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  1. Link to Post #341
    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)

    Angela Merkel says EU WILL approve PM's short Brexit delay - but only if her deal is passed
    What kind of sense does that make ?

    These people are talking ever increasingly MontyPython lingo. If parliament votes for Theresa May's dodgy deal ( godelpus if they do ), we won't need an extention.

    But anyway, I'm lost. These recent comments are talking about a no deal exit again. I thought parliament had voted to block that. If we are facing a no deal exit, we are still on track.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    May's appeal falls flat as EU seizes control of Brexit date
    The Guardian Daniel Boffey, Heather Stewart and Jennifer Rankin,The Guardian

    The EU has handed Theresa May two weeks’ grace to devise an alternative Brexit plan if her deal falls next week after the prime minister failed to convince the bloc that she was capable of avoiding a no-deal Brexit.

    After a marathon late-night session of talks, the EU’s leaders ripped up May’s proposals and a new Brexit timeline was pushed on the prime minister to avoid the cliff-edge deadline of 29 March – next Friday.

    Under the deal agreed by May, Britain will now stay a member state until 12 April if the withdrawal agreement is rejected by MPs at the third time of asking.

    The government will be able to seek a longer extension during that period if it can both “indicate a way forward” and agree to hold European elections.

    In the unlikely event that May does win the support of the Commons when the Brexit deal goes to MPs again on Tuesday, the UK will stay a member state until 22 May to allow necessary withdrawal legislation to be passed.

    “The 12 April is the new 29 March,” an EU official said.

    Donald Tusk, the European council president, told reporters in a late-night press conference that he had several meetings through the evening to secure May’s agreement.

    He said: “What this means in practice is that, until that date, all options will remain open, and the cliff-edge date will be delayed. The UK government will still have a choice of a deal, no-deal, a long extension or revoking article 50.”

    Asked how long an extension could be on offer, the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, said: “Until the very end.”

    The French president, Emmanuel Macron, told reporters as he left the summit that the EU had acted to protect its interests in response to a “vacuum” in Westminster.

    “The EU in a very clear manner has today responded to a British political crisis,” he said. “The British politicians are incapable to put in place what their people have demanded. Their people voted for Brexit.”

    Spain’s prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, described the last-minute deal as “satisfactory for both sides” and one that would safeguard the EU’s institutions in the run-up to European elections. “As far as Spain’s concerned, it’s a good deal,” he said.

    “We’re at a critical moment in the construction of Europe,” he said. “History will judge what happens over the coming weeks. Spanish citizens in the UK and Britons in Spain need to know that the government is prepared for a disorderly exit. The EU and the Spanish government have attached amendments to the agreement. But it doesn’t depend on us any more – it depends on the British government.”

    Earlier on Thursday, May had made an address to leaders described as “90 minutes of nothing”, by sources, during which she failed to persuade the bloc that she had a plan to avoid a no-deal Brexit.

    May had been asking for an extension to article 50 until 30 June to make time for vital legislation to pass should she manage to get her deal through the Commons next week.

    But her appeal “dismally” failed to offer any answers as to what she would do if the deal was blocked by MPs again, sources said, provoking EU leaders into taking matters into their own hands and in effect taking control of her future.

    “She didn’t even give clarity if she is organising a vote,” said one aide to a leader. “Asked three times what she would do if she lost the vote, she couldn’t say. It was awful. Dreadful. Evasive even by her standards.”

    When leaders asked May what she was going to do if her deal was voted down, an official added that the prime minister replied that she was following her plan A of getting it through. It was then that the EU decided that “she didn’t have a plan so they needed to come up with one for her”, the source added.

    Special meeting of the European Council (Art. 50) (21 March 2019) – Conclusions

    1. The European Council takes note of the letter of Prime Minister Theresa May of 20 March 2019.

    2. In response, the European Council approves the Instrument relating to the Withdrawal Agreement and the Joint Statement supplementing the Political Declaration agreed between the European Commission and the government of the United Kingdom in Strasbourg on 11 March 2019.

    3. The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council.

    4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed between the Union and the United Kingdom in November 2018. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement.

    5. The European Council calls for work to be continued on preparedness and contingency at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal, taking into account all possible outcomes.

    6. The European Council will remain seized of the matter.

    With May out of the room, EU leaders delayed their plans to discuss relations with China and launched into a marathon late-night session in Brussels.

    As their talks wound on, the EU moved towards the “flextension” delay. It was then put to May by Tusk shortly after 11pm Brussels time after eight hours of talks, with and without the prime minister.

    “What this model is designed for is to make it clear that no deal is not the EU’s choice, it is the UK’s choice,” a diplomatic source said. “The prime minister is braced for a long extension, but doesn’t want to take responsibility for it,” the source said.

    The EU had initially looked at solely offering an extension up until 22 May, the day before European elections would be held, on the condition May’s deal passed next week.

    But it was a lack of confidence in the prime minister following her latest performance in front of the leaders that forced the EU’s member states to act to shore up against a no-deal Brexit and allow the British parliament time to take control.

    France and Belgium had initially pushed for an unconditional extension up to the 7 May, on the eve of the French Fête de la Victoire bank holiday, to provide a buffer to the economic shock of a no-deal Brexit. The EU is also staging a summit in the Romanian city of Sibiu on 9 May to debate the post-Brexit future of the bloc.

    Macron told the room that he did not want the chaos of a no-deal Brexit to erupt before the French went to the polls for their European elections on 26 May.

