Star Trek / End of money for society

[Daozen]

3D printers are a very valuable technology that could eventually lift the whole world out of poverty. Note how TPTB tried to smear them a a while ago, saying they could be used to make guns.

[ozmirage]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
.
This is the simplest version of how come we have money... it's hard to think of an effective workaround to this problem!

Read carefully.

• I have a bunch of apples from my orchard.
• You have a bunch of pears.
• I want your pears, and you want my apples. So we swap. Not a problem.

But here's a different situation.

• Now, our neighbor has potatoes... but they're not ready yet.
• You want my apples, now. But I want the potatoes, later. And HE wants pears, which can be kept for him in a cold cellar.
• So I give you my apples, now. But there's nothing anyone can give me right this moment.
• So you give me a piece of paper instead, which I later give to the potato guy.
• And I give you a piece of paper, too.
• Those papers say:

1. You owe me a bunch of pears. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.
2. You owe me a bunch of potatoes. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.

That's what money is, and how it got started.

You almost have it right.

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.

The masters of money madness relied on people confusing an obligation (IOU) with a place holder (token), and have been running the scam for millennia.

[ozmirage]

Please note - Burien and others who claims that there are "trillions and trillions" being "printed up" do not match with the law (12 USC Sec. 411) nor other facts.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.45 trillion in circulation as of April 6, 2016, of which $1.4 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
($4,375 per capita )


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ..._United_States
● ". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/resource.html
● NASA has estimated the mineral wealth of the entire Asteroid Belt could be as much as $700 quintillion, or a seven followed by 20 zero. That’s $100 billion for every one of the 7 billion people on Earth!

=\=\=\=
How can you believe measurements that exceed the known total of circulating monies?
$1.4 T in circulation versus $145.8 T in debt versus 123.8 T “net worth.”
Isn’t that INSANE?
$1.4 T in circulation versus $700 quintillion estimated “dollar value.”
Are we not mad?

What’s really reality: the actual sum of property, goods and services - or - an arbitrary value and sum of money tokens ?
=\=\=\=

If Amancio Ortega, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and a consortium of other billionaires walked into the offices of the largest bank on the planet, and asked for a loan of 20 trillion dollar bills with which to fund mining asteroids worth 300 times that value and were more than willing to pay 15% interest, the bank would have to decline.
WHY?

The.Money.Does.Not.Exist.

- - -
P.S. Congress has no power to create money. It can coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money. It cannot create bullion. (Dollar bills are IOUs, not money)

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by ozmirage (here)

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.

Yes, exactly. Stage two of the process is when the IOUs are retained and used as handy tokens for the barter of home-made candles, furniture, salted beef, labor, or horses.

Simple barter fails immediately when the timing of availability doesn't match up. That's why tokens are needed. (And yes, of course, the entire 'token' system has become hijacked since then.)

[Justplain]

I think an economist would say that money is an iou. When you make something and sell it to someone else in exchange for money, the buyer has given you an iou that he/she got from somewhere else. Money is therefore an iou which can be stored for later use. The central bank issues the iou supposedly based on the growth in value of the nation's economy. The amount of value on a bank's books are the iou's they've lent out, they only have to keep a small amount of that 'on deposit'. So the funds that are out there are still iou's from the central bank. The problem arises if the central bank 'prints'/releases more funds than match the growth in the economy, resulting in inflation. Also, the problem also arises when the central bank prints funds and gives it to whomever they want, like the US central bank, the federal reserve, which is owned privately (no one publicly knows who owns shares in it, is not subject to a public audit, loans money to private and overseas entities and has little or no public oversight).

So to make it short, the exchange of the iou for something else does not require the destruction of the iou, it just means the iou is owed to someone else.

[Peace of Mind]

The only way we will be able to do this is through trust, responsibility, and consideration. As long as people are divided, we will never see the light of this day.

We are so against each other that we actually allow ourselves to be ruled and governed by “Paper”. What’s more discouraging than this is the fact that “paper” is now being replaced with imaginary paper (electronic cash/credit).
We are simply not committed to the prosperity of the species…just the individual. Hardly anyone here even entertains the idea, so we can’t really expect much from the masses. When we are often seen dwelling on the negatives… instead of using the positives to fashion a remedy…how do we progress? When societies are fooled into operating out of debt, while spending more time working than being with family…the future can only be the complete opposite of what Start Trek is displaying.
The potential is there; however, we’ll never meet it because we’re trained to be overly competitive, too sensitive to criticism, possess blind arrogance, encourage egocentric tendencies, becomes envious with ease, too frightened to sacrifice, and ALWAYS confused (purposely) with unimportant matters.

