+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

  1. Link to Post #1
    United States Avalon Member starlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th November 2016
    Posts
    73
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 740 times in 73 posts

    Default Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Hi all,

    I recently came across a fairly interesting article with the main argument being that BECAUSE there is intelligent design all around us, there MUST be an intelligent creator:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-...b_1303613.html

    Quote from article:
    "Late in his life the previously ardent atheist Anthony Flew famously noted, “What I think the DNA material has done is that it has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements to work together.”

    I was discussing this exact topic the other night with one of my dear friends whom, like many others, steered away from religion once he started digging deeper into science. We talked for an hour about this subject, and at the end he was 100% convinced that there IS a creator and there could be no other explanation.

    Personally, this makes complete sense to me. When looking at the biological make up of everything around us, it seems silly to say that it all appeared by "chance."

    Many say science disproves a God... but could it perhaps be a way of explaining the intelligent design of creation by a divine being?

    I welcome any and all contributions to this thread.

  2. The Following 19 Users Say Thank You to starlight For This Post:

    Art (23rd February 2017), Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), Atlas (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), ghostrider (22nd February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), petra (24th February 2017), Satori (22nd February 2017), sdv (24th February 2017), silvanelf (14th July 2019), Star Mariner (22nd February 2017), Star Tsar (22nd February 2017), WhiteLove (22nd February 2017)

  3. Link to Post #2
    UK Avalon Member Star Mariner's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th November 2011
    Posts
    1,688
    Thanks
    9,329
    Thanked 10,852 times in 1,609 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Thanks. Intelligent design is absolutely evident, even to the closed-minded and the atheist - if only they'd think about it for a moment!

    It occurs to me quite simply that everywhere we look around us, from the microscopic to macro- we see "order". I don't know if this is a provable scientific principle per se, but order, in my view, cannot 'by accident' emerge from chaos. Order, therefore, is put in order intentionally, by design, by that which created it. An intelligence, obviously.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

  4. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Star Mariner For This Post:

    Art (23rd February 2017), Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (22nd February 2017), WhiteLove (22nd February 2017)

  5. Link to Post #3
    United States Avalon Member ghostrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2011
    Location
    Sand Springs Ok
    Age
    54
    Posts
    7,428
    Thanks
    9,893
    Thanked 28,592 times in 6,628 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Everyone is different, I follow something like what some ETs call the Creation... The Force in the Star Wars movies explains it in our terms here on Earth... Some other worlds call it the Power... It's an individual walk , people are free to term it to what best suits their understanding... I believe as long as we exercise self responsibility, we can't go wrong...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

  6. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to ghostrider For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), Star Mariner (22nd February 2017), starlight (22nd February 2017)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    12th September 2016
    Posts
    471
    Thanks
    1,156
    Thanked 2,998 times in 448 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    This thought just popped into my head as I read your post and I can't ignore the feeling it brought to me...

    What if the creator is us - all of us - and we created a means for us to try out our creation in a physical form. As we experience life here, we see the mistakes that we make as human beings so it seems that there is a need to continue to experience life in this way and strive to correct our mistakes.

    Of course we couldn't come here with our complete powers of creativity or it would be too quick and easy to change things - and if we all had the power to give ourselves anything we wanted in an instant, imagine the chaos around here with everything changing constantly. So, we made some rules for ourselves to follow.

    When people mention an intelligent creator they immediately think of one entity. It could very well be all of us.

  8. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to Patient For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), fourty-two (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), Holly Lindin (28th February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), LoneWolf76 (22nd February 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), sanma (23rd February 2017), sdv (24th February 2017), Star Mariner (22nd February 2017), starlight (22nd February 2017)

  9. Link to Post #5
    UK Avalon Member Star Mariner's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th November 2011
    Posts
    1,688
    Thanks
    9,329
    Thanked 10,852 times in 1,609 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    ^ You have the answer. Everything you said is to my understanding, and in a nutshell, completely correct.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Star Mariner For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  11. Link to Post #6
    United States Avalon Member Foxie Loxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    20th September 2015
    Location
    Central NY
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,079
    Thanks
    67,683
    Thanked 17,357 times in 2,953 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Here I am going to quote from a scientist who chose to withdraw from The System & went into hiding. I quote from The Blue Planet Project.

