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Thread: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    . . .considering how much evidence you have just trashed, I don't have much enthusiasm to go clicking on your website.
    .................................................. my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    . . .considering how much evidence you have just trashed, I don't have much enthusiasm to go clicking on your website.
    Maybe Bollyn isn't all you think he is.

    Start here. When confronted with evidence that he was mistaken about the Shanksville crater being there prior to 2001, instead of writing a retraction (which I even do when I make a mistake), this was his response, below. Now I don't know about you, but some people might take that as a threat. What does my family background, and my high school photo have to do with the FACT that he was "mistaken?"


    From:
    Christopher Bollyn

    RE: About the Brave Truther Warrior – Stephen De’ak

    Two images
    Deak Fairbanks HS 1977 Deak name change
    Photo: Stephen De’ak in high school, 1977



    Image: Jewish De’ak family changes name from Deutsch to De’ak



    http://yankee451.com/?p=3858

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    I would just like to quote Bill's statement made on 30th June 2016 to reinforce an important point:

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    .
    These are all interesting questions. But I personally doubt if it really matters very much how the towers were brought down, what kind of missile hit the Pentagon, or even if the planes were real.

    I strongly suspect the community's natural curiosity about those kinds of details is being deliberately stoked to create disagreement — and distraction from the real issues.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by Joe from the Carolinas (here)
    I would just like to quote Bill's statement made on 30th June 2016 to reinforce an important point:

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    .
    These are all interesting questions. But I personally doubt if it really matters very much how the towers were brought down, what kind of missile hit the Pentagon, or even if the planes were real.

    I strongly suspect the community's natural curiosity about those kinds of details is being deliberately stoked to create disagreement — and distraction from the real issues.
    What are the real issues?

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    . . .considering how much evidence you have just trashed, I don't have much enthusiasm to go clicking on your website.
    I had not considered the evidence that yankee451 brings to the table regarding 9/11 until today.

    I've spent the last couple of hours considering a little bit of what yankee451 (who also publicly identifies himself here as Stephen De'ak) brings to the table, regarding 9/11 research.

    Yankee451's research and analysis bring what are, for me, a fresh set of eyes to 9/11 research. Thank-you - your work is very interesting work, that has substantially changed my view of 9/11 once again.

    ===

    Norman -- so far as I can tell, at least from what you've posted on this thread recently, it may well be that you actually are not in substantial disagreement with yankee451.

    If I understand correctly, you two both agree, along with me and likely most readers of this thread and forum, that the official US story regarding 9/11 is a steaming crock of lies, and that some portion(s) of the US government itself was (were) likely key participant(s) in carrying out 9/11, and were certainly key participants in covering up 9/11.

    What I learned from my so far brief review of yankee451's work is that the best of the various 9/11 truther/conspiracy theories that I had been able to cobble together, to explain the actual physical events of the day, in particular to explain where the towers went (in Judy Wood's fine phrase) ... may well be very wrong.

    Perhaps the answer to the question "Where did the towers go?" is "Much of what we're told was in those towers simply was not there."

    In any case, Norman, if you rile against yankee451's work because you presume that by dismissing our current (for many of us, many year) efforts to understand the physical events of that day, yankee451 is thus leading us back to something closer to the official lies, or some equally false equivalent ...

    ... then I think you presume incorrectly.

    ===

    In other words:
    • Event A (9/11) happens
    • Entity B (the US government and accomplices) tells us what happened (story C, the Official 9/11 Lie).
    • Researchers R1, R2, ... find C to be a crock of lies, and cobble together variations D1, D2, ... of the truth.
    • Yankee451 finds more flaws in in D1, D2, ... and further casts doubt on the motives of some of the researchers R1, ...
    • Yankee451 examines more evidence and proposes variant E1 to partially explain what happened to the towers (and at Shanksville.)

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Thank you, Paul!

    I appreciate your perspective, which is frankly, all I ever hoped for; an open discussion of the evidence we all have at our disposal. I have been wrong more often than not, so no one should take anything I have to say at face value; I urge everyone to scrutinize my conclusions carefully. Actually, I welcome the assistance. I am often myopic and make astonishing mistakes (astonishing, even to me), so please, point out where my conclusions are wrong, and I will correct the record, eat crow, and carry on with a newfound understanding of the truth.

    For those who want a teaser, the bottom line is "missiles."

    Thanks again!

    Steve

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    By the way, I do have a pretty good idea about the Pentagon too, but haven't had much time to post about it. Here's an interesting clip though:

    From the video description:

    Pentagon Smoke on 9/11 compared to a Russian military smoke machine "How does a smoke machine work? A smoke machine, in its simplest terms, is a heating element which gets very hot, through which special fluid is pumped and is vapourised, thereby creating smoke vapour which exits the machine through the nozzle. Electronic circuitry ensures that the heating block in the smoke machine is kept between certain temperatures - too hot and the machine turns into a flame thrower - too cold and it shoots out hot liquid. " http://www.smokemachines.net/faqs.shtml Note the burst of flame at about the 20 second mark. Original Source 911datasets.org FBI_FOIPA_NUMBER_1141552-000_1B-1B647


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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    New-"The Demolition of Truth-Psychologists Examine 9/11" Directors cut.