    EU sources said Macron’s “trump card” had triggered the leaders to work round the problem in a new way. “The European council worked well – and it is an elegant solution,” a source said.

    The prime minister said the EU’s decision left MPs with a clear choice: either they back her deal next week and leave smoothly on 22 May; or the government will have to return to Brussels with an alternative plan – either no deal or some unspecified alternative – in a fortnight’s time.

    May did not repeat the promise she made in the House of Commons on Wednesday that “as prime minister”, she would not countenance a longer extension, requiring the UK to participate in European elections.

    Many MPs interpreted that statement as a hint that she would step down rather than allow a longer delay. But on Thursday night she simply stressed: “I believe strongly that it would be wrong to ask people in the UK to participate in these elections three years after voting to leave the EU.”

    May also appeared to express a degree of contrition about the strident tone of her statement on Wednesday night, which caused a backlash among MPs and led to calls for her resignation.

    Related: Brexit is not the cause of Britain’s political breakdown. It’s a symptom | Gary Younge

    “Last night I expressed my frustration. I know that MPs are frustrated too. They have difficult jobs to do,” she said.

    MPs, including many of those whom the Tory whips were hoping to win over, had reacted angrily on Thursday to May’s claims that they were blocking the people’s will.

    A cross-party group of MPs is now considering how best to allow parliament to force May towards a softer Brexit or no Brexit at all. A new amendment has been laid for debate on Monday by Tory MP Sir Oliver Letwin and Labour MP Hilary Benn that would give parliament the chance to vote on ways forward.

    In Westminster, several MPs challenged the leader of the house, Andrea Leadsom, about the prime minister’s tone.

    On Thursday night, businesses and trades unions joined together to urge her to change course. In a rare joint letter, the TUC’s general secretary, Frances O’Grady, and the CBI’s Carolyn Fairbairn described the situation as a “national emergency” and called on the prime minister to seek a plan B.
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  5. Link to Post #343
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    "Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.

    The government repeatedly claims exiting the EU is 'the will of the people'. We need to put a stop to this claim by proving the strength of public support now, for remaining in the EU. A People's Vote may not happen - so vote now.

    More information or view this petition on a geographic map.

    2,728,265 signatures todate."

    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/map-shows-...203202748.html

    There has been little mention of this petition on the TV media.
    Chris

    Ps now over three million have signed this petition.
    Its just a question of wait and see what Parliament does with this--they have a legal obligation to debate this petition.
    Last edited by greybeard; 22nd March 2019 at 12:38.
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  7. Link to Post #344
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    I watched the BBC News at one and still no mention of the petition--that I noticed.
    Cant help but wonder if this inconvenient news for whoever controls the news we are given!!!
    If more people knew about it more would sign the petition.
    As far as I can see some of the areas that are showing a signing are ones that were all for exit.
    Is there a change of mind going on?
    I really suspect we are not going to leave.
    Been wrong before but if I was a gambling man I would have been down to the bookie some time ago.

    Chris

    This is the link to sign petition
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
    Last edited by greybeard; 22nd March 2019 at 14:11.
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  9. Link to Post #345
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    We were lied to! Secret document FCO 30/1048 kept truth about EU from British for 30 years
    A SECRET document, which remained locked away for 30 years, advised the British Government to COVER-UP the realities of EU membership so that by the time the public realised what was happening it would be too late.
    By Lara Deauville
    PUBLISHED: 08:01, Sat, May 12, 2018
    | UPDATED: 21:34, Sat, May 12, 2018

    Almost all of the shocking predictions – from the loss of British sovereignty, to monetary union and the over-arching powers of European courts – have come true.

    But damningly for Tory Prime Minister Edward Heath, and all those who kept quiet about the findings in the early 70s, the document, known as FCO30/1048, was locked away under Official Secrets Act rules for almost five decades.

    The classified paper, dated April 1971, suggested the Government should keep the British public in the dark about what EEC membership means predicting that it would take 30 years for voters to realise what was happening by which time it would be too late to leave.

    That last detail was the only thing the disgraceful paper – prepared for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) – got wrong.


    The document, known as FCO30/1048, was locked away under Official Secrets Act rules GETTY

    The unknown author – a senior civil servant – correctly predicted the then European Economic Community (the EEC effectively became the EU in 1993) was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty since 1066.

    He went on to say “Community law” would take precedence over our own courts and that ever more power would pass away from Parliament to the bureaucratic system centred in Brussels.

    The author even accurately asserts that the increased role of Brussels in the lives of the British people would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from Government”.


    But shockingly politicians were advised “not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures… to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community”.


    Prime Minister Edward Heath kept quiet about the findings in the early 70s GETTY

    They were told to preserve the impression that the British Government was still calling the shots rather than an unelected body of foreign politicians – and that the ruse would last “for this century at least” – by which time Britain would be so completely chained to Brussels it would be impossible to leave.

    Document FCO30/1048, which has now been declassified under the 30-year rule, still shocks and angers Brexiteers.

    Annabelle Sanderson, a Brexit expert and former advisor to Nigel Farage said:
    “Despite all the claims from politicians of many parties that the EU was not about becoming a central state this 1971 document shows that is exactly what the plan was.

    “Arch Remoaners from Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories need to check this out and ask themselves why they are MPs if they don’t actually want Westminster to be in charge of this country.

    “We voted for Brexit what needs to happen is a proper clean break from Brussels so we can once again become a sovereign nation with money being spent in this country on services we need and have Parliament and courts making and ruling on the laws.”

