The great wall

[Chester]

ahhh I refrained from mentioning two other slightly important factors -

We understand its not just about immigration. Its about drug trafficking, its about sex trafficking.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=F4XMKR5Lz88

[Satori]

Walls are everywhere. Some you can see, some you can't. Some we build for ourselves and others are built for us; to our advantage or disadvantage. The term "prison planet" or "hived mind" springs to my mind.

When the rate of a country's immigration, legal or illegal, exceeds the rate of assimilation, there is a very serious problem for any country. The US is among many countries facing that serious problem, among others. A long term, meaningful and constructive solution to illegal immigration is to address and solve the deleterious conditions in the countries from which these people come, such that they are motivated to stay in their birthlands rather than flee from them. But, that is a project and problem the scale of which exceeds the scale of building a wall--whatever form it takes.

[East Sun]

Why do people listen to political propaganda. imo he had no intention of building a wall. boy bush was stupid enough to
begin a make-shift wall. Did anyone fall for that absurdity?
Trump now says he will make the Mexicans pay for it. More b.s. -- his way out, smart huh!

[WhiteLove]

I think that when a child is born, into that child's destiny should not be that he or she will grow up to one day build someone's wall for some stupid reason. It is not an act of love to expose anyone to such a destiny and it does not make any sense at all. The idea of building a wall and that it is necessary is coming from those that are not going to build the wall themselves, but they think it is fine when someone else does it for them. Do you really think Trump would be so stupid that he would stand there at the wall building it day after day? No way, he would never do it... And nobody else in the upper class would... But they think it is fine and necessary. Just beautiful... How anyone can be so cruel to use someone to live life doing something like that, with an increased risk of suicide, is beyond me...

So are we witnessing an overall lack of compassion in today's policy making?

Here is the evidence that Trump has spoken of building a wall:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8vTyR7s0vXs

Just to make it clear that Trump has spoken of building a wall...

Just to wake people up, we are not in a 4th density peace world yet, a lot of things that we witness and hear overall, are to a great degree false and not out of truth, peace and love. Don't let yourselves be distracted and deceived by all of this stuff, set a higher standard for yourselves and live up to it with integrity and peace in mind.

[Michi]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
I think that when a child is born, into that child's destiny should not be that he or she will grow up to one day build someone's wall for some stupid reason. It is not an act of love to expose anyone to such a destiny and it does not make any sense at all. The idea of building a wall and that it is necessary is coming from those that are not going to build the wall themselves, but they think it is fine when someone else does it for them. Do you really think Trump would be so stupid that he would stand there at the wall building it day after day? No way, he would never do it... And nobody else in the upper class would... But they think it is fine and necessary. Just beautiful... How anyone can be so cruel to use someone to live life doing something like that, with an increased risk of suicide, is beyond me...

So are we witnessing an overall lack of compassion in today's policy making?

Here is the evidence that Trump has spoken of building a wall:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8vTyR7s0vXs

Just to make it clear that Trump has spoken of building a wall...

Just to wake people up, we are not in a 4th density peace world yet, a lot of things that we witness and hear overall, are to a great degree false and not out of truth, peace and love. Don't let yourselves be distracted and deceived by all of this stuff, set a higher standard for yourselves and live up to it with integrity and peace in mind.

Pretty eye-opening video.
I hope that Trump is not doing the same witch hunt as Hitler did.
The lady stated it really well - the proper thing is to take responsibility for the lower society.

[Chester]

Americans Spent About A Trillion Dollars On Illegal Drugs In The Last Decade

One trillion is 1,000 Billion spent in the last decade - that is 100 Billion PER YEAR.

What % of this 100 Billion are profits generated by Mexican nationals for drugs trafficked across the border? Lets just say only 20%? 20 Billion?

The Wall will cost perhaps 20 Billion.

It looks to me like Mexico will pay and pay and pay for years to come when this wall is built.



Now consider the cost to society for illegal drugs - Estimates are now approaching 200 Billion (and climbing) a year. Imagine cutting this by just 10% thanks to the impact of the wall... The US saves 20 Billion (and climbing) each year.

This is only one of the many ways Mexico pays and US society can justify paying for the wall up front.

It's a no brainer just by looking at this one benefit alone.

