Why Antioxidants Are BAD For You

[norman]

Where does energy come from ?

Ari Whitten was buried in the scientific literature for two years looking for a an answer to a nagging question: where does energy really come from in the body?

Along the path he discovered a concept called Hormesis which is rooted in new scientific understanding of cellular biology. Essentially, “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” is alive and well in the human body. Hormetic stressors stimulate the body to produce for mitochondria which, in turn, produce more energy for us. This means more powerhouses to burn calories and charge our lives.

What are Hormetic stressors? Exercise is the most notable one. It taxes the body which stimulates growth and positive epigenetic expression. This is all over the literature and most people know about it. So what are the others? Heat, cold, and certain phytonutrients also act as Hormetic stressors. Ari spent two full years researching this concept (he’s in good company with other experts) and has been implementing Hormetic practices in both diet and exercise with people around the world.


Are Antioxidants Beneficial?

What I found particularly interesting about the interview was the way it challenges the dominant theory of aging which revolves around oxidative stress. If this were the case, then antioxidants would offset tissue damage and cellular aging. Essentially, the thinking has been that the fallout from oxidation drives the aging process, but according to Ari, most serious aging experts have already moved on from that thesis. Why? Because experiments have shown post-exercise use of antioxidants has not shown the promised results.....


well(dot)org

http://theurbanmonk.com/antioxidants-are-bad-for-you/

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KJoLlKG2hhA

[lucidity]

Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Vitamin A, .... all anti-oxidants, right ?
Too little vitamin C causes scurvy....
Too little vitamin A can lead to night blindness...
Too little vitamin E can degrade the condition of your skin and internal tissues..

We can NOT do without vitamins A, C and E.

This thread is a load of hogwash... isn't it ?

[phillipbbg]

Don't panic the vitamin C molecule is coated in "ascorbic acid" which nature designed to protect the molecule from oxidising before serving its purpose. Anti oxidents are by there nature there to protect something...

You have to work out why nature uses particular types of anti-oxidents to protect certain molecules from oxidation and then decide if you have a use for them. Just taking anti oxidents yes seems pointless . Especially if you take ascorbic acid which in itself is natures answer to protecting a Natural Vitamin C molecule. Pharma love this game of selling you only one part of the whole sort of like selling you the wrapping with nothing inside lol What a dream business ....

[DeDukshyn]

Here ya all go; this is well researched incredibly professional opinion ...:

https://drnibber.com/antioxidants-orac/

https://drnibber.com/antioxidants-pa...villains-hero/

[zen deik]

Balance.....moderation....exercise.....sleep.....work n...play

[Eram]

Perhaps the thread would benefit from a change in title norman, since it does not cover the topic and might even act as a repellent.
Not many people might be willing to invest energy in a claim that seems so bizarre at first glance.

I found the interview to be highly interesting and it basically explains a wide range of stimulants that the physical body system can use to generate more energy and become more fit.

- physical exercise
- hot and cold changes
- UV light
- plant phyto chemicals (found in the whole spectrum of fruit and vegetables)
- small doses of toxins (radiation, arsenic etc)
- xeno biotic hormeses (foreign substances to the body, like caffeine and nicotine)
- free radicals and oxidants (This is why taking anti oxidants after a workout prevents the body system to benefit from the short burst of oxidants that are produced during the workout)


So basically, many stressors, when applied in the right dosage stimulate the mitochondria (energy generators) to make more of them and become more active, resulting in being more fit and energetic.

[Eram]

Interesting,
This youtube claims that studies have found that indeed anti oxidant supplements like ascorbic acid and vitamin E may prevent the body to get the cellular adaptation after an exercie, but whole plant based nutrients, coming from foods like black berries (who have much anti oxidants) do not have this effect. They even enhance the adaptation process, so they say.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fvQDNfaWTck

[Olaf]

I am working as a natural healer since 1999, and I have included orthemolecular treatment and mitochondrial therapy since 2009.

Of course oxidative and nitrosative stress up to a certain degree is a normal element of human cell functions and it even helps to improve it, because it triggers sorting out and repair mechanisms.
But that only works, when the antioxidative system is fully working.

