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Thread: Trump is NOT the answer

  1. Link to Post #101
    United States Avalon Member Sammy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    To Fellow Aspirant

    I understood the words Turiya chose to make his point and when I read your post, you suggest the same point but with different words. The only thing I observed in both Turiya's post and yours is that it appeared Turiya's statement "All words are lies" was referring to (again I must use inadequate words) "Absolute Truth." Whereas your first few responses focused upon what, to me, is when words are used to describe a relative truth. Yet then, in Post #98, you refer to the Absolute Truth (again... my inadequate words) in saying "the truth is ineffable."

    So when considering "Absolute Truth" I see the statement "All words are lies..." and the statement "the truth is ineffable" as pointing to the exact same thing.

    So I ask this... I ask this to all of us here -

    Why has so much polarization manifested on this forum over this recent US presidential election?

    In fact, I now feel I need to make a thread dedicated to this discussion.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    So I ask this... I ask this to all of us here -

    Why has so much polarization manifested on this forum over this recent US presidential election?
    Because, as Dim pointed out, we still don't want to look within--at least not very deeply--including those of us on PA. We continue to look outside for a savior to rescue us from our problems when the problem IS us. The savior is within. We need rescuing from ourselves and the only person who can do that is ourself. Until we start addressing our own demons, dislikes/hatreds, beliefs, motivations, intentions, manipulations, etc. in earnest, nothing of any real substance is ever going to change, IMHO.
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    And pretty soon you won't be able to sit on the fence about the price of doing, believing, intentions of good.
    The tipping points or short fuses, get more tilted and short.
    God help us.
    I believe in life everlasting to move on, who wants to drag chaos around unless necessary to teach a lesson?

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    To Fellow Aspirant

    I understood the words Turiya chose to make his point and when I read your post, you suggest the same point but with different words. The only thing I observed in both Turiya's post and yours is that it appeared Turiya's statement "All words are lies" was referring to (again I must use inadequate words) "Absolute Truth." Whereas your first few responses focused upon what, to me, is when words are used to describe a relative truth. Yet then, in Post #98, you refer to the Absolute Truth (again... my inadequate words) in saying "the truth is ineffable."

    So when considering "Absolute Truth" I see the statement "All words are lies..." and the statement "the truth is ineffable" as pointing to the exact same thing.

    So I ask this... I ask this to all of us here -

    Why has so much polarization manifested on this forum over this recent US presidential election?

    In fact, I now feel I need to make a thread dedicated to this discussion.
    Fantastic.

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  9. Link to Post #105
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    1 - The answer to what?

    and

    2 - If we are able to agree on the what, is anyone an answer to that?

    I am beginning to think that your thread title may have been trying to suggest this very thing... that not only is Trump not the answer, but perhaps no one is the answer. Am I on the right track? But this still leaves me wondering... answer to what?

    So finally I ask the original question again... if I have it right... what is it that anyone might be the answer to?

    I believe that the responses to this question are critical for this excellent thread to move past the duality hole it sometimes has descended into.
    I still think that the answer is LOVE. Which sounds totally flaky contrived unrealistic deluded etc to many I am sure. But as I have said before on other posts, one does not dismantle the master's house with the master's tools - I very much believe this to be true. I have seen it time and time again.

    I see how whenever people come together in an effort to address problems, more problems are created through division, blame and shame, ego trips, etc - and of course the patterns that are aimed at being overthrown are inevitably recreated. History repeats itself. Etc.

    So, to move from the duality of the mind to the unity and unconditional love of the heart is, to me, the only viable answer that will lead to a natural, effortless shift in the status quo. There will be no need for policing, laws, money.... with a collective shift in consciousness we would all be free to create and live the utopian ideal many of us yearn for.

    SO how does this collective shift come about? I used to think I could will a personal shift into being for myself, and that the results of my conscious decision and actions would contribute to a "hundredth monkey" type scenario for the collective consciousness and vibrational level of all beings on the planet. I have my doubts now that my will has anything to do with it. In fact, I am beginning to suspect that my will is a roadblock to the process, and I have been endeavoring as of late to take my will out of that particular equation, and am focusing instead solely on the basics for what I need day to day to stay alive (some would call that survival mode, and admittedly it is not a very comfortable place to be. But is it comfortable to make a shift in consciousness that demotes the mind to a backseat position?).

    Either I am being tricked into this latest mode of thinking and doing, or it is some kind of overwhelming trend in my life, governed and steered by a force much greater than myself (which is at least how it feels).

    I think it basically comes down to control. Free will. Personal power versus a "higher power"

    Self determination. Manifestation, Abraham Hicks and the Secret. Sorcery and the occult. Manipulation of the world to suit our needs and wants.

    Releasement of ego. Recognizing control as an illusion. Flexible, supple surrender.

    And then we have: chinese handcuffs, wheels of Karma, and the hydra. "resistance is futile"

    So is it either or? Both and? Victims and victimizers. Controllers and controllees. Dog eat dog, eat or be eaten. How many versions of the truth are there?

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Well said ceetee9, if we look at it in another way it does not matter who the president is, we have to think of it as a mirror, it reflects back our thoughts but It does not determine the choices we can make.

    The problem is always the belief that we have no power and therefore we must blame someone else,
    the reaction of blaming others is only logical if we have that belief, but the only thing that is really logical is love, because it does not omit truth.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    We need to understand the varying perspectives of others and how they are formed. Most people, based on their own personal experiences, form their world view. If they don't agree with us, it isn't because they are 'in denial' deluded or all f"d up in the head.

    It's a shadow play, where we have witnessed or experienced, first hand, the shadow aspect of their belief system, and reject it. We may have suffered deeply from being exposed to that shadow.

    The shadow aspect of liberalism, is the idea that we have zero control over our lives, where every aspect of life, including tje dynamics of interpersonal relationships, can be reduced down to a series of automatic political reflexes. But that is the shadow aspect -- which those hiding in their safe spaces adhere to. Most liberals do not.

    Right wing libertarianism imagines that the locus of control is within us and should only be exercised from within or voluntarily. Norman Vincent Peale espoused this, in "thePower of Positive Thinking." This fundamental ideology works well, in a society of caring individuals who respect the rule of law. If not, the fundamentals break down, revealing its shadow, in a "might makes right," form of fascism.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 13th December 2016 at 20:20.

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  15. Link to Post #108
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by The Freedom Train (here)
    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    1 - The answer to what?

    and

    2 - If we are able to agree on the what, is anyone an answer to that?

    I am beginning to think that your thread title may have been trying to suggest this very thing... that not only is Trump not the answer, but perhaps no one is the answer. Am I on the right track? But this still leaves me wondering... answer to what?

    So finally I ask the original question again... if I have it right... what is it that anyone might be the answer to?

    I believe that the responses to this question are critical for this excellent thread to move past the duality hole it sometimes has descended into.
    I still think that the answer is LOVE. Which sounds totally flaky contrived unrealistic deluded etc to many I am sure. But as I have said before on other posts, one does not dismantle the master's house with the master's tools - I very much believe this to be true. I have seen it time and time again.

    I see how whenever people come together in an effort to address problems, more problems are created through division, blame and shame, ego trips, etc - and of course the patterns that are aimed at being overthrown are inevitably recreated. History repeats itself. Etc.

    So, to move from the duality of the mind to the unity and unconditional love of the heart is, to me, the only viable answer that will lead to a natural, effortless shift in the status quo. There will be no need for policing, laws, money.... with a collective shift in consciousness we would all be free to create and live the utopian ideal many of us yearn for.

    SO how does this collective shift come about? I used to think I could will a personal shift into being for myself, and that the results of my conscious decision and actions would contribute to a "hundredth monkey" type scenario for the collective consciousness and vibrational level of all beings on the planet. I have my doubts now that my will has anything to do with it. In fact, I am beginning to suspect that my will is a roadblock to the process, and I have been endeavoring as of late to take my will out of that particular equation, and am focusing instead solely on the basics for what I need day to day to stay alive (some would call that survival mode, and admittedly it is not a very comfortable place to be. But is it comfortable to make a shift in consciousness that demotes the mind to a backseat position?).

    Either I am being tricked into this latest mode of thinking and doing, or it is some kind of overwhelming trend in my life, governed and steered by a force much greater than myself (which is at least how it feels).

    I think it basically comes down to control. Free will. Personal power versus a "higher power"

    Self determination. Manifestation, Abraham Hicks and the Secret. Sorcery and the occult. Manipulation of the world to suit our needs and wants.

    Releasement of ego. Recognizing control as an illusion. Flexible, supple surrender.

    And then we have: chinese handcuffs, wheels of Karma, and the hydra. "resistance is futile"

    So is it either or? Both and? Victims and victimizers. Controllers and controllees. Dog eat dog, eat or be eaten. How many versions of the truth are there?
    There is nothing more hallowed, in my mind than those (most of us) stuck in survival mode, who are still able to step outside of those constraints to ponder, what life is about; to grapple with others over philosophical issues...to retain our humanity.

    We are on a planet whose population has increased exponentially and we are sliding down an economic, ideological and political incline that ends in the third world. There isn't much we, as individuals can do about it, without interfering in the rights of others.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Again, I want to make something really really clear here and Kiwi Elf it would help if you read what I say VERY carefully.
    Why,... I'm flattered AutumnW... (I'm really not the one you need to worry about) ... (psssst... please look up the term, selective perception)... and btw, I wasn't the slightest bit annoyed by your discussion,.. it's very educational & interesting

    Perhaps if the problem was more clearly defined, then it would be easier to arrive at THE answer
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 14th December 2016 at 13:08.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Again, I want to make something really really clear here and Kiwi Elf it would help if you read what I say VERY carefully.
    Why,... I'm flattered AutumnW... (I'm really not the one you need to worry about) ... (psssst... please look up the term, selective perception)... and btw, I wasn't the slightest bit annoyed by your discussion,.. it's very educational & interesting

    Perhaps if the problem was more clearly defined, then it would be easier to arrive at THE answer
    Thanks for your post. I understand how you may have felt belittled and why you reacted the way you did. Take care!

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Sam,

    In answer to your post asking me to clarify what I meant by the term, "not the answer," -- it is a figure of speech, loosely meaning "not the answer to our problems." I was using it as in, "not the answer to our problems, foreign or domestic."

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    The 'polarization' is not between Trump and Hilary supporters. I preferred Trump over Hilary, like I prefer Mussolini over Hitler.

    The real split on this forum is between a hardcore clique of Willy Wonka fantasists who believe that Obama/The Blue Avians/The SSP/The White Dragon Society/The Resistance Movement/Trump is somehow going to magically gift us an easy ride to freedom, and the rest of us, who believe the process of human liberation will take real work and dedication. Trump is just the Savior of the Month.

    Is the alt media as free as it claims to be? Is the split really between the alt media and the MSM? I see the alt media as a maximum security cuckoo's nest for potential disruptors. It is just as infiltrated as the MSM, if not more so.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Great AutumnW, thanks for clarifying... I now understand what you have been getting which is broad and generalized as opposed to something specific.

    In fact, I could put in anyone's name in place of "Trump" and draw the same conclusion with only one exception.

    That person being...

    the name that points to myself.


    If "I," Sam Hunter (Sam Hunter being this one life expression of the All That Is which I will further refer to simply as "I" for the rest of this post), perceive a problem and that problem appears to be something "I" have generated, then perhaps there are changes "I" need to make within so that "I" do not create the same problem again. In addition, "I" may need to make amends to others if the problem "I" created harmed others.

    If "I" perceive a problem where it appears others and/or myself might be harmed, even if this something is something "I" did not create and "I" have the interest and wherewithal to change the effects of that problem, "I" operate such that "I" have the right and possibly the responsibility to act to do so.

    In all of the above, it is all and only "I," myself, that acts such that "I" might resolve something "I" perceive as a problem.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    The 'polarization' is not between Trump and Hilary supporters. I preferred Trump over Hilary, like I prefer Mussolini over Hitler.

    The real split on this forum is between a hardcore clique of Willy Wonka fantasists who believe that Obama/The Blue Avians/The SSP/The White Dragon Society/The Resistance Movement/Trump is somehow going to magically gift us an easy ride to freedom, and the rest of us, who believe the process of human liberation will take real work and dedication. Trump is just the Savior of the Month.

    Is the alt media as free as it claims to be? Is the split really between the alt media and the MSM? I see the alt media as a maximum security cuckoo's nest for potential disruptors. It is just as infiltrated as the MSM, if not more so.

    Totally agree.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    The real split on this forum is between a hardcore clique of Willy Wonka fantasists who believe that Obama/The Blue Avians/The SSP/The White Dragon Society/The Resistance Movement/Trump is somehow going to magically gift us an easy ride to freedom, and the rest of us, who believe the process of human liberation will take real work and dedication.
    But that's sort of always been a division, at least even since I joined P.A. it has been, right?

    I think it must be very attractive and VERY relieving to think that "something" has things "in hand"... in fact I think it's what was engineered into us genetic-slave-labor Plebs, seeing an authority as a savior and someone who will "do for us".Once we have something to have faith in (be it religion, government, what ever) we tend to be pretty complacent and pliable.

    I personally find this a very dis-empowering attitude as you are effectively giving up your power to an outside entity and hoping for the best, in my experience this type of situation (someone else saving you) rarely happens, and when it does it's never what you originally thought it was (ulterior motives..).
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Yes TargeT the split has always been there. In True-man show terms it is the dialogue between those who are invested in maintaining the illusion, and those who want to 'break out', whatever breakout means.

    Note the mischacterizations. I read several boards, and Trump-promoting posters are all using the same playbook.

    1) Anyone who disagrees with Trump is a 'butthurt liberal Hilary supporter' who needs to 'deal with it'
    2) The MSM is 'controlled', the alt media is 'free'.
    3) We are supposed to be shocked and surprised that Trump 'came out of nowhere' despite the fact that Oprah was asking him to run for President decades ago. The establisment knows we don't like them, so they try and paint their next choice as a maverick outsider, just like they did with Obama.

    We are also told we need to 'wait and see' about Trump. Waiting and seeing is what this part of the media has been doing for nearly a decade.

    The healthiest thing to do is take a step back, admit both sides of politics are co-opted, and try and build a future without them.
    Last edited by Daozen; 14th December 2016 at 17:14.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    I would submit to you that the system that was created in what we live in today is on the brink and is close to becoming not workable . People who are in charge, want to stay in charge, of their wealth, and their comfort. They want to be able to move about in a lifestyle they are accustom too. Not in some box in the ground. I remember reading somewhere I believe on PA that the offspring of some of the most wealthy in the world ( 2/3rds) want a workable society , why not after all they are at the top anyways . I don't envy that but what I am saying is those that created what is now failing and being patched on a daily basis just to stay afloat may be saying uncle and realize it is time for a change and are willing to give this a shot . After all if this entire system collapses within it won't be safe to go anywhere for sometime and thats for everyone. And baby , it won't matter how much your worth at that point.

    And one more thing , Like I have said before on this forum, Trump didn't need the fame, or the money or put his family thru the ringer or bring up any dirt from the past. The man doesn't drink or smoke and he is pulling Americas best talent from everywhere to steer one big axx ship. He didn't need to take this on, but he has kids and grand kids too, and like all of us , we will be leaving the earth one day and having our review of life , to feel everything that everyone else has felt as a result of our own actions both good or bad. I have faith and I certainly don't have horse blinders on but what one has to recognize the environment of running this country is much more larger than any of can realize.It is an entirely different level all together. And there are certainly a lot of dirty individuals out there to contend with as well, just as the saying goes swimming with the sharks. . And that's on a daily basis. Give the man his due for now, he earned it and hopefully for all the right reasons.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    both sides of politics are co-opted, and try and build a future without them.
    Just a funny note, you say both sides but spent the majority of your post talking about one side.

    It's pretty impressive how deeply rooted our "choice of sides" can be & how hard it is to shake it.... I still "tend" to be more "conservative" than not, that's how I was... programmed (raised).
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Daozen (here)
    both sides of politics are co-opted, and try and build a future without them.
    Just a funny note, you say both sides but spent the majority of your post talking about one side.
    Hilary lost the election, and there's no Hilary_will_turn this_country_around meme being propagated in the alt media, so there's nothing to debunk. But I agree that our thoughts are colored by our upbringing.
    Last edited by Daozen; 14th December 2016 at 18:07.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    I think it must be very attractive and VERY relieving to think that "something" has things "in hand"... in fact I think it's what was engineered into us genetic-slave-labor Plebs, seeing an authority as a savior and someone who will "do for us".Once we have something to have faith in (be it religion, government, what ever) we tend to be pretty complacent and pliable.

    I personally find this a very dis-empowering attitude as you are effectively giving up your power to an outside entity and hoping for the best, in my experience this type of situation (someone else saving you) rarely happens, and when it does it's never what you originally thought it was (ulterior motives..).
    It is amazing to me how, in mostly every discussion I find on this forum, for me it oftentimes boils down to philosophical concepts like free will versus determinism.

    Since it seems to me like most people here on the forum are awakening, then the question remains - how much of that process is determined by the assertion of our own wills, and how much of that process is out of our direct, individual control?

    I would like to add a musing I posted on another thread about dreams, regarding the collective awakening process:

    "I would like to say that my hope is for all of us to fulfill this destiny collectively. I believe, in fact, as I move through each day and assimilate new information and experiences, that it is inevitable.

    We are all in this together.

    There is no need for a messiah, because we are all leading each other, unwittingly, to our collective salvation.

    I am watching myself relax into the eternal flow, as +dim so eloquently puts it, in the face of extreme adversity and the most triggering events of my life. I am in awe of this process. The sense of calm, peace, stillness that I am experiencing is - ineffable. My mind cannot explain it. My mind wants to have a debate about control, and the rest of me wants to lie down quietly in bed. I feel like a caterpillar in a cocoon turning into goo."

    So, on the one hand, I do see that we do not need a "messiah" - we are all the messiahs for each other here, without even knowing it (in that, by our very existence and presence we provide the mirrors for each other that facilitate the awakening process). And on the other hand, I see that our will seems to have very little to do with the actual awakening process. In fact, in my own experience, my own personal will (ego?) seems to get in the way.

    so that's my two cents on the matter anyway.

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to The Freedom Train For This Post:

    AutumnW (14th December 2016), ceetee9 (14th December 2016)

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