    Charles Ewing Smith
    Published on 1 Sep 2018


    Youtube World Premiere 9-1-18 - the COMPLETE (40 minutes longer than PBS version) award winning documentary featuring Ed Asner, Psychologists like Fran Shure, M.A., L.P.C. and Marti Hopper, PhD. , Scientific and Military Experts like Bob Bowman, and 9/11 Truth Godfather, David Ray Griffin.

    I created this with no money or sponsorship. It was just me for 2 years, BUT I had the awesome co-operation of many great patriotic experts and citizens. I made this to help the unsuspecting, unaware U.S. citizens deal with what will surely become the scandal of the century - Charles Ewing Smith, Executive Producer/Editor of "9/11 Explosive Evidence-Experts Speak Out" With Richard Gage.

    "The Demolition of Truth: Psychologists Examine 9/11" takes the discussion of questioning the official story of 9/11 to a whole new level. The documentary takes on an uncomfortable subject and brings it into the light, exploring how individuals and communities can heal and move forward ." Shari Bernson Director of Development / Executive Producer Colorado Public Television "If something that violates physics and science disproves it then IT DID NOT HAPPEN THAT WAY. So much SCIENTIFIC information shows 9/11 could NOT have happened as we were told. That should end the discussion and get the new investigation started. This documentary shows why this is not happening."
    What an excellent documentary. I forwarded it to my father, who is a construction engineer and who still believes 911 was an act of terror. I felt, if he watches it, that the way in which it was presented would offer a somewhat softer slap in the face than some other videos. I really hope he watches it.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    About time! Let us hope that the absurdity and lies of the "official story" and the truth of what really happened on 9/11 will finally be exposed so that the sleeping masses can no longer deny or ignore it and that the real perpetrators of this heinous crime are brought to justice.

    From the Corbett Report (August 31, 2018):
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by yankee451 (here)
    By the way, I do have a pretty good idea about the Pentagon too, but haven't had much time to post about it. Here's an interesting clip though:

    From the video description:

    Pentagon Smoke on 9/11 compared to a Russian military smoke machine "How does a smoke machine work? A smoke machine, in its simplest terms, is a heating element which gets very hot, through which special fluid is pumped and is vapourised, thereby creating smoke vapour which exits the machine through the nozzle. Electronic circuitry ensures that the heating block in the smoke machine is kept between certain temperatures - too hot and the machine turns into a flame thrower - too cold and it shoots out hot liquid. " http://www.smokemachines.net/faqs.shtml Note the burst of flame at about the 20 second mark. Original Source 911datasets.org FBI_FOIPA_NUMBER_1141552-000_1B-1B647


    I can see how the evidence you present can be smoke from a smoke machine, but how does that explain the hole through 6 walls ?
    .................................................. my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by yankee451 (here)
    By the way, I do have a pretty good idea about the Pentagon too, but haven't had much time to post about it. Here's an interesting clip though:

    From the video description:

    Pentagon Smoke on 9/11 compared to a Russian military smoke machine ...
    Aha - a smoke machine at the Pentagon - sure looks like it.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    I can see how the evidence you present can be smoke from a smoke machine, but how does that explain the hole through 6 walls ?
    My current, for some time now, working hypothesis is that something hit the Pentagon - something smaller in diameter and faster in speed than a commercial Boeing passenger plane, something more likely to be found on a military inventory than a private commercial passenger airline's inventory. Perhaps a ballistic missile, cruise missile, or remote controlled fighter plane.

    The final hole in the wall, 6 walls away, may have been "constructed" (blown out, or should I say, blown in) after the fact, as part of constructing the visual evidence for the public lies.

    I have little doubt but that if additional planted, or hastily brought in, under the cover of the smoke and confusion, explosives (and yet more smoke generators) were needed to create the planned special effects and destruction, those items could have been provided and used as well.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by yankee451 (here)
    A little something about Bollyn:


    If as I suspect the truth movement’s raison d’etre is to direct truthers away from the truth, then logically the truth will be found where truthers fear to tread. From the very beginning the truth movement’s approved lines of investigation were drawn out, and to this day those are the lines toed by the average truther; thermite, modified planes, and Israeli involvement are some of their hallmarks.
    ...
    The same can be said about the cornucopia of low hanging 9/11 fruit; the Zionists, Silverstein, the PNAC and the dancing Israelis are exposed as planted breadcrumbs designed to discredit anyone who swallows them. Jews are dangled in our faces as a “slide” which in hypnosis and brainwashing terms refers to a word or phrase that will shut-down critical thinking, thereby ending a conversation. We in the West have been brainwashed since the ‘70s to equate criticism of Israel with Anti-Semitism (whatever that is) therefore the fastest way to turn-off our Western neighbors is by sliding into the conversation a complaint about Jews. If this was my operation I’d make sure to put Jews and Zionists in positions of prominence to act as Jewish lightning rods to attract attention and to discredit anyone who notices. Since our only hope of stopping the wars is by exposing the lies that started them, Bollyn is out there taking the lead saying “Solving 9/11 Stops the Wars,” which sounds great and ought to be the theme of the whole truth movement if he wasn’t wrong about just about everything and if the truth movement wasn’t actively covering up the truth. If you really want to solve 9/11, Mr. Bollyn, then consider this a formal challenge to debate the evidence and “win or lose,” we’ll do just that, solve it.
    Methinks he complains too loudly.

    http://yankee451.com/?p=4343
    I just have to say, while not revisiting all the links and research I conducted in the past, to claim Bollyn is the main person responsible for misdirection on the Mossad-relationship to 9/11 flies in the face of quite a few documented facts, trial evidence, etc.

    These links and articles were well-documented in the MSM at the time, not 'planted breadcrumbs'. You are not going to get Mossad off that easily, in my view.

    Start with these links, and dig.

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...eisraelis.html

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...-11_index.html

    https://archive.org/stream/9-11CopBr...tacks_djvu.txt


    some but not all of the referenced mainstream links have not been scrubbed.

    from your post.

    Quote It was in 2002 that Bollyn started screaming about the PNAC, the Zionists, and Israeli Art Students. I don’t have a problem blaming Israel if that’s where the evidence leads, but like I said, we all have access to the same information, and from what I’ve found it leads a whole lot closer to a ****ty British Colony in North America than it does to some ****ty British Colony in the Middle East. Bollyn heralded the rumors that built the truth movement but those rumors aren’t true, and instead of his being laughed off stage he is lauded as one of the world’s premier 9/11 researchers. You can’t make this stuff up. When it comes to 9/11 everyone’s claims should be considered suspect, including mine, but especially those of the leaders!
    from the link I posted

    Quote The Jewish weekly The Forward reported that the FBI finally concluded that at least two of the detained Israelis were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. This was confirmed by two former CIA officers, and they noted that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. (23). The Israelis were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. (24)



    "There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11." (25)

    ..

    Several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home. Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." (26)

    https://www.veteranstodayarchives.co...phony-lawsuit/

    9/11: Civil Court Finds Against Arrested Dancing Israelis

    "Dancing Israelis" Arrested On 9/11 Later Sued The Govt, But Lost Their Case


    Quote Remember the Israelis who were arrested by New Jersey Police on 9/11/01 as the attacks occurred? They were arrested, interrogated, held for 71 days and eventually all sent back to Israel under suspicous circumstances.

    Many researchers have documented this as evidence of Israeli complicity in the attacks. But did you know that the Israelis later sued numerous government employees for civil rights violations? This is not widely known.

    There is a lot of information which outlines the initial stories of the “Dancing Israelis”, including WhatReallyHappened and KillTown. The website 911Myths, while defending the establishment’s story, also has a lot of good information on the case. LibertyFight.com disagrees with 911Myths conclusions and analysis but credits them with providing links to some information that many other sites do not have.

    This article will give an update on the “Dancing Israeli” situation, with new information which hasn’t been reported by anyone previously, to our knowledge. What has not been reported at all, either in the mainstream media or alternative media, is the conclusion of their civil case. The Israelis federal civil rights lawsuit was tossed out of court!

    The viral youtube video “History they don’t Teach you In school” covers a brief history of Israeli false-flag terrorism operations. There is an amusing backstory about this. The video, made by ZionCrimeFactory, was the video that spawned a call to police by a Texas Rabbi in 2010. Rice University Jewish Studies Professor Shira Lander called the police after a Houston man e-mailed her a link to ZCF’s youtube video.

    The Rabbi had advertised a public lecture series entitled “The History of Anti-Semitism” with a flier that asked “Why did some blame Jews for 9/11?” and the man simply responded to her question via e-mail correspondence. After that story broke, Dr. Kevin Barret invited Rabbi Lander, his academic colleague, to engage in some “interfaith dialogue” on his radio show regarding the matter, but she didn’t accept the offer for some reason.








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    Nevertheless, ZCF’s video features numerous mainstream news reports of Israelis being arrested by police that day, including footage of an interview with the New Jersey cop, Scott DeCarlo, who arrested the dancing Israelis at gunpoint. We will recap a bit here regarding the “Dancing Israelis”:

    5 men in a van owned by URBAN MOVING SYSTEMS were spotted by New Jersey residents following the 9/11 attacks dancing, laughing, posing for pictures, smiling and exchanging high-fives. A woman named Maria called the police. New Jersey police officer Scott DeCarlo told of how he had to arrest them at gunpoint after they failed to comply with his orders. History Commons has an excellent detailed account of events involving DeCarlo that day with news links.

