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Thread: If reincarnation is true...

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    United States Avalon Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    The future is always slipping into the past ... everything comes down to each individuals perspective and level of evolution ... it's up to you to decide how you view it ...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by DeeMetrios (here)
    [...]

    wow !! .... & we are led to beleive that time is an illusion & all exists in the now ?
    Well, that's not a lie, per se... it's just never explained correctly or accurately, just colossally mis-interpreted:

    Because, who decides when "NOW" is? Only "something" that has a memory of yesterday, today and some expectation that tomorrow will be there... on time

    Or, because the now moment contains the effects/memories of the past which are influencing (or not) the current moment as well as the potential effects on the future, whether immediate or long term.

    When one loses grip of a glass made of glass above a tiled floor... memories of previous similar events predict it's gonna break unless one manages to make the glass land on one's foot or is telekinetic enough to make it fly to the kitchen counter... so that's a "NOW" moment with all of its three components: Past, Present and potential Future; all contained in one's mind all at once.

    This Solar system is about 4.5 billion years old. Yet, a freshly expelled lava flow from Kilauea can argue with some Archean lava flow about "when did time start" for them... yesterday... or billion of years ago according to the memories recorded in their mineral contents... it's a sort of "recycling" of memories, much like re-incarnation is for living organisms.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    For something to be true it has to be undeniable and always true.
    If I drop a hammer , its going to fall--if it hits my foot there is going to be pain.

    In our world of duality we live with cause and effect-- the cause can be the same but have different end results.
    A person may get shot, they may or may not die--depends on many things.

    In non duality no one dies--the body does.
    There would seem to be a cross over point between non-duality and duality.
    Some might call that enlightenment.

    The late Dr David Hawkins--claimed past lives as does Adyashanti--both enlightened it would seem.
    Im open minded.

    Chris
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    I know I exist, thats not a belief, not at thought, this does not need thinking to confirm.
    Well said Chris, that's why ACIM says nothing needs to be done, it is our doing that seems to take us away from what we are,
    that doing is ego (like another bob said in tims thread; the ego is an activity).
    Yet what we are has been eternally established by God, and our thoughts are ineffectual to change this.

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    Avalon Member Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    One more important thing to consider: we are not really incarnated, the world arises in our mind and then we attach to a body and say it is us.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    I know I exist, thats not a belief, not at thought, this does not need thinking to confirm.
    Well said Chris, that's why ACIM says nothing needs to be done, it is our doing that seems to take us away from what we are,
    that doing is ego (like another bob said in tims thread; the ego is an activity).
    Yet what we are has been eternally established by God, and our thoughts are ineffectual to change this.
    "

    Yes EmEx---current mystics say much the same.

    You will probably remember the exact quote from ACIM which starts. "The moment you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion"

    There is a lot in "A course in miracles" worth considering.
    Im not fond of the first part but the work book is excellent.

    Ch
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    Avalon Member Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    You will probably remember the exact quote from ACIM which starts. "The moment you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion"
    Makes a lot of sense, might have read it but don't remember to be honest.


    The "Hero" of the Dream

    The body is the central figure in the dreaming of the world. There is no dream without it, nor does it exist without the dream in which it acts as if it were a person to be seen and be believed. It takes the central place in every dream, which tells the story of how it was made by other bodies, born into the world outside the body, lives a little while and dies, to be united in the dust with other bodies dying like itself. In the brief time allotted it to live, it seeks for other bodies as its friends and enemies. Its safety is its main concern. Its comfort is its guiding rule. It tries to look for pleasure, and avoid the things that would be hurtful. Above all, it tries to teach itself its pains and joys are different and can be told apart.

    The dreaming of the world takes many forms, because the body seeks in many ways to prove it is autonomous and real. It puts things on itself that it has bought with little metal discs or paper strips the world proclaims as valuable and real. It works to get them, doing senseless things, and tosses them away for senseless things it does not need and does not even want.