    Document FCO30/1048 still shocks and angers Brexiteers GETTY

    The writer and journalist Christopher Booker, one of the founders of the satirical magazine Private Eye, said: “Here was a civil servant advising that our politicians should connive in concealing what Heath was letting us in for, not least in hiding the extent to which Britain would no longer be a democratic country but one essentially governed by unelected and unaccountable officials.
    “One way to create an illusion that this system was still democratic, this anonymous mandarin suggested, would be to give people the chance to vote for new representatives at European, regional and local levels.

    “A few years later, we saw the creation of an elected European Parliament – as we see today a craze for introducing elected mayors, as meaningless local figureheads.”
    The pro-Europe Sir Edward Heath was leader of the Conservative Party from 1965 to 1975.

    He died in 2005.

    In 2015 he was named as part of Wiltshire Police’s Operation Conifer investigation into historical child sex abuse.

    Detectives said if alive – he would have been 101 – he would have been interviewed under caution over seven claims, including the alleged rape of an 11-year-old, but that no inference of guilt should be drawn from this.

    Operation Conifer was closed earlier this year after officers found "no corroborating evidence" of any sexual abuse by Sir Edward and no evidence of a conspiracy.

    Heath, a soft-right politician from a lower middle-class family, was born in Broadstairs, Kent.

    He served though the Second World War in the Royal Artillery, rising to rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.

    Although he said he had never killed anyone he was part of the Normandy Landings in 1944 and wrote extensively of the damage his gunners inflicted on the German occupying forces.

    In September 1945 he also commanded a firing squad that executed a Polish soldier convicted of rape and murder.

    He was made a Knight of the Garter on 23 April 1992 and became Sir Edward Heath.


    Related:
    Last edited by Hervé; 22nd March 2019 at 13:59.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    All true Herve but we were also lied to blatantly by those politicians who wanted us to leave.
    Scotland is perhaps more affected by leaving that England.
    There would be tremendous collateral damage to many Scottish businesses if the UK gets brexit.

    Chris
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  13. Link to Post #347
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    "Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.

    The government repeatedly claims exiting the EU is 'the will of the people'. We need to put a stop to this claim by proving the strength of public support now, for remaining in the EU. A People's Vote may not happen - so vote now.

    More information or view this petition on a geographic map.

    2,728,265 signatures todate."

    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/map-shows-...203202748.html

    There has been little mention of this petition on the TV media.
    Chris

    Ps now over three million have signed this petition.
    Its just a question of wait and see what Parliament does with this--they have a legal obligation to debate this petition.
    Thank you for the informative post Herve.

    Brexit is a mess. Parliament can debate the petition till the cows come home. The fact is 17.410.742 British citizens voted to leave the E.U. and I was one of them

    I also voted for an independent Scotland because I do not want Scotland to be ruled by Westminster. I am just as passionate not to be ruled from Brussels. Independence means independent and not ruled by the EU globalists. SNP have lost my respect with this Brexit farce.

    If the petition reaches 18 million then they should seriously debate it. Until then, listen to the people who already voted to leave.
    When you express from a fearful heart in the now moment, You create a fearful future.
    When you express from a loving heart in the now moment, You create a loving future.

    Have no fear, Be aware and live your lives journey from a compassionate caring nurturing heart to manifest a compassionate caring nurturing future. Billyji


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  15. Link to Post #348
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Brexit is about to 'destroy' the Tory Party and Theresa May, says Michael Portillo
    Yahoo News UK Jane Howdle,Yahoo News UK


    Prime Minister Theresa May giving a statement about Brexit at the European Leaders’ summit in Brussels yesterday (PA)

    The latest Brexit developments will “destroy” the Conservative Party, Michael Portillo has warned.

    Speaking on the BBC1 politics show This Week, the former deputy leader of the Conservatives said there was no chance Mrs May’s deal would get past MPs.

    He also insisted that no-deal was off the table – but the prospect of revoking Article 50 and stopping Brexit was equally unlikely.
    Michael Portillo (PA)

    Instead, he painted a particularly gloomy picture for the Tory Party in his predictions for the coming weeks.

    He said: “I think Parliament will try to take over the process – Parliament may well succeed. What emerges from that will be unacceptable to Mrs May.

    “Mrs May will resign before April 12 and, before April 12, an interim leader of the Conservative Party – I suppose it would be David Lidington, the deputy prime minister will say he will want to explore with the EU an alternative.”


    He added: “Maybe something has emerged by then from the House of Commons, like the Norway option, and therefore we need a long extension

    “As a result of all of that there will be a sort of outbreak of peace between us and the European Union – and absolutely mayhem in the Conservative party.”

    He later added: “It’s not going to be ‘No deal’ and it’s not going to be revocation [of Article 50]. So it’s got to be something in between… and it destroys the Conservative Party’

    “What will happen will be a new start under a new leader and that will take a long time.”

    If Mrs May’s deal is rejected for a third time, Parliament will have until April 12 to consider alternative options.

    But if it is accepted, Brexit will happen with a deal in place on May 22.
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  17. Link to Post #349
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    The petition discussed on Channel 4 news.
    Fastest growing petition ever--its massive.

    I dont mind what happens but it interesting to watch--the politicians evading answering honest questions.
    As I said people were sold a pig in a poke way back.

    Democracy says they should get what they voted for--they did not vote for the May deal or no deal.
    They voted for an orderly exit with loads of benefits--now even the Government experts are warning of dire consequences if we leave without a deal.
    I did not vote in the referendum.

