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Thread: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Exactly
    So where are you saying the shot came from?
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

    Who? I doubt we'll ever know
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 30th August 2016 at 19:05.

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Exactly
    So where are you saying the shot came from?
    storm drain?

    This photo puts the car in the perfect position:








    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

    Who? I doubt we'll ever know
    hmm, left as you face the car perhaps.. let's call it off to the "passenger side" of the vehicle, not "left".
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Except... those storm drains are on the right of the limo - again, the angles don't work (any storm drains on the left of the limo???)

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    I am talking as if you were sitting in the car facing forward.

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Except... those storm drains are on the right of the limo - again, the angles don't work (any storm drains on the left of the limo???)

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    I am talking as if you were sitting in the car facing forward.
    So your saying he was shot from the left and his head went back and to the left?

    I don't think that's what you mean to say.. I'm certain he was shot from the front RIGHT of the car ( for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction) thus his head was pushed back and to the left... the bullet trajectory in the "head model" lines up perfectly for a shot from down low & to the right (passenger side, the side he was sitting on) due to the angle of his head in the video... and that angle is lined up right with the drain.
    Last edited by TargeT; 30th August 2016 at 19:25.
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Slightly to the left - think of the centerline of the car: Kennedy has now slumped over toward Jackie, placing his head near the centerline, looking down and slightly to the left. Draw a straight line forward from Kennedy's head angle (toward the front of the car, based on the head model above it would just about line up with the front left corner of the limo....)

    (His back brace would have prevented that exact movement)
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 30th August 2016 at 19:38.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    storm drain?

    Based on the view from this pic, the shooter wouldnt have been able to see the car.


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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Slightly to the left - think of the centerline of the car: Kennedy has now slumped over toward Jackie, placing his head near the centerline, looking down and slightly to the left. Draw a straight line forward from Kennedy's head angle (toward the front of the car, based on the head model above it would just about line up with the front left corner of the limo....)

    I'd say VIOLENTLY left.. look at this video, watch his neck, notice that his arm follows as his head is jerked back and the back brace interferes, there is a bias of movement showing us a transfer of energy from the forward right... there was a lot of energy transfer there (indicative of a rifle, or decent sized caliber bullet.. or maybe even the more exotic stuff).

    Watch to about 5 seconds, second 4 you can see under his chin as his head is pushed up and left.


    Purely based on video is where I'm coming up with this idea (well, agreeing with it, I didnt' come up with anything really)
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    That depends where you put the shooter?

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo
    Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

    If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)



    Based on the view from this pic, the shooter wouldnt have been able to see the car.

    Looks to me like it would line up perfect, and you could use the corner of the drain as a brace... I was just there, spent my time on the cop shooting though, didn't think to goto the drain..

    I'd have to see it in person to be sure, but it's making sense to me... mostly due to the video.
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Let's not start calling names, here. This "crude" picture explains the angle: top down view (Top is front of limo), car moving forward, circles represent heads of each person in the car, red line is rough trajectory of the "bullet/projectile" whatever... fired from the front ... left is left. Red line also roughly depicts the angle Kennedy's head was at the point of impact

    Click image for larger version

Name:	JFKShot.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	24.3 KB
ID:	34127
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 30th August 2016 at 19:59.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo
    Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.
    The video from the discovery channel... I dunno how much I'd trust that one

    Pretty workable angle here:




    Looks very plausible from this:


    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Let's not start calling names, here. This "crude" picture explains the angle: top down view (Top is front of limo), car moving forward, circles represent heads of each person in the car, red line is rough trajectory of the "bullet/projectile whatever... fired from the front ... left is left. Red line also roughly depicts the angle Kennedy's head was at the point of impact

    Attachment 34127
    That angle (with the window included) is very very high, I don't think that's possible at all; certainly not with how his body reacted... I've shot enough things that you just sort of get a "feel" for how it's suppose to move.. Kenedy moved a little strangely but the back brace would account for that, the rest "feels" right (yeah, that's some poor evidence i guess.. haha)

    a shot at that angle would be very steep to hit a slumped kenedy & would shove his head FURTHER down and to the right from that angle.

    Last edited by TargeT; 30th August 2016 at 20:04.
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    See above...

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo
    Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

    If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.
    See above diagram - well bringing down the WTC with two airliners is pretty "nutty" too, ay? (I never throw the baby out with the bathwater...) The simple maths of this might say otherwise.

    Of course, you're entitled to disagree with whatever you like

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    See above diagram -
    blue line seems a lot more plausible than the red line ( you had JFK too far center, i fixed it )
    Click image for larger version

Name:	JFKShot.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	37.2 KB
ID:	34132
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    So I guess you did miss a few posts ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo
    Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

    If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.
    See above diagram - well bringing down the WTC with two airliners is pretty "nutty" too, ay? (I never throw the baby out with the bathwater...) The simple maths of this might say otherwise.

    Of course, you're entitled to disagree with whatever you like
    What I see when I watch the film is that the object people claim is the gun held by the driver is actually glare from the top of the head of the person sitting in the front right seat. Look at several frames before and you can catch a few glimpses of this same reflection.

    But hey, I have not made up my mind at all in any way regarding the details of the actual event (how many shooters, where the shooters shot from, how many bullets, how many hit Kennedy, did a separate bullet hit Connally only, etc.). What I am certain about is that this was a coup.
    Last edited by Sammy; 30th August 2016 at 20:49.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Hmmm nice reworking of my pic TargeT (I'll stick to my version )

    The simple fact of the matter is, this was a planned inside job; the coverup of the facts is still continuing to this day. Who "did it" ? We'll probably never know. Also, Why?

    Herein lies the key: who had the power to organise the assassination and cover-up the crime after the fact? And who really had the most to lose?
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 30th August 2016 at 20:46.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    I think the why is that a critical mass of reasons were reached. Depending on who you were, what position of power you held, what agendas you represented all varied yet, folks like Johnson had clear motivation and personality type. He also had connections with a few corporations in the industrial military complex who would benefit from a reverse in global aggression (especially Vietnam). His association with Hoover helped. Texas oil boys (and big oil in general) had their reasons (not just the depletion allowance being threatened by JFK). Dulles and his friends (still CIA and ex-CIA) had their own reasons. The "mob" was back stabbed by Robert Kennedy. The FED boys surely had their reasons. Elements of the Dallas Police played a role. Don't forget Earle Cabell (mayor of Dallas at the time of the assassination) was the brother of Charles Cabell who was deputy director of the CIA until he resigned over the Bay of Pigs incident.

    And these folks all had loose relationships with each other and/or had blackmail on each other. But IMO Johnson (with hitmen at his beckoning) was the key and Hoover covered his butt and Dulles' helped, perhaps some of the shooters, certainly operation planning, management and damage control. The mob connections of the CIA was a major contribution and the folks who felt wronged by the Bay of Pigs fiasco were associated with both the mob and the CIA.

    Most folks may not have analyzed that Bay of Pigs operation the same as I have. It looks to me like the the hawks who were pushing for more war (specifically with Russia in their sites) had planned the operation such that it would fail such that Kennedy would be forced to send in US Air Force jets and Dulles made a bad call banking on the fact he would. If Kennedy had done so, Russia would probably have reacted. When the jets were called back (my information was RFK played a role in this as well), the op failed and the military industrial complex didn't get their wish.

    Kennedy made it clear (and word got back to Johnson) that Johnson would not be VP for the second term. The Bobby Baker investigation was just about to have a critical hearing in the senate where Johnson additionally was a focus of the probe. This was Kennedy's excuse for dropping Johnson but insiders all knew that they both hated each other, RFK and Johnson too. Johnson's choice was easy, jail or become the president of the US. Note, Johnson's residence in Washington DC was very near Hoover's home and it was known that Hoover's wife and Lady Bird Johnson had a "special" relationship. Those who knew Lady Bird knew she was quite ruthless as well. Hoover's role in the cover up was critical.

    Again... jail or lead "the Free World." Kennedy was assassinated and thereafter Johnson was no longer a focus of the investigation team.
    Last edited by Sammy; 30th August 2016 at 21:34.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Wow, you folks were certainly busy in this thread today.

    Everyone seems to be concentrating on the storm drain on the street, but no one thinks a shot could have come from the storm drain to the right of the underpass instead??

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    [QUOTE=enigma3;1090686]The definitive video to watch is the 9 part series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". Each part is roughly one hour long. If you don't have that kind of time, do watch parts 7, 8 and 9. A&E broadcast the first 7 episodes and then the elites stepped forward and prevented the airing of parts 8 and 9. Part 8 is the best one with part 9 the conclusion. Best video out there. A British company made it.

    Regarding the series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy".
    The first video spends a great deal of time on Oswald and Ruby. To understand Oswald the best source I found was John Armstrong's book, "Harvey and Lee". It is a very big book and very dry reading because it gives fact after fact after fact. In that book you'll find there were 2 Oswalds. Harvey who was of Eastern European dissent, could speak Russian fluently and had thinning hair. Lee was from Texas and had thick hair. Ruby is a rather tragic figure and maybe we'll all know what he meant when he gave that speech to Earl Warren.
    In part 1 video the first Parkland doctor you see is Dr. McCelland. During the attempted resuscitation of JFK, McCelland stood at JFK's head helping to hold traction for a tracheostomy tube that Dr. Perry put in. McCelland was the senior doctor that day. All the doctors who took part in the resuscitation wrote notes or typed notes immediately after the attempted resuscitation. McCelland's note stated the president died of a gun shot wound to the left temple that exited the right parietal area. McCelland would later recant this saying he didn't actually see the wound but that he was told this by Dr. Jenkins, an anesthesiologist. Jenkins did not write about the entrance wound in his note but did testify to it in the testimony he gave to Arlen Specter when Specter came to Dallas to take the Parkland doctors testimony.
    Note the drawing that McCelland makes in this video. The exit wound is higher and more to the side than the picture that is on the intranet. The picture he makes in this video looks like where all or most of what the Parkland doctors testified to.
    Next Parkland doctor you see is Dr. Peters. Dr. Peters became a famous urologist. In caring for JFK he helped put the right chest tube in along with Dr. Baxter. Dr. Baxter mentions that Dr. Rose who was a forensic pathologist wanted to do the autopsy. I've read Dr. Perry's testimony and Dr. Carrico's statements elsewhere and what I understand is that the Parkland doctors believed the Bethesda doctors were just incompetent.
    The doctors from Parkland Hospital probably read the autopsy protocolhttp://www.history-matters.com/archi...d-exhibits.htm
    This is a link to a list of medical documents pertaining to the JFK assassination. Look for the autopsy protocol. You'll see Humes wrote chest tubes for subcutaneous emphysema. I remember reading Dr. Perry's comments about this and how this didn't make sense that "that wasn't even a treatment for subcutaneous emphysema". So instead of looking further of why Humes would write this, they simply wrote him off as incompetent.
    Next person to mention is Robert Groeden. I did get to shake Robert Groeden's hand in Dallas in 2012. It was a very sad time for him, he had recently lost his wife and you could tell he was very down. At Groeden's book stand were 2 men eager to help him sell books. I would like to remind people that Groeden was called as a defense witness in the OJ Simpson civil case. Groeden said a picture of OJ Simpson wearing a pair of "Bruno Magli" shoes was a forgery. The importance of Bruno Magli shoes is that at the murder scene Bruno Magli footprints were found and Bruno Magli is a shoe very few people wear. The basis for this claim of forgery was not believed and OJ lost the civil case. Groeden's lack of education was brought up.
    I have a hard time with Groeden. The Zapruder film was not shown until years after the JFK assassination. During that time I really believe the film was manipulated to show what was wanted to be shown. In the Warren Commission evidence only 2 frames of the film are shown. The shot from the grassy knoll was only diversion. As was told by many people, there were mysterious men there with a rifle but their angle was wrong for the shot that hit Kennedy. The CIA was part of this operation. I'm sure they learn diversion and distraction day 2 at Langley.
    Finally I would like to mention what Cyril Wecht stated that the 26 volumes of Warren Commission hearing testimony belongs in the fiction section. I want to disagree very strongly with this. Yes, people may have lied but their words were taken by the heros of the Kennedy assassination- the court reporters- who wrote down exactly what they said. Read what Allen Dulles said his little quips have loads of information behind them if you read between the lines. Read what Dr. Humes actually said instead of relying on what you hear on TV or read on the intranet by others. Read what the Parkland doctors actually did. Read what the HSCA about the bad amateurish quality of autopsy photos, photos that couldn't have possibly be done by John Stringer. In HSCA testimony and ARRB testimony you can actually hear and read the transcript testimony by the doctors and of John Stringer(the official photographer). Also what Robert Knudsen's family said. (Robert Knudsen was a white house photographer who said shooting the autopsy photos was hardest thing he had ever done.)
    If court reporters had been allowed to take testimony of witnesses to the 9-11 tragedy, things would be different. Of course Judy Wood's testimony would be the greatest.

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