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Thread: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by BraveClifton (here)
    Hi there folks! and thanks Bob for the great intro

    I signed up after seeing this thread and wanted to make myself available to understand some of the concerns and also to answer any questions regarding Brave (ask me anything!)
    Hi, Welcome Clifton, thanks for signing up. Glad the bug that Bob found will be ironed out. I know what it's like to rely on 3rd party software and dependencies. No one can be aware of every server call. Maybe the Brave installer should ask users about crash dump permissions, both in Linux and Windows.

    Quote (ask me anything!)
    First question: Are you ready for a long browser war?

    *

    I like giving UX feedback, so I wrote these notes:

    *

    I think Brave could eventually pull market share away from Chrome + Firefox, as privacy is a public issue, but it will be a long, slow conflict that plays out over 5-30 years.

    I guess you're relying on word-of-mouth. I'd nearly recommend Brave to friends and family. Right now there are a few things that make me unsure.





    RANDOM UX NOTES:


    LIKE

    - I like the way page load times are displayed.
    - Shields Down/Up. Cool.
    - Nice choice of colors for blocking statistics. Clear and good-looking.
    - Optional upgrades, asking the user before downloading new versions of Brave. Chrome upgrades automatically, which annoys some privacy buffs.
    - The Brave update experience was smooth and painless.






    NOT SURE, DON'T LIKE, SUGGESTIONS

    - No explanation for "HTTPS upgrades". This needs a question mark, with an explanation of HTTPS that appears on click. Fingerprinting protection is explained in the menu, nothing else has an explanatory question mark.

    - Not everyone knows what 3rd party cookies are. I doubt my parents or gf do. Need a hover/tooltip explaining what this means to the user.

    - Suggestion: To see an excellent UI, you could checkout Handbrake.

    https://handbrake.fr/downloads.php

    Handbrake guides people through a complex video compression process using tooltips. It's the best UI I've seen on a program. Too much info annoys technical users, not enough info annoys casual users. Tooltips and question marks strike a balance between the groups. Right now I wouldn't recommend Brave, because the sub-menu experience is potentially confusing. The layout is the best I've seen, but the structure and writing on the menus are no more than OK.

    - Brave Payments, the truly revolutionary aspect of the browser, is hidden in a sub-menu. I need 2 fiddly mouseclicks to get there. Is hiding payments a design choice because you're in beta? You could have a clickable Bitcoin logo right next to the lion.





    COLOURS

    - No choice of colors on the Bravery panel, either for the settings panel or the browser itself. Slack won their marketplace because they had a selection of lush color palletes. Startups live or die on their choice of color hexcodes.

    - Suggestion: If you wanted to continue the sci-fi theme you started with "Shields Up", you could have optional browser skins that felt like users are in the cockpit of an X-Wing. Dark metallic grey with few subtle, understated space icons. I know you can't use an X-Wing, for copyright reasons, but making the user feel that they're in a spacecraft would be a massive UX win, especially for the first adopter/sci-fi nerd market. Bored workers who are using a browser to Google all day would feel energized.

    - Microsoft used a Paperclip helper to make the Word UX more friendly. You could use a lion face, or even a tiger as a pop-up helper for first time users.

    - (Half-baked suggestion: You could have an optional set of sci-fi sounds as people surfed. Sci-fi doors opening with a metallic swish for a website, for example. That would annoy most users, but the media and sci-fi crowd might like it.)

    - You could also go the other direction, and have a very minimal, ultra-light option, for users who cared about speed. When I first used Maxthon, it was noticeably faster than other browsers.

    - English is US only? No GB option alongside US English? I normally see the two next to each other. You've just alienated Scotland, England, Wales, and Ireland. Please stick a UK flag there for a British English option, and just route it through to US English. No one will notice or care.





    BOOKMARK EXPERIENCE

    - All popular browers that I've used have a bad bookmarking UX. The field is wide open for innovation. With Maxthon, (which sucks, but it's fast) I have a clickable star to reach all my bookmarks. A function hotkey or Ctrl-S to bookmark sites might help. Anything to save users mouse-clicks.

    - You have a clickable star to put something into bookmarks, but how to retrieve them? The UX/UI is unintuitive. Where do I retrieve the bookmarks? The Lions face, the hamburger and the star don't take me there. Maxthon takes me to Bookmarks with one click. Brave bookmark UX is more confusing than other browsers right now.

    - Oh wait, I just saw it's Ctrl-D to save a bookmark. What about a helper that pops up to explain it's Ctrl-D, when users first download Brave?

    - Double Ctrl-D should bookmark a site. Right now Ctrl-D brings up the menu, but I still need to mouse-click to save the site. Unintuitive and slightly annoying.

    - Typing PR in the URL window brings up Project Avalon, good. Next to each bookmark, there should be some colors that represent the bookmarked site, or an icon to help users find which site they want quickly. Text plus grey is too bland when users have hundreds of bookmarks to scroll through. Again, Maxthon got it right, but their search function is so buggy that I don't like it any more.




    PRESS

    I saw on Reddit that people were happy about Brave's Bitcoin Micropayments and ad-blocking, but weren't sure about replacing an ad with one from Brave. Some were calling it a protection racket. They might be right or wrong, but the marketplace has strong opinions. Replacing ads, unless very artfully done, may cause bad vibes in the first adopter market, and lose you word-of-mouth. It eclipses all the good you've done with privacy and Micro-payments.