Life is easy (observe all the other Earthy creatures). We struggle ONLY because of our division. As long as we stay at odds…we all lose.
When there are “Law” companies and Libraries filled with thousands and thousands of books giving rules to how to live….we are exercising in being losers. Because standards are made by those with limits.

Peace

[apokalypse]

why you go back to Barter System? it still valued based, we have heard all sort of how et's lived from all sort of contactee sound very Socialism that human beings on planet earth rejected...in transition to no-money society we still have Money but take it away very slowly and put the money where it needs, for instance building infrastructure like Hyperloop, desalination sea water plant and have the pipe to the city/state that need water...ect.

I know everyone is different but for myself i don't care how the clothing looks, had a thought of community center that has section for washing..why people owning washer/dryer when not in use most of the time? i had bunch of clothes need to be wash so i notify Washing center(don't know what to called but you can call what ever you want) and Android pick it up, once pick up the robots will do everything from A to Z. this services will be fully automated and on site you have couple of people work.

my family members just brought and selling house...why we even owning a home? in the future with advance tech like 3d printer could print house, right now i'm kind of bored live in Australia want to move to US or other country..i wish in the future able to Move without any issue or require documentation...all i need is notify Government/Public Agency and they could help get me a land or a home in US, no need these crap with Visa/Citizen. we live on the same planet why so much separation? Once i'm in US-Uk then i look on the job list that need to do or required of my expertise otherwise i can go to school to be train for new field of job..there's no job interview.

Barter system only implies to other civilization...for instance Annunaki required Gold then we could give them Gold in return for something that we human beings on planet earth need. i believe these type of trade happen alot in galactic level.

[ozmirage]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by ozmirage (here)

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.

Yes, exactly. Stage two of the process is when the IOUs are retained and used as handy tokens for the barter of home-made candles, furniture, salted beef, labor, or horses.

Simple barter fails immediately when the timing of availability doesn't match up. That's why tokens are needed. (And yes, of course, the entire 'token' system has become hijacked since then.)

The IOUs / obligations for specific items have become generic obligations for no specific items.
In other words, people have embraced the insanity that money has intrinsic value independent of the marketplace.

There is no one to one correspondence between the whole set of money tokens and the marketplace of goods and services. That's the problem. We're barking mad to constrain our trade to a finite and scarce sum of money tokens.

[ozmirage]

Posted by Justplain (here)
I think an economist would say that money is an iou. When you make something and sell it to someone else in exchange for money, the buyer has given you an iou that he/she got from somewhere else. Money is therefore an iou which can be stored for later use. The central bank issues the iou supposedly based on the growth in value of the nation's economy. The amount of value on a bank's books are the iou's they've lent out, they only have to keep a small amount of that 'on deposit'. So the funds that are out there are still iou's from the central bank. The problem arises if the central bank 'prints'/releases more funds than match the growth in the economy, resulting in inflation. Also, the problem also arises when the central bank prints funds and gives it to whomever they want, like the US central bank, the federal reserve, which is owned privately (no one publicly knows who owns shares in it, is not subject to a public audit, loans money to private and overseas entities and has little or no public oversight).

So to make it short, the exchange of the iou for something else does not require the destruction of the iou, it just means the iou is owed to someone else.

Your assumptions do not match law nor economics, a horrid science at that.
Most people suspect, but can’t quite prove that all eCONomists are mentally ill, money mad, and in denial of reality.

It does not seem to register in their eCONned minds that usury (interest) is an abomination, and mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system. Due to the exponential equation for calculating future worth, an INFINITE supply of money is needed. Ergo, a portion of debtors will DEFAULT simply because enough money can never exist to pay all outstanding usury. Money is a dead thing that cannot reproduce. This is one of the reasons why usury was condemned for 3500 years (or more). To compound matters, the money token is a variable, not a constant, making measurements questionable, as well as any predictions based on such units.

The most blatant example of insanity is the scarcity of money tokens, which voids the claim that “inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods.” Billionaires are not bidding up the price for milk, shoes, nor gasoline. As anyone can observe, unmet need, unemployment, underemployment, closed factories, closed retail outlets are evidence of a money drought, since no one has “enough money.”

