Intravenous Vitamin C Cancer Therapy: quite effective

[suwesi]

Hi,

Posted by conk (here)
Ascorbic acid is not vitamin C. Ascorbic acid is the antioxidant that protects the complete C vitamin. Vitamin C is made up of a variety of elements, ...

Ascorbic acid = L-ascorbic acid = Vitamin C (the one and only)
www.vitamincfoundation.org/basics.php

If you take a fruit or a vegetable you have vitamin c + phytochemicals + bioflavonoids + carbs + ..... To use the ascorbic acid the body has to extract it, which takes time and is work for the digestive systems. So in case of a sickness it is easier to take pure ascorbic acid (or buffered, liposomal, IV...) - so the body can use it right away to heal itself.

To stay healthy it of course makes sense to eat the whole fruit/vegetable because we also need phytochemicals and bioflavonoids and ...

Greetings suwesi

[conk]

Posted by suwesi (here)
Hi,

Posted by conk (here)
Ascorbic acid is not vitamin C. Ascorbic acid is the antioxidant that protects the complete C vitamin. Vitamin C is made up of a variety of elements, ...

Ascorbic acid = L-ascorbic acid = Vitamin C (the one and only)
www.vitamincfoundation.org/basics.php

If you take a fruit or a vegetable you have vitamin c + phytochemicals + bioflavonoids + carbs + ..... To use the ascorbic acid the body has to extract it, which takes time and is work for the digestive systems. So in case of a sickness it is easier to take pure ascorbic acid (or buffered, liposomal, IV...) - so the body can use it right away to heal itself.

To stay healthy it of course makes sense to eat the whole fruit/vegetable because we also need phytochemicals and bioflavonoids and ...

Greetings suwesi

Take corn syrup, add hydrochloric acid, and bingo! You've made ascorbic acid. It is expensive to isolate natural ascorbic acid from the real C complex. That's why the great majority of ascorbic acid is synthetic.

So you are getting cheated if you buy ascorbic acid thinking it is Vitamin C. But that might be the least of the consequences you may suffer. Studies over the last several years have demonstrated that people who take high doses of ascorbic acid actually put themselves at risk for a number of health challenges. One study demonstrated that doses of 500 mg a day or more of ascorbic acid increase the incidence of arterial plaque buildup. Another study indicated that gallstones are more likely to appear in those taking ascorbic acid. Are these backlash studies against the health food industry? No, they are legitimate studies.

Wait a minute, you may be thinking. What about all the studies done by Linus Pauling and a multitude of other reputable researchers who have proven the health promoting benefits of Vitamin C and ascorbic acid? Let us put a little perspective on the subject.

Back in the 1930’s ascorbic acid was isolated out of little red peppers. The man who first performed this experiment was Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi who won a Nobel Prize for his work. What he also found, which has mostly been ignored until recently, was that ascorbic acid was far more biologically available and active while it was still in the red pepper.

Scientist of the era of “Better Living Through Chemistry and Science” (which we have been experiencing for the last fifty years) decided to take the discoveries about Vitamin C and “improve” on Mother Nature. First they found that extracting ascorbic acid from natural foods, such as the red peppers, cabbage, cranberries, gooseberries, or acerola berries, is relatively expensive. Ascorbic acid can be created in the laboratory much less expensively (and of course much more profitably). Scientists discovered that they could take corn syrup, mix it with hydrochloric acid, and voila: ascorbic acid! (By the way, the corn is more likely than ever to be genetically modified and of course not organically grown.) Years later, scientists discovered what Dr. Szent-Györgyi had discovered about ascorbic acid, it is not as effective when detached from the whole food matrix! So they went about trying to determine what other factors there could be in the whole food that would make the ascorbic acid work better. First, they discovered the importance of bioflavonoids, so they figured out how to produce these synthetically in the laboratory, to be added to the ascorbic acid. Then they found that ascorbic acid worked better as a mineral ascorbate and they worked on that! Then they found that fat soluble ascorbic acid was superior, because it went directly to the liver vs. water soluble ascorbic acid. In fact if you put 100 mg of ascorbic acid in the body, within a few hours at least 90% of it would be excreted in the urine. If you put 10 times more into the body to account for a 90% loss it would cause diarrhea. So they experimented with various things and concluded that if you attach the ascorbic acid molecule to another molecule, in one case a metabolite, the ascorbic acid will stay in the body longer (they didn’t seem to care why it stayed in the body longer, but it stayed in the body longer and hopefully that was a good thing). Today there is a broad variety of ascorbic acid products with various things attached to them. With all this research, time, thought and dollars being put into creating a synthetic vitamin C, the fact remains that none of them can come even close to the potentials of what Mother Nature makes. One important factor that science has not been able to duplicate is the special kind of energy that holds living food together. Whether this energy is found in the enzymes or in the energy patterns of whole food structures, it is unlikely that science will ever be able to reproduce it in a laboratory. This may be one of several reasons why studies have shown that the body will absorb close to 100% of the vitamin C that is consumed as part of a whole food, whereas barely 10% of the “stripped down” ascorbic acid is absorbed.