    China. Do you have a Chinese translation? Firefox OS lost because it came too late. Wait, I just saw it, but it's hidden in 'General'. Installers should ask what language the users want. Defaulting to Chinese language because you see a user is coming from China is very annoying for multi-lingual households + workplaces. It took me 10 minutes of trawling through docs to reset VSCode to English, for example.

    *

    tl;dr: Innovative skins, softer/clearer ad-policy and a better right click experience might push Brave past Chrome long term, but it'll be an incremental slog.

    I had a few other points, but I have to do things. Thanks for making Javascript, Brendan, Codepen is one of my favourite sites.
    Last edited by Daozen; 5th October 2016 at 20:58.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Besides finding an unauthorized user account installed in thousands of places in the computer that the Brave Browser was installed (with locked permissions), that evening unknown to me and not picked up by the firewall, Windows PowerShell was activated 10/1/2016 11:43:52 PM by some remote login. Apparently using ID: 1a3b37a6-cd0f-4f57-817e-69c0ff68b51c, Afterwhich, the remote user activated WSMan, which is the powershell console access to my machine.

    Quote The Connect-WSMan cmdlet connects to the WinRM service on a remote computer, and it establishes a persistent connection to the remote computer. You can use this cmdlet in the context of the WSMan provider to connect to the WinRM service on a remote computer.
    This has never happened before, and I DON'T USE and don't turn on powershell.

    (see http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1564473 - "it is a windows process that allows remote machine access")

    As I said at the outset, my feeling was something very very wrong is happening with the "installer". And I made it quite clear something wrong is happening in my first post.

    Looking in the Task Manager (great tool to tell an experienced user what all is going on), I find that WinRM was indeed in the list, but currently as I write this not running.. It has been permanently disabled now as a precaution.

    Brian and I are looking into what unauthorized user account was created by the browser install (probably squirrel.exe) such apparently into the released build of Brave on the date that I downloaded from the link provided in the OP post 1. I wonder how many downloads and installs of that happened and if users are able to check their event logs to see if PowerShell had been activated on their computer after the install. My feeling is IF the window powershell was turned on, each machine was then compromised.

    EventViewer from Admin tools, look in the list for Windows POWERSHELL.

    reference - WSMan - WSMan object. Provides methods and properties used to create a session, represented by a Session object. Any Windows Remote Management operations require creation of a Session that connects to a remote computer, base management controller (BMC), or the local computer.

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../ff700227.aspx

    The steps which the remote user performed appears to be
    choosing Alias
    going to Environment
    going to the File System
    doing Function
    going to the Registry
    going to a Variable
    going to (security) Certificate
    --NOTE- Engine state change
    NewEngineState=Available
    PreviousEngineState=None
    by 10/1/2016 11:45 PM they were done and disconnected.

    After having forcibly blocked the unknown-user account in many files and folders (thousands were changed), my total "automatic" internet use during the night/day has dropped by a factor of 10, normally my internet use is 30-40 megabytes.. With the unknown-user account it was as high as 10X that amount.

    This had not been there until I had tried "Brave".. Still trying to get rid of all the changes made by the "squirrel".

    ==update==

    I am doing a system registry search for that account that it logged in with. My install of Brave was like 5:26 PM, and files were still being created by the installer by 5:46, so that is extremely odd, as Daozen said 3 minutes is all it took for him. This is a fast 4 core 4 mirror CPU with like a 400 gigs to spare, fully defragmented, nothing in the 'way' of installing except for checks for unauthorized activity. 6 hours after the install the powershell was activated remotely by the looks of the log, and such completely got through my firewall. I had zonealarm up as the firewall with paranoid mode selected, ask for every connection.. The assumption is the installer masqueraded as "system" or admin account to bypass. I think that is innovative to bypass normal security.. (Seems to me only someone very good in knowing scripts may understand how to do that? unless its some new zero-day that nobody out there is talking about).. As I have pointed out, your browser is your access to the "real world out there" and if there is something wrong, it's jumping out of a plane with somebody else packing your parachute....

    The certificate on the downloaded Brave Setup file is
    Quote ‎0f 78 bb a9 9e 61 b1 a4 b1 fe 0b e6 77 d6 93 e7
    In the Security permissions even for the installer file, "account-unknown-xxx.1002" (where the xxx is machine dependent I think) was created - this account locks itself preventing removal, preventing file and folder changes. It elevates itself above normal user/owner levels.

    There was NO BUILD number showing up in the setup "details" for the download, but Rechecking the components error logs, shows app-0.12.1, which could be the build number. Generally in numbering programs, when one sees 1.xx.xx one has gotten out of BETA and into a real gold standard release.. Had I been paying attention, I would have caught 0.12.1 if such was listed on the brave download page, I didn't notice at the time. Again, how social engineering works, I looked at the OP post, and read a few enthusiastic posts afterwards and said what the heck what could go wrong with so many users enjoying this ??