Another illustration of madness that the masses have embraced - - -
We are told that despite only 1.3 trillion dollar bills in circulation, there is outstanding debt of 19+ trillion dollars (public) and 145.8 trillion dollar bills (private), versus a net worth of 123.8 trillion dollar bills.
(Based on coining all the world’s gold bullion, it would amount to $112 billion dollars, pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792 - far too little to be used as a medium of exchange, let alone pay off the debt)

Added to that nonsense, there are people blithely claiming that asteroids have minerals worth trillions and quadrillions of “dollar bills” (that do not exist).
You cannot measure when the “yardstick” is not long enough.

But don't tell that to "money mad" billions on this planet.
They're too busy "making money" to stop and think.

[Carmody]

Money supply is falsely inflated at the creation end for the usury creators and their cohorts ...and then shortened in supply at the public end, which simultaneously creates & maintains usury or a prison state ---for the average human.

It's a control structure designed from the ground up .... to be just our of sight of the average person's cognitive range.

When the pressure of shifts and changes gets intense it naturally contracts at the street level, like a slaver checking and tightening chains on slaves, when the boat shifts or the ground rumbles. Never know, they might break free, so tighten that grip....

[Carmody]

Posted by PRAY PEACE (here)
Humanity's parallel civilization operates (dysfunctionally at the moment...) on a hybrid barter type of system. Since it was initially established ~100 years ago in parallel with the topsider civilization's Federal Reserve, both systems have reached a point where a hard reset is required. Since the ultimate goal is to integrate the two civilizations, their respective economies will also be integrated after the war.

I want the son of a bitch who fed himself in his little sociopath ways when this came up. I want the war mongering sociopaths who made this mess, in front of me. The ones who fed themselves and did not enact functional corrections, corrections which would have limited the damage and simultaneously informed and educated the public in the necessary ways --so that the carnage would have been eased through the motion and the final acts.

It is that blind sided self feeding which has caused so much damage. It is that lack of self control in that grouping which is primarily responsible for this mess.


Life without lessons is a waste of life. Hard lessons can be a life well lived, and added in as a fundamental, can make a case for a functional counterpoint. However, when balance is violated and shifted into overt damage, therein comes the problem. Tis' a fine line and the trick is to ride it's back like Occam's Razor. And that, we are not seeing here. And that... for those who know, for those informed in it, yet continue ...comes price.

[Justplain]

Ozmirage, i have to dispell some confusion here.

Firstly, an object or service only has an economic value if someone is willing to pay for it, and it is only worth what somone is willing to pay. A pet rock is not worth a nickel if no one is willing to pay a nickel for it. Usury or interest rates fall into this category, its a matter of what someone is willing to pay.

The valuation of assets in the economy is not a direct function of the 'printed' money in circulation. It is valued at what someone paid for it, usually. That payment can be made in currency, or stocks, or the exchange of other assets. An exception in valuation (as per financial statements) would be when an estimate is accepted by the investment community, such as the valuation estimate of in-ground oil supply for an oil company, which is usually based upon geologists' estimate for recoverable reserves. This estimate is only useful if the oil is actually extracted.

So, generally, when financial statements claim an asset value for a company or person, the valuation can be financed from non cash sources and the value may be an estimate.

NASA's estimate of the value for minerals in the asteroid belt is just that, an estimate. It is worthless until someone can get out there and retrieve it and bring it to a market where it can be sold. Most people realize this is just 'talk' in order for the space agency to obtain funding.

Regarding money supply, the way cash in circulation can affect the economy is what's called the 'multiplier effect', last i heard that factor is 7. What happens is the central bank issues a hundred dollars which is loaned to retail bank X who lends $95 to person A (the bank has to keep $5 to meet its cash reserves requirements). Person A hires person B for a task and pays them the $95. Person B then deposits the cash in retail bank Y who then lends $90 to person C (keeping $5 on reserve), who spends it all.... and so on. Therefore, a $100 issued by the central bank has an economic impact of @$700 (or whatever that works out to).

This is the logic behind using money supply to stimulate the economy. 'Quantitative Easing' uses this principal. To slow the economy the reverse logic works, so for every $100 the central bank takes out of circulation, the economy shrinks by $700.

Secondly, national debt is money a federal government actually borrows from the capital markets. This is not a fictitious number. Where the problem, and scam in my opinion, arises is that federal governments dont get credit for when the money supply increases to support a growing economy. Instead, the central bank issues it and lends it out at cheap rates to retail banks which then lend it to the federal governments at a higher rate. If the federal government was able to take credit for that money supply increase, it could use it to pay down its accumulated deficit. As long as the government balanced its budget, it could dig its way out of its debt burden.