    It hires other bodies, that they may protect it and collect more senseless things that it can call its own. It looks about for special bodies that can share its dream. Sometimes it dreams it is a conqueror of bodies weaker than itself. But in some phases of the dream, it is the slave of bodies that would hurt and torture it.
    The body's serial adventures, from the time of birth to dying are the theme of every dream the world has ever had. The "hero" of this dream will never change, nor will its purpose. Though the dream itself takes many forms, and seems to show a great variety of places and events wherein its "hero" finds itself, the dream has but one purpose, taught in many ways. This single lesson does it try to teach again, and still again, and yet once more; that it is cause and not effect. And you are its effect, and cannot be its cause.
    Thus are you not the dreamer, but the dream. And so you wander idly in and out of places and events that it contrives. That this is all the body does is true, for it is but a figure in a dream. But who reacts to figures in a dream unless he sees them as if they were real? The instant that he sees them as they are they have no more effects on him, because he understands he gave them their effects by causing them and making them seem real.

    How willing are you to escape effects of all the dreams the world has ever had? Is it your wish to let no dream appear to be the cause of what it is you do? Then let us merely look upon the dream's beginning, for the part you see is but the second part, whose cause lies in the first. No one asleep and dreaming in the world remembers his attack upon himself. No one believes there really was a time when he knew nothing of a body, and could never have conceived this world as real. He would have seen at once that these ideas are one illusion, too ridiculous for anything but to be laughed away. How serious they now appear to be! And no one can remember when they would have met with laughter and with disbelief. We can remember this, if we but look directly at their cause. And we will see the grounds for laughter, not a cause for fear.

    Let us return the dream he gave away unto the dreamer, who perceives the dream as separate from himself and done to him. Into eternity, where all is one, there crept a tiny, mad idea, at which the Son of God remembered not to laugh. In his forgetting did the thought become a serious idea, and possible of both accomplishment and real effects. Together, we can laugh them both away, and understand that time cannot intrude upon eternity. It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity, which means there is no time.

    A timelessness in which is time made real; a part of God that can attack itself; a separate brother as an enemy; a mind within a body all are forms of circularity whose ending starts at its beginning, ending at its cause. The world you see depicts exactly what you thought you did. Except that now you think that what you did is being done to you. The guilt for what you thought is being placed outside yourself, and on a guilty world that dreams your dreams and thinks your thoughts instead of you. It brings its vengeance, not your own. It keeps you narrowly confined within a body, which it punishes because of all the sinful things the body does within its dream. You have no power to make the body stop its evil deeds because you did not make it, and cannot control its actions nor its purpose nor its fate.

    The world but demonstrates an ancient truth; you will believe that others do to you exactly what you think you did to them. But once deluded into blaming them you will not see the cause of what they do, because you want the guilt to rest on them. How childish is the petulant device to keep your innocence by pushing guilt outside yourself, but never letting go! It is not easy to perceive the jest when all around you do your eyes behold its heavy consequences, but without their trifling cause. Without the cause do its effects seem serious and sad indeed. Yet they but follow. And it is their cause that follows nothing and is but a jest.
    In gentle laughter does the Holy Spirit perceive the cause, and looks not to effects. How else could He correct your error, who have overlooked the cause entirely? He bids you bring each terrible effect to Him that you may look together on its foolish cause and laugh with Him a while. You judge effects, but He has judged their cause. And by His judgment are effects removed. Perhaps you come in tears. But hear Him say, "My brother, holy Son of God, behold your idle dream, in which this could occur. "And you will leave the holy instant with your laughter and your brother's joined with His.

    The secret of salvation is but this: that you are doing this unto yourself. No matter what the form of the attack, this still is true. Whoever takes the role of enemy and of attacker, still is this the truth. Whatever seems to be the cause of any pain and suffering you feel, this is still true. For you would not react at all to figures in a dream you knew that you were dreaming. Let them be as hateful and as vicious as they may, they could have no effect on you unless you failed to recognize it is your dream.