    Ten years after the attacks, in September 2011, AmericanFreePress later conducted an exclusive interview with DeCarlo, now a Sergeant, who told AFP that this will be his first and last statement on the matter: 9-11 Cop Breaks Silence

    The actual police and FBI reports were declassified and released in 2011, and can be read in their entirety through the following links. (911Myths notes that they originally retrieved the 6 documents from scribd.com.):
    •East Rutherford police documents View on Scribd
    •FBI Documents, section #1 View on Scribd
    •FBI Documents, section #2 View on Scribd
    •FBI Documents, section #3 View on Scribd
    •FBI Documents, section #4 View on Scribd
    •FBI Documents, section #5 View on Scribd

    CBS reported “A truckload of explosives” and CNN reported “a ton of explosives” in a van stopped “near the George Washington Bridge”, with three men arrested and in custody. Later, CNN ran a press conference with Mayor Rudolph Guliani and Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik in which Kerik denied that any exposives were found. All three news videos can be seen at the very bottom of this page.

    An Irish news agency also ran the story ‘Three arrested with van full of explosives’ (see video above that debunks retraction..Ed) but later ran an update, ‘Police confirm arrests but deny explosives find’. There is contention about whether the van with reported explosives was the same van with the five Israelis. However, as we will discuss berlow, note that the Jewish publication reporting on the civil lawsuit on 9/14/04 ran the headline Israelis detained on George Washington Bridge on 9/11 sue Department of Justice.

    The Owner of Urban Moving Systems, an Israeli citizen named Dominick Suter, left the country immediately following the arrests, and abandoned his business entirely:
    State Granted Access to Moving Company’s Storage Facility


    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
    December 13, 2001

    “NEWARK- The State Division of Consumer Affairs (“Consumer Affairs”) is asking all citizens who have goods stored at Urban Moving Systems’ Weehawken warehouse to immediately contact Consumer Affairs, Attorney General John J. Farmer, Jr., and New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs Director Mark S. Herr announced today. The State on Wednesday obtained a court order giving inspectors from Consumer Affairs access to the facility allowing consumers access to retrieve their goods and belongings.

    The State, at the same time, filed a lawsuit in Hudson County Superior Court against Urban Moving Systems and its owner Dominick Suter alleging violations of both the State’s Consumer Fraud Act and regulations set forth in the Public Movers and Warehousing Licensing Act. According to the complaint, on or about September 14, 2001, Suter departed from the United States and left no one acting as an agent for Urban.”

    On September 15, 2001, ‘The Record’ of Bergen County, NJ), reported FIVE HIJACK SUSPECTS HAD LINKS TO N.J.; ‘MATERIAL WITNESS IN CUSTODY IN N.Y.C.; THE INVESTIGATION, which read, in part. “An employee of Urban Moving Systems, who would not give his name, said the majority of his co-workers are Israelis and were joking on the day of the attacks. “I was in tears,” the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.”

    ABC’s TV News Program 20/20 did an episode on the matter June 21, 2002,: “Five Israeli men arrested soon after 9/11 might have been working for Israeli intelligence, but likely did not know beforehand about the attacks”.

    They also ran a news story titled The White Van. ABC’s 20/20 interviewed a former CIA chief for the segment:

    “Vince Cannistraro is a former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the Central Intelligence Agency. Now he’s a consultant with ABC News. He says many in the US intelligence community believe that some of the men arrested in the white van were in the US working for Israeli intelligence. They speculate that Urban Moving was being used by Israel as an intelligence front.”

    I suggest reading the entire transcript of the 20/20 segment because it is very interesting and gives a lot of details. The five Israelis were eventually released after lengthy interrogations: “Sources tell 20/20, after high-level negotiations between Israeli and US government officials, a settlement was worked out.” ABC interviewed two of the Israelis, brothers Paul and Sivan Kurzberg.

    Paul is quoted as telling 20/20 “(Through translator) I went to work over there because, I don’t know, the situation here is not the best.” Sivan Kurzberg said “(Through translator) They took away two months of my life. During that time I was supposed to be on a trip that I had planned when I started my military service.”

    20/20 transcript excerpt:

    MILLER: (VO) This is Kurzberg’s younger brother, Sivan, who was one of the three men on top of the van that morning. Although Paul and Sivan would not talk with us about the incident, Sivan and two of the other detainees did go on an Israeli talk show after their return. Oded Ellner denied they were laughing or happy that today.

    Mr. ODED ELLNER: (Through translator, from Israeli talk show) Nothing of the kind, the fact of the matter is, we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.”