They say that Lincoln in the US wanted to issue currency out of the Treasury department instead of through a central bank, and that one of the reasons he was killed was to stop this from happening. A similar situation may have been a factor in the death of Kennedy, too.


Thirdly, the biggest problem with the current capitalist system, in my opinion, is that the public gets convinced through advertising and 'keeping up with the Joneses' that they need all these gadgets, toys and trinkets. If they werent so hell bent on 'have it all, and have it now', people and governments, wouldnt be so overwhelmed with overwork and over borrowing in pursuit of unsustainable lifestyles.

My hope is that technology advances to the extent where people can cheaply live comfortably in a more independent manner, more 'off the grid', and with their basic needs met, people might become less consumption and status driven. Perhaps they'd spend more time on their consciousness, etc., and the pursuit of money would diminish.

One can only hope.

[Ines]

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
The only way we will be able to do this is through trust, responsibility, and consideration. As long as people are divided, we will never see the light of this day.

We are so against each other that we actually allow ourselves to be ruled and governed by “Paper”. What’s more discouraging than this is the fact that “paper” is now being replaced with imaginary paper (electronic cash/credit).
We are simply not committed to the prosperity of the species…just the individual. Hardly anyone here even entertains the idea, so we can’t really expect much from the masses. When we are often seen dwelling on the negatives… instead of using the positives to fashion a remedy…how do we progress? When societies are fooled into operating out of debt, while spending more time working than being with family…the future can only be the complete opposite of what Start Trek is displaying.
The potential is there; however, we’ll never meet it because we’re trained to be overly competitive, too sensitive to criticism, possess blind arrogance, encourage egocentric tendencies, becomes envious with ease, too frightened to sacrifice, and ALWAYS confused (purposely) with unimportant matters.

Life is easy (observe all the other Earthy creatures). We struggle ONLY because of our division. As long as we stay at odds…we all lose.
When there are “Law” companies and Libraries filled with thousands and thousands of books giving rules to how to live….we are exercising in being losers. Because standards are made by those with limits.

Peace

I´m a 100% with you.

BUT there is a BIG OBSTACLE in front of us. We haven´t found the way to controll or put out of our way This "thing". That sector of "human like" figures that live among us; the ones IN POWER; Sychopaths controlling all Humanity. They are filled with GREED and ARROGANCE and their USURY techniques to hold down a slaved humanity who don´t agree with them. They are so free of emotion and human empathy, they don´t think twice to use murder, genocide, and all other resources to make way for their interests.

So... THAT is our real problem. They would NEVER allowed whatever changes we might think necessary in order to live in peace. And don´t think they are going to "disappear" from our Society, for thousands of years; maybe WE are intended to disappear from Earth, our own humanity, our emotions and sensitivities work for them... and they know it.

Ines

[Peace of Mind]

Posted by Justplain (here)
In the barter network i investigated a few years ago, each person who did work for, or provided goods to, another network member, was given credit of a certain amount. This credit could be exchanged for other goods or services. I believe the network provided an exchange rate of what a good or service was worth in the system. When the exchange rate is equitable you can get a workable arrangement.

I believe for this kind of arrangement to work on a grander scale than just on a local community level, advanced tech is probably needed, such as zero point energy and highly effective 3D printers. This tech would create such added wealth with only marginal extra human effort that a barter system could flourish, permitting people to live independently, comfortably and in harmony with nature.

We are the problem and the solution. Problems we created by “allowing” these things to happen through our ignorance.

Today, as we become more aware of this unnerving truth…some of us rather pretend the answer is a mystery. There is no easy way to remedy the situation…as it took a lot of years of deceitful tactics and brain washing to stabilize it. The masses are ruled by the “few” because we were conditioned to trust and believe in them. As generation come and go through this same system…a sense of hopelessness and regularity is maintained. Society believes this is the way life should be and there is nothing we can do about it. to be honest... I find it weird that billions of people are so afraid and unorganized to weed out the few bad apples. Fear that exist and is only driven by a lack of trust in others to do their part, to have their back, to speak up and stand up. Now imagine If we all (or even most of us) actually said enough is enough…

THEY is only a cowardly few operating behind the scenes. WE are the populace waiting on our brothers and sisters to acknowledge the issues and help to solve them. I’m sure the police, military and most authority figures will side with the people…but only when the people show them the error of their ways. We are in a better position than we think…but when the police/military become fully mechanical/robotic…it may be too late.