    This single lesson learned will set you free from suffering, whatever form it takes. The Holy Spirit will repeat this one inclusive lesson of deliverance
    until it has been learned, regardless of the form of suffering that brings you pain. Whatever hurt you bring to Him He will make answer with this very simple truth. For this one answer takes away the cause of every form of sorrow and of pain. The form affects His answer not at all, for He would teach you but the single cause of all of them, no matter what their form. And you will understand that miracles reflect the simple statement, " I have done this thing, and it is this I would undo. "
    Bring, then, all forms of suffering to Him Who knows that every one is like the rest. He sees no differences where none exists, and He will teach you how each one is caused. None has a different cause from all the rest, and all of them are easily undone by but a single lesson truly learned.

    Salvation is a secret you have kept but from yourself. The universe proclaims it so. Yet to its witnesses you pay no heed at all. For they attest the thing you do not want to know. They seem to keep it secret from you. Yet you need but learn you chose but not to listen, not to see.
    How differently will you perceive the world when this is recognized! When you forgive the world your guilt, you will be free of it. Its innocence does not demand your guilt, nor does your guiltlessness rest on its sins. This is the obvious; a secret kept from no one but yourself. And it is this that has maintained you separate from the world, and kept your brother separate from you. Now need you but to learn that both of you are innocent or guilty. The one thing that is impossible is that you be unlike each other; that they both be true. This is the only secret yet to learn. And it will be no secret you are healed.

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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    & if time is an illusion ...
    .......
    Why is it always "past life regression" ?

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    Finland Avalon Member Wind's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Because they did happen in the past when viewed from the historical viewpoint. In this physical world there is time... Which is relative.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by CO2 (here)
    If reincarnation is true then why doesn't God improve His personal counseling skills to help us to not get reincarnated again in order that we might enjoy His perpetual creation while having an instilled memory?
    This made me chuckle! "Gee Whiz, God. I can't even enjoy your creation properly - a little help please??"

    I think something of this sort is already happening, but it would not be God who is learning because God is perfect. I get the impression that there's other beings besides us, who are learning too, but that's just a feeling.

    Quote Posted by CO2 (here)
    Seems to me that karma isn't the issue here but rather irresponsibility on our part and God's.
    The word irresponsible really stands out to me because that is exactly what my thoughts were telling me that I was. Irresponsible. The reason why is just part of a delusion - but the FEELING is what's important. What if you doomed the entire planet by accident? What if that carried over to all the other planets too? Imagine how awful you'd feel - well that's how I felt. For me it was like a whole new feeling I couldn't compare to any other feelings, so I named it the "Doom feeling". Feels really.... doomy

    I think of God as being perfect, but sometimes I wonder with all the gross crap going on if it takes a toll on God. If we're suffering, that would mean God is suffering too wouldn't it? I just do not feel that suffering should be a necessary thing in order to increase our awareness - there's just GOT to be a better way of teaching than THAT.

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    United States Avalon Member Joe Akulis's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    I just do not feel that suffering should be a necessary thing in order to increase our awareness - there's just GOT to be a better way of teaching than THAT.
    Are you thinking of suffering in terms of, "Well, you were a jerk to 100 people in a past life so that's why you were born with epilepsy in this life? That's definitely one factor that can contribute to the general field of "suffering", if you believe in some of the reincarnation and karma theories.

    And based on a lot of regression stories, and other contributions to the field of study, like the Edgar Cayce library, it seems like most people are making that choice themselves -- to come back and find out what it's like when someone else is a jerk to you, so that next time you are placed in the position where it is possible for you to choose to be a jerk to someone else, you will be less likely to make that choice, thanks to your own subconscious experience and memories.

    In cases like that, you could say that suffering isn't necessary; it's something you volunteered to understand better.

    I think there is also a larger game at play when it comes to the topic of suffering. And that's the big dogs who have taken up a very serious pursuit of the art of domination. I bet there are certain people who are attracted to this place just so they can work on that kind of craft. Much like it appears the person who was General Patton has come here many times to pursue the art of leading large groups of people in combat. There are people who want to get better at playing God: manipulating the masses, causing and turning a blind eye to all the problems they create for others who are here for millions of other reasons. This takes being a jerk to a whole different level. :-)

    I wonder if the divine governors who keep watch on our world are perhaps allowing some of this to take place because of the value of the experience gained by the folks who choose that line of pursuit. It gets into that yin/yang, light/dark, duality side of things I suppose.

    Do you think you would agree to be abused in a particular lifetime so that a loved one could have another chance to properly meet their karma and have the choice to be a jerk to you again and finally decide not to? Is that partly what love is? One of us making a sacrifice so that someone else might make greater spiritual gains?

    All of these questions come into play when you start learning about reincarnation. It's gets pretty deep, but it is way better than not having any answers at all as to why suffering exists. I'll take those conversations any day over, "God's ways are mysterious." :-)

    Much love to all on this thread!
    Joe

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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    I just do not feel that suffering should be a necessary thing in order to increase our awareness - there's just GOT to be a better way of teaching than THAT.
    Are you thinking of suffering in terms of, "Well, you were a jerk to 100 people in a past life so that's why you were born with epilepsy in this life? That's definitely one factor that can contribute to the general field of "suffering", if you believe in some of the reincarnation and karma theories.

    And based on a lot of regression stories, and other contributions to the field of study, like the Edgar Cayce library, it seems like most people are making that choice themselves -- to come back and find out what it's like when someone else is a jerk to you, so that next time you are placed in the position where it is possible for you to choose to be a jerk to someone else, you will be less likely to make that choice, thanks to your own subconscious experience and memories.

    In cases like that, you could say that suffering isn't necessary; it's something you volunteered to understand better.
    I'm not really thinking in any specific terms, I just feel as if there'd be a better way to learn "what not to do" than having to suffer through the results of your own (or other's) mistakes. You mentioned Cayce and although I haven't read much of his material (just material about him) I happen to recall he could see auras. I realize Cayce was special but I can't help but wonder what the world would be like if we could all "see" each other's feelings.

    Quote Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
    Do you think you would agree to be abused in a particular lifetime so that a loved one could have another chance to properly meet their karma and have the choice to be a jerk to you again and finally decide not to? Is that partly what love is? One of us making a sacrifice so that someone else might make greater spiritual gains?
    Absolutely. Feels as if I already did that.... thanks this example Joe, seems as if you've really been around the block I imagine this has already happened over the course of existence a great many times. I think pretty much -any- parent would be willing to suffer (or even die) for their child, with very few exceptions.

    Quote Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
    All of these questions come into play when you start learning about reincarnation. It's gets pretty deep, but it is way better than not having any answers at all as to why suffering exists. I'll take those conversations any day over, "God's ways are mysterious." :-)
    Ha ha I know that wall I never gave reincarnation much thought until a few years ago when I joined PA. Now it's becoming more interesting, I'm just dubious if it applies to me or not. I know if I started having memories of being a person who existed in the past, I'd be suspicious. If I woke up one morning and suddenly knew how to read German, I'd be VERY suspicious.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    As far as pain goes
    We live in a world of duality--opposites.
    There is a saying "That which gives you pleasure gives you pain" Just two sides of the same coin.

    The path of non-duality--says that nothing is personal--life happens.
    Into everyones life a drop of rain must fall.
    Sometimes its a deluge--- but thats life doing what it does.

    The mystics say that you in your essence is perfect--no lessons needed, no improvement possible.
    Persona is forever changing. The Self is unchanging, Eternal, timeless.
    One soul in the disguise of the many.

    So reincarnation is most likely part of the grand play of consciousness.

    All dreams seem very real--till awakening happens.
    Self realization is simply awakening from the illusion of separation.

    Make what you will of that.

    Chris
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    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    I guess I'd end up with the mystics then. Not to say my essence is perfect, I just don't feel as if I am learning anything of value, and so I question the need for lessons at all.

    The lessons I am learning aren't really nice either, like "Trust no one" is probably the most valuable thing I have learned so far and that's kind of sad. Every time I sit down and honesty try to think of what I have learned so far (spiritually speaking) I am drawing a blank. I'm getting stuck because I don't think it's even possible for me to learn anything spiritual - and I really don't feel like it's just a simple case of me being an idiot. I simply don't expect to ever be able to understand, and if I ever do I am going to be very very surprised.

