'Doorway to the underworld' crater in remote Siberia tells story of ancient climates

[chancy]

Hello Everyone:
This article gives an insight into the past climate when the planet was warmer than it is today.
Scientist are able to piece together a great story of our climate from the Batagaika crater in eastern Siberia. On the link there are excellent pictures and a video. I don't know how to get them into my post.
This will get the climate change folks really P.O'd
chancy

Link:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/doorway-und...ous&yptr=yahoo

Article:
Doorway to the underworld crater in remote Siberia tells story of ancient climates

Team hopes ancient sediments revealed by expanding craters can teach us about what region's ecosystem looked like.
By Léa Surugue
March 11, 2017 07:00 GMT

Gateway to the underworld' crater in Siberia continues to grow

It has sometimes been nicknamed "doorway to the underworld" and locals tend to stay away from it, but the Batagaika crater, located in the Yana river basin in eastern Siberia, fascinates scientists from around the world.

Craters like this one are known by geologists as 'slumps', with the largest (more than 5 hectares in area) referred to as 'megaslumps'. The Batagaika crater is the largest of them all, exceeding 50 hectares in area. It is also 86m deep.

Slumps and megaslumps are scattered across Siberia, Alaska and Canada. As the climate continues to warm the thawing of permafrost in these regions accelerates, making them grow bigger and bigger.

Russian and German scientists are currently monitoring Batagaika to see how fast it is expanding, but another team, led by Julian Murton from the University of Sussex, has taken a different approach in its study of the site.

The researchers are looking at what the megaslump can tell us about the history of ancient climates and what Siberia looked like thousands of years ago. Their findings from a first reconnaissance study were published in February.
When and why did the Batagaika crater form?

The crater began in the 1960s when locals cut down some trees in the area. Because trees shade the soil from the summer heat, this had the effect of increasing the amount of heat entering the soil. Trees also transpire, which has the effect of cooling the soil, so when their number was reduced, this had an impact on the soil's temperature. The permafrost started thawing from the top down.

There was a gully that extended down a slope, it started deepening soon after the trees were cut down and the permafrost started to melt, leading to the creation of the megaslump.
Siberia crater
The crater is likely to keep expanding in coming years.Courtesy of Julian Murton

Murton told IBTimes UK: "The formation of the megaslump was triggered by human disturbance but it's symptomatic of climate warming – where the climate warms you get more permafrost thawing. This occurred at the end of the last Ice age and previous Ice Ages".
What are the consequences of the crater's expansion?

Monitoring of the megaslump only started a few years back. In the last two decades, there hadn't really been any kind of surveillance system in place, even though satellite images clearly show that since the 1960s, it has expanded dramatically. However, scientists haven't yet been able to calculate at what rate it is expanding.

As it gets wider, the landscape collapses by about 50 or 60 metres and the original forest disappears. New, highly gullied terrains have developed at the bottom of the slump.

These terrains are what geologists call "bad land". In the south west of the USA you have examples of these very triangular, irregular slopes developed by rapid water erosion. It is thought these bad lands will develop extensively at the bottom of the megaslump.

So as the megaslump expands, the original fairly smooth forested hills disappear to be replaced by this gullied, irregular topography.
What kind of sediments have been exposed by the expanding crater?

Murton explains that the goal of his team's work at the crater is to look the region's geological history and to reconstruct it by sampling frozen permafrost.
crater
Wood-rich layers suggest the development of forests 200,000 years ago.Courtesy of Julian Murton

About five layers of sediment have been exposed by the expanding megaslump. They are comprised of ice and a lot of frozen sand. There were also a couple of wood-rich layers that represent former forests.

"Our work so far has just been reconnaissance. We identified what the layers are and did a bit of reconnaissance sampling to radiocarbon date organic material, things like roots and wood in the sequences, to give us some indication of their age", Murton explained.
What can the crater tell us about past climates?

These layers can take them back to 125,000 years ago in their study of past climate – this is the last period in geological time when the climate in the Arctic was substantially warmer than it is now, by a few degrees.

"We may even be able to go back to 200,000 years, but there is still a bit of uncertainty in the dating, we need to do more work at the site. One hypothesis is that the lower wood layer represents an ancient forest that developed about 200,000 years ago", Murton added.

The scientists also looked some of the sand grains to understand what processes deposited them – finding evidence for past windy climates, with a lot of wind having blown and deposited the sand around.
crater
The slump as seen from the sky.Courtesy of Julian Murton

If they get sufficient funding, they want to do some drilling to get a continuous sequence, a core of frozen permafrost extending throughout the deposit. They would then like to do high-resolution analysis of the sediment to develop a clearer picture of what climates looked like over the last 125,000 to 200,000 years.
How can this work help us to understand future climate change?

