Feelings

[jimrich]

Dear Seekers:
I have attended a lot of sharing meetings where survivors of abuse and dysfunctional families talk about their FEELINGS. At first I had nothing to say because I just had no words to describe the very few feelings I could even identify but was also trapped in fear and shame since nobody in my family ever honestly talked about their feelings until they EXPLODED! (were triggered!)
But after listening to a lot of "old timers" easily talk about and label their feelings, I began to acquire the words and phrases to both identify and talk about my feelings as they were beginning to come to the surface like a volcanic eruption out of a very unhappy and traumatic past that I had somehow forgotten all about. I always knew that something was very wrong with my parents and our family but had no idea how to name or understand the situation so I just went through my childhood and into my teens and beyond believing that we were all "NORMAL".
So, thanks to some good role models at sharing meetings, I got pretty good at identifying and naming my feelings and even better at talking and writing about how I felt - especially about PAINFUL or FEARFUL things and events. I used to rehearse my shares and study words in my Thesaurus to find bigger and better ways to talk about sex, incest, violence and violations, private body parts ... using legitimate, dictionary words instead of street slang and many other sensitive and frightening or Shaming things and words that I only felt comfortable speaking about to very close friends but never in mixed company.

So what does any of this have to do with Spirituality and awakening???

Since sharing meetings, where we all became comfortable with our feelings and talking about them, I've noticed that many folks, including Spiritual Seekers, have trouble talking about their feelings and either can't talk about the very few feelings they can identify or are AFRAID to talk about their feelings on any subject.
I watched a Nome video where he asked a few Seekers how do they KNOW that they "exist" and none of them had an answer.
I was sitting here SCREAMING at the monitor and saying, "YOU FEEL IT!" I know because I can FEEL THAT I EXIST!!! The Seekers in Nome's video had no clue how to answer that simple question other than to offer a few silly non-dual platitudes about self knowledge from up in their heads but not from their hearts.
The same thing happened tonight at a Non-duality discussion group in Santa Monica where the topic was: What is Real and what is not Real. I said I now something is Real because I can FEEL IT. They all looked at me like I was insane. I asked the leader how Reality FEELS to him and his face just went blank. I asked the man next to me to tell me how Reality FEELS to him and he began saying that It can't be spoken of and some other HEADY Advaitic platitudes.
I said that I could easily talk about how Reality feels to me so the leader CHALLENGED me to describe this Reality. I said it feels like: Happiness, joy, wonder, permanent, light, soft, clean, real, pleasant, fun and on and on because I have the words and phrases that apparently none of them have and I felt safe and entitled to speak my truth.
They all began to tear my comments apart with non-dual platitudes about how Reality cannot be spoken of or described and words are not real nor true and on and on with those non-dual dismissals of anything that does not neatly fit into their non-dual concepts of Reality and someone's ability to talk about it.
I just let them tear my testimony apart because at least I know the truth of my own perceptions and FEELINGS.
One man ask if this description of my feelings was coming from my ego or the Real and I said it's coming from Reality just as I feel it in this moment. Nobody judged that.

So my recommendation to any Seekers is to get a dictionary or thesaurus and begin learning how to recognize and maybe even talk about your feelings - spiritual or psychological - so that when you encounter Reality, you will know how to FEEL IT and you won't need to safely stay in your head to watch it from a distance.
Reality is much better FELT than just mentally conceived of. But don't be surprised when your non-dual friends look at you like your nuts because now you can FEEL something and then talk about your FEELINGS. They just want safe and accepted mental concepts and platitudes but not anything real like FEELINGS!