We have to recognized that we are being divided in many ways (purposely), this buys time for the oppressors to implement better control strategies. It is why I’m so adamant and focused on the more pressing issues, I can easily see the distractions and have no fear speaking out on it. When an audience/group is placed in a mode of stagnation and confusion…you best believe it’s was intentional.

So never allow yourself to be inactive in your short span of existence here. Never let someone rob you of your courage to tool in your legacy. If you’re finding yourself idled, waiting, contemplating (most of the time)….you are most likely being manipulated in to that position. It’s easy to see this…if you’re honest with yourself. Just ask your very being why are you inactive? what is making me not play my part? what am I doing with most of my time? What have I’ve achieved/gained of importance to my life (humanity) during this time of inertia? We can win..but are we truly making that attempt to do so? Until we get focused, we will continue the path of sorrow and dismay. Continue to talk about the issues instead of solving them. We are just filling each other up with grief, but I usually choose to not indulge in it unless I'm pointing out how its becoming a distraction. I'm still a bit amazed at how unwelcoming my contributions on the matter has become. But I'll continue to push on...and fight for mine and our freedoms... in the ways I know how.

Peace

[ozmirage]

I did not wish to digress too much from the original post about Star Trek Moneyless system.

Let's refresh our notions.
Prosperity is based on production, equitable trade, and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services.
Money has nothing to do with prosperity.
A mountain of money is useless if there is nothing to buy in the marketplace. (Gilligan's Island scenario)
Likewise, if everyone has "more money than they can ever spend" and won't go to work "for money" then civilization collapses, despite everyone being "wealthy."
Money mad people won't work unless they "need money" illustrates what is wrong.

Posted by Justplain (here)
Ozmirage, i have to dispell some confusion here.

Firstly, an object or service only has an economic value if someone is willing to pay for it, and it is only worth what somone is willing to pay. A pet rock is not worth a nickel if no one is willing to pay a nickel for it. Usury or interest rates fall into this category, its a matter of what someone is willing to pay.

Your argument fits well with money madness, alas.

"Economic value" denominated ONLY in money tokens is evidence of insanity. (money madness)

If 160 million producers barter / trade with 160 million other producers, and no money changes hands,WHAT ECONOMIC VALUE WAS TRADED?
Zero money changed hands.
"OOPS".
How about 320 million man days of labor? Or evaluate in terms of tons of potatoes fried and served? Backrubs given?
"DANG".


Conversely, if a money drought impairs trade so there is unmet need, unemployment, and unused productive facilities, why are we still using the argument that there's too much money chasing too few goods causing inflation?
Barking mad!

Of course, scarcity of money tokens is vital to drive demand for credit, thus enriching the usurers (abominations).

USURY has been denounced for "only" 3500 years. Why?
Usury is mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system.
A Brief History of Interest | AMI (American Monetary Institute)
http://www.monetary.org/a-brief-hist...terest/2010/12

Posted by Justplain (here)
The valuation of assets in the economy is not a direct function of the 'printed' money in circulation. It is valued at what someone paid for it, usually. That payment can be made in currency, or stocks, or the exchange of other assets. An exception in valuation (as per financial statements) would be when an estimate is accepted by the investment community, such as the valuation estimate of in-ground oil supply for an oil company, which is usually based upon geologists' estimate for recoverable reserves. This estimate is only useful if the oil is actually extracted.

So, generally, when financial statements claim an asset value for a company or person, the valuation can be financed from non cash sources and the value may be an estimate.

NASA's estimate of the value for minerals in the asteroid belt is just that, an estimate. It is worthless until someone can get out there and retrieve it and bring it to a market where it can be sold.
[MISSING THE POINT - it can't be sold - the money does not exist!]

Most people realize this is just 'talk' in order for the space agency to obtain funding.

MINOR QUIBBLE : NOTES "dollar bills" are not money. See USCON. Congress can coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money. Paper notes (IOUs) are not money, by law.

And if a money token system is not proportional in value with the marketplace of goods and services, SOMEONE MUST BE CHEATED / ROBBED or can't otherwise trade.
That's not a good thing.

The function of any money token is to PASS VALUE to a future trade.
If the supply / value of money is not proportional with the marketplace, TRADE BREAKS DOWN.
Ditto, if money is hoarded / taken out of circulation.

But the fact remains, the alleged outstanding debt is several orders of magnitude greater than the supply of "current monies." Which means when the "music stops" there are not enough "chairs."