From Radiant Health.

[suwesi]

Posted by conk (here)
Take corn syrup, add hydrochloric acid, and bingo! You've made ascorbic acid. It is expensive to isolate natural ascorbic acid from the real C complex. That's why the great majority of ascorbic acid is synthetic.

So you are getting cheated if you buy ascorbic acid thinking it is Vitamin C.

"The old name for scurvy was scorbutes; so vitamin C, once identified, was quickly christened a-scorbutic acid; or ascorbic acid. Ignore the deluded ninnies that think ascorbic acid is something evil and not real vitamin C! It's as daft as saying H2O isn't water! And before you write to tell me: ascorbic acid is the name for both natural and synthetic vitamin C and BOTH work just fine, because they are identical." - Dr. Keith Scott-Mumby
(http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/basics.php)

If you want to look at it closer - there is a GMO and a NON-GMO way of producing it. The cheaper one is the GMO.
If you want to get the NON-GMO, look for "china-free".

Me and my family have been using the GMO based for 10+ years (simply because it is much cheaper. I have it regularly tested by muscle test. And as long as it tests fine, I will stick with it).

Posted by conk (here)
But that might be the least of the consequences you may suffer. Studies over the last several years have demonstrated that people who take high doses of ascorbic acid actually put themselves at risk for a number of health challenges. One study demonstrated that doses of 500 mg a day or more of ascorbic acid increase the incidence of arterial plaque buildup. Another study indicated that gallstones are more likely to appear in those taking ascorbic acid. Are these backlash studies against the health food industry? No, they are legitimate studies.

What studies are you talking about? Please specify. There are somewhere around 100.000 research papers out (the Vitamin C research started in the 60ies), so it is hard to find the one you are talking about without specifying it.

If you are referring to wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#cite_note-19 stating: "However, a second analysis found an inverse relationship between circulating vitamin C levels or dietary vitamin C and the risk of stroke" (Chen GC, Lu DB, Pang Z, Liu QF (2013))
English is not my native language, but what I take out of it: Circulating Vitamin C levels (and they do not distinguish between natural or synthetic) in people with the risk of stroke is higher.
So what?

It does not say anything about their vitamin C levels in the cells (intracellular). It does not say anything about their vitamin C intake. And it shows what everybody who is looking at the whole picture knows all along: the body tries everything to stay alive by mobilizing all it has (and in this case probably just counteracting the stroke risk by mobilizing all the reserves it has.)

What the sentence definitely does not say: that the risk of getting a heart attack is higher because your C intake is high (there is just not enough information in that sentence to get that answer).

In the next sentence they are talking about the “500mg meta-study” – but I do not see they are saying it is harmful and I do not see if they only talk about synthetic Vitamin C:
"A meta-analysis of 44 clinical trials has shown a significant positive effect of vitamin C on endothelial function when taken at doses greater than 500 mg per day" (Atherosclerosis Volume 235, Issue 1, Pages 9–20, July 2014. Published April 16, 2014. Accessed June 25, 2014.)
Usually in those studies they just hand out questionnaires and ask for an example day of your life (what have you eaten, what supplements have you taken). And then they add it together.

For example someone living on diet with lots of raw food will have 3.000mg+ Vitamin C a day. So how could the body say 500mg are too much?

If you referred to other studies, please specify. Thank you.

Posted by conk (here)
This may be one of several reasons why studies have shown that the body will absorb close to 100% of the vitamin C that is consumed as part of a whole food, whereas barely 10% of the “stripped down” ascorbic acid is absorbed.