[ElfeMya]

Hey Jimrich, thanks for this post.
Maybe because I have a similar personal journey ( abuse in childhood, thinkin gthe family is normal and having to learn how to express feelings and identifying them etc. ) but I relate to what you put in the post and came to the same conclusions. I , like a lot os survivors, used my brainy perspective to shiled myself from the pain and horror of abuse and my journey home was to get back in my body, take its control back ( opposed to having it taken away by abuse/abuser ) and feel . It is still an ongoing process and there is a parth to home that is in the body and in the feelings and in all the things human regarded by some as second class/ to be avoided / not good enough etc.
All is one and one is all they say. Another hint of this is the similarities between waht is incredibly small and the structure of the Universe.
In the end, going inside of myself ( despite the teachings telling me to stop feeling , to cut myself from who I was ) gave me more than ignoring myself. I felt and I knew if things were true from the feelings I had, enabling the intuition and a whole bunch of great things and insights to happen because I was feeling.
It also increased the ability to feel others and communicate and be together.
Words are only such a little part of what is said between beings...
So yes for feelings and learning to name them and identify them and celebrate them fearlessly, they are like lights on the canvas of the beings and they are pretty beautiful even when it is unpleasant to have them.
<3 to you .

[BMJ]

That is is the best therapy, that is expressing yourself no matter if it is in words or emotion as often as need be, for example by crying when a moment calls for it.
As you said jimrich people seem to be overly concerned about how people perceive them especially men, they don't want to be seen as weak.
And most men don't realise showing any ability to express their pain by for example crying is actually a sign of knowing one self and being of strong character.

And all you can do is lead by example as you have, good work there jimrich, and remind these people they are human.

[jimrich]

Posted by BMJ (here)
That is is the best therapy, that is expressing yourself no matter if it is in words or emotion as often as need be, for example by crying when a moment calls for it.

Re: crying.
Shortly into Recovery work, I began to spontaneously weep and sob A LOT. This went on for a long time but I finally released a lot of the bottled up pain and RAGE that I'd stuffed down over all those years prior to therapy. It often puzzled me why my 1st guru did not see that my main problem in life was a rotten childhood and not just: bad Karma, home-sickness for heaven, bad past lives, genes, stupidity, or some other "acceptable" reason for my troubled behaviors. I was emotionally damaged but not him nor anybody else could see that until I entered therapy and then the awareness of my rotten past exposed the real truth.
Spirituality was part of the process, in the form of a Higher Power, BUT plain old psychological methods, like Grief work and Anger work, helped me vent those powerful yet damaged feelings TO THE MAX!
If I'd stayed with Spiritual concepts, I'd still be carrying a huge load of rage, sorrow, fear and unexpressed LOVE inside of me.
This probably seems quite egotistical but, feeling and expressing my bottle up feelings just had to be done. It was do or die so I went at it very seriously for a long time.
It's been said that therapy and psychological methods only apply to fixing the ego and I agree but I had to fix my ego before I could find the courage to go looking for and then trying out Spiritual things like: Meditation, Who/what am I? or Awakening to find something BEYOND my ego.
We did "meditation" in therapy but I couldn't get past the sorrow, anger and humiliation (of the ego) that was stuffed down inside of me (the ego) so spiritual things just didn't appeal to me at that time. I was just TOO ANGRY - all the time - once I allowed those feelings to come alive, be felt and then discharged or vented.
So, while staying in one's head and intellectualizing everything, like most "Spiritual Seekers" do, may seem safe and RIGHTEOUS, I had to finally and HONESTLY feel what I felt and then discharge those feelings in the safest way I could.
I see this pattern of NO FEELINGS all through society but mostly in Religious/Spiritual people who may believe they've found the perfect solution to a bad childhood or early trauma. IMO, most of them will have to face and deal with the feelings they are trying to hold down and ignore and that may happen when some of them get CANCER or some other horrifying affliction because those bottled up, repressed feelings will not be ignored and denied any longer so they show up as PAIN in different ways.
Your feelings are simply SCREAMING for release and, if they cannot get your attention one way, they will get your attention in another, perhaps more PAINFUL and serious way like chronic back pain, arthritis, cancer, heart problems and other deadly and PAINFUL illness - like my late wife endured before she left this plane.
In therapy it was often said: "Feel what you feel."

[jimrich]

Thanks for your reply.

Posted by ElfeMya (here)
All is one and one is all they say.

There are 100s of these seemingly meaningful platitudes and cliches throughout spirituality and Advaita that might comfort some folks but I see them as reinforcing the idea that we can just stay in our heads and minds and NEVER go down into our unwanted and untrustworthy feelings. Just stay in the mind and intellect and be safe up there! Or worse, get into the INDIFFERENCE zone where nothing matters and all is the same - just DON'T FEEL (or you'll look stupid)!

So yes for feelings and learning to name them and identify them and celebrate them fearlessly, they are like lights on the canvas of the beings and they are pretty beautiful even when it is unpleasant to have them.
<3 to you .

And to you,
jim

[jimrich]

In going over some of my Enlightenment/Non-dual literature, I notice that many teachers focus on "Thought" and "Thoughts" to the exclusion of feelings. Perhaps these teachers believe that the Seekers/Students will AUTOMATICALLY include feelings with these "Thought" concepts so there's no need to mention feelings. It could also be that the teachers fear or suspect mere feelings so they prefer to stay up in their heads with Thought rather than wade around in the icky sludge of FEELINGS.
To each his own!
I like to stay with feelings as did Ramana Maharshi, who said, "It's the feeling, I am - and no thoughts." I suppose he dropped thoughts because he knew that the Self or Being is more of a felt experience or reality than thinking is.
Long before our minds begin to formulate "thoughts" we are feeling creatures. We feel our reality or the Reality because we are alive - not dead!
If you, as a baby, had been asked the question who/what are you?, would you have said, "Well, I think that I am such and such." or would you have said, "I feel such and such..." If asked, "How do you know that you exist?", would you, a baby, say, "I think I know." or would you have said, "I FEEL ALIVE!"
I "am" because I feel it! I am not DEAD! I might be able to come up with some words or sentences AFTER I realize that I exist but at this moment, sitting here & typing I FEEL ALIVE.
How about you? Do you FEEL alive? What does being alive feel like to you? How do you know you are alive? What keeps you still alive even after you body has died?
My late wife is just as alive right now as she was while in the earth plane. How does she know this? Is it a bunch of thoughts, feelings or both? Her feelings over there are somewhat different than ours over here but she is still able to FEEL: joy, happiness, pleasure, fun, excitement but not very much if any: fear, sorrow, anger, jealousy, etc. She still FEELS things even when not THINKING about them!
When we are in deep sleep have we stopped thinking and feeling or are we still feeling something but not able to name it after we awaken?
Do we come out of deep sleep: happy, relaxed, pleased, joyous, smiling, OK and if yes, why is that? Why is deep sleep so wonderful and pleasing? Some say it is as close as most of us ever get to our real and authentic nature or self which is: Peace, happiness, joy, fun, freedom, comfort, goodness, bliss and a lot of other positives.
I come out of deep sleep FEELING very good and then my mind/ego comes along to either take credit for "doing it" or laughs it all off as no bid deal. My ego wants to believe that it can do a better job of making me feel positive things than my own basic nature can and does effortlessly.
LOL, my ego feels very differently to me than Reality so, I'm sticking with feelings to know the difference, for now.

[ElfeMya]

Posted by jimrich (here)
Thanks for your reply.

Posted by ElfeMya (here)
All is one and one is all they say.

There are 100s of these seemingly meaningful platitudes and cliches throughout spirituality and Advaita that might comfort some folks but I see them as reinforcing the idea that we can just stay in our heads and minds and NEVER go down into our unwanted and untrustworthy feelings. Just stay in the mind and intellect and be safe up there! Or worse, get into the INDIFFERENCE zone where nothing matters and all is the same - just DON'T FEEL (or you'll look stupid)!

So yes for feelings and learning to name them and identify them and celebrate them fearlessly, they are like lights on the canvas of the beings and they are pretty beautiful even when it is unpleasant to have them.
<3 to you .

And to you,
jim

Hey Jim, thanks for the hugs ! Love them hugs !

What I meant ( and failed to get across, argh ) about this all is one is that feelings are part of the whole and not to be discarded. Through feelings one can reach the ... light ? don't know how to say it now... anyway, through feelings we can reach home. :-)
From the studies I read and saw, the indiference is cultivated by our actual lifestyles because they suppress the natural compassion and will to reach out and be together and not separate everyone. I too came across that message that feelings are " bad". I thought that was true and that led to even more self hatred and self rejection while feelings and emtoions were feasting on my dead inner space. Not a pleasant time.
In the end, yes people being vulnerbale and expressing their felings are disregarded ( stupid, weak etc. ) however to me it makes us stronger and grounded and feelings and emotions are like having super powers.

Mwwwaaassss.
Em.

[neutronstar]

Posted by jimrich (here)
Dear Seekers:

I said that I could easily talk about how Reality feels to me so the leader CHALLENGED me to describe this Reality. I said it feels like: Happiness, joy, wonder, permanent, light, soft, clean, real, pleasant, fun and on and on because I have the words and

This is a tricky one because on one hand it is good to talk about your feelings from a therapy standpoint.

From a spiritual standpoint feeling can only be understood by the person feeling them. You cannot properly describe a feeling with a word. The same word has different meanings for different people. For example, some people associate love with joy or happiness, where another may associate love with pain or loss.

Feelings are truth, words are lies. When you want to speak to source (God), source will answer with a feeling, not a word. If the answer comes back as a word, it will be the ego, and it will be a lie. That comes from the book "Conversations with God" and it sounds true to me.

[AutumnW]

Jim Rich,

You caught them off guard by being sense-ible. I find people that engage in long winded, stream of consciousness bafflegab are often brought up short by simple common sense. I remember whenI was a young hippy girl, how these 'cool dudes' would try to acquire a harem by speaking such a load of sh** it was just unbelievable.

You weren't supposed to describe the real with words? I bet it didn't stop any of them though!

[AutumnW]

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Dear Seekers:

I said that I could easily talk about how Reality feels to me so the leader CHALLENGED me to describe this Reality. I said it feels like: Happiness, joy, wonder, permanent, light, soft, clean, real, pleasant, fun and on and on because I have the words and

This is a tricky one because on one hand it is good to talk about your feelings from a therapy standpoint.

From a spiritual standpoint feeling can only be understood by the person feeling them. You cannot properly describe a feeling with a word. The same word has different meanings for different people. For example, some people associate love with joy or happiness, where another may associate love with pain or loss.

Feelings are truth, words are lies. When you want to speak to source (God), source will answer with a feeling, not a word. If the answer comes back as a word, it will be the ego, and it will be a lie. That comes from the book "Conversations with God" and it sounds true to me.

Emotions are pretty universal. We all understand emotional pain grief joy etc...Even the nuances of emotion, if described in an articulate way, can be apprehended by most, with facial expression matching the emotion, similar from one person to the next. The similarity of facial expression supports the idea that emotional states are similarly felt, universally experienced.

There is a whole lot of bunk out there revolving around the ,"well how do you know for sure?" People get tied in ridiculous cognitive knots trying to work through the obvious.

[neutronstar]

Posted by AutumnW (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Dear Seekers:

I said that I could easily talk about how Reality feels to me so the leader CHALLENGED me to describe this Reality. I said it feels like: Happiness, joy, wonder, permanent, light, soft, clean, real, pleasant, fun and on and on because I have the words and

This is a tricky one because on one hand it is good to talk about your feelings from a therapy standpoint.

From a spiritual standpoint feeling can only be understood by the person feeling them. You cannot properly describe a feeling with a word. The same word has different meanings for different people. For example, some people associate love with joy or happiness, where another may associate love with pain or loss.

Feelings are truth, words are lies. When you want to speak to source (God), source will answer with a feeling, not a word. If the answer comes back as a word, it will be the ego, and it will be a lie. That comes from the book "Conversations with God" and it sounds true to me.

Emotions are pretty universal. We all understand emotional pain grief joy etc...Even the nuances of emotion, if described in an articulate way, can be apprehended by most, with facial expression matching the emotion, similar from one person to the next. The similarity of facial expression supports the idea that emotional states are similarly felt, universally experienced.

There is a whole lot of bunk out there revolving around the ,"well how do you know for sure?" People get tied in ridiculous cognitive knots trying to work through the obvious.

For the most part you're right. In our day to day life communicating with other humans it is good enough.

But from a spiritual perspective communicating with source. I can completely the other view I described.

[ElfeMya]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Jim Rich,

You caught them off guard by being sense-ible. I find people that engage in long winded, stream of consciousness bafflegab are often brought up short by simple common sense. I remember whenI was a young hippy girl, how these 'cool dudes' would try to acquire a harem by speaking such a load of sh** it was just unbelievable.

You weren't supposed to describe the real with words? I bet it didn't stop any of them though!

I relate to the harem creation frenzy by some so called spiritual men. The ones I met were aesthetically good looking, were talking all the right words but they had no susbtance ( feelings and emotions for eample ) to back it up...
All bla bla and no real actions to go with it except when it was about getting younger than them women to fulfill their needs.
Yuck.

[AutumnW]

Jim, I am so happy for you. You have found one of the key pieces of the puzzle of life. Many people go around and around the cul-de-sac of pseudo-intellect, searching, when they should be seeking that key piece, in the neighbourhood, where mind, heart and feelings ALL meet.

I had 5 years of therapy to understand myself. It seems self indulgent to some, but I am a much better, kinder person for it --and easier on myself and others (usually)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by ElfeMya (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Jim Rich,

You caught them off guard by being sense-ible. I find people that engage in long winded, stream of consciousness bafflegab are often brought up short by simple common sense. I remember whenI was a young hippy girl, how these 'cool dudes' would try to acquire a harem by speaking such a load of sh** it was just unbelievable.

You weren't supposed to describe the real with words? I bet it didn't stop any of them though!

I relate to the harem creation frenzy by some so called spiritual men. The ones I met were aesthetically good looking, were talking all the right words but they had no susbtance ( feelings and emotions for eample ) to back it up...
All bla bla and no real actions to go with it except when it was about getting younger than them women to fulfill their needs.
Yuck.

Yep double yuck. I would add "BARF" to that sentiment as well!

[jimrich]

Posted by neutronstar (here)
You cannot properly describe a feeling with a word.

I can! Sharing meetings taught me how to articulate any feeling and it never mattered to me if anybody else understood what I felt, said or did not say.

That comes from the book "Conversations with God" and it sounds true to me.

I don't get my knowledge or understanding from books.
When I talk with Source, I am Source and Source can respond in any way IT sees fit - with words, feelings, actions, dreams, fantasies, etc.

[jimrich]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Jim Rich,
You caught them off guard by being sense-ible.

You weren't supposed to describe the real with words?

IMO, they are speechless because they simply do not have any adequate words for the very few feelings that they can identify so they clam up rather than look and sound STUPID. I met many of them inside and outside of sharing meetings. It isn't that they are stupid - just uneducated in the art of putting words onto their feelings. My late wife worked crossword puzzles a lot but simply COULD NOT put words to her feelings so I stopped pestering her about how she felt. I see this in nearly everyone I know and especially on the web. Folks simply cannot say how they feel! It's just to frightening, embarrassing or PAINFUL to open up and let others see what is or is NOT inside of us! This is especially true of American men!

[raff]

Hey Jimrich you need a bit of Jeff Foster in your life (excuse me i can't post his videos from Utube)
But a good vid to start would be "How I freed myself from Ego in 7 days (and you can too)" - Jeff Foster.
Hes got a lot of interesting info and I think this will be right up your street.
Regards

[BMJ]

Posted by jimrich (here)

Posted by BMJ (here)
That is is the best therapy, that is expressing yourself no matter if it is in words or emotion as often as need be, for example by crying when a moment calls for it.