Posted by Justplain (here)
Regarding money supply, the way cash in circulation can affect the economy is what's called the 'multiplier effect', last i heard that factor is 7. What happens is the central bank issues a hundred dollars which is loaned to retail bank X who lends $95 to person A (the bank has to keep $5 to meet its cash reserves requirements). Person A hires person B for a task and pays them the $95. Person B then deposits the cash in retail bank Y who then lends $90 to person C (keeping $5 on reserve), who spends it all.... and so on. Therefore, a $100 issued by the central bank has an economic impact of @$700 (or whatever that works out to).

This is the logic behind using money supply to stimulate the economy. 'Quantitative Easing' uses this principal. To slow the economy the reverse logic works, so for every $100 the central bank takes out of circulation, the economy shrinks by $700.

Secondly, national debt is money a federal government actually borrows from the capital markets. This is not a fictitious number. Where the problem, and scam in my opinion, arises is that federal governments dont get credit for when the money supply increases to support a growing economy. Instead, the central bank issues it and lends it out at cheap rates to retail banks which then lend it to the federal governments at a higher rate. If the federal government was able to take credit for that money supply increase, it could use it to pay down its accumulated deficit. As long as the government balanced its budget, it could dig its way out of its debt burden.

They say that Lincoln in the US wanted to issue currency out of the Treasury department instead of through a central bank, and that one of the reasons he was killed was to stop this from happening. A similar situation may have been a factor in the death of Kennedy, too.

We're all victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry, so it's not surprising that we're fooled.

Since 1933, there has been no money in circulation. Do not believe me - go read the law.
"Dollar bills" are IOUs. Worse, they've been repudiated since 1933 and are worthless. They are NOT fiat. They ARE legal tender on obligated parties on the note.
Pursuant to 12 USC Sec. 411, the USGOV is an obligated party.
Can you guess how 320 million "human resources" became obligated?
Hint: "Contribution" means equal liability in paying a claim.
Hint hint : Federal Insurance CONTRIBUTIONS Act of 1935 did not create an insurance program. It's a "tax and bribe" program.

Posted by Justplain (here)
Thirdly, the biggest problem with the current capitalist system, in my opinion, is that the public gets convinced through advertising and 'keeping up with the Joneses' that they need all these gadgets, toys and trinkets. If they werent so hell bent on 'have it all, and have it now', people and governments, wouldnt be so overwhelmed with overwork and over borrowing in pursuit of unsustainable lifestyles.

My hope is that technology advances to the extent where people can cheaply live comfortably in a more independent manner, more 'off the grid', and with their basic needs met, people might become less consumption and status driven. Perhaps they'd spend more time on their consciousness, etc., and the pursuit of money would diminish.

One can only hope.

The USA has been socialist since 1933.
BTW - so-called "capitalists" - banks and corporations are not capitalism. True capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, an endowed right. Bankers / usurers and corporations are creatures of government, exercising a revenue taxable privilege.

Coincidentally, banks and corporations co-exist with communism, which abolishes private property.

Velocity of money?

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.45 trillion in circulation as of April 6, 2016, of which $1.4 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
($4,375 per capita )

{If you have a "fat" IRA or stock account, don't expect to be able to "cash out." The cash does not exist.}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_U...federal_budget
● 2015 Federal Budget $3.58 trillion (expenditures)
● 2015 Federal Deficit $ 438.9 billion (borrowed)
● . . . versus . . .
● $1.4 trillion in circulation.

For the government to SPEND 3.58 trillion, with only 1.4 trillion circulating means the whole money supply cycled 2.55 times through the government.
VAROOM.
And out of the 1.4 trillion, $0.438 trillion was BORROWED, at usury, by the government.
31% of the circulating money was BORROWED.
CRA-ZEE

Or worse, CONgress is paying interest with BORROWED funds.
● 2015 Debt Service $252 billion (estimate) versus
● 2015 Federal Deficit $ 438.9 billion (borrowed)

Didn't Bernie Madoff go to jail for doing that in the private sector?

(You don't even want to think about the 19+ trillion dollar debt. To pay it off would require freezing it, and taking all the world's mined gold for the next 7000 years.)

Money Madness
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...-Money-Madness

Fractional Reserve Banking is NOT fraud
http://www.thedailybell.com/editoria...-is-Not-Fraud/

In short, what we're taught to believe is money, isn't.
We're tricked into underwriting "bad checks" kited by a bankrupt Congress.
We're perpetually indebted to abominable usurers.
Our fractional coin has been counterfeit since 1965.
And clause 4, 14th amendment forbids challenging the validity of the public debt despite the obvious fraud.
If that's not madness, what else is it?