    The mens’ defense attorney Ram Horvitz, who was also interviewed by 20/20, denied all wrongdoing and denied the men were Mossad agents: “This story about the five boys being connected with Israeli intelligence is the most stupid and ridiculous story that I ever heard, and it is nonsense. I don’t know who invented this story.”

    Mark Regav, the spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Washington, also spoke with 20/20 and denied any Israeli intelligence connection to the five men, claiming “The story is simply false.”

    Channel 4 in the UK later produced a documentary called “The 9/11 Conspiracies”. They interviewed Maria, the woman who initially called the police on the men, and also interviewed three of the Israelis.

    While the Israelis didn’t talk to 20/20 about the incident in June 2002, they did speak about it in the UK documentary. It is an excellent must-see segment and can be found towards the bottom of the page here.

    In 2004, four of the Israelis, Paul Kurzberg, Silvan Kurzberg, Israelis Yaron Shmuel, and Omer Gavriel Marmari filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Attorney General John Ashcroft and wardens of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The four were represented by New York attorney Robert Joseph Tolchin and Israeli attorney Nitsana Darshan-Leitner.

    They claimed that their detention was illegal and that their civil rights were violated, suffering racial slurs, physical violence, religious discrimination, rough interrogations, deprivation of sleep, and many other offenses. The lawsuit also stated “As Israelis and as Jews, plaintiffs themselves are sworn enemies of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.”

    Regarding the “dancing Israelis”, 911Myths.com notes “One curious footnote to this story appeared three years later, when four of the Israelis filed a lawsuit against the Department of Justice. We’ve not yet discovered what happened to the case, and the lack of information suggests it never reached court. Still, bringing the case at all is hardly what you’d expect if these really were Mossad agents somehow connected to 9/11. Surely three years on they’d want to keep their heads down, not re-open the whole affair?”

    There are three archived news reports on the lawsuit from September 2004. The first is an Kokhaviv Publications IMRA Newsletter titled “Israelis detained on George Washington Bridge on 9/11 sue Department of Justice” dated September 14, 2004.

    The 2nd is an archive of a Jerusalem Post article titled Four Israelis sue Ashcroft dated September 14, 2004. The 3rd is from the Jewish news weekly of Northern California, titled Four Israelis sue Ashcroft, FBI director over 9/11 treatment dated Friday, September 17, 2004.

    The Public can access Federal Court records by registering with a system called PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records) at pacer.gov. There is a fee for this service and a charge for each paid viewed. Sometimes, litigants or others may choose to post legal documents from civil cases for the public on other sources outside of the PACER system, on their own sites or websites such as leagle.com.

    LibertyFight regularly reviews various legal filings and writes about interesting cases, such as the case involving the Oregon man who sued the police for falsely arresting him after he flipped them off (he won), the woman who was arrested for allegedly avoiding jury duty in Colorado, the lawyer from Los Angeles who beat her red light camera ticket, or the U.S. Department of Justice’s letter to the cops outlining the people’s right to film police.

    In the case of the Israelis arrested on 9/11, some of the documents have been made public on leagle.com. The case is KURZBERG v. ASHCROFT 619 F.3d 176 (2010). The document is from the United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit. The Docket No. of the case is 07-0542-cv. It was argued on November 17, 2009 and decided on August 30, 2010.

    To put it plainly, the case was dismissed not because of any of the issues involved or merits of the case, but because the plaintiffs failed to serve the defendants properly as per the rules of the Federal Court.

    Because the plaintiffs sued Attorney General John Ashcroft along with many others working for the government, as the appeals court put it, “the plaintiffs were required to serve process on both the individual defendants and -because the individual defendants were sued for acts or omissions occurring in connection with their performance of their duties – the United States.”

    Ashcroft early in the proceedings actually waived his right to be personally served, but the plaintiffs had to officially serve the U.S as well. As the court explained, “by its plain text, requires service both upon the individual defendant and upon the United States officially; one will not suffice for the other.”

    They actually gave the plaintiffs numerous chances to accomplish this, which was literally as simple as going down to any post office and mailing a certified letter! As the court further explained in their ruling,

    “In order to serve process on the United States, the plaintiffs were required to deliver a copy of the complaint to the United States attorney for the district in which the action was brought and also send a copy of the summons and complaint by registered or certified mail to the Attorney General.

    Here, the plaintiffs failed to comply with Rule 4(i) because they did not effect service on the United States. The plaintiffs failed to do so despite receiving repeated reminders from the defendants that left the plaintiffs with sufficient time to complete service.”

    The court also noted:

    “The time period for completion of service extended under Rule 4(m) elapsed without the plaintiffs serving process on the United States through service on the Attorney General by registered or certified mail.

    They did, however, attempt to serve the United States three days before the time period expired by sending a copy of the summons and complaint by first-class mail to the mailing address for the Attorney General at the Department of Justice; the attempt was insufficient because it did not make use of registered or certified mail.

