, so I think you're jumping the gun on the end of the world thing." I'm working on the millennium factor.

    But I have to be able to get through the government's greed & opportunity principle. This whole thing developed out of greed & opportunity. The vault door was left open, the public didn't have a clue - they made sure the public didn't have a clue - and they kept expanding. So if you don't satisfy the greed & opportunity principle, it ain't going to work. But here, with the structure I am setting up with the TRFA, government actually brings in more money. They have a stable economy, a growing, flourishing economy. The population maintains their productivity, growing their wealth base. The businesses & the financial cartels - unlimited pools of capital investment - they're happy.

    So now you have all three groups happy for the first time. And, its satisfying the greed & opportunity principle - population, government administration and financial industrial cartels. Now the government administration is going to be the hardest nut to crack because they've been so profound that non disclosure / entertaining the population / misdirecting the population / scaring the population - their whole world revolves around that.

    But I'm going to make it very clear. I'm going out to D.C. sometime in the near future & get a room in the Senate Building, invite all the Congress, governors & Senate to a presentation. And I'm going to make it very clear that out of their own greed & opportunity principle they've created a 300 car freight train, moving at 400 miles an hour towards a 1 mile thick concrete wall. The collision is inevitable & its not going to be a pretty sight. And it only going to happen because of their own greed & opportunity principle & their need to have ultimate, absolute control based on how they're operating now.

    Under this structure, everyone wins, and you have a thriving economy over the next 1,000 years. And if I can get it through their heads, and it registers regarding satisfying their greed & opportunity principle fairly, it will happen. And the population may say, "What happened?" The bottom-line is taxation is phased out of the picture for the first time in history, and all three power groups being on the same page. Its never been that way in history. But it can happen. So, that is what I'm focusing my full attention on - to make that happen.

    Ending Taxation: The Only Game in Town


    Last edited by turiya; 10th June 2016 at 18:10.

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    Australia Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    i need abit of a rant how i feel right now with society with the problem that i seen or face right now. After my grandfather dead about year ago and now whole family take care of stubborn uncooperative grandmother who are Alzheimer/Dementia which give carer mental breakdown over time. with all the screams and yelling i'm really frustrated with society...being Asian it's tough when in a culture younger people always must and listen to who is older than you are especially Parents, only one person able to deal with it are my grandfather. for months especially weeks now i find Society does nothing but create fear and doesn't help the individuals but we help ourselves.

    society isn't about Life but illusions of materials things and power, just heard few stories in one of the town at my home country use to be great and now the town is insane facing all kind of problems like people became unstructured-criminals-no compassion which is sad. the town use to be great with great people...i come to conclusion that if you have quality of life then you could became more spiritual person.

    I have heard something about Self Service over night shop in this forum where people need something at night then they just get it and leave the money behind but if you don't have money then leave a note behind pay back next day...why can't society be like this? why we have so many homeless around the country when there's enough food and shelter goes around? why we even go to court over Money?

    with any valued based such as Money/Currency or what ever you called it will not work..

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    .
    This is the simplest version of how come we have money... it's hard to think of an effective workaround to this problem!

    Read carefully.
    • I have a bunch of apples from my orchard.
    • You have a bunch of pears.
    • I want your pears, and you want my apples. So we swap. Not a problem.
    But here's a different situation.
    • Now, our neighbor has potatoes... but they're not ready yet.
    • You want my apples, now. But I want the potatoes, later. And HE wants pears, which can be kept for him in a cold cellar.
    • So I give you my apples, now. But there's nothing anyone can give me right this moment.
    • So you give me a piece of paper instead, which I later give to the potato guy.
    • And I give you a piece of paper, too.
    • Those papers say:
    1. You owe me a bunch of pears. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.
    2. You owe me a bunch of potatoes. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.
    That's what money is, and how it got started.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Yes, the Barter Trade. This could be convenient and they are applying it in some small communities with people tired of living in big cities. Even in cities, people find alternatives, as this people are doing in Greece
    :

    Last edited by Ines; 13th June 2016 at 17:26.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Quote Posted by Ines (here)
    Yes, the Barter Trade.
    Yes. You see, but simple barter doesn't work if the potatoes are harvested way after the apples.

    That's why one has to create a promissory note. "I promise to pay the bearer on demand one pound of potatoes."


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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    Cash is fine til it's mixed with fiat. That's why bitcoin is loved ==> It's a fixed supply.

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    Default Re: Star Trek / End of money for society

    In the barter network i investigated a few years ago, each person who did work for, or provided goods to, another network member, was given credit of a certain amount. This credit could be exchanged for other goods or services. I believe the network provided an exchange rate of what a good or service was worth in the system. When the exchange rate is equitable you can get a workable arrangement.

    I believe for this kind of arrangement to work on a grander scale than just on a local community level, advanced tech is probably needed, such as zero point energy and highly effective 3D printers. This tech would create such added wealth with only marginal extra human effort that a barter system could flourish, permitting people to live independently, comfortably and in harmony with nature.

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