    Chris
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    May urged to go as she hints at pulling third vote on Brexit deal
    The Guardian Jessica Elgot and Peter Walker,The Guardian

    Pressure on Theresa May has reached new heights as ministers backed attempts to let parliament take control of the next stage of the Brexit process and MPs openly speculated that her time in office could end within weeks.

    As a beleaguered May returned from Brussels, MPs suggested her deal could lose by an even higher margin, with several saying the timing now required the prime minister to “fall on her sword”.

    May wrote to Tory MPs on Friday in an attempt to address some of the criticism and regain control over the process. In her letter, she even hinted she may not bring her deal back to parliament without “sufficient support” and apologised for the tone of her statement on Wednesday night where she blamed MPs for the Brexit impasse.
    MPs had earlier suggested that it could be pointless for the prime minister to attempt to pass her deal next week, after a defiant statement by the Democratic Unionist party where they rejected the current state of negotiations. In her letter, May said the decision of the EU council meant she would bring back her deal next week “if it appears there is sufficient support and the Speaker permits it”.The prime minister said a number of colleagues had raised concerns about her speech in Downing Street on Wednesday. “You have a difficult job to do and it was not my intention to make it any more difficult,” she wrote, offering to hold more meetings with MPs next week.May will face further pressure from hundreds of thousands of members of the public expected to join the Put it to the People march in London on Saturday to demand a second referendum, after millions signed a petition to revoke article 50.

    Related: The Guardian view on the People’s Vote march: a force for good | Editorial

    Meanwhile, the EU increasingly believes a no-deal Brexit on 12 April is the most likely outcome, senior EU officials have said, prompting Emmanuel Macron, the French president, to privately ask Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, if his country could cope.

    May’s de-facto deputy, David Lidington, has held advanced talks with senior Tories and opposition MPs to explore ways MPs could be given a say on the next stage of the process. Those familiar with the talks said he appeared to be speaking with the prime minister’s authority.

    Greg Clark publicly broke ranks on Friday to say the government should keep its promise to facilitate a process to find a majority for a compromise in parliament. “There’s no reason why the government should be forced to do something that it is committed to do anyway,” the business secretary said.

    However, the mood has hardened among some of the initiative’s supporters who have lost trust in the government to decide which options should be put to MPs, and fear a “stitch-up” where options are set up to fail.

    May must start her gruelling week on Monday by making a statement to MPs on Brexit, before facing an amendable motion on the way forward.

    A key amendment, tabled by Sir Oliver Letwin, Hilary Benn and Dominic Grieve, would set aside Wednesday for MPs to take control of the House of Commons business, in order to hold the series of votes on different Brexit outcomes.

    The amendment has been rejected on previous occasions – at the last time of voting it lost by just two votes – but it has secured at least one new supporter, the Tory MP Caroline Spelman, and its backers are now confident of success. Should the amendment pass, May’s meaningful vote could be squeezed into Tuesday.

    Subsequent voting options could include the prime minister’s deal, revocation of article 50, a second referendum, a customs union deal, a deal-based single-market model nicknamed “common market 2.0”, a Canada-style agreement, or no deal.

    However, it is understood Lidington told MPs he did not want to put “unicorn” options to parliament – and in turn was urged to rule out several options including revocation, as well as a Canada-style agreement, which MPs regard as unrealistic without the Irish backstop.

    MPs also insisted May’s deal should not be put to MPs again as an option if it has been defeated for a third time.

    Labour’s Stephen Kinnock said it was “vital we only have credible and realistic options on the order paper” and that meant “no options that involve reopening the withdrawal agreement, which is well and truly sealed shut, and no options which are coming out of the blue”.

    The Liberal Democrat Norman Lamb, one of the MPs involved in the talks, said he was convinced the government should not dictate what MPs voted on and that options should be selected by the Speaker, John Bercow. “It’s essential parliament controls what we vote on,” Lamb said. “We have got to have confidence in the process that parliament can genuinely express its view.”

    Lidington is understood to have expressed some caution about letting Bercow determine which options are put to MPs, saying he “does sometimes select unicorns”, according to one source.

    There is also some disagreement as to whether MPs should vote on ballots for as many options they like, or hold rounds of voting where options are narrowed down – a system that could result in parliament sitting until the early hours of the morning.

    Jeremy Corbyn also tabled a less prescriptive amendment calling on the government to set aside time for indicative votes naming four options – Labour’s alternative, common market 2.0, a customs union and a public vote.

    The Labour leader, who has held a series of meetings with MPs including those supporting a second referendum and those backing common market 2.0, said he was “convinced that a sensible alternative deal can be agreed by parliament, be negotiated with the EU and bring the public together”.

    Ministers conceded on Friday that MPs would be likely to be given a free vote. The junior Brexit minister, Kwasi Kwarteng, said it would “be reasonable to have a wide debate in the house to find what the house would tolerate”. Rory Stewart, the prisons minister, said: “Logically speaking, if parliament is to express its view on Wednesday it should be free to express its view.

    Conservative Brexiters were seething at the prospect. Steve Baker, one of the key figures in the European Research Group of hard Brexiters, said it would be “a national humiliation”. Marcus Fysh, another Tory opponent of May’s deal, said it was “the most ludicrous, childish and unrealistic idea I have ever seen”.

    May was facing mounting pressure to name a timetable for her departure as a final gamble to win Conservative votes for her deal, though Tory sources suggested even that option may not have the desired effect.

    The prime minister met Tory MPs who had switched to back her deal on Wednesday night, where MPs in the room said the feeling was that more than half could now switch back again.

    One moderate Conservative who backed May’s deal predicted the prime minister would be gone within a month. Another MP said the party would “now do almost anything to get rid of her … If Labour called a confidence vote, it would be very interesting”.