The climate is warming particularly rapidly in the Arctic. The scientists want to reconstruct past climates and environments, for example from 125,000 years ago, to understand what the region looked like when it was warmer than it is now – as it will potentially be in the future.

"If you know what the ecology was, what the plants and animals were in this part of the Arctic, this can give us some indication of what it may be in the future as climate continues to warm or what some of the vegetation responses we may see in the landscape," Murton concluded

[Hervé]

What sticks out of the feature, to me, is that a fault line goes right through the middle of it... so, rather than claiming "Climate Change," I would claim "Earth Change" ... because, if it were "Climate Change," there is no reason preventing the entire landscape from turning into mush.

The tadpole-shaped crater, called the Batagaika crater, is known as a "megaslump" and is related to karsting triggered through permafrost melting.

The Siberian Doom Crack is technically known as a “thermokarst,” named after a similar but unrelated erosional formation you find in limestone. These structures form when permafrost – the layer of top soil exposed to long-term subzero temperatures – begins to thaw out unevenly. This leaves depressions in the landscape that, when experiencing refreezing and rethawing, become deeper and wider.

Thermokarsts in Canada's Hudson Bay, pictured back in 2008. Steve Jurvetson/Wikimedia Commons; CC BY 2.0

The crater began to form in the 1960s as a result of deforestation which eliminated tree shade on the ground during the warmer summer months.

... and there you have it: the real explanation: deforestation!

That deforestation also started rain/snowwater run offs into the fault zone thawing the permafrost into its vicinity and it's now unzipping all the way along the fault line...

[Fellow Aspirant]

So, a couple of questions come up that make me doubt "deforestation" is the cause of climbing arctic temperatures:

1. the Siberian 'crack of doom' is located in a heavily forested area, so how does this fit your hypothesis?

2. the thermokarsts pictured in the Hudson's Bay pic also show a lot of green, but no discernable trees - and this is not land that has ever been logged over - so what type of 'deforestation' might be in play, if there were never any trees?

To claim that 'deforestation' is the cause of global warming makes no sense.

What am I missing here?

B.

[Hervé]

Posted by Fellow Aspirant (here)
[...]
What am I missing here?

B.

The plot

The explanation given for the Batagaika crater is the generic "Climate Change"/"Global Warming," yet, in those same articles, the real explanation as to how that particular "crater" developed is given as the deforestation of the area in the 60s (current pictures shows a new forest growth).

The "Thermokarsts" from the Hudson bay are there to give an example of a whole area turning to mush in an actual case of weather generation.

Yet, the knuckleheads writing the articles about the Batagaika crater can't help but mention ""Global warming" as an example of the brainwashing and/or an acknowledgement as to who is buttering their sliced breads with research grants.

Then, the fault line is entirely missed, yet, water has that inherent tendency to flow along paths of least resistance... i.e. fault zones crushed soils/rocks.

I hope this makes it clearer?

[zen deik]

Huge sink hole....

[Sunny-side-up]

The Secrets of Water, The Documentary of Viktor Schauberger "Comprehend and Copy Nature"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XyOGdjWDVM4

Viktor Schauberger explains in great depth an understanding of tree-soil interaction, far beyond the every day knowledge.

[onawah]

Schauberger's work also explains why the Oroville dam spillway and other like it don't hold up.

[chancy]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by Fellow Aspirant (here)
[...]
What am I missing here?

B.

The plot

The explanation given for the Batagaika crater is the generic "Climate Change"/"Global Warming," yet, in those same articles, the real explanation as to how that particular "crater" developed is given as the deforestation of the area in the 60s (current pictures shows a new forest growth).

The "Thermokarsts" from the Hudson bay are there to give an example of a whole area turning to mush in an actual case of weather generation.

Yet, the knuckleheads writing the articles about the Batagaika crater can't help but mention ""Global warming" as an example of the brainwashing and/or an acknowledgement as to who is buttering their sliced breads with research grants.

Then, the fault line is entirely missed, yet, water has that inherent tendency to flow along paths of least resistance... i.e. fault zones crushed soils/rocks.

I hope this makes it clearer?