[turiya]

"Para todos mis amigos mexicanos"--Donald J. Trump

M.A.M.O.N. - Latinos VS. Donald Trump
short film cortometraje
(Published on Oct 30, 2016)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q__bSi5rBlw

[Carmody]

well, you can't have a terrorism ruse to drive the public into funding the war and aggression machine..unless you have the strife to make it happen.

This is why the US is in the mess it is today.

Against the will of the public, the will of the government offices involved, and more... the us/Mexico border has been forcibly left open by the insiders that appear to be associated with whomever is backing Obama.

nothing of this has anything to do with human compassion, or race integration, free will, immigration, rights, or what not.

It only has to do with providing the consensus in the public to be motivated to be emotional about the subject in a negative and aggressive way. You can't have war if no one shows up, so the groups involved created an unchecked immigration problem for the USA and also for Europe. One where the angry young men that remained in the middle east were purposely brought into Europe to provide the fire of ignition- for a new war. A total war. A totalitarian enabling - total war.

This is the way it has always been done. Gotta create the situation that creates the enemy. This has been the nature of the reports on this subject, for at least the past 5 years.

So why this question about a wall, when a wall is the ONLY thing that can correct this mess so we DON'T erupt into total war? The wall does not have to be physical, but it has to be effective. And Obama has forced ineffectiveness on the US border patrol. He has forced their failure.

There is a game afoot, a deep game and it happens in stages. Unchecked immigration a large part of it's ground works. It has nothing to do with democracy or democratic ideals. It has to do with it's opposite--- which is fascism, butchery, murder, genocide and total oligarchical control of the planet.

Trump building a wall (physical or electronic)will kick it right in the balls.

But that's OK, the oligarchy will find a way to integrate his wall into their aims. Eventually. They want their north American union, and they will do what it takes to get it. That's been the aim for a good 200+ years. turning you into a willing weakened serf in the same move, is part of the plan. Kill the middle class while telling them they are being good liberals and humanitarians. Take all that power and concentrate it. After all, the average person does not have the cranial lobes to see the depth of the problem. Lies and half truths work quite well.

A wall and the reason behind it ...are still symptoms.

You have to take off the head.

[Chester]

Great Post, Carmody.

So who and where is the head and once we know who and where, how then do we take it off?

[Carmody]

It's the same sort of people that forced Spartacus to march on Rome when he was trying to get away. (slave revolt, etc)

Then the roman senate was told of the situation and gave all their representative powers to a single war leader, who promised to save them.

The republic was dead.... and it was the rule of despots, Caesars, emperors and blood butchers for 400 years.

It was that first wealthy senator, he and his connections forced Spartacus to seemingly march on Rome by blocking his exit and forcing him toward Rome. Then they created the story of how Rome would fall, if the war leader was not empowered with dictatorial powers. That killed the republic.

If you look at the USA right now, what do you see? Not much different. The best tricks are the old tricks. The best plan is a simple plan.

[Chester]

What I believe is that there was a feeble attempt by Obama to become that leader (consolidated power) and the continuance and furtherance of consolidation of that power in passing of the baton to Hillary. And this (so far) has failed. (To me... these folks were at least one of the heads).

I don't feel Trump has any desire to be any despot or create bloodbaths. I don't see him to be someone who would allow others to push him to this either. I think folks will be quite surprised (in a positive way) as to how this will all work out.

I have also been wrong before... sometimes quite wrong.

[shaberon]

Posted by WhiteLove (here)
Some are pro the border wall, but when the question comes are they prepared to stand there building the wall...

Yes, many of the people who support such a thing are the construction industry. They told me so in large numbers twenty years ago.

[Patient]

Would it not make more sense to spend time, effort and money on fixing the problems within the immigration system? If that was fixed then you wouldn't need a wall.

The immigration system needs major repair. I went into the U.S. the legal way and saw first hand how messed up it is. I invested money and started a business - that is how I entered the U.S. I was not prepared for the corruption - my business was stolen/hijacked. All assets seized through corrupted court system. I was left outside the court house completely penniless and because I am not a U.S. citizen I could not get help through other organizations like welfare for example. I had no money even for gas to drive my family back to Canada. So, at that point I was an illegal immigrant - i went to homeland security directly and told them of my situation - I was not allowed to work in the U.S. And the only option for me was to break the law to provide for my family and homeland security would not even deport me - but the senior official in that office did wish me luck. It took us almost 6 months to get out of the country.