    The MP for Clacton, Giles Watling, who had backed the deal, said its success “might require the PM to fall on her sword to get it through”.

    May was dealt a further blow to the prospects of passing her deal by a bullish statement from the Democratic Unionist party’s Westminster leader, Nigel Dodds, who called her failure to offer new proposals at the European council “disappointing and inexcusable”.

    He also hit out at May’s speech in Downing Street on Wednesday night that blamed MPs for the impasse, saying: “Lectures by the prime minister putting the blame on others cannot disguise the responsibility her government bears for the current debacle.”

    He said the DUP had had no new reassurances before the vote that would change their decision to oppose the deal. “Nothing fundamentally turns on the formal ratification of documents which the attorney general has already said do not change the risk of the UK being trapped in the backstop,” he said.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Uri Geller promises to stop Brexit using telepathy
    The Guardian


    Illusionist has told Theresa May he will ‘not allow’ her to lead Britain out of the EU

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...CppO694_hLMlpQ

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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Yea, totally agree that the original big fat con trick was with that creepy compromised child fiddling Heath way back when we first got involved with this euro stuff.

    Meanwhile, make of this whatever you will. I know some of the facts are true, but dahboo77 is a wild card alarmist at the best of times.

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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Almost 4million signed the Petition to date.
    Considering it is not that easy to find and not a front page promotion--this I suspect shows a groundswell change in attitude.
    No mention on BBC News to date, I wonder why--
    It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

    Mark Twain said something along the lines of " We would not have been given the vote if it made a difference"

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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Theresa May dismisses petition calling on her to revoke Article 50

    At a press conference in Brussels this evening, Donald Tusk said the EU had agreed an extension to Brexit to May 22 if MPs approve Theresa May's exit plan. But if MPs vote it down next week, Britain will have until April 12 to say what it will do next. At the end of the short announcement Donald Tusk was asked whether a 'special place in hell' should be reserved for Brexiteers who don't vote for May's deal. Mr Tusk responded: 'According to the pope hell is empty. It means there are a lot of spaces.' The press conference was then ended by an aide, but not before Mr Juncker shouted 'Don't go to hell.' - as the EU leaders urged Brexiteers to back Mrs May. Original Article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic... Original Video: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news...




    It would appear that people are not allowed to change their minds with new information.
    If this was the case then once a party is voted into power there is no need for further elections--democracy allows for people to change their minds.
    Going for a further referendum scares the leavers---you had your chance, you decided to leave, end of story-- The decision to leave was made in good faith--on faulty information.
    The descision to join was made in good faith on faulty information--whats new.

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 23rd March 2019 at 09:25.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Brexit march – '1 million' people join Put It To The People London rally calling for referendum revoking Article 50
    [The Independent]
    Adam Forrest, Zamira Rahim
    The Independent23 March 2019


    Brexit march – million' people join Put It To The People London rally calling for referendum revoking Article 50

    More than one million people are estimated to be taking part in the Put It To The People march in central London today, organisers have said.

    Organised by the People’s Vote, Britain for Europe and Open Britain, protesters are demanding the public be given a final say on the Brexit process.

    Campaigners seeking a second referendum started on Park Lane at midday, and many have now gathered at Parliament Square for a series of speeches.

    "Almost 4.5 million signed the petition to revoke article 50"
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    I don't mind putting a choice to the people, but certainly not a choice between bad and badder.

    We voted to get out of the eu. We didn't vote for, or were even presented with, a vote for a "deal".

    The time for deals is after we are out. That's how deals work.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    [Excerpt from para 14: "But public and political concern over “loss of sovereignty” cannot be allayed simply by setting out these technical considerations. In the public debate advocates of entry deny that sovereignty will be lost or transferred and argue that account should be take “of the effective ability of Britain’s national institutions to protect and advance the interests, domestic and external, of the British people”. They imply that sovereignty as defined above should be disregarded – considering it to have been eroded past usefulness by GATT, NATO etc and the powerlessness of the medium sized state acting alone."]

    ---------------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------------

    [Document] FCO 30/1048 (1971)
    Here is the document referred to in Hervé's post #345
    [Document] FCO 30/1048 (1971)



    Paragraph 11:

    External Sovereignty

    11. Membership of the Communities will involve us in extensive limitations upon our freedom of action. In many respects these are essentially the result of a contractual arrangement, not dissimilar in kind from other international contractual arrangements which we have e.g. in the GATT: these constitute restraints upon the exercise of sovereign powers as a result of an act entered into by virtue of our sovereign status, and they do not amount to a restriction of that status.

    But it is not correct to regard the European Community Treaties as involving solely matters of a legal significance equivalent to that of other existing treaties. For example, in matters within the Community field (see Annex) we shall be accepting an external legislature which regards itself as having direct powers of legislating with effect within the United Kingdom, even in derogation of United Kingdom statutes, and as having in certain fields exclusive legislative competence, so that our own legislature has none; in matters in which the Community has already adopted a common policy, we shall be accepting that the Commission will jointly represent the Member States, who to that extent will have their individual international negotiating powers limited; and we shall in various fields be accepting a wide degree of coordination of our policy with that of the rest of the Community.

    All of this we shall be accepting “for an unlimited period”, with no provision for withdrawal. But at the same time France or Italy for example as members of the Communities, have not come to be regarded internationally as less than sovereign states. This is particularly so since, despite the appearance of permanence of membership it is commonly recognised that the member states do still have the ultimate politcal option of renouncing membership and that the Community cannot at this stage impose its will against the firm opposition of a major member.