[Justplain]

Hi Ozmirage, a few notes on your diatribe:
1) an object only has value if someone is willing to pay for it: paying has to do with havingvsomething to exchange, be it barter or currency. This has nothing to do with your 'money madness' but whether 2 people are willing to trade.
2) the value of currency: it really doesnt matter whether you believe that american currency is worthless, it has value because people assign it value. Period. Germany's currency had no 'value' after WW2 because no one had faith in it.
3) Asset valuation: obviously you are completely confused about asset valuation. Again, it has very little to do with money in curculation, i gave several examples of why in the previous post. The marketplace understands this and whatever notions you have to the contrary have no basis. A real concern is overextended governments and households who borrow beyond their ability to repay. So when you confusedly argue about not enough money supply you totally miss the point about debt.

[Mike Gorman]

Money as an expression of energy-because all food is simply solar energy focused and acting on chemistry-until we manage to produce abundant energy via Fusion (as in Star Trek where they have cracked the fusion problem) we have the situation where power blocs in our societies Own the means of production, and therefore can hold everyone else to ransom. This whole question of money is the abstract layer of energy hording-we can re-configure how we divide energy among us all-but this has failed up to now. Marx identified the mechanics of tyranny, but neglected to provide a solution, in his own words philosophers have merely described the problem, the point is to change it.

[ozmirage]

Posted by Justplain (here)
Hi Ozmirage, a few notes on your diatribe:
1) an object only has value if someone is willing to pay for it: paying has to do with having vsomething to exchange, be it barter or currency. This has nothing to do with your 'money madness' but whether 2 people are willing to trade.

2) the value of currency: it really doesnt matter whether you believe that american currency is worthless, it has value because [money mad] people assign it value. Period. Germany's currency had no 'value' after WW2 because no one had faith in it.

3) Asset valuation: obviously you are completely confused about asset valuation. Again, it has very little to do with money in curculation, i gave several examples of why in the previous post. The marketplace understands this and whatever notions you have to the contrary have no basis.

4) A real concern is overextended governments and households who borrow beyond their ability to repay. So when you confusedly argue about not enough money supply you totally miss the point about debt.

Are you sure you mean "diatribe?"
DIATRIBE - a bitter or violent criticism or attack; denunciation.
I can't find "bitter" or "violent" in my posts. Are you just kidding?

1) If you missed my point, I will restate it. The FINITE amount of money tokens THROTTLES trade because people presume that they can only trade via that scarce commodity. Due to scarcity, TRADE has been hampered. Whereas BARTER is unlimited, not constrained by money madness.

Due to money madness, there is an inexplicable situation :
[] Unmet need / demand,
[] unemployed / underemployed people,
[] closed factories, retailers, industries.

If one inquires as to the cause of this dilemma, most would answer: “Not enough money!”

I would think that an unemployed worker is WILLING TO TRADE, to fulfill UNMET NEED, but cannot because -wait for it- NOT ENOUGH MONEY IS IN CIRCULATION.


2) It is not a "belief." It's the law.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...al-tender.aspx
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves..."

That's legal speak for "no par value." Worthless.

3) Perhaps my lack of money madness makes it appear that I have no comprehension of asset valuation.
But if asset valuation does not have any correlation to money in circulation, it is entirely FRAUDULENT.

To illustrate:
We're playing MONOPOLY, and you wish to trade your Boardwalk and Park Place, complete with HOTELS, for $200,000,000.00 (Mono money)
I concur that it has an asset valuation of $200,000,000.00. But can I buy it?
The game does not come with paper money in that value. The trade cannot complete.

So unless there exists sufficient money tokens with which to buy it, the ASSET VALUATION is BOGUS.

Which supports my claim that money madness blurs our reason so that we accept nonsense as reasonable.

4) In case you were unaware, usury was and is an abomination, denounced for "only" 3500 years. So it is not unreasonable that debtors are [censored].

And when one owes a sum of money greater than the sum of money in existence, it is indeed MADNESS.

If you think it is reasonable to have a public debt, in excess of 19 trillion dollars (not dollar bills) that require 950+ billion ounces of gold stamped into coin to repay, while the world supply of gold bullion is a mere 5.6 billion ounces, then we will have to agree to disagree.