The problems with immigration is within the U.S. itself. That is where the changes need to occur. Building a wall is almost like a false flag hiding the real problem.

[lucidity]

Posted by Bubu (here)

Posted by lucidity (here)
I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants.
What if the actual purpose of the wall was to stop American citizens escaping ?

whether to keep people out or in does not matter the point is its purpose is to limit freedom unnecesarilyand you find building it constructive? really

Yes, constructive and effective. It will provide work for many people.
Both in it's construction and in it's maintenance.
It will reduce, but not stop, the invasion of the USA by immigrants, drugs and weaponry.
(But it's a bit like locking the gate after the horse has bolted)

There is a legitimate concern that the Wall will be used to imprison those on the USA
side of the wall... That it's real function is to stop people getting out.
I wonder if anyone has asked if a similar wall will be created on the Canadian boarder.
If the answer is yes... worry!

The wall wont be a huge limit to liberties in the USA.
There are few liberties left in the USA - if you want liberty, campaign for the restoration of the constitution.
But as political protest usually results in tear gas and being beaten by police batons..... don't.

be happy :-)

[Cardillac]

just as an aside: I skimmed an article posted on Rense.com (if there was truth in article) where a Mexican construction company has offered to build this wall (!!!)-

I figure they probably don't care where they build this wall as long as they're paid for it...

Larry :-)

[Bill Ryan]

I want to bump this excellent post by Sam, articulately presenting his own experience and that of real people he knows.

He's spot-on correct in everything he says, too. Kudos. Personal experience is important in discussions like this, that can sometimes all too easily drift to idealism and unreality.

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)

Posted by WhiteLove (here)

Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
Hi Whitelove, have you ever been to another country?

Yes, but why are you asking? It is kind of like me asking you whether you have decided to be one of those building the wall?

As I see it, either people lack integrity and build the wall, in which case the persons waste a part of their life without knowing so because they were used, or they do not commit to this and hence there are nobody ready to build any wall because everyone think it is a waste of a part of their life to do so, in which case those persons were not used either... So one option brings life, the other option robs life.

Some are pro the border wall, but when the question comes are they prepared to stand there building the wall... then the story changes...

I think by large the idea of a border wall is distracting, unimportant and a waste of everybody's time. I also feel sorry for those that must build it...

I asked only because I know plenty of folks who are from the US (and I do not assume you are) who have never been to another country. Not until I was 39 years old had I ever been to another country.

What I experienced in all of the other countries I lived in and visited was how they handled illegal immigration and how they handled the discovery of folks who overstayed visas or otherwise could not prove they were in the country legally. So the purpose of my question was all and only to understand if the points I would like to follow with would be worth my time.

Here's my experience with three countries I have lived in - Note I have visited and worked in 9 other countries including Hong Kong (China), Bangkok (Thailand), the UK (both London and Manchester), Medellin (Colombia), Amsterdam (The Netherlands) and Venezuela. I learned a great deal about how various countries handle immigration, some extremely strict and some less so.

Costa Rica - If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Costa Rica without proof that you are there legally and are unable to bribe your way out of the situation you are taken to jail and held until they deport you. In addition, you are not allowed back into Costa Rica again for any reason for 5 years.

I lived in Costa Rica (legally) for over a year and know this is true and have had friends taken to jail (in one case a friend sat in the jail over a week before being deported).

Panama - If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Panama without proof that you are there legally and are unable to bribe your way out of the situation you are taken to jail and held until they deport you. In addition, you are not allowed back into Costa Rica again for any reason for at least 5 years.

I lived in Panama (legally) for 5 years. I knew several ladies from Colombia who overstayed their 90 day legal visitor stay, were caught and taken to the immigration jail and then deported.

Costa Rica and Panama (in the north) do not have a wall (Panama has a natural wall between the thin strip of land that connects Panama to Colombia which is a very thick jungle - not 100% solid but close), but both these countries enforce their immigration laws (unless you are able to bribe your way out of a situation).

The US does not enforce their immigration laws anywhere near the same level of enforcement as is found in Costa Rica, Panama and Curacao which I am about to describe.

Curacao -

Curacao has a natural "wall" called the Caribbean Sea.