Again: what studies are you referring to/where does the information come from?
How much is (orally) absorbed depends on the amount taken at once (+ how inflamed your intestines are..):
180 mg --> 80-90%
1,5g (1.500 mg) --> 50%
12g (12.500mg) --> 16%
(according to Hickey, Steve/Roberts Hillary, Ascorbate – The Science of Vitamin C, 2004 (ISBN: 1-4116-0724-4))

So if you are saying 50mg “natural” Vitamin C are absorbed a 100% whereas 15.000mg of synthetic vitamin C are only absorbed 10% - you are right. (but still – in the first case your body got 50mg, in the second case it got 1.500 mg).
So better take many small doses over the day than just a few high doses. (Vitamin C has a half time of 30 Minutes, so you should take it at least 4 times a day to be supported at all times throughout the day). It is as simple as that.

I have not found information saying that “natural” vitamin c (whatever you mean by that) is absorbed better than synthetic vitamin C. I am not even sure, if it has been researched?
Again: administering it iV or taking orally liposomal Vitamin C brings you to an absorption rate of 80%+ even with very high doses.

Conk, I am not trying to talk you out of C out of whole food. The more the better
BUT - in case of a acute sickness you simply cannot get enough naturaly. Therapeutic levels go up to 200g a day, which means 3.700 kg lemons a day. Even chronic conditions ask for really high levels. So even on my personal maintainence level (around 20g/day) I would still need 370 kg lemons.

Greetings Suwesi

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by conk (here)
One study demonstrated that doses of 500 mg a day or more of ascorbic acid increase the incidence of arterial plaque buildup.

I guess I died a while back then. I started taking perhaps 1000 or 2000 mg per day several decades ago, and have averaged perhaps 3000 to 10000 mg (I prefer to say 3 to 10 gm) per day, for the last decade.

[conk]

Posted by suwesi (here)
Greetings Suwesi

I surrender! I'm a big fan of Dr. Scott-Mumby and trust his judgment. I won't give up whole C, but will now trust ascorbic acid as a good choice too. Thanks!

[suwesi]

Posted by conk (here)
I'm a big fan of Dr. Scott-Mumby and trust his judgment. I won't give up whole C, but will now trust ascorbic acid as a good choice too. Thanks!

I had to get very very sick to be ready to even think of starting something "synthetical" (who on earth needs vitamins in pills? It's all in the food... )
So great you are open to it even you do not need it right now!

A great video by Dr. Suzanne Humphries on Vitamin C (not about cancer, but generally a good overview over the science behind it and how to use it in everyday life and in case of a sickness):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0LLX0sgwAU

Greetings
Suwesi

[Olam]

Liposomal is the way to go!
Vitamin C is more like a complex than just one item, ascorbic acid is but one element of full vitamin C.
Liposomal is complete and more like what you get in IV vitamin C.

[suwesi]

Hi Olam,
You are right, liposomal is much better absorbed then pure ascorbic acid.
But it is not "more complete" than ascorbic acid.
Ascorbic acid is pure vitamin c!

Liposomal Vitamin C is made of ascorbic acid + lecithin (+ sometimes buffered) + up to 20% alcohol. So you really have to read the ingrediens (if the lecithin is non-gmo etc.).
Best way: do it yourself (it will not be as encapsulated as the one you get to buy, but you know what's in it - and it is so much cheaper)!
And you can make your own recipes - and put in whatever vitamin is water solulable. :-)

Greetings Suwesi

[Olam]

Well, see this and tell me what you think!

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=DnvnKnu7YBI

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Olam (here)
Well, see this and tell me what you think!

In this video, Dr Berg presents us with a blizzard of misinformation, over simplification and selectively incomplete information ... in my not so humble opinion .

[Olam]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Olam (here)
Well, see this and tell me what you think!

In this video, Dr Berg presents us with a blizzard of misinformation, over simplification and selectively incomplete information ... in my not so humble opinion .

It would be great if you can elaborate on that please, I would love to know whats wrong in this video!

[suwesi]

Hi Olam,
just my 5 cents:

Unfortunately Dr. Berg does not tell where his information comes from.
Just to take his example of this 1 cancer patient returning with a C deficiency after getting 100g iV in Mexico:
* How many days did he get it?
* Was it given "once a day" or always spaced out evenly over the course of the day?
* Was he on an oral C protocol, once he left the clinic?
* What other vitamins was he taking?
* and the most important question: did his health improve/stay the same/deteriorate due to his C intake? What happend to his cancer? (Did he get "spider veins" but in exchange maybe his cancer was gone?)
Soooo many unanswered questions!

(I am thinking about the "rebound effect" – in which case not the high amounts of C are to blame, but the lack of continuing C orally after the iV on a sufficiently high maintainence level).