Hello Herve:
I am not sure why you are trying to change the topic or trying to say this is all about "The explanation given for the Batagaika crater is the generic "Climate Change"/"Global Warming," yet, in those same"

This is NOT why I posted this article to talk about generic climate change/global warming.
I posted the article to show that there are scientist in the world that are actually trying to see what the climate was like 125000 years ago or possibly 200000 years ago due to the layers of the crater/sink hole.
The climate at 125000 years ago was warmer than now by they said by a few degrees.
This is article is NOT TRYING to say that climate change/global warming is generic. It's trying to say there is an explanation to temperature changes on our planet and the scientist want to learn why?
It appears that you are trying to circumvent this article for some other agenda. Maybe it's time just to take the article at face value that some scientists are really getting results about a hotter climate over 100000 thousand years ago than today.

"These layers can take them back to 125,000 years ago in their study of past climate – this is the last period in geological time when the climate in the Arctic was substantially warmer than it is now, by a few degrees.

"We may even be able to go back to 200,000 years, but there is still a bit of uncertainty in the dating, we need to do more work at the site. One hypothesis is that the lower wood layer represents an ancient forest that developed about 200,000 years ago", Murton added."

PS no one gives a rats*** about the hudsons bay muskegg. ( I live close enough to drive there) It is NOT the same as what is going on in this article.
You know that so I am not sure why you are trying to give a completely ridiculous slant on this article?
There is NO AGENDA for or against climate change/global warming here just a scientific article regarding scientist doing their job.
chancy

[Sunny-side-up]

Just adding here:
Temperature change findings of 125,000 and or 200,000 years ago do not mean the same thing happening now (which is what many would try to pin it on).

This Earth has gone through many temp changes in it's life, not all temp changes can be attributed to one reason. But it is good to find all the reasons if possible ha!

[Hervé]

Posted by chancy (here)
[...]
I am not sure why you are trying to change the topic or trying to say this is all about "The explanation given for the Batagaika crater is the generic "Climate Change"/"Global Warming," yet, in those same"
[...]

Well, chancy, that is because said article is selling the reader a double or triple decker sandwich to consume:

Slumps and megaslumps are scattered across Siberia, Alaska and Canada. As the climate continues to warm the thawing of permafrost in these regions accelerates, making them grow bigger and bigger.

Murton told IBTimes UK: "The formation of the megaslump was triggered by human disturbance but it's symptomatic of climate warming – where the climate warms you get more permafrost thawing. This occurred at the end of the last Ice age and previous Ice Ages".

How can this work help us to understand future climate change?

The climate is warming particularly rapidly in the Arctic...

... indication of what it may be in the future as climate continues to warm...

... and that's called disinformation... which seems to have achieved its aim as exemplified by the questions asked:

So, a couple of questions come up that make me doubt "deforestation" is the cause of climbing arctic temperatures:...
[...]
To claim that 'deforestation' is the cause of global warming makes no sense.

As for the intended topic for this thread, I couldn't understand it from this claim:

This will get the climate change folks really P.O'd

... since "Climate Change" and "Global Warming" is advertised all throughout the article.

We already know that the earth was considerably warmer in the past and ice ages have come and gone; it all has been copiously documented. No one was prevented from drilling the permafrost to extract cores and study them... but there's no $$ to do it, hence the value of this spectacular example of human generated thawing of a double/mirrored/symmetrical mega-slump along a fault line in the generation of interest and research grants $$. However, because any researcher knows which side of their slice of bread gets buttered; "Global Warming" and "Climate Change" is favorably peppered throughout.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by chancy (here)
[...]
I am not sure why you are trying to change the topic or trying to say this is all about "The explanation given for the Batagaika crater is the generic "Climate Change"/"Global Warming," yet, in those same"
[...]

Well, chancy, that is because said article is selling the reader a double or triple decker sandwich to consume:

Slumps and megaslumps are scattered across Siberia, Alaska and Canada. As the climate continues to warm the thawing of permafrost in these regions accelerates, making them grow bigger and bigger.

Murton told IBTimes UK: "The formation of the megaslump was triggered by human disturbance but it's symptomatic of climate warming – where the climate warms you get more permafrost thawing. This occurred at the end of the last Ice age and previous Ice Ages".

How can this work help us to understand future climate change?

The climate is warming particularly rapidly in the Arctic...

... indication of what it may be in the future as climate continues to warm...

... and that's called disinformation... which seems to have achieved its aim as exemplified by the questions asked:

So, a couple of questions come up that make me doubt "deforestation" is the cause of climbing arctic temperatures:...
[...]
To claim that 'deforestation' is the cause of global warming makes no sense.