Curacao provides a “Visitor Pass” good for thirty days to folks coming from countries such as the US and a few neighbors such as Colombia and Venezuela. If you do not leave before the expiration of the thirty days, you are considered to be in Curacao illegally. When a visitor arrives in Curacao, they must produce cash (either US dollars or Curacao Guilders) equivalent to $100 a day for your intended stay. They also check to make sure you have a departure ticket already paid for and the date matches how long you say you will stay in Curacao.

If you are not from a country that is allowed a visitor pass, you must get a visa to enter Curacao legally.

If you are caught by police or other empowered authorities in Curacao without proof that you are there legally then one of two things happen. If you answer questions such that the authorities do not get a feeling you are involved in any criminal activity and you can prove who you are and prove where you are living, you are asked to buy a plane ticket and leave on your own. In this case, the immigration authorities take over and follow your case to ensure that you leave. If you do not leave then they will begin looking for you or have you flagged such that if you are again discovered, they may give you one more chance to leave on your own, but after two or three chances, you are held until deported. Once you have been arrested, they hold you until you leave. They will not even pay for you to leave. They have you call relatives or friends who will buy your plane ticket to return to your home country if you cannot pay for it so yourself.

In cases where criminal activity is suspected (usually drugs) then you are immediately held until you get a relative or friend to buy your plane ticket back to your home country.

If you are ever deported, you are banned from being able to re-enter Curacao for up to five years unless they have also convicted you of a crime. If you have been convicted of a crime, once you have served your sentence in Curacao, you are deported. Depending on the crime, the time you must wait before you can legally return to Curacao varies. If you are in this situation and have re-entered Curacao and do not have legal status to be there, you are held and deported. Again, you must pay for your plane ticket off the island or get someone to pay it for you.

Curacao has about 160,000 naturalized citizens. Curacao has about 15,000 legal residents, most are “pensionados” and of those, most are from Holland. Currently, it is estimated that the illegal population is about 10,000 and currently most of these are folks from Venezuela who have overstayed their visitor pass fleeing the economic collapse in Venezuela.

If any policeman or equivalent authority is caught giving a pass to any illegal immigrant who has been flagged for deportation that official is in big trouble, would probably lose their job and may face charges. Bribes are hardly an option like in Panama and Costa Rica. I am not saying one can’t try, but in Curacao, to try this almost always gets you into bigger trouble.

I lived in Curacao for 8 years as a legal resident. I saw the problems illegals created for the safety of its citizens and legal residents and thus understand why Curacao has evolved to treat the issue as they do now which is as I described above.

I asked a very good friend of mine who has the biggest heart of just about anyone I know and who is also very involved in "the scene" in Curacao, "Why does Curacao have this policy and why do they enforce the policy?"

His responses paraphrased -

They do this NUMBER ONE to protect jobs which protects the economy of Curacao.

NUMBER TWO - Within the illegal community are criminals, some dangerous, some "off-island" gang related... almost all drug trafficking related (Curacao used as a way station to Holland and Europe and other parts of the world). This activity also costs Curacao citizens and legal residents not just economically, but threatens the safety of their citizens and legal residents.

WoW! - the exact same two reasons you hear from citizens (and many legal residents) in the US.

My own comments - Again, the two reasons above are the exact same reasons folks in the US want something done about illegal immigration. The difference between Curacao and the US is, also again, that Curacao has their own "natural wall" already in place. Because they have this natural barrier they are able to reasonably uphold and enforce their laws. My friend pointed out that their laws are "Dutch laws" and are known to be quite liberal and quite compassionate. In addition, he pointed out these laws have a few loopholes which he and many in Curacao hopes the Curacao legislature will address. But he says that most citizens and residents want and appreciate their immigration enforcement and that there is no situation where officials or official bodies refuse to participate in the enforcement much less publicly oppose such enforcement and which proclaim their refusal to cooperate with enforcement such as we find all over the US. The only folks who oppose immigration enforcement in Curacao are business owners who exploit their status by paying them lower wages. This is also one of the issues that is mirrored in the US and part of the economic negative effect.

It is my opinion that Curacao does a reasonably good job and a humane job for its citizens and legal residents as well as those who are illegal or end up overstaying visitor passes and visas (which makes them illegal also) with regards to enforcement of their laws regarding illegals. It is my opinion the ability to do so is assisted by their natural wall.