(I had just this image show up, while I was trying to following his explanation: imagine a very dry place - just soil, almost no vegetation –and then it starts raining for a couple days. This is followed by hundreds of different plants starting to sprout. Following that, no more rain + the sun does not shine any more. All those new little plants start dying. So what causes that? Lack of sunshine? Lack of water (soil drying up again)?. Well, to follow Dr. Bergs line of putting it: the couple days of rain are to blaim – because in this area it usually does not rain at all, so if it had not rained, all those plants would not have tried to sprout and now would not die.)

And yes, from reading a lot and my personal experience with high dose vitamin C I do believe high doses of C can lead to other deficiencies. But all I know, not because Vit C is causing this, but because the immune system starts to do all kinds of "repair work" and therefore needs higher levels of other nutritients/vitamins as well. (e.g.: to fight off a virus sufficient Vitamin A is needed. To fight any inflammation you need sufficient Zinc a.s.o.) So it might be, that the C starts some process, that cannot be finished because other parts are missing.

I also do not understand the cross-reactions Dr. Berg describes. All I know is that K2 +D3+Boron+Magnesium+Calcium are interacting strongly. Copper is linked to Zinc, Zinc is linked to Vitamin C (if you need more C, take more zinc)– so yes, there is an interaction. (And of course every vitamin influences the whole body chemistry, so what he explains about K2, Copper … - is possible, but I just have not read anywhere about it isolated that way. I think there are other circulation processes that are well researched and confirmed).

I had far too high copper levels (and too low zinc levels) for years. Once I started supplementing zinc my copper went down to about the 1st 3rd of the scale and there it is since then (so it never got lower than that).

Me and my family have been on high dose ascorbic acid for the past 10 years - and none of us has spider veins (which are caused by K2, C, D3, E deficiency, so not just Vitamin C). I am the only one who has developed hemorrhoids. And yes, I developed them right after starting high dose oral C (about 10 years ago). It took me a while to find out, that I was deficient for just about anything, so after a while I started taking a multivitamin, D3, K2, Zinc,dha/epa.... – simply belance everything out. And my hemorrhoids haven’t gotten any worse after that 1 incident (never bleeding or anything like that). Besides Vitamin C also Vitamin E and Vitamin D3 are known to cause Hemorrhoids. So I’d rather “blame” the last 2 for me developing H.

I think Dr. Bergs Vitamin C Video is such a shame. I watched his other videos (potassium, electrolytes) and really found them interesting (not having read a lot about the topic myself before watching his information).
Now, after watcing his C Video, I am wondering if the others are better researched, or also just "his" opinion.

BUT I do think he points out something very important without naming it: taking high dose of ANY Vitamin can lead or demask other deficiencies. So especially in long term high dose therapies (such as cancer) you really have to make sure all that is needed is supplied in sufficient quantities to make your immune system work properly.

By the way: look at the comments beneath Dr. Bergs video.

Greetings
Suwesi

[Olam]

ok thanks suwesi for your info.
Anyone else care to add to this info?
thanks

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Olam (here)
Well, see this and tell me what you think!

In this video, Dr Berg presents us with a blizzard of misinformation, over simplification and selectively incomplete information ... in my not so humble opinion .

Well, I finally got around to suffering through this Dr Berg video again. It's worse than I thought .

Ascorbic Acid is not just a "protective coating" for other factors whose "only function" is to protect those "internal components." That's a totally bogus misrepresentation.

Vitamin C is an important biologically active molecule that most animals make internally inabundance, and ascorbic acid is one form of that molecule, bonded to a hydrogen atom (which is what the word "acid" means here.) Other forms of Vitamin C bond that same molecule to a mineral (such as sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium or zinc), or more complex molecules (such as in the fat soluble form, ascorbyl palmitate.) Dr Berg's chemistry is all messed up, and displays more Vitamin C fear mongering in its misconceptions, misinformation and choice of words, than it does biological accuracy.

The story about a person getting scurvy and spider veins after an injection of 100 grams of ascorbic acid makes no sense to me, except as more fear mongering. That's a hundred times the dose I would expect to be used, and at best represents malpractice. Survy is caused by severe deficiency of Vitamin C, not by (if the story is even slightly true) a dramatically high dose.

Suwesi provides more valuable critiques of Dr Berg's video. Thanks suwesi for saving me having to write more in this reply.

I agree with suwesi that the body requires a variety of minerals, in various proportions, and I've spent much time in recent years learning the importance of various minerals for the well being of my own body.