Re: crying.
Shortly into Recovery work, I began to spontaneously weep and sob A LOT. This went on for a long time but I finally released a lot of the bottled up pain and RAGE that I'd stuffed down over all those years prior to therapy. It often puzzled me why my 1st guru did not see that my main problem in life was a rotten childhood and not just: bad Karma, home-sickness for heaven, bad past lives, genes, stupidity, or some other "acceptable" reason for my troubled behaviors. I was emotionally damaged but not him nor anybody else could see that until I entered therapy and then the awareness of my rotten past exposed the real truth.
Spirituality was part of the process, in the form of a Higher Power, BUT plain old psychological methods, like Grief work and Anger work, helped me vent those powerful yet damaged feelings TO THE MAX!
If I'd stayed with Spiritual concepts, I'd still be carrying a huge load of rage, sorrow, fear and unexpressed LOVE inside of me.
This probably seems quite egotistical but, feeling and expressing my bottle up feelings just had to be done. It was do or die so I went at it very seriously for a long time.
It's been said that therapy and psychological methods only apply to fixing the ego and I agree but I had to fix my ego before I could find the courage to go looking for and then trying out Spiritual things like: Meditation, Who/what am I? or Awakening to find something BEYOND my ego.
We did "meditation" in therapy but I couldn't get past the sorrow, anger and humiliation (of the ego) that was stuffed down inside of me (the ego) so spiritual things just didn't appeal to me at that time. I was just TOO ANGRY - all the time - once I allowed those feelings to come alive, be felt and then discharged or vented.
So, while staying in one's head and intellectualizing everything, like most "Spiritual Seekers" do, may seem safe and RIGHTEOUS, I had to finally and HONESTLY feel what I felt and then discharge those feelings in the safest way I could.
I see this pattern of NO FEELINGS all through society but mostly in Religious/Spiritual people who may believe they've found the perfect solution to a bad childhood or early trauma. IMO, most of them will have to face and deal with the feelings they are trying to hold down and ignore and that may happen when some of them get CANCER or some other horrifying affliction because those bottled up, repressed feelings will not be ignored and denied any longer so they show up as PAIN in different ways.
Your feelings are simply SCREAMING for release and, if they cannot get your attention one way, they will get your attention in another, perhaps more PAINFUL and serious way like chronic back pain, arthritis, cancer, heart problems and other deadly and PAINFUL illness - like my late wife endured before she left this plane.
In therapy it was often said: "Feel what you feel."

You are a very wise man Jimrich, and that is the perfect post on this topic.

[Sueanne47]

"my main problem in life was a rotten childhood" *PLEASE* explain Jimrich! what happened? how were you abused? you have LOTS of new friends here that wanna help..

also about crying, Chief Golden Light Eagle explains about crying, and how it will cleans you and make you feel better

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6zJyjwJnHHo

[neutronstar]

Posted by jimrich (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
You cannot properly describe a feeling with a word.

I can! Sharing meetings taught me how to articulate any feeling and it never mattered to me if anybody else understood what I felt, said or did not say.

That comes from the book "Conversations with God" and it sounds true to me.

I don't get my knowledge or understanding from books.
When I talk with Source, I am Source and Source can respond in any way IT sees fit - with words, feelings, actions, dreams, fantasies, etc.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you need to come up with a word to describe to yourself, a feeling that you felt?

And to think you can properly describe a feeling to another person with words......well is there any women reading this post that has had a child? Would you please tell me if you can describe to me in words so I can understand as well as you, what it felt like to have a child growing inside you. Or better yet could somebody have told you before hand what it was like?

As for not getting information from books, why not? Books are written by people and source dwells in all people as well as all things. In fact everything that exists is source.

20 years ago I was lead to a book that lead to my first spiritual awakening of sorts. It changed my understanding of why I was here. It was "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton. Two years later my life fell apart and if it wasn't for that book, I would have taken my own life.

I am alive today because of a man I have never met who shared some information in a book. Knowledge can come from anywhere, especially other human beings. Why ignore them.

[neutronstar]

Jimrich

I also had a childhood that was bad filled with physical and psychological abuse. Although with me it was the opposite then you. Therapy never worked. It was the spiritual where I am finding peace. We each respond to different things.