    "THE SOURCE has to be a form of intelligent energy operating at the highest possible point of the Frequency Spectrum. If such an energy exists at all, it might permeate the Universe & maintain equal control of each component part. Because of its very high frequency, so high that the energy particles are virtually standing still, the Source has no need to replenish itself in any way that would be acceptable to our environmental sciences. It could actually create & destroy matter by manipulating the lower energies. It would be timeless, because it exists beyond all time fields. It would be infinite because it is not confined by Three-Dimensional Space.

    Perhaps if we were in a pure energy state, each particle of energy would itself serve as a synapse, & information could be stored by a slight alteration in frequency....no complex circuitry would be required, & no physical body would be necessary either. The energy patterns would not need material form, it instead would permeate the entire Universe. ...impulse of low energy passing through your brain. If it were so desired, it would control those pulses & thus control your thoughts."

    I am no longer in possession of this book, but I do remember I had quite a time trying to buy it after I heard it mentioned on the History Channel!

  12. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to Foxie Loxie For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Jayke (21st July 2019), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), sdv (24th February 2017), skogvokter (22nd February 2017), Star Mariner (23rd February 2017), Star Tsar (22nd February 2017), starlight (22nd February 2017)

  13. Link to Post #7
    United States Avalon Member starlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th November 2016
    Posts
    73
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 740 times in 73 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    WOW!

    Thank you for your answers thus far. This topic is so interesting because there are no right or wrong answers. We are all blindly throwing darts here.

    Quote When people mention an intelligent creator they immediately think of one entity. It could very well be all of us.
    You might be on to something, Patient. We are creators in our own physical world as we know it- we think, we act, we create. Our ability to act on free will is what makes us creators of our own physical reality. This reminds me of the 'butterfly effect.' This perspective really gets your mind thinking.

    ------------------

    Quote "THE SOURCE has to be a form of intelligent energy operating at the highest possible point of the Frequency Spectrum. If such an energy exists at all, it might permeate the Universe & maintain equal control of each component part. Because of its very high frequency, so high that the energy particles are virtually standing still, the Source has no need to replenish itself in any way that would be acceptable to our environmental sciences. It could actually create & destroy matter by manipulating the lower energies. It would be timeless, because it exists beyond all time fields. It would be infinite because it is not confined by Three-Dimensional Space.
    What an interesting quote Foxie Loxie. I can't even imagine a source that fits such criteria. Its amazing to me that although we are an extremely intelligent species, there is MUCH more we have yet to learn and acknowledge. Maybe we will evolve to learn more as time moves forward?

  14. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to starlight For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019)

  15. Link to Post #8
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,796
    Thanks
    77,253
    Thanked 273,979 times in 20,271 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Quote Posted by Foxie Loxie (here)
    Here I am going to quote from a scientist who chose to withdraw from The System & went into hiding. I quote from The Blue Planet Project.

    " ... "

    I am no longer in possession of this book, but I do remember I had quite a time trying to buy it after I heard it mentioned on the History Channel!
    If I have this right, the bulk of it may be here:
    The author is cited as 'O.H. Krill', but it was actually co-written by John Lear and John Grace ('Valdemar Valerian'). It was Grace (as Valerian) who complied the 'Matrix' series of books:
    That's not to say that any of this is incorrect... Lear and Grace knew a lot of stuff.

    Re Intelligent Design, I'm pretty convinced that this was indeed the driving force behind the extraordinary biosphere we have on Planet Earth. But it's far more like someone's giant science project (maybe ourselves included). For the 'Intelligent Creator', we may have to look no further than a race (or maybe a number of races) of extremely advanced ET scientists.

  16. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Atlas (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), Noelle (22nd February 2017), Omni (27th February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), sdv (24th February 2017), skogvokter (22nd February 2017), Star Tsar (22nd February 2017), starlight (23rd February 2017), uzn (22nd February 2017)

  17. Link to Post #9
    Bhutan Avalon Member enigma3's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st July 2016
    Posts
    379
    Thanks
    3,415
    Thanked 2,409 times in 365 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Intelligent design is close, but no cigar. THAT (God, Buddha Nature take your pick) is awareness infused with loving kindness, or compassion, or love, or whatever. And that is not intelligence but wisdom. THAT occupies all space. We as humans walk through it, not displace it. If our eyes were attuned to the molecular level only instead of the gross physical level we can experience with our senses, we would see mainly space. All that space between atoms, molecules, etc. That space IS awareness infused with love.
    We all have seen many people who have gobs of intelligence but no wisdom. Afraid to open up their hearts and let wisdom flow.