(And frankly, what did CONgress borrow to rack up such a debt? Not gold dollars, for sure!)

And based on the 1.4 trillion dollar bills in circulation, how can sane people make ASSET EVALUATIONS and DEBT COMPUTATIONS far in excess of that sum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ..._United_States
". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."

You can call me all sorts of names, but money madness isn't one of them.

You cannot have "asset evaluation" of 269.6 trillion -and-
debts of 145.8 trillion -with only- 1.4 trillion in circulation... (in dollar bills, with no par value, no less!)

To believe in that means one is BARKING MAD.

I rest my case.

[turiya]

Are you sure you mean "diatribe?"
DIATRIBE - a bitter or violent criticism or attack; denunciation.
I can't find "bitter" or "violent" in my posts.

Full Definition of diatribe:

1. archaic : a prolonged discourse
2. a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing
3. ironic or satirical criticism
SOURCE: Merriam-Webster

I believe the first definition is what was meant.

[Justplain]

Hi Ozmirage, by 'diatribe' i meant long discourse, not anything more sinister. I respect your right to freedom of expression and to hold your own view.

In response to your points, and trying to get back on the topic of this thread:

1) Money supply, or more like lack of it, has been linked to economic downturns, no doubt. I believe Milton Friedman, the nobel laureat economist, identified multiple recessions in US history linked to money shortage that he believed the government could have averted.

In the context of a no money economy as described in star trek, the demand for goods is met by technology that produces what is needed. That scenario is not yet feasible here, but as stated in an earlier post in this thread, if new technology continues to emerge like zero point energy and 3D printers, then we may be closer to realizing that goal. In this scenario, supply matches demand and no need for currency.

2) US currency valuation: your info just confirms my contention that american fiat notes only have 'value' because people assign it value. It may be worthless paper according to the law, but people 'prize' it, so it has value, just as 'credits' would in a barter network. Case in point is the valueless german mark after WW2, no value cuz no one believed it had any.

In star trek economy terms, we never got exposed in the series to the complexities of a national economy, and how that would work, although i believe Deep Space 9 had some kind of galactic currency i believe. I think that in any case these currencies are 'fiat' because they only have value if the trading participants see it as such, so it doesnt matter if the currency is 'backed' by something because if no one values the 'backing' commodity then what is the currency worth? If gold was as abundant as limestone who would value it highly?

A currency has value if people have confidence in it, period.

3) Asset valuation: as stated earlier in this thread, assets on the market can be traded by cash or asset swaps or by issuing corporate stocks or bonds. Only cash is dependent on money in circulation. Other asset valuation is done via estimates, such as in-ground mineral wealth. Bonds (iou's between companies) are called commercial paper. All these methods of exchanging asset values without cash are used to bypass lack of available currency .

A way the central bank helps the process is by the overnight settlement process, where banks that have lent out more cash than they are permitted by deposit reserve requirements borrow the needed cash from the central bank.

From a star trek viewpoint, this type of asset valuation will probably have some continued use for mega ptojects, etc. I think asset valuation on a personal level may not have much meaning if all your personal need requirements for food, housing, health care, education and entertainment are provided at no 'cost', what is the need for amassing wealth?

4) Usury: i can understand the concerns of overcharging interest on loaned money. Again, to me, if regulated properly, interest is a cost of doing business. Otherwise, an individual or company may not obtain the assets they desire. I think that borrowing money is a personal choice.

To me, 'madness' arises when one borrows more than one can reasonably hope to repay, like our governments and many households. Then one becomes a debt slave, as seen in Greece, or where many western governments are headed.

In star trek, i dont believe individuals take on debt since everything is provided by the state and the technology. Obviosly large projects that the technology cant quickly provide for, have to be organized to produce for, such as building a city, space station or starship. This would probably involve some sort of budgeting and financing. But at that level i believe they would be state owned and controlled.

So that leads us to the problem of oversight. As in star trek and current times, the persons making the decisions on resource allocations is a key factor. I never saw star trek address this issue clearly, star fleet was set up on a military/corporate model of top down authority, with obedience of underlings being key to operations. I can see some necessity for that in organized activities, but it only works well with well informed and ethical leadership.

As current times show, we now need our government oversight to be ethical and accountable, and subject to democratic oversight, not controlled by special interest groups with self-serving agendas. I believe this is the great issue of currents times, making our governments accountable to the interests of common people. How we deal with this now will determine how the star trek society of the future deals with it. I believe we are smart and well educated enough to get the job done.