    ==update==

    just checked to try to ensure that powershell is removed/prevented from turning on, and the windows feature choice for WindowsPowershell to turn off powershell has been removed from the list of features .. (I can hard turn it off by deleting the .dll for powershell so that it will never turn on by any remote connection.. So whomever, apparently is/was sufficiently skilled and knows what they are doing to ensure permanent access remotely is/was possible.. fascinating eh? Feeling warm and fuzzy yet?

    scratching my head here.. if I recall, and this is a looooong shot, during debugging, it is possible in some cases to have some remote desktop feature enabled to facilitate debugging where some developer will correspond with the user, remotely and thereby sort out installation or operating problems.. however for such a feature to be turned on, again, an opt-in, opt-out should have been given, in advance. In this case, something connected at 10/1/2016 11:43:52 PM like 6 hours after the install and made some critical changes apparently.. looking for the IP that it communicated on currently..
    Last edited by Bob; 6th October 2016 at 00:54.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    I have the same built 0.12.1 with the same certificate running on a Win 7 machine. In computer management console I see no additional user accounts listed, also not in the security properties of the install file.

    What bothered me from the start is that the install file is 93 MB big. Otter has 30 Mb. What the heck is the purpose of all that code?

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Olaf (here)
    What bothered me from the start is that the install file is 93 MB big. Otter has 30 Mb. What the heck is the purpose of all that code?
    It looks like the mechanism to log micro-payments to sites is innovative. Then there's a high tech ad-blocker which both blocks spamware, and pipes in new ads. Then Brave has to interface with Bitcoin somehow. 90+MB is huge, I agree. I'd like to know what's going on under the hood too. It looks like the caching is good.

    The repository is online and open source, we could check ourselves.

    https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop

    I searched the repo for bitcoin. 34 results in multiple languages.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Olaf (here)
    What bothered me from the start is that the install file is 93 MB big. Otter has 30 Mb. What the heck is the purpose of all that code?
    Looking at the various Firefox tarballs that I have installed on my main Linux system over the years, I see that the size of the compressed installation file, as downloaded, ranges from about 9 Mb (Firefox 3, circa 2008) to 53 Mb (Firefox 49, recent).

    The corresponding compressed installation file, as downloaded recently for Brave, is 69 Mb.

    After this compressed Brave download file is unpacked and decompressed, the biggest elements in it are a 21 Mb libnode.so (a Javascript runtime, I presume), the dynamically linked brave executable (72 Mb), and the biggest file, a 124 Mb file called resources/app.asar. This app.asar file contains some 30,000 javascript and similar such files, packed in an archive format that I'm not familiar with. My Skype-for-Linux download, from Microsoft, contains a quite similar looking libnode.so as well, just to indicate the sort of technology being used here.
    Last edited by Paul; 6th October 2016 at 11:34.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Olaf (here)
    I have the same built 0.12.1 with the same certificate running on a Win 7 machine. In computer management console I see no additional user accounts listed, also not in the security properties of the install file.

    What bothered me from the start is that the install file is 93 MB big. Otter has 30 Mb. What the heck is the purpose of all that code?
    Computer Management Console (User Accounts) would not show up a user there, this is a hidden account, for instance created in the SECURITY TAB, for the Brave folder, the Squirrel folder and various other files and folders (many many..).

    The "account unknown" was set to be elevated ABOVE regular ADMIN (administrator) for the machine. I changed ALL PERMISSIONS for that hidden account here to DENY.. And let it migrate to the many many files and folders created with that squirrel installer.. Some were not able to be changed to DENY for that hidden account. I have yet to get digging in there to see where they were lodged as not changeable yet for the hidden account. Here is a screenshot to see what it looked like:

    To find for instance "Squirrel", one can go to My Computer, select the C: drive, then in the search box type SQUIRREL, and let the computer find all instances of "Squirrel". (It may be that your Windows Explorer has to be set to SHOW HIDDEN FILES and SYSTEM FILES (I have mine set to also show file extensions, such as Squirrel.EXE where EXE is the extension), so that you get a full file name..

    I will look for the installer folder - SquirrelTemp which is located on my machine at this path: C: Users [computerusername] AppData Local SquirrelTemp

    If I then RIGHT CLICK on SquirrelTemp, I get a popup, find PROPERTIES, click on that. FIND the SECURITY TAB, click on that and review it. Those are the security settings for that folder.



    I've redacted some private machine names here and my own account, but please note the UNKNOWN USER ACCOUNT. THAT is what was created on my computer, hundreds, if not thousands of files and folders were modified with that account taking ownership and not allowing me to remove it by normal means. If you see that unknown account or anything in there which is NOT created by you or your machine, I would take note of that.

    Next, open your windows TASK MANAGER. Bottom toolbar if that is where your windows shortcuts are, in task manger, find the tab, SERVICES. Open that, and then take a look to see if you have WinRM (the remote manager). If you have WinRM running (and you are not the one who wants remote desktop control, remote 'help' etc.. TURN THAT OFF. This apparently is what the "unknown user" did to my machine during that session which happened 6 hours after the browser install. I would take note of that..

    This is what the task manager services tab shows with the highlight on WinRM.



    I have permanently disabled the WinRM in services now.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    PARTIAL List of infiltrated folders by the unknown-user which appeared after the "brave browser 0.12.1 install". From a windows 7 OS system. One can see in the file/folders and security permissions images (screenshots) examples of the changes made by what looks like the squirrel's activity. Reiterating, the hidden account was found when I tried to see if Brave was really uninstalled and found that I could NOT delete the SquirrelTemp, or the Brave folder still remaining. The hidden account therefore ONLY came from the brave install.

    Here are some questions to ponder on:

    WHAT and WHY DOES a browser need an elevated permissions hidden account to review and access to every folder on my desktop?

    To have senior elevated write execute delete permissions, to prohibit the OWNER from being able to access them where the hidden account infiltrated?

    To even get into every private folder where I would store emails, passwords, all my documents and records?