Problems rise, when intermediate chemical stress changes to a chronic burden of free radicals.
Than the limited amount of physiologic antioxidants in the body gets totally consumed, and after that you don't have any protection anymore.

The result:

• Deficiencies of vitamin C, vitamin E, alpha lipon acid, omega 3 fatty acids, glutathione, Q10 and others
• Loss of basic cell functions

If only one of these substances is missing the whole antioxidative chain can't work anymore, because all of these substances depend from the function of the others.

Most of these antioxidants are in their first function necessary for proper mitochondrial function in the cells. The antioxidative properties of these substances are only a side effect. So if they are oxidated they cannot longer perform their natural functions, such as

• convert sugar (pyruvate) into a agent that can be transformed into energy (ATP) in the krebs cycle (alpha lipon acid)
• produce ATP from the output substances of the krebs cycle (Q10)

Two of my patients died by cancer, which was generated by very high levels of nitrosative stress. The reason for this gigantic levels of NO in both cases were:

• jogging and running marathons
• mountain climbing to very great heights

Even shortly before their death they did not stop with these hobbies so that it was not possible to reduce their gigantic levels of nitrosative stress (which can be measured by the amount of citrullin in urine).


One real story about the power of antioxidants.

One of my most impressive cases was a 17 years old boy, who was lying in hospital for 6 weeks after he had an inflammation of his lungs.
He was so weakened - he could not even get out of bed.

His father asked me on the telephone for help. I said "In the case of pneumonia homeopathic treatment is really difficult. But you can try giving him some anti oxidants, because pneumonia is producing gigantic amounts of nitrosative stress (NO), which blocks cell functions in the whole body. Just cook him a Cistus tea and let him drink it."

The man went to his son, let him drink 4 cups of cistus tea. Six hours later the son got out of the bed, left the hospital and went to school the next week.

[norman]

Thanks for the sanity checks.

I knew the thread title was likely to push a button or two.

I use Sodium Ascorbate sometimes when I feel my heart is struggling. I chose S.Ascorbate over Ascorbic Acid because I read that it's more gut friendly.

The idea that an antioxidant could be bad for me was interesting enough to share here.

[Hym]

Thanks, Olaf. The information is spot on. It will help many understand the nature of the human adaptogenic process, as it is connected not only on a bio-chemical level but connected to the depth of the entirety of life itself, on the soul level.

This may seem far from the core of this thread but I have never disconnected my understanding and experiences of the chemistry of the brain, the digestive system and those things people have been taught as being separate and emotional. Many look at the addict and overlook the effect of how the individual adapted to an unnatural stress in their lives.

Being born with an addiction gave me a nonjudgmental view on addiction and this view developed into a natural understanding of the ability we all carry to heal. In my son's case his in utero adaptation to his mother's hidden use of meth gave him the dyslexia that he adapted to by becoming someone with a beautiful musical ability, reading at college level by his early teens and enhancing his ability to accurately perceive intention in others. Dismissing, as we often do, the outward signs of illness and throwing away the person means we have not discovered the reason for adapting into something so destructive.

In my case I adapted to extreme physical abuse, and retreated from consciously leaving my body, by developing an endurance that allowed me to reach a state of separation from the pain and find comfort in awareness. I see that my experiences give me a homeopathic formula into healing illnesses in others. The cellular memory of the extreme is not disconnected from the imprint on awareness and those things that drive people to sickness.

Stepping in and out of the stress and living in that awareness allows us the peace to perceive the beauty and appreciate the subtle power of attention for the bigger truths that humanity will allow itself to experience. Removing the experience and the stress entirely, consciously is very unhealthy.

Oxidation is part of the journey. It is an integral part of the energetic of life.

[Mike]

It's all very interesting, but if one is truly curious as to whether antioxidants really work, all one has to do is try them.

Of course not all supplements are created equal. My father took supplements for years and reported little success. Thing is, he was taking store brand crap from Walgreens. Once I got him on the right stuff, he was a believer.

If one really needs a study or an experiment, i'd suggest doing it on oneself. You can pie chart yourself to death with this stuff, but its all really unnecessary. Find yourself a high quality multivitamin, preferably liquid, high orac value etc, and let it work on your systems for at least 30 days. You'll have your answer then. My 2 cents

[TrumanCash]

Posted by Olaf (here)
I am working as a natural healer since 1999, and I have included orthemolecular treatment and mitochondrial therapy since 2009.

Of course oxidative and nitrosative stress up to a certain degree is a normal element of human cell functions and it even helps to improve it, because it triggers sorting out and repair mechanisms.
But that only works, when the antioxidative system is fully working.

Problems rise, when intermediate chemical stress changes to a chronic burden of free radicals.
Than the limited amount of physiologic antioxidants in the body gets totally consumed, and after that you don't have any protection anymore.

The result:

• Deficiencies of vitamin C, vitamin E, alpha lipon acid, omega 3 fatty acids, glutathione, Q10 and others
• Loss of basic cell functions

If only one of these substances is missing the whole antioxidative chain can't work anymore, because all of these substances depend from the function of the others.

Most of these antioxidants are in their first function necessary for proper mitochondrial function in the cells. The antioxidative properties of these substances are only a side effect. So if they are oxidated they cannot longer perform their natural functions, such as

• convert sugar (pyruvate) into a agent that can be transformed into energy (ATP) in the krebs cycle (alpha lipon acid)
• produce ATP from the output substances of the krebs cycle (Q10)

Two of my patients died by cancer, which was generated by very high levels of nitrosative stress. The reason for this gigantic levels of NO in both cases were:

• jogging and running marathons
• mountain climbing to very great heights

Even shortly before their death they did not stop with these hobbies so that it was not possible to reduce their gigantic levels of nitrosative stress (which can be measured by the amount of citrullin in urine).


One real story about the power of antioxidants.

One of my most impressive cases was a 17 years old boy, who was lying in hospital for 6 weeks after he had an inflammation of his lungs.
He was so weakened - he could not even get out of bed.

His father asked me on the telephone for help. I said "In the case of pneumonia homeopathic treatment is really difficult. But you can try giving him some anti oxidants, because pneumonia is producing gigantic amounts of nitrosative stress (NO), which blocks cell functions in the whole body. Just cook him a Cistus tea and let him drink it."

The man went to his son, let him drink 4 cups of cistus tea. Six hours later the son got out of the bed, left the hospital and went to school the next week.

Cistus tea is new to me. However, I see that it is hard to find online. Does anyone know a reliable source where it can be purchased in the US?

[conk]

Supplemental antioxidants likely cause harm because most are simply garbage. Ascorbic acid? Not found in nature and not vitamin C. Vitamin E? Complicated and rarely sold in its proper form(s). That's just mentioning two. There are, however, quality, complete form antioxidants available.

If you want the premier antioxidant, take supplements that are precursors to glutathione. Those are real vitamin C, L-glutamine, NAC, alpha lipoic acid, and if you like, mushroom extract and milk thistle. Supplemental glutathione is destroyed in the gut, so you have to create it in the body. You can use and even make liposomal glutathione that survives the stomach acid and enzyme baths. Or stick it up your rear end. The colon walls absorb it readily.

Ascorbic acid is created by applying chemicals, heat, and high pressure to glucose extracted from corn starch. The result is a chemical that the human body can't metabolize the same way it utilizes real vitamin C, which contains all the constituent parts and cofactors.

Other vitamins classed as antioxidants are created from coal tar, ammonia, acetone and hydrochloric acid. The body must have natural, raw, whole food compounds and not artificially created chemicals. These substitutes are not electrically viable. They are dead agents and not food.

[kanishk]

Posted by conk (here)
Supplemental antioxidants likely cause harm because most are simply garbage. Ascorbic acid? Not found in nature and not vitamin C. Vitamin E? Complicated and rarely sold in its proper form(s). That's just mentioning two. There are, however, quality, complete form antioxidants available.

If you want the premier antioxidant, take supplements that are precursors to glutathione. Those are real vitamin C, L-glutamine, NAC, alpha lipoic acid, and if you like, mushroom extract and milk thistle. Supplemental glutathione is destroyed in the gut, so you have to create it in the body. You can use and even make liposomal glutathione that survives the stomach acid and enzyme baths. Or stick it up your rear end. The colon walls absorb it readily.

Ascorbic acid is created by applying chemicals, heat, and high pressure to glucose extracted from corn starch. The result is a chemical that the human body can't metabolize the same way it utilizes real vitamin C, which contains all the constituent parts and cofactors.

Other vitamins classed as antioxidants are created from coal tar, ammonia, acetone and hydrochloric acid. The body must have natural, raw, whole food compounds and not artificially created chemicals. These substitutes are not electrically viable. They are dead agents and not food.

Means? Have to insert Glutathione powder in anus or what? or some kind of enima with Glutathione in it?

[Bob]

The Cistus Tea mentioned by Olaf seems like a pretty darned good all natural (balanced) antioxidant



Here is some more research and observations about it

“Cistus species … have been employed in Mediterranean folk medicine as herbal tea infusions for healing digestive problems and colds, as extracts for the treatment of diseases, and as fragrances….

Various preparations from Cistus species have traditionally been used as remedies in folk medicine around the Mediterranean basin, especially in Greece, Italy, Spain, and Turkey.

The targeted conditions and diseases include anxiety, arthrosis, asthma, bronchosis, various types of cancer, bacterial and fungal infections, cardiopathies, catarrh, corn, diarrhea, duodenosis, dysendery, dyspnea, fracture, gastrosis, headache, hepatosis, hernia, hysteria, induration, infection, inflammation, insomnia, leukorrhea, myalgia, neuralgia, osteoarthritis, polyp, proctosis, rhinosis, sore, spasm, splenosis, ulcer, uterosis (Duke et al., 2008).

Organic and aqueous leaf extracts of C. monspeliensis, and also C. villosus (=incanus), growing naturally in Morocco and Tunisia were shown to have antimicrobial and antifungal properties that were mostly active against Staphylococcus aureus, Enterococcus hirae, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa and the yeast Candita glabrata (Bouamama et al., 2006).

Exhibited a rather weak activity against E. coli and P. aeruginosa, moderate against Candita albicans, Micrococcus luteus, and S. epidermidis, and most active against S. aureus and Bacillus subtillis (Demetzos et al., 1995), ” [2014]

I see online prices vary from low to high.

Going to try to see if there is a local source, if so, I'll post.

Am I to assume we are looking for "Cistus incanus" (basically a type of rockrose plant).

"Proanthocyanidin trimers isolated from Cistus incanus L. demonstrate potent anti-inflammatory activity.

from:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26414773
https://cfsremission.com/2016/page/15/

"E.Coli is almost resistant to it, it is very effective against S.Aureus"

Sweeting with whole leaf pure stevia, (not the concentrate), it appears to be recommended. One teabag amount, reused 3 times (three cups produced), steeping for 10-15 minutes per extraction, keeping the water HOT, not letting it cool..

Also great for dealing with breaking up bacterial biofilms (studies to for dealing with periodontists "gum disease")

[petra]

Posted by Mike (here)
It's all very interesting, but if one is truly curious as to whether antioxidants really work, all one has to do is try them.

Indeed! The 17 year old boy Olaf mentioned is in much the same predicament as my 71 year old mother (hey look, the digits reversed lol), and I'm planning on gently asking her to try it out. She already drinks tea, but dislikes herbal. I've never heard of Cistus tea, but if I can't find that I'll look for something similar with antioxidants, pharmacist can probably help me.

If she hops out of bed and starts walking around, I'll eat my hat. Trying not to get my hopes up

[conk]

"Means? Have to insert Glutathione powder in anus or what? or some kind of enima with Glutathione in it?"

Yes

[Bob]

I heard the words "anti-inflammatory" more so than anti-oxidant.. for CISTUS.

So with the CISTUS the anti-inflammatory plus the bacterio-addressing, the anti-viral addressing, the bio-film removal, the anti-fungal seems more-so than just "anti-oxidant".. I won't worry about "anti-oxidant" claims of Cistus use.. It could be what they wanted to say was ANTI-INFLAMMATORY..

I have had nasty experiences with anti-oxidants..

but wonderful experiences with anti-inflammatories..

I'd stick with the CISTUS test and not go looking for an alternative. Not quite into experimenting with plants haphazardly.. The historical safe use of CISTUS interests me. That's well documented.

Do please check the links in my post above for the references, and in that their references, it is good data.