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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Petra, perhaps you came here to suffer to help heal the karmic ties of others. I know much of my own suffering feels unjust. What if you came to suffer as part of the hardcore gang who could take it and transmit what it is like to be human and suffer, not because of some karmic tie of your own? What if we really are living libraries and your soul is so strong and has so much courage that you were actually selected to come here and do battle, so to speak? What if? Makes things seem a little more bearable, doesn't it? You can hold your head a little higher and tell the naysayers to shove it up their a*s.

    What if?

    "High station in life is earned by the gallantry with which appalling experiences are survived with grace." - not sure who the author is
    Last edited by Valerie Villars; 9th January 2018 at 00:40.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Avalon Member Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    I guess I'd end up with the mystics then. Not to say my essence is perfect, I just don't feel as if I am learning anything of value, and so I question the need for lessons at all.

    The lessons I am learning aren't really nice either, like "Trust no one" is probably the most valuable thing I have learned so far and that's kind of sad. Every time I sit down and honesty try to think of what I have learned so far (spiritually speaking) I am drawing a blank. I'm getting stuck because I don't think it's even possible for me to learn anything spiritual
    You have learned to the degree that you are at peace/feel good, your mood/feelings will tell you how much you have learned. In other words, if we are unhappy we have a thought that is not true.

    While spiritual concepts may be helpful, it is more of an unlearning of the false concepts we hold on to. The truth we cannot unknow, but it can be covered up.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Em Ex has it .
    All beliefs concepts are released in order to reveal what is always there--the Self--in other words Realization of the Self.
    This not to say that life will not continue as before "Chopping wood . fetching water" --all real enough in this realm.
    What changes is identification with the story of me.

    The ancient teaching is Neity neity---not this not this.
    Eventually or quickly a the case might be- there is no separation---no subject no object--just what is.
    No longer an actor in the play of consciousness.

    Reincarnation it would seem is part of the play.
    Real enough to the participants.

    ‘All the world ‘s a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts.’

    (As You Like it Act 2, Scene 7)

    https://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/q...speare-quotes/
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Canada Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    ... In other words, if we are unhappy we have a thought that is not true.
    ...

    Aligns perfectly with:
    "All human suffering is created by a denial of the Truth" -- I can't recall the author of that one ...

    Almost as soon as one has labeled something and "language-ized" it, it's truth has been denied. Our language is structured thus that it is automatically reductive.

    If I say "this is a tree" - I have denied the tree it's truth. The truth is, I have no connection with the tree (that I am consciously speaking from), I do not understand the tree, how it works, what it's spirit is, what is the force behind its animation ... I don't know anything like this. So for me to reduce the object to the guttural sound "tree" without actually having that sound be an intimate connection, means I have denied truth, and reduced this beautiful living thing to a sound for purpose of a label.


    "This is a tree" -- a "sin" is automatically created by denying the tree its Truth.

    "I call this a tree" -- avoids the "sin" by putting the acknowledgment of "tree" being a label, between my myself and the life-form we call a tree.

    So subtle but so important ... to not deny Truth - can be done simply with subtle changes in the way we communicate. (okay, maybe not "simply", but it can be done through augmenting verbal communication)


    I'm probably way off topic, just thought I'd add that in.
    Last edited by Navigator; 9th January 2018 at 16:22.

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  37. Link to Post #79
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Wow. Interesting way of putting it! If we are unhappy.... we have a thought that is not true. This is making much more sense to me than human suffering being caused by denial.

    "I call this a tree" is really a wonderful way of explaining the language difference, I'm even glad you used a tree. I love trees! Though in my case I'd be more like "I call this a big tall green thing with branches and leaves on the branches".... perhaps that's a bit extreme, maybe I should just draw a diagram

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    Australia Avalon Member DeeMetrios's Avatar
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    Default Re: If reincarnation is true...

    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    Because they did happen in the past when viewed from the historical viewpoint. In this physical world there is time... Which is relative.
    so ...... "future life regression" should be possible ?

    does reincarnation happen in chronological order ?
    Last edited by DeeMetrios; 10th January 2018 at 04:59. Reason: added question

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