    Just as a thought exercise, will anyone want to venture to tell us about how virus' and trojan's work what they do to create elevated hidden accounts? what is their behavior like in other words. Please take a look here - Privilege Escalation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_escalation - its a good read to understand why I was concerned at the outset when I saw this type of behavior happening during/after the install of the Brave Browser. (see the Account Unknown (screenshots) created within some folders security settings permissions which were modified).

    Do I have a right to be concerned about this?

    C:\Users\{machineaccountname}\Pictures
    C:\Users\{machineaccountname}\ EVERY FOLDER ON THE DESKTOP
    C:\Users\{machineaccountname}\ EVERY FILE WITHIN EVERY FOLDER

    on the desktop (this is insurmountable, seriously, here is an example)

    One of my desktop folders called
    C:\Users\{machineaccountname}\DesktopWork
    4,153 Files, 342 Folders have been looked at and infiltrated with the hidden

    account that came out of the Brave Installer, assuming it is that "squirrel" that did this..

    My Desktop though, has a lot more files and folders, note the amount and the "Account-Unknown" account that was added..





    And the top level which is where the "squirrel" took over with it's probe:



    EVERY FILE that I had on my desktop apparently was infiltrated with the hidden user account which still remains there and the security permissions changed with the addition of this new unauthorized "Account Unknown".

    I have executed a top level switch to DENY ALL settings in security permissions of that "Account Unknown" , but have left that hidden account within the file folder permissions so that I can further document what I still don't have access to.

    While doing a migrate of security settings changing the hidden user account to DENY ALL, windows OS said some files/folders are NOT able to be changed for that hidden account. I am in the process of going thru making a list of what I can't fix.

    This is totally unacceptable for a program to do that legitimately to one's computer in a legitimate install/uninstall - still uncertain why/where this issue appeared, what triggered it and what allowed me to see what damage was being done to my file system.

    I can only imagine the hundreds of hours I will have ahead of me to correct this awful installation/uninstallation.

    Reading the setup log for the Squirrel, looks like it got very pissed that it was prevented access to one of my folders by it's "probe" and then it decided to stop installing whatever else it had to do, including a proper uninstaller..

    Quote 2016-10-01 17:27:13> Program: Starting install, writing to C:\Users\{MachineAccountName}\AppData\Local\Squirr elTemp

    2016-10-01 17:27:13> Program: About to install to: C:\Users\{MachineAccountName}\AppData\Local\brave

    2016-10-01 17:27:14> ApplyReleasesImpl: Writing files to app directory: C:\Users\{MachineAccountName}\AppData\Local\brave\ app-0.12.1

    2016-10-01 17:27:14> CheckForUpdateImpl: Couldn't write out staging user ID, this user probably shouldn't get beta anything: System.IO.DirectoryNotFoundException: Could not find a part of the path 'C:\Users\{MachineAccountName}\AppData\Local\brave \packages\.betaId'.
    at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError(Int32 errorCode, String maybeFullPath)
    at System.IO.FileStream.Init(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, Int32 rights, Boolean useRights, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES secAttrs, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy, Boolean useLongPath, Boolean checkHost)

    2016-10-01 17:27:32> ApplyReleasesImpl: Squirrel Enabled Apps: [C:\Users\{MachineAccountName}\AppData\Local\brave\app-0.12.1\Brave.exe]
    I've redacted my machine user account name {MachineAccountName} in the log extract above for security reasons. But you can see it is complaining that "THIS USER" should not be getting a betatest program ! Afterwards it tries to go to the Brave server and it is denied access as it is using an illegal hook into a data socket to try to get there (my firewall is set to prevent unauthorized outgoing activity)...

    Quote 2016-10-01 17:29:55> InstallHelperImpl:
    Couldn't write uninstall icon, don't care:

    System.Net.WebException: Unable to connect to the remote server --->

    System.Net.Sockets.SocketException:
    An attempt was made to access a socket in a way forbidden by its access permissions 157.52.65.7:443 <<<---NOTE: This shows the "try to connect" my machine directly to the BRAVE SERVER. IF IT TURNED ON winRM (the remote control access, and LEFT IT ON, PERMANENTLY, that then is where the later unknown user that nite was able to get into my machine, modify registry, do something with security certificates, It is a good trail of the awful installer activity.)..

    at System.Net.Sockets.Socket.EndConnect(IAsyncResult asyncResult)
    at System.Net.ServicePoint.ConnectSocketInternal(Bool ean connectFailure, Socket s4, Socket s6, Socket& socket, IPAddress& address, ConnectSocketState state, IAsyncResult asyncResult, Exception& exception)

    When it (the squirrel) did that "squirrely install/uninstall), it showed me (us) how severely it got into every unauthorized folder on my computer that it could stick its "probe into". I suppose that is a blessing really, as users would not know what is happening to one's computer during installation/uninstallation by the "squirrel" installer.

    A browser has absolutely NO BUSINESS getting into privates, no business looking at my desktop, my \User\{machineaccountname} folders and files.

    It certainly should not ever allow winRM or any other superconsole access to be left ON so that unauthorized users connected to the machine, I can only assume the IP is what was shown in the failed socket attempt - I noticed my machine kept pinging something continually ever few minutes before I caught that winRM was turned ON, that all the machine's normally OFF remote features were changed to MANUAL instead of DISABLED (the way I keep them set..) I point this out that this behavior started AFTER the Brave Browser was installed and then the Uninstall chosen, to remove the browser (and all changes it made).

    AFTER setting the remote features in the Services back to DISABLED and removing from RUNNING TASKS winRM did the firewall stop complaining about continual unauthorized attempts.. Go figure eh? What IP was winRM permanently opened to? Who was the mysterious hacker changing security Certificates diddling with the registry?

    This fiasco is totally unacceptable. And I am incurring quite a loss of time and effort trying to fix a compromised machine at this point. I was not told at the outset we would be downloading a version 0.12.1 BETA - I would never have tried a BETA on a critical machine.

    Looking at the list of files and folders in the screenshot of C:\Users\{machineaccountname}
    it seems to be saying

    112,027 Files, 9,384 Folders
    have been affected, probed and hidden account senior permission given to.. That number may vary a bit lower (slightly lower) as I have been continuing to use my machine, create files and so forth, maybe 30 or so files I have created since the botched install/uninstall.

    Gee.. what fun.

    PS: Brian and I are in PM trying to sort out how to deal with this situation of the installer issues. What worries me still is what happened during the session started 6 hours after the install, why a registry change was done, why a certificate change was done. What was uninstalled when I clicked the uninstall, were some critical holes left opened up? Just seems to me, leaving winRM on is wrong or any remote services, or hooks to some other computer somewhere on the internet.

    I have not created any new accounts on this machine, have not changed my username, machine name - - none of that, the Account-Unknown came out of the squirrelsetup installer I believe 100% certain.
    Last edited by Bob; 6th October 2016 at 23:30.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Alright, let's do this Apologies in advance for the massive wall of text (and the time it's taken me to type it all up)

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    Quote (ask me anything!)
    First question: Are you ready for a long browser war?
    Personally, I think the "browser wars" are over... What I mean by that is: all the major browser engines are "fairly" standards compliant.

    If we look at a "state of the market", we have:
    - Chrome has an extremely large market share. Even when you take mobile (android) out of the picture. Consider how Chrome extensions are almost a standard that other browsers are pulling in
    - Safari (in my opinion) being like the new IE in terms of Apple bundling it's browser and in the case of mobile, forcing users to use it (rather than allowing them to change default browser)
    - Firefox has a fairly small (and declining) market share in comparison to those
    - Windows has IE and Edge which see decent usage

    There's still LOTS of room to iterate and improve the overall experience. I personally have believed for years that websites will replace traditional apps. IMO, the iTunes store blew up in the late 2000's because the web is just not there yet. Standardizing major features takes time and I believe we've seen great progress towards adding native features to the browser (ex: WebGL). As more features are added, the browser and how it renders the content (what used to be important) becomes less important than the overall features the browser adds. Web browsers are getting close to the point where they are just an app launcher.

    We can't forget there are over 7 billion folks out there and a decent amount of them have access to the internet; even small gains in market share have huge potential impacts. IMO, there is lots of room for different web browsers to co-exist and thrive. Each segment of users has acceptance criteria for their browser (features, privacy concerns, speed, etc) and each web browser has a chance to cater to them. My hope is that the competition to gain more users helps drive innovation.


    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    I like giving UX feedback, so I wrote these notes:

    *

    I think Brave could eventually pull market share away from Chrome + Firefox, as privacy is a public issue, but it will be a long, slow conflict that plays out over 5-30 years.

    I guess you're relying on word-of-mouth. I'd nearly recommend Brave to friends and family. Right now there are a few things that make me unsure.


    RANDOM UX NOTES:


    LIKE

    - I like the way page load times are displayed.
    - Shields Down/Up. Cool.
    - Nice choice of colors for blocking statistics. Clear and good-looking.
    - Optional upgrades, asking the user before downloading new versions of Brave. Chrome upgrades automatically, which annoys some privacy buffs.
    - The Brave update experience was smooth and painless.
    Really glad you like it so far and yes- word of mouth is huge

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    NOT SURE, DON'T LIKE, SUGGESTIONS

    - No explanation for "HTTPS upgrades". This needs a question mark, with an explanation of HTTPS that appears on click. Fingerprinting protection is explained in the menu, nothing else has an explanatory question mark.
    That is a great point- I captured this concern with:
    https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/4593

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    - Not everyone knows what 3rd party cookies are. I doubt my parents or gf do. Need a hover/tooltip explaining what this means to the user.
    Another great point I captured this issue w/ https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/4594

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    - Suggestion: To see an excellent UI, you could checkout Handbrake.

    https://handbrake.fr/downloads.php

    Handbrake guides people through a complex video compression process using tooltips. It's the best UI I've seen on a program. Too much info annoys technical users, not enough info annoys casual users. Tooltips and question marks strike a balance between the groups. Right now I wouldn't recommend Brave, because the sub-menu experience is potentially confusing. The layout is the best I've seen, but the structure and writing on the menus are no more than OK.
    I'll be sure to pass this feedback onto our head of design, Mr Bradley Richter

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    - Brave Payments, the truly revolutionary aspect of the browser, is hidden in a sub-menu. I need 2 fiddly mouseclicks to get there. Is hiding payments a design choice because you're in beta? You could have a clickable Bitcoin logo right next to the lion.
    Yes- we are in beta and have things to iron out. Updates to the lion logo, including a bitcoin logo, are considerations that are underway right now



    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    COLOURS

    - No choice of colors on the Bravery panel, either for the settings panel or the browser itself. Slack won their marketplace because they had a selection of lush color palletes. Startups live or die on their choice of color hexcodes.

    - Suggestion: If you wanted to continue the sci-fi theme you started with "Shields Up", you could have optional browser skins that felt like users are in the cockpit of an X-Wing. Dark metallic grey with few subtle, understated space icons. I know you can't use an X-Wing, for copyright reasons, but making the user feel that they're in a spacecraft would be a massive UX win, especially for the first adopter/sci-fi nerd market. Bored workers who are using a browser to Google all day would feel energized.

    - Microsoft used a Paperclip helper to make the Word UX more friendly. You could use a lion face, or even a tiger as a pop-up helper for first time users.

    - (Half-baked suggestion: You could have an optional set of sci-fi sounds as people surfed. Sci-fi doors opening with a metallic swish for a website, for example. That would annoy most users, but the media and sci-fi crowd might like it.)

    - You could also go the other direction, and have a very minimal, ultra-light option, for users who cared about speed. When I first used Maxthon, it was noticeably faster than other browsers.

    - English is US only? No GB option alongside US English? I normally see the two next to each other. You've just alienated Scotland, England, Wales, and Ireland. Please stick a UK flag there for a British English option, and just route it through to US English. No one will notice or care.
    This is great feedback- customizability is important and I know we have a TON of issues opened tracking functionality including:
    - making the browser easier to use for folks with disabilities
    - dark color alternatives
    - being able to customize the controls in the browser

    The hard part is making sure the fundamentals are there first. For example, we just pulled in extension support recently. It's not really live for customers yet (other than our 1Password and Dashlane plug-ins are now updatable). Other major features we've been working on include:
    - being able to tear tabs off and put into a new window (in progress)
    - importing bookmarks from other browsers (recently finished)
    - polishing up the UI associated with browser history and bookmark management
    - improving Brave Payments with bug fixes and also with feedback we've gotten
    - providing a way for content publishers to sign up so that they can collect the funds from Brave Payments

    It'll be exciting to see where the project is at in a year from now, when a lot of the basics are in place (and well executed). The English comment is funny- I didn't perceive it as being intentionally offensive. I'll mention that in our chat. We're basically using as "English" rather than actually localizing to various English speaking markets (no offense intended, I swear!)

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    BOOKMARK EXPERIENCE

    - All popular browers that I've used have a bad bookmarking UX. The field is wide open for innovation. With Maxthon, (which sucks, but it's fast) I have a clickable star to reach all my bookmarks. A function hotkey or Ctrl-S to bookmark sites might help. Anything to save users mouse-clicks.

    - You have a clickable star to put something into bookmarks, but how to retrieve them? The UX/UI is unintuitive. Where do I retrieve the bookmarks? The Lions face, the hamburger and the star don't take me there. Maxthon takes me to Bookmarks with one click. Brave bookmark UX is more confusing than other browsers right now.

    - Oh wait, I just saw it's Ctrl-D to save a bookmark. What about a helper that pops up to explain it's Ctrl-D, when users first download Brave?

    - Double Ctrl-D should bookmark a site. Right now Ctrl-D brings up the menu, but I still need to mouse-click to save the site. Unintuitive and slightly annoying.

    - Typing PR in the URL window brings up Project Avalon, good. Next to each bookmark, there should be some colors that represent the bookmarked site, or an icon to help users find which site they want quickly. Text plus grey is too bland when users have hundreds of bookmarks to scroll through. Again, Maxthon got it right, but their search function is so buggy that I don't like it any more.
    This is a huge one that we are actively working on. You can see (and make) Bookmark feature requests here (as of this writing, there are 66 open issues/requests):
    https://github.com/brave/browser-lap...re%2Fbookmarks


    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    PRESS

    I saw on Reddit that people were happy about Brave's Bitcoin Micropayments and ad-blocking, but weren't sure about replacing an ad with one from Brave. Some were calling it a protection racket. They might be right or wrong, but the marketplace has strong opinions. Replacing ads, unless very artfully done, may cause bad vibes in the first adopter market, and lose you word-of-mouth. It eclipses all the good you've done with privacy and Micro-payments.

    China. Do you have a Chinese translation? Firefox OS lost because it came too late. Wait, I just saw it, but it's hidden in 'General'. Installers should ask what language the users want. Defaulting to Chinese language because you see a user is coming from China is very annoying for multi-lingual households + workplaces. It took me 10 minutes of trawling through docs to reset VSCode to English, for example.

    *

    tl;dr: Innovative skins, softer/clearer ad-policy and a better right click experience might push Brave past Chrome long term, but it'll be an incremental slog.

    I had a few other points, but I have to do things. Thanks for making Javascript, Brendan, Codepen is one of my favourite sites.
    We recently added Chinese I believe (which is great!)

    Like you stated, gaining users will take time. I personally see this as a long term game and browsers will become increasingly important to people as they offer more features and native apps become less important. Many native apps right now just wrap a web page and offer native features like push notifications.

    Thanks for all the input

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Thanks for comments BraveClifton, but ever since I downloaded Brave from PA's thread from Herve' it has highjacked something on my Windows 7 OS and has ranup my cpu usage to 100%. What is that all about? I would love to eliminate and go back to normal cpu usage rates.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Wide-Eyed (here)
    Thanks for comments BraveClifton, but ever since I downloaded Brave from PA's thread from Herve' it has highjacked something on my Windows 7 OS and has ranup my cpu usage to 100%. What is that all about? I would love to eliminate and go back to normal cpu usage rates.
    This might give you some avenues of investigation and permanent solutions to that High CPU Usage:

    How to fix: Svchost.exe (netsvcs) memory leak or high CPU usage problems
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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Thanks for typing that up BraveClifton. It's an interesting insight into how projects are managed. I know programmer time is expensive, and don't want to drag you away from development.

    I didn't realise I could open Github issues for fiddly UX feature requests. Looks like you have things well documented and a good community. I like the clear feedback structure you have. By 'long browser war' I meant that it'll take a while to drag users away from established options. But in a billion+ person market, even a 0.5 percent gain is a huge win. Yes, there's room for many browsers, like you said.

    I doubt anyone in Scotland really cares that there's no UK English option, but in my experience, localizing with small language markets like Hungary, Czech Republic, Sweden... taking the time to get everything right, makes a huge difference in word of mouth. But I shall lecture you no longer! It looks like you have a solid gameplan and a long term view. My name on Github is Microflow, I'll contribute when I can.

    Best Wishes.
    Last edited by Daozen; 6th October 2016 at 23:35.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Olaf (here)
    I have the same built 0.12.1 with the same certificate running on a Win 7 machine. In computer management console I see no additional user accounts listed, also not in the security properties of the install file.

    What bothered me from the start is that the install file is 93 MB big. Otter has 30 Mb. What the heck is the purpose of all that code?
    Exactly, Olaf. The high MB # was a red flag to me but I only looked into that or noted it after I installed Brave from post then ... it never let me use Brave browser. ??? I'm no comp-sci major, but I downloaded Brave from a PA thread thinking it was kosher and then it locks up my cpu sends it to a hot 100% constant cpu usage and I'm thwarted at every turn constantly going into services under task manager to alleviate the issue. No more consciousness elevating from me, I'm left with the old school system of truth seeking- research by legal pad, dewey. card catalog, and the cold hard quiet comfort of the library I guess It's going to be a cold dark winter... time to hit the books. Anyone in the market for a used, very warm PC?

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    Quote Posted by Wide-Eyed (here)
    Thanks for comments BraveClifton, but ever since I downloaded Brave from PA's thread from Herve' it has highjacked something on my Windows 7 OS and has ranup my cpu usage to 100%. What is that all about? I would love to eliminate and go back to normal cpu usage rates.
    This might give you some avenues of investigation and permanent solutions to that High CPU Usage:

    How to fix: Svchost.exe (netsvcs) memory leak or high CPU usage problems
    Just a brief observation Herve', going to that page tells the user down the list of suggestions to DELETE (clear) the logs in Event Viewer which could be providing FORENSIC data on the machine, so doing that will remove the log traces of what went wrong. I would not recommend deleting logs.. just have the user look in task manager, and go to processes and SEE what is taking up 100% or high usage. Then noting what program it is take some notes.. Stopping that by right clicking on the offending program and then use END PROCESS TREE gets rid of the offending program.

    That way FORENSICS are saved and not lost for later evaluation why things weren't working as they should.

    The page assumes How to fix: Svchost.exe (netsvcs) memory leak or high CPU usage problems. Is the assumption here that BraveBrowser induced netsvcs issues?

    I think just doing the find the process, not the service that is acting up is the way to fix it quick without a novice user having to try to sort some potentially complex issues.. total fix time, that way 20 seconds. Nobody should be stuck with a computer being forced to run at 100%. Laptops can be permanently damaged by such overload if such continues for any length of time. (cpu meltdown, and so forth, like loss of data if the machine thermal's out.)

    If not already ticked "Show Processes from ALL USERS" should be ticked ON (so that suggestion is good in the page referenced..) - that is usually located at the bottom left of the Task Manager window which pops up.

    Piece of cake that way.

    reference: Computer Forensics, or Preserving DATA - https://forensiccontrol.com/resource...ter-forensics/

    never delete logs if there are problems.. finding the right log to look at, security logs, network logs, etc. are essential in finding 'what went wrong'

    Here is a list of tools that are usable in doing a FORENSIC analysis to see what went wrong. Understand why FORENSIC analysis should be performed in any specific or suspected or potential hacking issue. Potential damaging of one's machine, file system, IP theft, etc.
    https://forensiccontrol.com/resource...ter-forensics/
    Last edited by Bob; 7th October 2016 at 00:20.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    [...]
    Just a brief observation Herve', going to that page tells the user down the list of suggestions to DELETE (clear) the logs in Event Viewer which could be providing FORENSIC data on the machine, so doing that will remove the log traces of what went wrong. I would not recommend deleting logs.. [...]
    Correct, if one is interested in forensic analysis (one can always "Save All Events as..." before clearing the logs)...

    The advices given are to solve the high CPU usage... not a forensic analysis like you are interested in
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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    [...]
    Just a brief observation Herve', going to that page tells the user down the list of suggestions to DELETE (clear) the logs in Event Viewer which could be providing FORENSIC data on the machine, so doing that will remove the log traces of what went wrong. I would not recommend deleting logs.. [...]
    Correct, if one is interested in forensic analysis (one can always "Save All Events as..." before clearing the logs)...

    The advices given are to solve the high CPU usage... not a forensic analysis like you are interested in
    Ya all that @Wide-Eyed needed was to go to Processes and turn off the 100% CPU use program. Done in a few moments. We solved that together in a few PM's back and forth. @Wide-Eyed only had this happen after trying the BraveBrowser, and did NOT have brave-browser able to work. The assumption then is the install failed, locked the computer into 100%. Had nothing to do with the other suggestions on that page except to go to PROCESSES, find the high CPU USE and stop that program from running.

    For ANY REASON, forensics or whatever, DON'T go deleting log files, it is essential to know what went wrong.
    Last edited by Bob; 7th October 2016 at 01:44.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    For ANY REASON, forensics or whatever, DON'T go deleting log files, it is essential to know what went wrong.
    If the cause of the excessive CPU usage was some unnecessarily inefficient processing of some log file, as apparently that article was considering a possibility, and if one has already looked into other solutions, perhaps as that article described, then it might make sense to delete, or at least move elsewhere, the log files that might be causing the problem.

    On a separate matter ... Bob, the manner in which you are approaching this Beta of the Brave browser, still in the midst of its initial major development, is rather annoying (to me at least) and rather insulting (to Brave). You're inundating us with a blizzard of technical details, combined with numerous rather nasty insinuations. The technical details seem less offered to assist Brave developers, in ways they welcome, in analyzing what's happening, and more offered to impress the reader with your mastery of the situation. The result comes across as less supportive of genuine efforts to improve Brave or diagnose the issues you're reporting, and more intended to slander Brave and to impress us with your technical knowledge.

    This is not how good software is developed.

    I trust that the Brave developers have good intentions and substantial technical ability, and that Brendan Eich has good strategic vision ... as good or better than anyone. I know from experience that if it turns out that they don't have such, or that they do now, but turn to the dark side later, that it will take far more time than we have spent so far, for even those of us who are technically savvy, such as yourself or myself, to realize otherwise.

    Meanwhile, I suggest looking more for opportunities to assist, in ways that might be welcome, rather than looking for opportunities to impress technically and to slander Brave.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Paul; 7th October 2016 at 06:14.

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Not that I want to impress anybody with technical knowledge. !!

    I have (Win 10 AU) 317 event log files on my machine, I clear them every day just to tease M$, and yes if something goes wrong before, I can't see that. They can be found here c:\windows\system32\winevt\logs

    when you doubleclick on a file it will open (can take a little time before the result arrive), also remember, you can click on changedate to sort the files, so you can see the last written log/s.

    To clear all the files follow the instruction here: http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/1...s-windows.html



    Johnny
    Last edited by Johnny; 7th October 2016 at 09:45.
    There would be no life here on Earth without YOU, at least not as YOU know it. /Johnny

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    From BraveSoftware Raises $4.5 Million in Seed Financing and Readies for 1.0 Launch (PRNewswire.com; August 1, 2016) :

    ==========
    SAN FRANCISCO, Aug. 1, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- Brave Software, a start-up reinventing the browser as a user platform for speed, privacy, and micropayments, announced today that it has raised a $4.5 million seed round investment from leading venture capital firms and angel investors. Participating in the round are Founders Fund's FF Angel, Propel Venture Partners, Pantera Capital, Foundation Capital, and Digital Currency Group. This round of funding will be allocated towards platform development and growth. This brings the total amount of funding to date to $7 million with previous angel funding from private investors.

    Brave is a new open source browser for desktop and mobile that blocks invasive ads and online trackers to provide a faster and safer web experience. Unlike traditional browsers, Brave has a built-in ad-blocker (no extensions needed) which reduces page loading time, improves performance, and guards from ads infected with malware. On the desktop, Brave provides a 40% to 60% speed increase, and a 2x to 4x speed increase on mobile devices. Mobile users see a direct reduction in both battery and data plan consumption. Brave also protects users with leading privacy and security features such as HTTPS Everywhere (encrypted data traffic), fingerprinting shields, phishing protection, malware filtering, and script blocking.

    Brave is partnering with BitGo and Coinbase to provide wallets and purchasing tools for the Brave Ledger, a new Bitcoin-based micropayments system that automatically and anonymously pays users' favorite websites. Brave also will allow users and publishers to opt into a better, privacy-preserving ad model that shares revenue with users as well as publishers.
    ==========

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    From CoinDesk and Brave Software Partner on New Content Revenue Model with Private Micropayments and Focus on User Privacy (PRNewsire.com; December 13, 2016):

    ==========
    NEW YORK and SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 13, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- CoinDesk, the leading media & events business in the bitcoin and blockchain industry, announced today a partnership with privacy-focused browser company Brave Software to phase out third-party banner advertisements from its website in 2017 and promote the innovative Brave browser to its audience.

    In order to maintain revenue with the value of ad impressions dropping across the Internet, many media companies have found themselves increasingly pressured to allow networks to serve ads that trade their users' privacy and security for delivery guarantees. Rather than follow suit and chase additional pennies from third-party networks that serve intrusive ads that track and follow users as they browse the Internet, CoinDesk has committed instead to evaluate new revenue models with Brave that provide brand advertisers with significant returns on their investment while also providing users with a faster, cleaner, and more private experience.
    ==========

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    Default Re: The "Brave" Browser Created by Firefox Web Browser Creator Brendan Eich

    Wow great thread. Have downloaded brave and will be using it on an alternate twitter account(@NeuroWeaponry). What I would say is lacking in brave is a window for quick search engine searching like firefox. It seems very responsive so it is welcomed software to my arsenal
    Last edited by Omni; 18th December 2016 at 08:26.

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