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Thread: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    It would be interesting to speculate how different the world would be if this had never happened. Where would JFK have lead us I wonder? Certainly this planet took a turn down a very dark path because of it. Maybe now, karma is beginning to catch up with the perpetrators.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    As much as I do think there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy (and I don't think Oswald fired as shot).....I have a very hard time giving any credence to the theory that the limo driver shot him in plain site in front of thousands of people with no one seeing it happen. That just doesn't jive for me. However, there is another theory that the kill shot was fired (accidentally) from a secret service agent's gun when he was reacting to the hoopla in the moment (apparently he was handling a gun that was extremely sensitive that went off).

    Dave - Toronto
    Yep, the book you refer to is "Mortal Error:The Shot That Killed JFK": I've got it, read it ... and buried it

    Quote Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK is a 1992 non-fiction book by Bonar Menninger outlining a theory by sharpshooter, gunsmith and ballistics expert Howard Donahue that a Secret Service agent accidentally fired the shot that actually killed President John F. Kennedy.[1][2] Mortal Error was published by St Martin's Press in hardback, paperback, and audiobook.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

    ...once the autopsy photos were released, that's one of the "theories" that quickly fell apart, despite being very detailed. As it was largely based on the Warren Commission findings, it reached some equally flawed conclusions. It was established way before the movie "JFK", that the kill shot came from in front of Kennedy, it would have been impossible for the agent you mention to have done it, accidentally or otherwise, as he was in one of the following cars behind the limo (JFK).

    (Possible he may have fired one of the other shots, but accidentally? Hmmmmmmm )

    Many extraordinary things happen in plain sight - look at 9-11!
    (in JFK's case, it might explain the "disappearing" of the 18 key witnesses, many of who were standing "close by")

    We have to remember that this whole thing went down in less than nine seconds. Witnesses were often bullied, harrassed and challenged by "authorities" on what they claim they saw.

    The fact that so many items (& witnesses) were buried, hidden, distorted or lost indicates a conspiracy at the highest level, from the fudging of Oswald's photos holding a gun, the "unusual" (and Illegal) autopsy procedure, to the "matting" of the back of Kennedy's "official" skull photos, and the Warren Commission Report itself. The simple fact that the Zapbruder footage was so obviously tampered with, indicates there is something in that film that the perpetrators don't want us to see at any cost.

    If you really want to get into this, be prepared to spend a lot of time, and read a lot of books, and study a lot of pictures & videos

    (Have just checked - Pirate Bay does have a copy of THE KILLING OF AMERICA, but I have no idea of the quality - am DL it now and will let you know shortly - I am a nawti Elf!

    EDIT: Re the above download from PB; It's excellent quality and clearly shows "what's going on" - MKV format, 724 MB. The "un-enhanced" Zapbruder footage starts at the 15:23 mark - watch it at normal speed, then slow it down - VLC is a good player. (Some background leading up to this beforehand). Grab it while you can!
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 28th August 2016 at 10:06.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Storm Drain, yes. (The shooter was Johnny Roselli.)
    The X-Files certainly made allusions to the storm-drain theory in this 1996 episode 'Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man'. It's as good a possibility as any:



    (also, re James Files - seen and looked at this closely when the info came out, he also remains a strong possibility. Interesting, James Files - X-Files...)lol

    Jim Marrs has looked at the storm-drain shooter angle too:

    Quote I have heard about the possibility of a shot from the storm drain for many years and even met the daughter of a woman who said she and friends witnessed someone firing from the drain opening. But the mother refused to be interviewed and I have been unable to substantiate this story. I have always hesitated to discuss the storm drain because many years ago one of the earliest and best researchers, Penn Jones Jr., editor of the Midlothian Mirror, was ridiculed incessantly. Debunkers said he was claiming that Kennedy was shot "from a sewer." I have myself stood down in the storm drain which is located a mere six feet from the point of Kennedy’s fatal head shot. I could comfortably stand in this drain (I’m not too tall being 5’7”) and it would have been an easy pistol shot to a person sitting upright in an open convertible. Some witnesses said that one of the shots sounded hollow, had a ringing sound to it. And it could have been possible to leave the storm drain via a large drain pipe which connected to an opening behind the wooden picket fence on the notorious Grassy Knoll. But did a shot come from this drain? At the moment, there is not enough evidence to state yes, but it remains an interesting premise.

    An interesting sidebar to this speculation is the fact that in the 1980s a section running vertically down the Grassy knoll collapsed. The Dallas Street Dept. found that someone had dug up a section of this drain pipe and cut away a piece about 2 feet X 4 feet and replaced the cut section. But instead of welding the section back, whoever did this simply replaced the section on the pipe and over time it gave way causing a collapse at that point. There was some speculation that perhaps an assassin had stashed his weapon in the drain pipe and was retrieved surreptitiously at a later date. This drain was connected to the storm drain at the foot of the Grassy Knoll.
    Source: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313169/pg1

    Personally, I've changed my mind several times over the years on the details of the assassination. We have to be flexible when dealing with complex cases like this. There's still so much that is not known. What makes it often worse is the 'knowns', such as they are, sometimes conflict with other knowns. Owing to the huge controversy and importance of this watershed event, I would be all for a JFK-dedicated sub-forum. In the same vein, a Roswell sub-forum would be good also.
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    'Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man' was my favorite episode of X Files.

    Btw, I'm downloading the torrent now for The Killing Of America....thx for the tip.

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    C'mon Avalon mods...give us a sub-forum for the JFK assassination!!! As you can see, there's good interest here. Only seems fitting to have our own spot for multiple threads on the subject, doncha think??

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Quote I have myself stood down in the storm drain which is located a mere six feet from the point of Kennedy’s fatal head shot. I could comfortably stand in this drain (I’m not too tall being 5’7”) and it would have been an easy pistol shot to a person sitting upright in an open convertible.
    The Discovery documentary shows the drain coming up to waist-high on this man. Someone is lying, or they have changed the drain substantially.



    The drain is 6 feet from the head shot? Does that mean six feet from the car? If you look on Google Earth, things look much different.

    The drain is up past that car, closer to the street light than the stairs.



    A shooter in that drain probably could not even see JFK from there. And, if we want to say they stopped the car for the kill shot, they would have stopped it much closer to the drain.

    Mary Moorman pic, "capturing the presidential limousine a fraction of a second after the fatal shot":
    The drain is not right next to the car. It is down past those stairs. The shooter would have had to shoot through the windshield and the people in front of JFK. There's a much clearer shot from the fence.

    I've heard Jim Marrs play fast and loose with the facts before.

    I must be missing something regarding this drain theory.
    Last edited by blackdog; 28th August 2016 at 20:13.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    I'm actually more intrigued by the 2nd storm drain to the right of the overpass (interesting the the rumor that a car was parked over the man-hole cover for that drain at the time thereby preventing anyone from looking inside).

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    Other than 9/11, I'd think the JFK assassination would be the grand daddy of conspiracy theories. There's an entire cottage industry out there for it, yet no sub forum here at Avalon??

    I watched this video last night....and rate it one of the better ones of late.



    Dave - Toronto
    I'm sorry but I must disagree with you regarding this video. I find it cleverly twists the truth.
    Regarding Dr. Humes, he did burn his notes. Does it matter since the body he did the autopsy on was not Kennedy's? The real Kennedy had 2 chest tubes inserted and 3 cutdown's done for IV's none of these insertional wounds were present in the body he autopsied.
    Dr. Humes attempted to talk about the medical wounds but was interrupted by other members of the medical subcommittee for the HSCA. You need to read this. For the HSCA a group of doctors were gathered to discuss and listen to what had happened.
    Kilduff points to his right forehead as if that is where the bullet entered. None of the Parkland doctors said in their notes following the autopsy that a bullet entered the right forehead. Dr. Mccelland state a bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. Dr. Mccelland recanted this saying Dr. Jenkins had told him he felt a bullet wound to the left temple. Dr. Jenkins said he had felt a bullet wound in the left temple in his Warren Commission testimony. The Parkland doctors were interviewed individually by Arlen Specter in Dallas. To know what the Parkland doctors said you have to read their testimony. Also I would like to point out Kilduff went on to work for LBJ. Also there is a video showing that the trajectory from the grassy knoll would have resulted in a left parietal exit wound not a right parietal head wound.
    Regarding the 2 FBI agents: The video doesn't say their names, as I recall, but they were Siebert and O'Neill. Humes was confronted with what they said and he said he never said surgery.
    This video states the autopsy starts at 6pm. Kellerman was the officer in charge that day. He stated in WC testimony after a memory lapse that the autopsy started at 7:30pm. Humes also testified the autopsy started at 7:30pm.
    Officer of the day Dennis David said in a radio interview that a shipping casket with the president's body arrived around 6pm. Dennis also testified that as he was climbing the stairs he saw the ambulance carrying the bronze casket arrive. Jackie Kennedy emerged with her blood soaked pink suit. The bronze casket arrived the same time autopsy x-rays were being carried to the developing room.
    David Lifton states the body was removed from the airplane while LBJ was being sworn in. If the body that was autopsied was Kennedy's it would have chest tube wounds and IV wounds. (Have I said that enough times?)
    I would like to add a couple of personal notes here.
    Allen Dulles said words to the effect, "The American people don't read". I've learned that too.
    Last edited by Betty; 28th August 2016 at 22:43.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    And, if we want to say they stopped the car for the kill shot, they would have stopped it much closer to the drain.
    any closer and you wouldn't have a good angle for the shot, gotta be able to get an angle that can see over the door frame (not that a car door stops a rifle round..)
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    any closer and you wouldn't have a good angle for the shot, gotta be able to get an angle that can see over the door frame (not that a car door stops a rifle round..)
    He would be shooting through the windshield. If the shooter could see JFK at all, his view would have been obstructed by the front of the car and the other passengers. He also would have had to stick the gun into the street, unless there is an insane amount of room in there that we dont know about. I dont really see any way this is close to possible.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by Betty (here)
    None of the Parkland doctors said in their notes following the autopsy that a bullet entered the right forehead. Dr. Mccelland state a bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. Dr. Mccelland recanted this saying Dr. Jenkins had told him he felt a bullet wound to the left temple. Dr. Jenkins said he had felt a bullet wound in the left temple in his Warren Commission testimony. The Parkland doctors were interviewed individually by Arlen Specter in Dallas. To know what the Parkland doctors said you have to read their testimony. Also I would like to point out Kilduff went on to work for LBJ. Also there is a video showing that the trajectory from the grassy knoll would have resulted in a left parietal exit wound not a right parietal head wound.
    So what are you saying happened? A shot from the left? The doctors seem to contradict each other, the autopsy photos, and the Zapruder film, from my experience. Who are we supposed to believe?

    If they had the ability to alter the Zapruder film that much and that effectively, they could have left out the explosive wound in the right temple and made it look like a shot from above and behind, like the story they wanted us to believe. If there was no explosive wound in the front right, why would they alter it to look like there was and then give us the Oswald story?

    Arlen Specter also came up with the magic bullet theory.

    Edit: Or are you saying these doctors were describing wounds in a body that was not JFK's?
    Last edited by blackdog; 28th August 2016 at 23:21.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Oh sure, let's bring those killers to justice! The Super Rich Rulers can't wait for your next move!!!

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    They couldn't alter the Zapbruder footage too much in the day as it was 8mm film. (We need to keep in mind it was hidden for years. Early "tampering" was mostly limited to cropping & splicing - most of the "major" tampering has been done recently including the enhanced versions). Initially "they" altered the sequence of frames (as stills), presenting them in reverse order to make it look like the official conclusion, ie that Oswald did it. A blatant case of bending or altering the facts to fit the pre-ordained theory.

    When the actual movie footage became available (most likely not the original but a copy) and it was played as a movie, it became evident that certain frames had been chopped out (just split seconds but enough to hide or disguise the incriminating evidence which occurs near the fatal shot. Even in the version I cited (from THE KILLING OF AMERICA), the frames minutely "jump".

    The autopsy photos would appear to indicate that the fatal shot did come from the front and slightly to the left of Kennedy, at very close range (ie IN the car) - That's why I don't buy the drain theory, amongst the other reasons cited) - refer back to the images at post #23 and here. Look at the Zapbruder film just before the fatal shot (below) - Kennedy's head is turned to the left and downward. He's slumped against Jackie, now putting his head in the middle of the car, not the far right of the car as it was before the shooting. (Also note how many of these frames we see today, like the one below, have the two agents in front cropped out???)

    Name:  head1x.jpg
Views: 533
Size:  10.6 KB

    This a model based on the autopsy photos (Ironically, the original diagrams of the head wound weren't too far off, just in the wrong direction, ie shot fired from back to the front).

    Name:  frame312.jpg
Views: 572
Size:  89.4 KB

    Click image for larger version

Name:	JFKGroden-iv.jpg
Views:	8013
Size:	760.6 KB
ID:	34116

    More here:
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 29th August 2016 at 05:51.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Also note how many of these frames we see today, like the one below, have the two agents in front cropped out???
    History Channel banned censored episode The Men Who Killed Kennedy: "The Smoking Guns"

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Well spoken words by Mr Fetzer, Atlas - the coverup still continues to this day, 53 years after the fact.

    * Note: ONI is mentioned again (Office of Naval Intelligence) - this is effectively who Cooper worked for and ONI could be linked to Bethesda Naval Hospital

    * Despite loving that episode of the X-FILES too, I feel, that if it had been the "correct theory" (alluded to by a younger Smoking Man shooting from the drain), it would not have been "allowed" to be shown.

    "From the Warren Commission, (now
    officially disproved), four separate governmental groups and one
    independent, non-federal investigation have undertaken to
    discern the facts about the killing of JFK. The last official
    verdict
    , released in 1979 by the House Select Committee, stated
    that, “...President John F Kennedy was probably assassinated as
    a result of a conspiracy.”
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 29th August 2016 at 08:11.

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    This was in the news today ...

    The assassination of John F Kennedy in 1963 was an inside job, according to a deathbed confession given to the veteran film director Oliver Stone.
    ...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ver-Stone.html
    Sandie
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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    From todays headline page and news papers ....Related to a upcoming book on Oliver Stone....


    Former member of Kennedy's Presidential Security Team: JFK Assassination was an Inside Job

    By David on 29 August 2016 GMT



    In death-bed confession to director Oliver Stone, a former member of Kennedy’s
    security team has stated that the JFK assassination was an inside job and that a
    member of his own team had been responsible for firing on the president.

    Read more: Former member of Kennedy’s Presidential Security Team: JFK
    Assassination was an Inside Job

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ver-Stone.html

    'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed to Oliver Stone


    Published on 29 Aug 2016
    'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed 'someone from
    his team' killed the president in remarkable deathbed confession to director Oliver Stone


    ================================================== ====
    ================================================== ====

    MAIL ON LINE.....

    EXCLUSIVE -
    'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed 'someone from his
    team' killed the president in remarkable deathbed confession to director Oliver Stone
    An ex-presidential guard contacted Oliver Stone, who directed JFK biopic
    He claimed 'somebody from his team' assassinated the president in 1963
    Stone said he was convinced by his 'military jargon' and intricate details
    Lee Harvey Oswald was accused of shooting JFK from a nearby building

    By Dalya Alberge For Mailonline

    Published: 22:40, 28 August 2016 | Updated: 23:56, 28 August 2016

    The assassination of John F Kennedy in 1963 was an inside job, according to a deathbed
    confession given to the veteran film director Oliver Stone.After making his acclaimed
    film JFK - which was sympathetic to conspiracy theories about the murder - Stone was
    contacted by a man claiming to have been a former member of the presidential security
    team.Dying of cancer, the man wanted to share a secret that he had until then only told
    his son – that 'somebody from his own team… had fired on the President'.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4IihtcVZb
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    With everything else going down at the moment, Great Timing Oliver Stone!

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Quote Posted by blackdog (here)
    Arlen Specter also came up with the magic bullet theory.

    Edit: Or are you saying these doctors were describing wounds in a body that was not JFK's?
    So what are you saying happened? A shot from the left? The doctors seem to contradict each other, the autopsy photos, and the Zapruder film, from my experience. Who are we supposed to believe?

    If they had the ability to alter the Zapruder film that much and that effectively, they could have left out the explosive wound in the right temple and made it look like a shot from above and behind, like the story they wanted us to believe. If there was no explosive wound in the front right, why would they alter it to look like there was and then give us the Oswald story?

    Yes, I'm saying the bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. The video shows where the Parkland doctors saw the exit wound.
    All the autopsy findings have to be negated since the body that was officially autopsied was not Kennedy's. Kennedy had bilateral chest tube wounds and 3 cutdowns for intravenous fluid. One of Kennedy's cutdowns infiltrated causing swelling in one of the ankles. None of these medical wounds were found on the body Humes autopsied.
    Now for the story of the autopsy photos. The person who photographed the body at the Humes autopsy was John Stringer. The perfect person. He had top secret clearance. He was so good his photographs were published in books. He had received commendations for great work he had done in the past. He used a very old camera and he had to stand on a tripod. He wasn't allowed to put labels on his photos because they told him to hurry so much. He wasn't allowed to develop his photos. He was told it was top secret. The secret service took all the film. They first took it to the Executive Office Building where the secret service had their offices. They also had their own film developing room. Officially they said they took the film to Anacostia naval base. In the '90's the ARRB question workers at Anacostia. I forget Sandy's last name but she said she developed some film for the Secret Service but the autopsy photos the ARRB showed her were not the ones she developed. I believe the Secret Service developed the film in their own lab.
    The autopsy photos were not allowed to be shown at the Warren Commission hearings per the Kennedy family request. So to give his testimony Dr. Humes had a young student by the name of Rydberg draw drawing according to Hume's memory.
    In the '70's Andy Purdy (who now goes by the name Donald Purdy) has his name on the records supposedly of the testimony of 3 photographers all of whom said they took photos at the Kennedy assassination. John Stringer, Robert Knudsen, and Floyd Riebe.
    The information on John Stringer that I earlier wrote was from his ARRB testimony in the 1990's. The ARRB asked about John's testimony that Purdy had recorded for the HSCA in the 70's. John Stringer stated he did not recall giving any testimony to anyone and that the trip to the National Archives in the 70's he did not recall. Besides that there fundamental errors in the testimony recorded. Like his daughter's name and address.
    Purdy also has on record the testimony of Floyd Riebe. Floyd Riebe was Stringer's assistant. He hadn't even graduated yet from photography school. Stringer stated that Floyd Riebe was only allowed or asked to take some pictures of the crowd. Stringer states Riebe started taking pictures but then the secret service took away the small camera he had and ripped the film out of it.
    So anyway in Riebe's HSCA testimony he goes on and on about flash bulbs and that the FBI or SS was watching and counting how many flash bulbs he used.
    Riebe had to correct this when he gave his testimony to the ARRB. When Riebe has given interviews or testimony he's constantly contradicting him self. States flash bulbs when speed lights were used. Tells one person he took all the far shots and another all the close shots. When asked what camera he used he gives a list. Besides that Stringer states absolutely that Riebe was only an assisstant!
    The third person, Robert Knudsen. Before the Kennedys there was only one White House photographer. With the Kennedys being so active they needed 2 photographers, Robert Knudsen and Cecil Stoughton. The day of the assassination Robert Knudsen was home nursing an eye infection. When he heard the news he rushed down to Dallas.
    There is a typed transcript of Knudsen's testimony to the HSCA. The recording that the government has labeled as Knudsen's testimony is bizarre. It starts out as a secretary talking into a dictaphone thing, then it goes on to recording of congressional committees. The thing is that at the National Archives when you ask for this recording they give it to saying it is Knudsen's testimony not there any errors on it. Knudsen's wife stated he was upset he was never given a transcript of his testimony.
    What he did in Dallas was reported by his wife, daughter and son to the ARRB. Knudsen said taking the autopsy photos was the hardest thing he had ever done.
    John Stringer was the photographer at the Hume's autopsy.
    Robert Knudsen was the photographer at the JFK autopsy.
    Floyd Riebe did not take photos as either autopsy.
    By the way that comment I made about Americans don't read, I shouldn't have said that. Maybe if I wrote better, people wound understand what I'm trying to say!!!
    Last edited by Paul; 29th August 2016 at 23:21. Reason: fix quoting

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    Default Re: JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

    Regarding the president's brain, Hume's stated that the autopsy of the brain was done 1 or 2 days later. The brain was then given to Dr. Burkley http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hs...stodyChain.pdf
    I think Vincent Bugliosi has the best explanation of what happened to the brain. Robert Kennedy took possession of all the autopsy materials in April 1965. In Bugliosi's book,"Reclaiming History" he has a picture of Robert and Ted Kennedy with a metal box at their feet with the JFK's grave being re-dug. Bugliosi believes the Kennedy's themselves did not want the brain on display and had it buried with Kennedy. Which I think was their right.
    O'Connor's statement about the brain being just goo and being gone is a little weird.

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