As for the intended topic for this thread, I couldn't understand it from this claim:

This will get the climate change folks really P.O'd

... since "Climate Change" and "Global Warming" is advertised all throughout the article.

We already know that the earth was considerably warmer in the past and ice ages have come and gone; it all has been copiously documented. No one was prevented from drilling the permafrost to extract cores and study them... but there's no $$ to do it, hence the value of this spectacular example of human generated thawing of a double/mirrored/symmetrical mega-slump along a fault line in the generation of interest and research grants $$. However, because any researcher knows which side of their slice of bread gets buttered; "Global Warming" and "Climate Change" is favorably peppered throughout.

So you can admit that climate changes over time and that earth has had many great warming and cooling cycles, but it's impossible for you to believe that climate is changing now? Just because someone has found ways to tax the weather, and create scams around climate change does not indicate that climate change is not occurring. In fact I'll be bolden enough to say that over longer periods of time climate is always changing. I live right next to the Canadian Rockies, and I can see the climate change effects on the glaciers and snow packs with my own eyeballs in just the last several years. We may well still be coming out of the last ice age compared to what might be deemed "normal" climate on planet earth.

looks like you're pretty pissed about those research grants ... with all those bread and butter comments across all these threads today,

[Hervé]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]

So you can admit that climate changes over time and that earth has had many great warming and cooling cycles, but it's impossible for you to believe that climate is changing now? [...]

DeDukshyn: king of inventing imagined words coming out of others' keyboards

So, let me repeat myself:

Posted by Hervé (here)
Let's keep it simple here:

There is something happening to local weather which in turn is an indication of something happening with earth's climate.

The thing is this: robber barons - following JP Morgan's obsession of putting meters onto everything - couldn't tax gods nor volcanoes, comets and asteroids for spewing ashes or sowing orbiting dust all around.

So, AL Gore and followers, applying Rahm Emanuel's formula to a T:

You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And, what I mean by that, it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
- Rahm Emanuel

Decided to find a way to pin it onto humans/us and their/our activities to squeeze a few more $$ out of them/us and prevent any competition to develop in "Third World" countries (Rockefeller's moto).

Since then, that gigantic lie has been hammered on us, daily, in an attempt to convince everyone that square pegs do actually fit in round holes.

[chancy]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]

So you can admit that climate changes over time and that earth has had many great warming and cooling cycles, but it's impossible for you to believe that climate is changing now? [...]

DeDukshyn: king of inventing imagined words coming out of others' keyboards

So, let me repeat myself:

Posted by Hervé (here)
Let's keep it simple here:

There is something happening to local weather which in turn is an indication of something happening with earth's climate.

The thing is this: robber barons - following JP Morgan's obsession of putting meters onto everything - couldn't tax gods nor volcanoes, comets and asteroids for spewing ashes or sowing orbiting dust all around.

So, AL Gore and followers, applying Rahm Emanuel's formula to a T:

You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And, what I mean by that, it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
- Rahm Emanuel

Decided to find a way to pin it onto humans/us and their/our activities to squeeze a few more $$ out of them/us and prevent any competition to develop in "Third World" countries (Rockefeller's moto).

Since then, that gigantic lie has been hammered on us, daily, in an attempt to convince everyone that square pegs do actually fit in round holes.

Hello Herve: I must admit that I am shocked because since I joined in 2010 no one has gone off the rail on one article as you about this article! No one is wanting you to conform or believe or just read the article for what it's worth.
Instead we are getting a lecture about climate change/global warming. No one said the climate is not changing all the time. All you have to do is look up into the sky and see that great big ball of fire known as the sun. This is what changes the climate globally.
I think this article has brought out some very interesting ideas but I posted the article because they can test the layers in the ground without having to drill core samples. That in itself is interesting.
As far as muskeg it's being drilled all the time. In fact some years there has been around 15,000 wells drilled in Alberta alone in the muskeg. I am not sure if any scientists are using those drilling samples but I have worked the rigs and we took samples every 15 - 20 minutes all the way down to as far as 5 miles. So someone has the data? I know because I spent days and days collecting them.

But back to the article why not just enjoy someone elses take on trying to find out how the truth. If you follow Piers Corbyn we are getting colder not warmer. What's wrong with getting more data from whoever is willing to get it?
At least these scientists aren't burying it and fudging the numbers....
chancy

[Hervé]

Posted by chancy (here)
[...]
But back to the article why not just enjoy someone elses take on trying to find out how the truth. If you follow Piers Corbyn we are getting colder not warmer. What's wrong with getting more data from whoever is willing to get it?
At least these scientists aren't burying it and fudging the numbers....
chancy

Agreed on that deck of the sandwich, chancy

[Karma Ninja]

I have no idea what happened to the discussion on this thread.