    In other words in practice, and in the final analysis it remains to date a cooperative venture of independent equal sovereign units and not some supernational and overriding authority. Membership would mean an increasing range of subjects on which Britain’s policy was concerted with the remainder of the Community and also that in negotiations with the rest of the world on matters forming the subject of common Community policies, there would be join representation by the Commission. The Community being exclusive in character and membership also means in practice giving up some of our important links with the remainder of the world (Commonwealth Preference for example). But overall it is clear that membership of the Community in its present form would involve only limited dimunition of external sovereignty in practice.

    If it is right to say that the question of the retention of the international status of a sovereign State is a matter of assessing in each case the degree to which a State’s external independence, equality and capacity to condut its own international relations are restricted, we could nevertheless fairly conclude that although the implications for our freedom of independent action are considerable, no substantial impairment of our international status would follow immediately upon our membership of the European Communities.The loss of external sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome “to establish the foundations of an even closer union among the European peoples”. We deal with the implications for sovereignty of such dynamic development below in paragraphs 17 to 22.


    Internal Sovereignty

    Paragraph 12:

    12. The implications of membership for Parliamentary sovereignty and for the legal system which is closely related to it, are more immediate.

    (i) By accepting the Community Treaties we shall have to admit the whole range of subsidiary law which has been made by the Communities. Not only this but we shall be making provision in advance for the unquestioned direct application (i.e. without any further participation by Parliament) of Community laws not yet made (even though Ministers would have a part, through membership of the council, in the making of some of these laws). Community law operates only in the fields covered by the Treaties, viz. customs duties; agriculture;free movement of labour; services and capital transport; monopolies and restrictive practices; state aid for industry; and the regulation of the coal and steel and nuclear energy industries. Outside this considerable range there would remain unchanged by far the greater part of our domestic law (see Annex).

    (ii) Community law is required to take precedence over domestic law: i.e. if a Community law conflicts with a statute, it is the statute which has to give way. This is something now implied in other commitments which we have entered into in the past. Previous treaties have imposed on us obligations which have required us to legislate in order the fulfil the international obligations set out in the treaty, but any discrepancy between our legislation and the treaty obligations has been solely a question of a possible breach of those international obligations: the conflicting statute has still undoubtedly been the law to be applied in this country. But the cmmunities system requires that such Community Law as applies directly as law in this country should by virtue of its own legal force as law in this country prevail over conflicting national legislation. The Law Officers have, however, concluded that while the European Community will uphold the supremacy of Community Law in its application within the United Kingdom, our Courts, if faced with a statute intended by Parliament to override Community Law, are most unlikely in the immediately foreseeable future to be restrained from giving effect to the statutue.

    (iii) The power of the European court to consider the extent to which a UK statutue is compatible with Community Law will indirectly involve an innovation for us, as the European Court’s decisions will be binding on our courts which might then have to rule on the validity or applicability of the United Kingdom statute.

    (iv) The Law Officers have emphasised that in accepting Community Law in this country we shall need to make it effective as part of a new and separate legal order, distinct from but co-existing side by side with, the law of the United Kingdom. They have referred to the basic European Communities Treaty provisions as amounting “in effect to a new body of “Federal” statute law”.


    ...and continued through here
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit
    The Guardian Michael Savage Policy editor,The Guardian 16 hours ago


    Calls for a public inquiry into Brexit are mounting among diplomats, business figures, peers and MPs, amid claims that the civil service is already planning for a future investigation into how it has been handled.

    The decision to call the referendum, the red lines drawn up by Theresa May and Britain’s negotiating strategy are all issues that senior figures would like to be examined.

    Related: Dark money is pushing for a no-deal Brexit. Who is behind it? | George Monbiot

    Bob Kerslake, the former head of the civil service, said an inquiry was needed into “the biggest humiliation since Suez, certainly since the IMF crisis [in 1976]”. The cross-party peer said he believed the civil service “is both expecting and preparing for this”.

    “We do need to understand how on earth we ended up where we have and it probably needs to go back to the decisions around holding a referendum and the way the question was framed,” he said. “It would need to be a public inquiry, probably judge-led.”

    Peter Ricketts, the former national security adviser and former head civil servant in the Foreign Office, cited the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war. “Chilcot took a long time, but it was cathartic,” he said. “The report was widely seen to have done the job and I think you can say the British system is better for it. I think the handling of Brexit has been such a failure of the process of government, with such wide ramifications, that there needs to be a searching public inquiry.

    “What advice was given to ministers? Was it taken? Did the processes of collective cabinet decision-taking work? Were the right skills available, for example on no-deal planning and all the costs involved? They are all legitimate questions for an inquiry. It should have the powers of a judicial inquiry.”

    One senior Tory peer said: “We want our Chilcot.”

    Sir Mike Rake, the former chair of BT, said: “When the dust has settled, there really should be some kind of public inquiry, looking at both the issues around holding a referendum and the context of what has happened in terms of pursuing Brexit.”

    Many figures are already pointing to May’s early decision to set out strict red lines that seriously limited Britain’s ability to negotiate. John Kerr, Britain’s former EU ambassador who drafted the article 50 process of leaving the bloc, said: “Those red lines laid down in 2016 emerged with no consultation with the country, the devolved assemblies, parliament or with the cabinet. Then there was the decision to trigger article, 50 still with no agreement in cabinet of where we wanted to end up.”