If you wish to judge me as lacking integrity, that's your right. I see my analysis as practical while maintaining compassion for ALL effected by the current situation in the US which is a pretty big mess.

Note, I left out the fact that in the US, there is an additional otherwise preventable terrible situation regarding the safety of the millions of undocumented folks who are abused because they fear that going to the police would risk their stay in the US.

I personally know of two women who are forced to be prostitutes for this very reason - both have at least one child and in one case, one of the children was born here where the impregnation was from one of her "clients" who takes no responsibility for fathering the child.

And now for an analogy. An individual that has a terrible drug and alcohol problem that is destroying their life and seriously negatively effecting the lives of their family and loved ones. Quite often, treatment only succeeds when these sick individuals are first prevented from having access to the drugs and alcohol by entering treatment centers where they cannot leave until they have overcome their inability to say no. This is a wall. I know this wall well as I experienced this wall myself. My family and loved ones are thankful for that wall. They saw how I failed again and again to stop until I had no choice because of that wall.

It is the opinion of many (enough to get Trump elected) that the wall is the place to start. My opinion (and the opinion of many others) is that when we look at the situation in the US as it is now, it is hard to make a sane argument against solid border security and it is hard to argue that a serious physical impediment isn't the place to start.

[Bubu]

Posted by lucidity (here)

Posted by Bubu (here)

Posted by lucidity (here)
I'm certain Trump is serious about creating this wall.
They have one just like it running around Isreal... if it's good enough for the Israelis...

It shouldn't be too expensive to build this thing, i hear he'll be recruiting prison inmates
to do much of the work.. that's going to give them something constructive to do and
perhaps some of them will learn new, valuable vocational skills that might be useful
when they finish their sentence and return to society.

I think it's a wonderful project. I can't help thinking of the Hoover Dam that provided
work for thousands of labourers after the Great Depression.

One thought though, i think many people are imagining that this wall will keep 'out' the illegal immigrants.
What if the actual purpose of the wall was to stop American citizens escaping ?

whether to keep people out or in does not matter the point is its purpose is to limit freedom unnecesarilyand you find building it constructive? really

Yes, constructive and effective. It will provide work for many people.
Both in it's construction and in it's maintenance.
It will reduce, but not stop, the invasion of the USA by immigrants, drugs and weaponry.
(But it's a bit like locking the gate after the horse has bolted)

There is a legitimate concern that the Wall will be used to imprison those on the USA
side of the wall... That it's real function is to stop people getting out.
I wonder if anyone has asked if a similar wall will be created on the Canadian boarder.
If the answer is yes... worry!

The wall wont be a huge limit to liberties in the USA.
There are few liberties left in the USA - if you want liberty, campaign for the restoration of the constitution.
But as political protest usually results in tear gas and being beaten by police batons..... don't.

be happy :-)

work? yes of course that's how slaves think. " I need a job" " I am happy that I have a job for the masters" The slaves are always happy to work for money to buy goods that they themselves made while the masters are busy orchestrating and printing money every now and then to finance their priority projects.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...41-Demon-cracy.

'the best plan is a simple plan" agree that is why I only plan for myself.

[lucidity]

.. work? yes of course that's how slaves think. " I need a job" " I am happy that I have a job for the masters" The slaves are always happy to work for money to buy goods that they themselves made while the masters are busy orchestrating and printing money every now and then to finance their priority projects.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...41-Demon-cracy.

'the best plan is a simple plan" agree that is why I only plan for myself.

Well... Trump was interviewing John Allison in Nov about taking up the Treasury Secretary position.
Allison wants to end the fed and bring the power of money creation back to a national central bank.
See here: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...rview-iw3k9cx9

Are you _really_ making a plan ?
What's your plan ?

[East Sun]

Well, now I'm more informed about Trump' wall. Thank you all of the above posters.

[Helene West]

I agree with Bill on the significance of Sam Hunter's post on his experiences in other countries. For me his post was also the most useful on the thread. All the lovey-dovey, airy-fairy nonsense by the OP dissipates like pollution in the face of 1st hand experiential accounts.

My heart is very heavy right now.
In a 24 hr period I've heard that trump is being surrounded by James Baker III, dick cheney and cancerous relic kissinger, all of which means it's over, he's done, any independence is fiction.
Then Jon Rappaport's article today of elections being federalized by DHS. We can't get a breather....every day we learn how controlled we are...