It was like two people talking about different things but using similar words such that the effect was a vortex of confusion that spilled over into misplaced animosity and condescension. If that ain't a mouthful than a full bag of marbles sure is!

[zen deik]

Never met a groundhog that believed in global warming...

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]

So you can admit that climate changes over time and that earth has had many great warming and cooling cycles, but it's impossible for you to believe that climate is changing now? [...]

DeDukshyn: king of inventing imagined words coming out of others' keyboards

So, let me repeat myself:

Posted by Hervé (here)
Let's keep it simple here:

There is something happening to local weather which in turn is an indication of something happening with earth's climate.

The thing is this: robber barons - following JP Morgan's obsession of putting meters onto everything - couldn't tax gods nor volcanoes, comets and asteroids for spewing ashes or sowing orbiting dust all around.

So, AL Gore and followers, applying Rahm Emanuel's formula to a T:

You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And, what I mean by that, it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
- Rahm Emanuel

Decided to find a way to pin it onto humans/us and their/our activities to squeeze a few more $$ out of them/us and prevent any competition to develop in "Third World" countries (Rockefeller's moto).

Since then, that gigantic lie has been hammered on us, daily, in an attempt to convince everyone that square pegs do actually fit in round holes.

Well, you just come across a little over bearing on the topic - hence your tone bordered on "ignoring all aspects of any story to only focus on the GW scam conclusions that could be had" - what you see as "imagined words" is a perhaps a misunderstanding due to the former. Don't get me wrong I love your passion for this. I also agree that there are indeed many people trying their best to take advantage of the situation - that is one important aspect for certain. I agree with you completely there.

Another important aspect I see is that over emphasis on rebuking the global warming scammers and their plans is an unexpected side effect. This side effect lumps all global human created pollution in with the "carbon" emmissions. After all this is the only type of pollution that ever gets any talk at all - therefore it must be the only aspect worth talking about .. as some might want us to believe - for certain. While we are constantly debating climate change, the real offenders go unnoticed - a "watch the right hand" trick if you will at worst, a distraction and an excuse for the masses to not care about our planet earth at the best. The Earth IS being continuously poisoned by humans in a plethora of ways (while being ignored) while we continuously replace that dialogue with a stupid "global warming" debate that nets us little if we win. This is not really what we want from winning the global warming debate, but it may be all we actually get out of it (besides maybe some bragging rights if that is important) unless we prioritize our attention to the actual issue.

I can see all the polluting industrialist elite having a good chuckle about how well the divide and conquer strategies work as well on the global warming debate as they do in western politics. There are no winners. They only want us to focus on this carbon aspect - what better way than to do that with that which we have seen over the last 10 years in this arena? It might be wise to gently turn our attention away from the carbon issue and start asking hard questions on the real poisons affecting out planet.

[Sunny-side-up]

Hi chancy
I acknowledge your OP's subject matter, interesting post

Article:
Doorway to the underworld crater in remote Siberia tells story of ancient climates

I'm sure they are finding a great deal of info.
A dangerous place to be on the ground investigating I should think 0.o

As to the side rail subject that has taken grip of your OP, I.E 'Climate change' well as I understand things the whole solar system is heating up, so not just a yes or no or local thing

[Hervé]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]
Well, you just come across a little over bearing on the topic - hence your tone bordered on "ignoring all aspects of any story to only focus on the GW scam conclusions that could be had" - what you see as "imagined words" is a perhaps a misunderstanding due to the former. [...]

What I outlined in my first post on this thread was a feature that sticks out of the landscape like a sore thumb and that none of the so-called "geologists" studying that megaslump seem to have noticed or, if they did, bothered to mention: a fault line!

Posted by Hervé (here)
What sticks out of the feature, to me, is that a fault line goes right through the middle of it... so, rather than claiming "Climate Change," I would claim "Earth Change" ... because, if it were "Climate Change," there is no reason preventing the entire landscape from turning into mush.

How come anyone posting on this thread missed that or surgically avoided to mention it to only focus on something else in that post?

Anyway, I am done with this. Ciao.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Hervé (here)

How come anyone posting on this thread missed that or surgically avoided to mention it to only focus on something else in that post?

Anyway, I am done with this. Ciao.

You already made a big production out of that point, hence what my comments were about. The conversation is allowed to continue, even if we don't only talk about your fault line theory.