    Sir Jonathan Faull, a former senior EU official, said: “It would be surprising if the events relating to UK withdrawal from the EU were not the subject of one or more inquiries. An important initial question will be when to start. The 2015 election? The 2016 referendum? The article 50 notification? The scope ranges from Whitehall and Westminster to Belfast, Brussels and beyond.”

    There is also support in the Commons. Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, said: “The government’s handling of Brexit has been a shambles from start to finish. It was a dereliction of duty to allow the country to get to this point, days before Brexit, in danger of crashing out with no deal or trying to force parliament to accept a deal it’s already rejected twice. We will certainly need a detailed postmortem of how this all came to pass.”

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________

    Brexit
    Dark money is pushing for a no-deal Brexit. Who is behind it?


    George Monbiot


    Targeted no-deal Brexit ads are funded opaquely, yet the government has failed to bring in new laws
    @GeorgeMonbiot

    Wed 13 Feb 2019 06.00 GMT
    Last modified on Wed 13 Feb 2019
    People’s Vote campaigners record a social media message.

    ‘People’s Vote says “it’s a matter for the donors if they want to go public”.’ People’s Vote campaigners record a social media message.

    Modern governments respond to only two varieties of emergency: those whose solution is bombs and bullets, and those whose solution is bailouts for the banks. But what if they decided to take other threats as seriously?

    This week’s revelations of a catastrophic collapse in insect populations, jeopardising all terrestrial life, would prompt the equivalent of an emergency meeting of the UN security council. The escalating disasters of climate breakdown and soil loss would trigger spending at least as great as the quantitative easing after the financial crisis. Instead, politicians carry on as if nothing is amiss.

    The same goes for the democratic emergency.
    Almost everywhere trust in governments, parliaments and elections is collapsing.
    Shared civic life is replaced by closed social circles that receive entirely different, often false, information.

    The widespread sense that politics has become so corrupted that it can no longer respond to ordinary people’s needs has provoked a demagogic backlash that in some countries begins to slide into fascism. But despite years of revelations about hidden spending, fake news, front groups and micro-targeted ads on social media, almost nothing has changed.
    re

    In Britain, for example, we now know that the EU referendum was won with the help of widespread cheating.

    We still don’t know the origins of much of the money spent by the leave campaigns.
    For example, we have no idea who provided the £435,000 channelled through Scotland, into Northern Ireland, through the coffers of the Democratic Unionist party and back into Scotland and England, to pay for pro-Brexit ads.
    Nor do we know the original source of the £8m that Arron Banks delivered to the Leave.EU campaign.

    We do know that both of the main leave campaigns have been fined for illegal activities, and that the conduct of the referendum has damaged many people’s faith in the political system. But, astonishingly, the government has so far failed to introduce a single new law in response to these events.
    And now it’s happening again.

    Since mid-January an organisation called Britain’s Future has spent £125,000 on Facebook ads demanding a hard or no-deal Brexit.
    Most of them target particular constituencies. Where an MP is deemed sympathetic to the organisation’s aims, the voters who receive these ads are urged to tell him or her to “remove the backstop, rule out a customs union, deliver Brexit without delay”.
    Where the MP is deemed unsympathetic, the message is: “Don’t let them steal Brexit; Don’t let them ignore
    your vote.”

    So who or what is Britain’s Future? Sorry, I have no idea.
    As open Democracy points out, it has no published address and releases no information about who founded it, who controls it and who has been paying for these advertisements. The only person publicly associated with it is a journalist called Tim Dawson, who edits its website.
    Dawson has not yet replied to the questions I have sent him. It is, in other words, highly opaque.
    The anti-Brexit campaigns are not much better.
    People’s Vote and Best for Britain have also been spending heavily on Facebook ads, though not as much in recent weeks as Britain’s Future.

    At least we know who is involved in these remain campaigns and where they are based, but both refuse to reveal their full sources of funding.

    People’s Vote says “the majority of our funding comes from small donors”. It also receives larger donations but says “it’s a matter for the donors if they want to go public”. Best for Britain says that some of its funders want to remain anonymous, and “we understand that”.
    But it seems to me that that transparent and accountable campaigns would identify anyone paying more than a certain amount (perhaps £1,000). If people don’t want to be named, they shouldn’t use their money to influence our politics.
    Both campaigns insist that they abide by the rules governing funding for political parties, elections and referendums.

    As they must know better than most, the rules on such spending are next to useless.
    They were last redrafted 19 years ago, when online campaigning had scarcely begun. It’s as if current traffic regulations insisted only that you water your horses every few hours and check the struts on your cartwheels for woodworm. The Electoral Commission has none of the powers required to regulate online campaigning or to extract information from companies such as Facebook. Nor does it have the power to determine the original sources of money spent on political campaigns.
    So it is unable to tell whether or not the law that says funders must be based in the UK has been broken. The maximum fines it can levy are pathetic: £20,000 for each offence. That’s a small price to pay for winning an election.

    Since 2003, the commission has been asking, with an ever greater sense of urgency, for basic changes in the law. But it has been stonewalled by successive governments. The exposés of Carole Cadwalladr, the Guardian, openDemocracy and Channel 4 News about the conduct of the referendum have so far made no meaningful difference to government policy. We have local elections in May and there could be a general election at any time.
    The old, defunct rules still apply.

    Our politicians have instead left it to Facebook to do the right thing. Which is, shall we say, an unreliable strategy. In response to the public outcry, Facebook now insists that organisations placing political ads provide it (but not us) with a contact based in the UK. Since October, it has archived their advertisements and the amount they spend. But there is no requirement that its advertisers reveal who provides the funding. An organisation’s name means nothing if the organisation is opaque. The way Facebook presents the data makes it impossible to determine spending trends, unless you check the entries every week. And its new rules apply only in the US, the UK and Brazil. In the rest of the world, it remains a regulatory black hole.
    Dark money lurks at the heart of our political crisis
    George Monbiot


    So why won’t the government act? Partly because, regardless of the corrosive impacts on public life, it wants to keep the system as it is. The current rules favour the parties with the most money to spend, which tends to mean the parties that appeal to the rich. But mostly, I think, it’s because, like other governments, it has become institutionally incapable of responding to our emergencies. It won’t rescue democracy because it can’t. The system in which it is embedded seems destined to escalate rather than dampen disasters.

    Ecologically, economically and politically, capitalism is failing as catastrophically as communism failed. Like state communism, it is beset by unacknowledged but fatal contradictions. It is inherently corrupt and corrupting. But its mesmerising power, and the vast infrastructure of thought that seeks to justify it, makes any challenge to the model almost impossible to contemplate. Even to acknowledge the emergencies it causes, let alone to act on them, feels like electoral suicide. As the famous saying goes: “It is easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism.” Our urgent task is to turn this the other way round.

    • George Monbiot is a Guardian columnist
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    I watched The Andrew Marr BBC program on Brexit this morning.
    I might be a shade biased but the only politician --to my mind--who gave straight clear answers was Nicola Sturgeon.
    The rest was an exercise in seemingly intelligent avoidance.

    Think the standard advice of "Follow the Money" might apply.
    Both leave and stay camps are being funded, leave with no deal seems to be best funded.

    In who's interest is it to cause chaos and fear?
    Who has been feeding the media lies and unreal expectation?
    Who owns the media?
    Let's face it the media really controls public opinion.

    Chris

    I haven't voted since I was 18.
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    Default Re: The UK Brexit vote to leave the EU

    We can march for a new vote with heads held high – Britain was sold a fantasy Brexit and should think again

    The Independent Chuka Umunna,The Independent Sat, 23 Mar



    We can march for a new vote with heads held high – Britain was sold a fantasy Brexit and should think again

    When we launched the People’s Vote campaign last April, we had a sense something was stirring out in the country.

    Since the 2016 referendum, the half of the country who had voted Remain had been described as a liberal, metropolitan elite. Areas like mine in Lambeth, which scored the highest Remain vote but is one of the most deprived in England, were dismissed as “citizens of nowhere” by Theresa May – someone who will surely go down as one of the worst prime ministers of our country.
    We were not prepared to put up with it any longer – it was time to speak out.

    Significant numbers of Leave voters have come to believe that Brexit in the form it was sold to the British people by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and co was a fantasy.

    Many recoil in horror at the dark and ugly side of politics which the Brexiters have unleashed with the spike in hate crime and race attacks following the 2016 result.
    The Brexit elite’s attacks on good public servants – from the judiciary to the civil service, from backbench MPs to the Bank of England – who dare to point out the dangers posed to our economy from this dog’s dinner that is Brexit, did not sit easily with many.

    If you visit, Remainer Now, a grassroots network of former Leave voters, you can hear their stories.

    The People’s Vote movement’s strength is that it has transcended traditional political boundaries and has not been the tool of either of the frontbenches of the main parties. When it has been most successful, party political considerations have been left at the door; when it has struggled to make ground, it is usually because the internal party politics of one or both
    the main parties has intruded and weakened people’s resolve.

    For the most part, it has held together through thick and thin which is no small achievement given it is composed of political activists from the left and the right, unionists and nationalists, and those with no political affiliation at all.

    At our Put It To The People march, you will see Brits from every walk of life, from our cities, towns and villages, from every part of the country on the streets of the capital in peaceful protest at the joke politics has become, frustrated at the lack of leadership by the establishment, demanding that the people have the final say on Brexit.

    As MPs from different political traditions campaigning against Brexit, we have come to realise that there is more that unites us than the anti-Brexit cause.

    What underpins the movement is a set of progressive values that we all have in common. It is what ultimately drove some of us to leave the established parties to set out on the journey of creating a new one – to provide people with an alternative. We will never stop making the case for the UK being at the heart of and leading in the EU.

    Our patriotism drives our internationalism. We are proud of our country but recognise we cannot build a good society at home in isolation from the global forces that are buffeting our people around from abroad. Where appropriate, we should pool power and work closely with other nation states which share our values to shape the world we live in and protect the environment and our planet – there is no better alternative platform in our back yard to do this than the EU.

    We believe that work is the surest protection against poverty and destitution, and gives us all the means to prosper economically, but it also has a value in and of itself that gives purpose, identity and mission in life. Not only being able to access, but being part of, the world’s biggest trading bloc underpins millions of jobs in the UK.

    And, of course, there is more to life than work. Our families, in all their forms, are the building blocks of every community. Both our families and our communities motivate people, connect them to each other and give life meaning. So many of us have family ties to EU countries, in my case France, Ireland, Spain and Denmark. There are over five million EU citizens living and working in the UK, and UK citizens doing the same in other EU countries.

    So we are marching not just against Brexit, but we are marching because we are proud of the UK. We think everyone deserves the chance get a good, decent job which our trade and connections with the EU helps create and, fundamentally, we believe the EU is part of our identity and our families’ histories. It is these progressive values which lie behind the wonderful movement we have helped build this last year.

    Everyone marching can do so with their heads held high, proud of the positivity embodied in the campaign.
    image
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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