The Fat Thread

[AutumnW]

Think it's important to start a thread about fat. Can fat ever be condemned as a moral failing, the deadly sin of gluttony? Or, are there other reasons for fat?

Please discuss.

[TargeT]

I thought flash was gonna handle this baby... not much of a discussion with out her assertions.

[Flash]

Posted by TargeT (here)
I thought flash was gonna handle this baby... not much of a discussion with out her assertions.

It is ok, I will get on it with Autumn with great pleasure

So, the questions maybe as follows:

1. Why some people get fat, while other don't. Target subscribes to the eat more = gain weight or eat less = lose weight. I do not. I will describe in following posts the whys.

2. Why is there an epidemic of obesity in America, now reaching Europe and Korea as well?

3. What are the academic research on the topic.

4. Is there any academic research that are hidden or stopped from being made on the topic.

5. What are the culprit of obesity, the provokers?

6. What are the impact of being ostracised and bullied because of one's weight.

7. What can be done about this.

All prejudices and views are welcome, and please Autumn, it is a complicated topic, so please help me.

[AutumnW]

Yeay!! Thanks Flash. Fat...it's something I know A LOT about! LOL

[Flash]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
Yeay!! Thanks Flash. Fat...it's something I know A LOT about! LOL

me too, both experiential and academic

[Baby Steps]

too much insulin

[Flash]

Posted by Baby Steps (here)
too much insulin

Good point, but no...... not that simple. The insulin problem is a result of overweight, unless you have some research to base this on or good explanations. And in type 2 diabetis, linked to obesity, it is not too much insulin BUT the inability of the body to integrate the sugar in its tissues (muscles and all) that is the problem, therefore the body not stopping to secrete insulin while trying to resolve this problem. Until the pancreas is exhausted.

By the way, my endocrinologist told me something very interesting: most diabetics type 2 are always hungry because the nutrients are not going into the muscle mass either with the sugar, as it should. So diabetics type 2 get hungry, their body and brain needing their nutrients, they eat, which make them fatter, which creates more type 2 diabetis. A vicious circle very difficult to break (stop) she said.

Please Target, explain to us you assertions about weight so that we could start with these to go further, since they are the most believed assertions in the general population. Thanks

[AutumnW]

I have low blood sugar, as in, after I passed out at work several decades ago I had the four hour glucose tolerance test at the local lab and the techs who administered the tests there said the graph of my blood sugar levels spiking up and then plummeting like a stone, was one of the most extreme they had seen. So I was rushed to an endocrinologist to see if I had an insulin producing tumor. Thank God, no.

Endocrinologist told me to radically curtail sugar AND CAFFEINE in my diet and up protein-- much like the diabetic diet. In other words, eat a balanced diet.

If I don't do this I gain weight. And not only do I get much hungrier than usual, but if blood sugar gets low enough, I can pass out before I even feel hungry.

It's a manageable problem and I was properly diagnosed because I was on the extreme end. This was decades ago. But...I do find I also eat a heck of a lot amd gain weight if I am sleep deprived. I also want to drink coffee to wake up. So double weight gain whammy.

I am only citing myself as an example because I feel that there are a lot of people out ther who have blood sugar problems that are not properly diagnosed -- or they fall closer to the middle of the spectrum, so it is brushed off as trivial, when it might not be...for them.

The sleep thing is far more insidious, in that people need energy to work. If they can't sleep properly, they will make up for that with food and usually densely caloric fast food.

[Atlas]

Ellen Gustafson says hunger and obesity are two sides of the same coin:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z7CtKDNf2RI

[AutumnW]

As far as academic research goes, there is some research in the last couple of years pointing to antibiotics being one of the culprits. The Chinese and Japanese, for example consume MORE calories than Americans, on average. Now, granted, they aren't consuming as many calories in fat and sugar and they are exercising more, but the factor X might be antibiotics.

In North American agribusiness cattle are fed massive amounts of antibiotics. This isn't necessarily to ward off infections. They discovered years ago that a byproduct of the antibiotics was a much larger, fatter cow. Scientists are now studying the very real possibility tha the over prescribing of anti-biotics, in humans may have the same effect.

[Sueanne47]

At work I sit with this guy at breaktime who's thin as a rake, he stuffs himself with sausage/burger rolls, long bacon rolls, 9 x bar pack twix & crisps.........while I sit opposite him eating an apple. (I'm borderline diabetic).

[DeDukshyn]

 
(AutumnW is on to something with her last post above ...)

A lot of it has to do with gut microflora. There have actually been research done where researchers took the microflora of a chronically obese person (someone who has struggled with weight their whole life) and exchanged it with the microflora of a chronically thin person (regardless of calories eaten), and the obese person began losing weight and the skinny person began to gain weight.

This is a huge factor. Of course overall muscle mass, exercise, and intake do have a say, but the variance in how well all those achieve expected result will be dependent on microflora health / spectrum.

Also I should note that there is a huge difference also between "unhealthy" and "fat" - one can be very healthy, in good shape physically, and still be carrying extra pounds; and likewise, a skinny person may just as easily be out of shape or unhealthy. This distinction is important to maintain.

I believe there are several good threads here on the importance of taking good care of your gut microflora. Eating a health balanced, toward vegetarianism / veganism if possible is a great way start creating the right environment in your gut for the microbes that are desired. For example, dark berries like blueberries contain XOS (xylo-oligosaccharides) which feed only bifidobacterium and lactobacillus variants - which are good bacteria, while not providing any food for the "bad" bacteria. Nature has designed everything perfect - the human body is designed to work like clockwork with nature - we are just re-discovering this with the latest medical research.

[raff]

Posted by Sueanne47 (here)
At work I sit with this guy at breaktime who's thin as a rake, he stuffs himself with sausage/burger rolls, long bacon rolls, 9 x bar pack twix & crisps.........while I sit opposite him eating an apple. (I'm borderline diabetic).

Darling Sueanne47, there's just no justice in this world lol. You must of been a naughty little girl in your past life

[Sueanne47]

Posted by raff (here)
You must of been a naughty little girl in your past life

yep, I'm sick of the sight of lettuce Raff. ..and I was/am a little devil

[Flash]

I eat more too if I am sleep deprived, which I have been for the 8 first years of daughter's life (she would not sleep) and for her 16 to 18 years old. Also, emotional upheaval that plays hookies with hormones as well and cortisol in particular is a dead end for losing weight. Example: an extremely difficult divorce that drain everything (finance, energies, joy, ) a good 2 years prior and 3 years during the divorce. Add to this menopause which makes you stop sleeping because of hormonal changes, and there you are , much overweight.

Most people who are diabetic and/or overweight started with low blood sugar peaks, often not diagnosed, that went on for year. I knew when I was 25 that I had blood sugars going too low before lunch and dinner, without proper diagnosis but through observations from my sister who was a dietician. Later in life, i had pregnancy diabetis, which lead to full diabetis in 50% of woman having pregnancy diabetis.

However, all this can be explain scientifically because there is more to it. Some people go through all of this and lose weight instead of gaining, so why some are gaining, even when they practically do not eat?

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I have low blood sugar, as in, after I passed out at work several decades ago I had the four hour glucose tolerance test at the local lab and the techs who administered the tests there said the graph of my blood sugar levels spiking up and then plummeting like a stone, was one of the most extreme they had seen. So I was rushed to an endocrinologist to see if I had an insulin producing tumor. Thank God, no.

Endocrinologist told me to radically curtail sugar AND CAFFEINE in my diet and up protein-- much like the diabetic diet. In other words, eat a balanced diet.

If I don't do this I gain weight. And not only do I get much hungrier than usual, but if blood sugar gets low enough, I can pass out before I even feel hungry.

It's a manageable problem and I was properly diagnosed because I was on the extreme end. This was decades ago. But...I do find I also eat a heck of a lot amd gain weight if I am sleep deprived. I also want to drink coffee to wake up. So double weight gain whammy.

I am only citing myself as an example because I feel that there are a lot of people out ther who have blood sugar problems that are not properly diagnosed -- or they fall closer to the middle of the spectrum, so it is brushed off as trivial, when it might not be...for them.

The sleep thing is far more insidious, in that people need energy to work. If they can't sleep properly, they will make up for that with food and usually densely caloric fast food.

[Flash]

Bingo

I read the same studies, some of which were made in Holland. Giving healthy gut micro flora to obese people had them lose weight AND MAINTAIN THE WEIGHT LOSS while not changing their eating habits. It was also effective in recuperating 30% of autistic children towards normalcy. Therefore, some commonalities with the causes of some sort of autism and obesity.

It is up to a point where I wonder if vaccines do not have something to do with killing the gut flora as well.

THere is more and more thinking in a conjonction of events, such as vaccines combine with pesticides and/or GMO killing the gut flora, as well as antibiotics. Once overwhelmed with all these attack on its system, the gut flora cannot ever recuperate.

Later on, the deficient gut flora is passed on to the newborn through mom's milk and delivery. THerefore, the child starts with a deficient gut flora as well, is then shot with a humongous amount of vaccines, further deteriotating its gut flora, then has antiobiotics agains ear infections, and you get a second generation with obese tendencies from the start, or if he child cannot eliminate the toxins, you get autism.

Then, the third generations has yet a much more deficient gut flora to start with than the previous two, is shot with a more humongous amount of vaccine, has more and more GMO integrating pesticides in their genes killing the gut flora, more pesticides ingestion and antibiotics from animal feed and from sickness and you get a huge increase in obesity and autism too. My theory here.

But there is more...

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
 
(AutumnW is on to something with her last post above ...)

A lot of it has to do with gut microflora. There have actually been research done where researchers took the microflora of a chronically obese person (someone who has struggled with weight their whole life) and exchanged it with the microflora of a chronically thin person (regardless of calories eaten), and the obese person began losing weight and the skinny person began to gain weight.

This is a huge factor. Of course overall muscle mass, exercise, and intake do have a say, but the variance in how well all those achieve expected result will be dependent on microflora health / spectrum.

Also I should not that there is a huge difference also between "healthy" and "fat" - one can be very health, in good shape physically, and still be carrying extra pounds; and likewise, a skinny person may just as easily be out of shape or unhealthy. This distinction is important to maintain.

I believe there are several good threads here on the importance of taking good care of your gut microflora. Eating a health balanced, toward vegetarianism / veganism if possible is a great way start creating the right environment in your gut for the microbes that are desired. For example, dark berries like blueberries contain XOS (xylo-oligosaccharides) which feed only bifidobacterium and lactobacillus variants - which are good bacteria, while not providing any food for the "bad" bacteria. Nature has designed everything perfect - the human body is designed to work like clockwork with nature - we are just re-discovering this with the latest medical research.

[Bob]

Cattle fed HORMONES, not just antibiotics - "growth promoters mean putting on weight"

Almost all beef cattle entering feedlots in the United States are given hormone implants to promote faster growth. The first product used for this purpose ­ DES (diethylstilbestrol) ­ was approved for use in beef cattle in 1954. An estimated two-thirds of the nation's beef cattle were treated with DES in 1956 (Marcus, 1994, cited in Swan et al., 2007).

Today, there are six anabolic steroids given, in various combinations, to nearly all animals entering conventional beef feedlots in the U.S. and Canada:

* Three natural steroids (estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone), and
* Three synthetic hormones (the estrogen compound zeranol, the androgen trenbolone acetate, and progestin melengestrol acetate).

Anabolic steroids are typically used in combinations. Measurable levels of all the above growth-promoting hormones are found at slaughter in the muscle, fat, liver, kidneys and other organ meats. The Food and Drug Administration has set "acceptable daily intakes" (ADIs) for these animal drugs. (hmmm)

Questions and controversy over the impacts of these added hormones on human development and health have lingered for four decades.

In 1988 the European Union banned the use of all hormone growth promoters. The ADIs on the books for years are based on traditional toxicity testing methods and do not reflect the capacity of these drugs, which are potent endocrine disruptors, to alter fetal and childhood development. According to Swan et al. (2007) ­

".the possible effects on human populations exposed to residues of anabolic sex hormones through meat consumption have never, to our knowledge, been studied. Theoretically, the fetus and the prepubertal child are particularly sensitive to exposure to sex steroids."

This gap in research is remarkable, given that every beef-eating American for over 50 years has been exposed to these hormones on a regular basis.

To begin to explore possible impacts, Swan et al. (2007) carried out a study assessing the consequences of beef consumption by pregnant women on their adult male offspring. The families included in the study were recruited from the multicenter "Study for Future Families" (SFF).

The study team assessed sperm quantity and quality among 773 men. Data on beef consumption during pregnancy was available from the mothers of 387 men. These mothers consumed, on average, 4.3 beef meals per week, and were divided into a high beef consumption group (more than seven meals per week) and a low-consumption group (less than 7 per week).

The scientists compared sperm concentrations and quality among the men born to women in the high and low beef consumption groups. They found that:

* Sperm concentration (volume) was 24.3 percent higher in the sons of mothers in the "low" beef consumption group.
* Almost 18 percent of the sons born to women in the high beef consumption group had sperm concentrations below the World Health Organization threshold for subfertility ­ about three-times more than in the sons of women in the low consumption group.

The authors concluded that ­

"These findings suggest that maternal beef consumption is associated with lower sperm concentration and possible subfertility, associations that may be related to the presence of anabolic steroids and other xenobiotics in beef."

This study lends urgency to the long-recognized need for the FDA to reconsider the acceptable daily intakes of hormones used to promote growth in beef feedlots.

This reassessment will, in all likelihood, be resisted by the animal drug and beef industries, and once begun, will take many years to be carried out.

In the interim, families wanting to avoid the risk of developmental problems in their male children can do so by choosing organic beef.

Source: "Semen quality of fertile US males in relation to their mothers' beef consumption during pregnancy"

Authors: S.H. Swan, F. Liu, J.W. Overstreet, C. Brazil, and N.E. Skakkebaek

Journal: Human Reproduction, Advance Access published online March 28, 2007.

Page Source: - https://www.organicconsumers.org/sci...e-human-health

summary: hormones at so called "acceptable levels" by the Regulatory Authorities are responsible for the "fattening up of the cattle" (as well as the consumers of the cattle products)..

Fattening up the "cattle" - http://www.wikihow.com/Give-Cattle-Hormones

Modern practices of raising cattle often involve using hormones to assist with beef and milk production in encouraging greater feed efficiency (less feed needed for more growth or milk), greater milk production (dairy), and higher growth rates (beef).

There are three methods in how hormones are given to cattle.

Beef cattle are given growth implants, feedlot heifers and cows are fed, and dairy cows are injected. Breeding heifers and cows are also injected with hormones as a means to synchronize their estrous cycles for artificial insemination, however this is covered in a separate article due to extensive information and various methods associated with synching estrus.

Beef cattle receive three general types of steroid growth implants:
1) Natural hormones composed of progesterone, estrogen and testosterone that are produced by the animal and are used as either single estrogen implants (Compudose®), or as estrogen combination (Synovex®, and Component®);
2) Zeranol, a biologically active estrogenic product which stimulates the animal to produce more of its own natural hormones (Ralgro®); and
3) Synthetic hormones like synthetic testosterone, and trenbolone acetate (TBA) combined with estrogen (Revalor® and Synovex Plus®).

All of these implants are not approved for use in dairy cows or veal calves, nor hogs or poultry.

Feedlot cows and heifers are also fed a female sex hormone prostagladin known as melengestrol acetate (MGA) in a feedlot to prevent them from going into heat during their finishing/fattening feeding period.

Dairy cows in the United States have been approved receive hormone injections (being recombinant bovine somatotropin [rbST] Posilac®, once a Monsanto drug, but now a Elanco product) for improved milk production.

This drug is not approved for use in dairy cows in other countries like Canada, those of the European Union, Australia and New Zealand due to animal health issues like mastitis and lameness. The hormone is only approved for use on lactating dairy cows, not veal calves nor dry (non-milking) cows.

[Flash]

Hey Canadians, sometimes we still do documentaries that are truthful.

Here the description of what the sugar industry does to keep making money worldwide, what they hide as did the tobacco industry, the studies they make sure will never be done, the government lobbying, etc.

I saw that documentary more than once. If everything was studied and legal process was taken to sued these companies, we may end up with a much weaker industry paying billions to all those who suffered diabetis, and all related illnesses stemming from sugar.

Once we looked at those videos, there is not more doubts that IT IS A CONSPIRACY where the poors are paid nothing to make sugar and the richer are bying their death, all approved by our governments and hidden by the sugar interests.

One of the video the most worth looking I have seen in many years, since it concerns every single person on this planet, one way or another.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=PHh5odELpi4

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nlAqt1UiQP4

[Chris Gilbert]

A moral failing? No, so long as you don't expect others to give you preferential treatment.

There's a whole host of causes too beyond just exercise alone.

[Flash]

Here the impact of sugar on insuline resistance, obesity, heart problems, cancer, dementia, azheilmer, and more. Extremely interesting. It also mention the research and the lack of warning between sugar and disease.

Also the reject of the research from the food industry and their power. Mainly from minute 32, the confidential and secret dealings of the sugar industry, by Christine Cousin. The same scandal as the tobacco industry: undermine science, attack and intimidate scientists and other coming up with results telling the truth, subvert sensible regulations

Minute 38: the blaming of the victims

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xDaYa0AB8TQ