  18. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to enigma3 For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (23rd February 2017), uzn (23rd February 2017)

  19. Link to Post #10
    Avalon Member uzn's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2015
    Location
    Earth for now
    Posts
    1,391
    Thanks
    4,344
    Thanked 10,471 times in 1,357 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Just to be a smartarse:
    There is a saying:
    With the first sip of the glas of Science one becomes an Atheist. But when you have drunken the whole glas at the bottom of the Glas you will find god

  20. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to uzn For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), silvanelf (14th July 2019), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  21. Link to Post #11
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    26th December 2014
    Age
    53
    Posts
    293
    Thanks
    1,094
    Thanked 1,770 times in 275 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Foxie Loxie (here)
    Here I am going to quote from a scientist who chose to withdraw from The System & went into hiding. I quote from The Blue Planet Project.

    " ... "

    I am no longer in possession of this book, but I do remember I had quite a time trying to buy it after I heard it mentioned on the History Channel!
    If I have this right, the bulk of it may be here:
    The author is cited as 'O.H. Krill', but it was actually co-written by John Lear and John Grace ('Valdemar Valerian'). It was Grace (as Valerian) who complied the 'Matrix' series of books:
    That's not to say that any of this is incorrect... Lear and Grace knew a lot of stuff.

    Re Intelligent Design, I'm pretty convinced that this was indeed the driving force behind the extraordinary biosphere we have on Planet Earth. But it's far more like someone's giant science project (maybe ourselves included). For the 'Intelligent Creator', we may have to look no further than a race (or maybe a number of races) of extremely advanced ET scientists.
    It makes a lot of sense to me that we are some advanced ETs' giant science experiment. This would explain the seeming indifference to what's happening down here in terms of human suffering. If we are simply "ants" or some (perceived as) lower life form, perhaps it is impossible to feel compassion or sympathy for the wars, genocides, murders, rapes, every day suffering etc. that occur here -- and perhaps maybe some of these events are even artificially introduced/induced to test our responses to these traumatic events? And if this is the case, perhaps those higher ET scientists are also someone else's science experiment, and so on and so on....Intelligent design doesn't necessarily mean ethical design....at least from the subjects' perspective.

  22. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to awakeningmom For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (23rd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Ewan (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), sdv (24th February 2017), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  23. Link to Post #12
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Age
    57
    Posts
    1,274
    Thanks
    11,862
    Thanked 7,741 times in 1,233 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    For the 'Intelligent Creator', we may have to look no further than a race (or maybe a number of races) of extremely advanced ET scientists.
    But were the extremely advanced ET scientists designed or did they happen by chance?


    BTW: If you've read Journey of Souls or any of those books by Michael Newton there are several mentions of souls playing/studying with energy and designing things/life forms. Kind of suggests we created ourselves, or collectively at least we created everything and ergo, collectively, we are the ONE.
    Last edited by Ewan; 22nd February 2017 at 19:49.

  24. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    awakeningmom (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), kirolak (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), Star Mariner (23rd February 2017), starlight (23rd February 2017), uzn (22nd February 2017)

  25. Link to Post #13
    Avalon Member uzn's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2015
    Location
    Earth for now
    Posts
    1,391
    Thanks
    4,344
    Thanked 10,471 times in 1,357 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    No Way, some of you are saying we all brought this into being. I for one distance myself totally from having anything to do with creating Mosquitos and Ticks.

  26. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to uzn For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), enigma3 (22nd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), silvanelf (14th July 2019), Star Mariner (23rd February 2017), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  27. Link to Post #14
    Avalon Member Satori's Avatar
    Join Date
    26th May 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    Age
    69
    Posts
    1,177
    Thanks
    4,771
    Thanked 7,618 times in 1,145 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    All very good and thoughtful points of view. How many angels do dance on the head of a needle? I long ago concluded, rightly or wrongly (and we'll never know), that on this topic above all others, we are all dancing and prancing around in the realm of the unknown and the unknowable. And I am OK with that.

  28. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Satori For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd February 2017), Peter UK (27th July 2019), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  29. Link to Post #15
    United States Avalon Member Foxie Loxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    20th September 2015
    Location
    Central NY
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,079
    Thanks
    67,683
    Thanked 17,357 times in 2,953 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Well, Starlight, you certainly started an interesting discussion! And Bill, I really appreciate the info you shared. I just LOVE this all being "someone else's big science project"! I think that puts it all in perspective!