    After the time period granted by the court had expired, several of the defendants, including Ashcroft, moved in the district court to dismiss the action on grounds of improper service of process, including failure to serve the United States through service on the Attorney General by registered or certified mail.

    The district court (John Gleeson, Judge) dismissed the case with respect to all of the defendants, including those who had not raised an improper service defense by pleading or motion. See Kurzberg v. Ashcroft, No. 04 Civ. 3950, 2006 WL 2738991, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 68680 (E.D.N.Y. Sept. 25, 2006)…

    “Serving process on the United States through service by registered or certified mail on the Attorney General might seem, from a practical standpoint, to be nothing more than a formality inasmuch as the Attorney General, who is charged with determining whether the United States will provide representation to individual defendants, was himself an individual defendant in this lawsuit. That does not, however, excuse noncompliance with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

    The district court did not err in so holding. For the foregoing reasons, we affirm the judgment of the district court.”

    This seems like an unbelievable and absurd thing to happen when there are at least two professional lawyers handling the case for the plaintiffs. It might be understandable if a person was trying to wade through the courts and represent themself.

    Federal court rules can be very complicated and burdensome to the average person not versed in the legal system. Many times, cases are thrown out even when plaintiffs do have attorneys, such as in the case of when Jesse Ventura tried to sue the TSA or the ridiculous case of when Ron Paul tried to sue a youtube user (that case was rightly tossed out).

    Many times, the court will dismiss a case based on what seems like a “technicality”, such as “standing”, “jurisdiction” “Venue”, failing to respond on time, etc. Fred Rodell, Law Professor at Yale University, wrote a classic essay in 1939 on the fraud and pig-latin type jibberish used by lawyers and judges.

    It’s titled WOE UNTO YOU, LAWYERS! and is an excellent, must-read treatise. (The phrase is from Luke 11:46:“But he said: Woe to you lawyers also, because you load men with burdens which they cannot bear and you yourselves touch not the packs with one of your fingers.”)

    But for a team of international lawyers in a high profile case, to let the case be tossed out literally because they failed to serve the U.S. Attorney general properly?

    According to press reports at the time the case was first filed in 2004, the plaintiffs’ lawyer Nitsana Darshan-Leitner said:

    “The infamous arrest of these young Israelis on 9/11 has been used by anti-Semites worldwide as ‘proof’ of Israel’s involvement in the World Trade Center attack. Our clients are seeking compensation for the harm they suffered in the MDC by prison officials.

    In addition, the law suit will serve as an important public forum to debunk the lie that Israel or the Mossad was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It will show that there was no Jewish conspiracy as the Arab world continues to claim and put an end to this racist blood libel.”

    If it were so important to have a public hearing and “debunk the lie that Israel or the Mossad was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks”, why would the lawyers allow the lawsuit get tossed out for such an absurd and avoidable reason?!

    In 2004 when the suit was filed, many people across the U.S. and the world were researching and finding out the truth about 9/11. Could it be that the lawsuit was filed at a time to deflect attention away from Israeli complicity and paint them instead as the abused victims?

    It was tossed out for not sending a certified letter. Do you know how simple it is to send a certified letter, with a return receipt? You can do it at any U.S. Post office for usually less than $5 bucks. Strange days indeed.

    At the bottom of this page in the green section are some relevent excerpts from the Appeals Court’s 2010 ruling.
    Last edited by mountain_jim; 7th September 2018 at 19:52.
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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by norman (here)

    I can see how the evidence you present can be smoke from a smoke machine, but how does that explain the hole through 6 walls ?
    Initial reports were that a truck bomb went off, which might explain the impact hole, but as for the interior damage and roof collapse, those were internal explosives. For the punch out hole, they used a big one of these:



    https://www.eba-d.com/assets/product...or-Gen-Use.pdf[
    Last edited by yankee451; 7th September 2018 at 21:19.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    The fact is the Israelis weren't dancing, but some people do like to refer to them as "dancing," but it isn't true.
    They were seen, and reported, after the first impact, therefore the statement that they "were there to document the event" was exactly what other people were doing at the time, and is not evidence of foreknowledge.
    The "truck bomb" rumor was just that, a rumor, which was later retracted:

    Quote QUESTION: Mayor, do you know anything about the report about the possible resources that they found in New Jersey?
    GIULIANI: Yes. I think the Police Commissioner was able to get information about that.
    BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: I just got a confirmation from the Chief of Detectives, he's reach out to the FBI. They have confirmed that someone has been stopped in New Jersey, three men in a van. However, there was no explosives in the van. All right. They're being held for questioning.
    QUESTION: Where in New Jersey, do you know?
    KERIK: I can't say yet.
    QUESTION: OK.
    QUESTION: Why were they stopped and why do you think they're connected with this?
    GIULIANI: We can't tell at this point. It's between the FBI and the Port Authority. We just got the confirmation by phone after I left the last briefing.
    QUESTION: Were they on the George Washington Bridge as they were heading to New Jersey?
    GIULIANI: No, they weren't.
    QUESTION: Were they in the Meadow Land?
    QUESTION: There were rumors that there were explosives, where did those rumors come from or why did that begin to circulate?
    KERIK: I can't tell you.
    QUESTION: Were they in the Meadow Land, Police Commissioner?
    KERIK: Excuse me?
    QUESTION: Were they in the Meadow Land?
    KERIK: It's my understanding, but I -- we haven't confirmed that.
    QUESTION: Do we know why they were stopped?
    KERIK: Not yet.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../11/se.05.html
    The mural van was another one:

    Quote A panel truck with a painting of a plane flying into the World Trade Center was stopped near the temporary command post. It proved to be rented to a group of ethnic Middle Eastern people who did not speak English. Fearing that it might be a truck bomb, the NYPD immediately evacuated the area, called out the bomb squad, and detained the occupants until a thorough search was made. The vehicle was found to be an innocent delivery truck.
    http://transweb.sjsu.edu/mtiportal/r...ept11.book.htm
    Israel is just another British Colony just like the USA, and they are doing to their indigenous population exactly what the USA has been doing for the last 500 years. However horrible Israel is, the USA is worse, but there’s no way the USA and Israel were the only players in 9/11. Clearly ALL the world’s nations were involved, especially the enemy nations. Surely the North Korean, Chinese, Iranian, Iraqi, and Russian critical thinkers, leaders and military minds know mostly hollow aluminum jets can’t fly through steel, bore through concrete buildings and burrow into the ground in the real world. The very nations that could blow the whistle (and allegedly have every reason to do so), do not. There is obviously global collusion at play and we are deliberately given the “Israeli breadcrumbs” because one of the goals is, and always has been, to control the opposition. What better way to marginalize a peace movement than to make them out to be bigots. Here in the West we are indoctrinated from birth to equate criticism of Israel with “Anti-Semites,” whatever that is, so whether or not the breadcrumbs are deliberately planted the result is still the same - a turned-off public to the AntiSemtic Truth movement. The CIA is expert at setting up patsies after all but the evidence I’ve seen leads a lot closer to home than some crappy little British Colony in the Middle East. All the world is a stage, apparently.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    I can see how the evidence you present can be smoke from a smoke machine, but how does that explain the hole through 6 walls ?
    My current, for some time now, working hypothesis is that something hit the Pentagon - something smaller in diameter and faster in speed than a commercial Boeing passenger plane, something more likely to be found on a military inventory than a private commercial passenger airline's inventory. Perhaps a ballistic missile, cruise missile, or remote controlled fighter plane.

    The final hole in the wall, 6 walls away, may have been "constructed" (blown out, or should I say, blown in) after the fact, as part of constructing the visual evidence for the public lies.

    I have little doubt but that if additional planted, or hastily brought in, under the cover of the smoke and confusion, explosives (and yet more smoke generators) were needed to create the planned special effects and destruction, those items could have been provided and used as well.
    There would be no surreptitious movement needed considering the perpetrators probably included the joint chiefs of staff, who should be ultimately responsible for "allowing" the attack to occur.

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events


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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Hint....Hint! Read Christopher Bollyn's two books!!

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    Here is a Website that gives some different views and excellent research. It seems fitting for the 9-11 anniversary.
    One part that was particularly interesting was it was a missle with hologram tech to make it look like a plane. And nukes in the elevator shaft. And termite on the initial entry to give evidence that jet fuel can melt steel. They also show a missile on bottom of plane that "went in" the tower.

    https://jamesperloff.com/2017/08/31/...lot-about-911/

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    Default Re: Would like opinions re 9/11 and approach to all other related events

    The James Perloff article mentioning mini-nukes on 9/11 reminded me that there are tons of articles on Veteran's Today about that.


    Here's the conclusion of a July 1, 2018 article there containing numerous links to their articles about nukes on 9/11 and elsewhere.


    -------


    Conclusion

    This is a small portion of what transpired in the aftermath of 9/11. The story goes everywhere, Israeli nuclear weapons trading, nuclear spies among the Bush and Clinton administrations and the unmistakable fingerprints of a massive criminal conspiracy that supersedes governments themselves.


    More importantly, the continued rearing of the ugly head of those responsible for 9/11 and its aftermath, as activists and “troofers,” largely run out of the Tel Aviv and Haifa troll rooms, that and the “troofer” media darlings that keep the lie machine alive….


    And so it goes.


    Resources:


    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/0...-trade-center/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/0...nuclear-event/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/0...-their-graves/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/0...-doc-revealed/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/1...ing-the-nukes/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/0...om-countryman/
    and
    1. 9-11 Revelations continue, Humiliating the victims, Dancing on their Graves
    2. The Problem with Cold Fusion and How small can a Nuclear Reaction Be?
    3. The B-61, the more Usable Nuke
    4. VT Nuclear Education: North Korea Fission-Fusion (Hydrogen bomb) Device Claim Doubted
    ______________
    9-11 Syllabus and VT Nuclear Education Series – 2015
    1. The Secret of America’s Doomsday Waste
    2. VT Nuclear Education: The History of Nuclear Weapons Design 1945 to 2015
    3. VT Nuclear Education: The Uranium Hydride Bomb
    4. VT Nuclear Education: Subcritical and microfission explosives
    5. VT Nuclear Education – Freon and the Hohlraum
    6. The Secret Nazi role in Building the Atomic Bomb
    7. How the Nazi A-Bomb Worked
    8. VT Nuclear Education: Critical Mass
    9. VT Nuclear Education: Laser and Nuke Weapon Calculator
    10. VT Nuclear Education: Germany
    11. 9/11 Science: Craters and Explosive Damage
    12. Neutron Bombs and Other Toys
    13. NEO: Building Nuclear Case Against Saudis
    14. VT Nuclear Education: The Secrets of EMP Weapons
    15. VT Nuclear Education: Explosive Properties of Reactor Grade Plutonium
    16. Nukes on Yemen, Confirming Proofs: Yield Estimation from Illumination Time
    17. Nukes on Yemen, Confirming Proofs: Introduction to Nuclear Operations
    18. Nukes on Yemen-Confirming Proofs: Calculating Nuclear Blast Yield from the Flash
    19. How Israel Was Busted Nuking Yemen
    20. Saudis Have Israel Nuke Yemen for Them
    21. VT Warning of EMP Plot Confirmed by Guardian
    22. VT Nuke Education: Thorium Warnings
    23. VT Nuclear Education: CIA/Iran Trial and more disclosure
    24. NEO – CIA Torture Report Ties Cheney/Bout to 9/11 Nukes
    25. The DOE Defends Nuclear 9/11
    ______________
    9-11 Syllabus and VT Nuclear Education Series – 2014
    1. Too Classified to Publish: Bush Nuclear Piracy Exposed
    2. Nuke Cancer from 9/11 Revealed
    3. 9/11 NUKE DEMOLITION PROOF: Firefighters Radiation Cancers “Off the Scale”
    4. Doc Submitted By Russian Intel
    5. Constructing the Nuclear Child
    6. VT Nuclear Education Series
    7. Nuclear Education Series: Dimona Classified
    8. VT Nuclear Terrorism Education Series
    9. VT Nuclear Education: Undeniable Proof of 9/11 as a Nuclear Event
    10. VT Nuclear Education: As the Hammer Drops
    11. VT Nuclear Education: Mossad/N. Korea Links, MOX
    12. Nuclear Roundtable: America’s Nuclear Arsenal
    13. Officials Cite “Thermo-Nuke” in 9/11 Demo
    14. VT Nuclear Education: Fission Based Thermobaric Weapons
    15. IAEA investigators: Audit reveals US, not Iran the Problem
    VT Supporting Material on 9/11, Nuclear Physics and Disclosure Issues
    1. VT Nuclear Education: Anti – gravity
    2. NEO – Mini Nukes and M16: The Economy of War (must read)
    3. VT Nuclear Education: Nukes in Iraq, Confirmation UPDATED
    4. VT Flexing Its Nuclear Muscle (must read)
    5. Nuclear 9/11 Revealed: Theories and Disinformation, the Misguided and the Inhuman (must read)
    6. VT Nuclear Education: Tactical Nuclear Warfare (must read)
    7. VT Nuclear Education: Early Reactors
    8. IAEA investigators: Audit reveals US, not Iran the problem (must read)
    9. VT Nuclear Education: History of Mini-Nukes (must read)
    10. VT Nuclear Education: Answering the Hype (must read)
    11. VT Nuclear Education: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Atom Smasher (must read)
    12. VT Nuclear Education: LENR Neutron Distribution
    13. Einsteins Theory on Magnetic Buoyancy
    14. VT Science: Fuel Cell Technology
    15. VT Science: The Farnsworth Fusor
    16. VT Science: HAARP
    17. Fusion: Junk Science For Rubes
    18. NEO – Nuclear Threats Enter the Mainstream (must read)
    19. VT Science: NASA’s Low Energy Fusion VooDoo/DooDoo
    20. The Connection Between Aurora and Black Triangles (Redux)
    21. Jeff Smith on Upcoming Able Danger Leak
    22. VT Nuclear Education: Japan
    23. VT Nuclear Education: Detonations and Deceit
    24. 9/11 Hokum: Deconstructing Christopher Bollyn and Steve Jones
    25. Why are the Commanding Generals being Sacked?
    Those who must silence others for speaking the truth cannot be innocent.

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