  30. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Foxie Loxie For This Post:

    Ashy67 (22nd February 2017), eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (23rd February 2017)

  31. Link to Post #16
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    61
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    15,567
    Thanked 21,361 times in 3,404 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Intelligent design is a phrase containing two words connected together to modify each other. The first word, intelligent, denotes intent. Only a sentient self-reflecting consciousness can have intent. The design part infers action. Only an intelligence capable of affecting change can design, or "have designs". Intelligent design = intelligent creator depends on what "design" one is talking about.

    Does the apparent intelligent design of the creatures on planet earth automatically prove the existence of an intelligent creator, yes.

    Does that intelligent creator necessarily have to be the Great Spirit god of all the universes? - no

    If there are little creator gods with local jurisdiction does that prove the existence of a Supreme Creator god? yes! imo

  32. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (24th February 2017), NancyV (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), Star Mariner (27th February 2017), starlight (7th March 2017)

  33. Link to Post #17
    Avalon Member gord's Avatar
    Join Date
    13th October 2015
    Language
    English
    Age
    57
    Posts
    180
    Thanks
    2,367
    Thanked 809 times in 169 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    To me, this is evidence of intelligent design.
    Name:  euler-identity.png
Views: 599
Size:  7.3 KB
    Leonhard Euler discovered it. Who created it?

  34. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to gord For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (24th February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), starlight (7th March 2017), uzn (23rd February 2017)

  35. Link to Post #18
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,796
    Thanks
    77,253
    Thanked 273,979 times in 20,271 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Quote Posted by gord (here)
    To me, this is evidence of intelligent design.



    Leonhard Euler discovered it. Who created it?
    Thank you!

    A very brilliant man, and one of the greatest ever mathematicians.



    Some quotes and trivia:

    Stanford University mathematics professor Keith Devlin said, "like a Shakespearean sonnet that captures the very essence of love, or a painting that brings out the beauty of the human form that is far more than just skin deep, Euler's equation reaches down into the very depths of existence".

    Paul Nahin, a professor emeritus at the University of New Hampshire, describes Euler's identity as being "of exquisite beauty".

    Benjamin Peirce, a noted American 19th-century philosopher, mathematician, and professor at Harvard University, after proving Euler's identity during a lecture, stated that the identity "is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth".

    A poll of readers conducted by The Mathematical Intelligencer in 1990 named Euler's identity as the "most beautiful theorem in mathematics".

    In another poll of readers that was conducted by Physics World in 2004, Euler's identity tied with Maxwell's equations as the "greatest equation ever".

    A study of the brains of sixteen mathematicians found that the "emotional brain" (specifically, the medial orbitofrontal cortex, which lights up for beautiful music, poetry, pictures, etc.) lit up more consistently for Euler's identity than for any other formula.

  36. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (24th February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), silvanelf (14th July 2019), starlight (28th February 2017), uzn (23rd February 2017)

  37. Link to Post #19
    United States Avalon Member Sammy's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th December 2011
    Location
    a lovely park bench
    Age
    62
    Posts
    5,291
    Thanks
    30,410
    Thanked 26,837 times in 4,931 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    from time to time I bring this one back... - justoneopinion

    “I (as us all) am (are)
    simply the ‘All that Is’
    that found a way to trick Itself
    that It wasn't Itself
    and simultaneously
    hid Itself within Itself
    such that It might (re)discover Itself
    alive and individuated
    within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

    justonequestion -

    How intelligent I was (we were) in doing this is...

    debatable.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

  38. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Sammy For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Foxie Loxie (24th February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (7th March 2017), uzn (23rd February 2017)

  39. Link to Post #20
    Netherlands Avalon Member Observer1964's Avatar
    Join Date
    14th December 2010
    Location
    somewhere in holland
    Posts
    511
    Thanks
    466
    Thanked 2,049 times in 456 posts

    Default Re: Does Intelligent Design = Intelligent Creator?

    Examine all things and retain the good.

  40. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Observer1964 For This Post:

    eaglespirit (23rd February 2017), Karma Ninja (2nd March 2017), peterpam (21st July 2019), starlight (28th February 2017), uzn (23rd February 2017)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts