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Thread: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    The following is about a direction a thread took which I then commented upon.

    The beginning of this started here -

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1144468

    The member had quoted Robert David Steele but did not link back to the post he was quoting from so here is that post.

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1144463

    The member then highlighted a specific part of RDS' post - this...

    "ends support for people whose illnesses are brought on by life-style choices"

    and made this comment -

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    hmmmm....
    That's a bit savage. Those lifestyle choices where hardly free choices. There's more than 30 years of research into why.
    This is when I felt compelled to post my disagreement which started here -

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1144470

    Incidental to the heart of where the discussion went, I misinterpreted post #26 to imply I was hijaking the thread which I see that clearly I was mistaken (thanks to 7alon pointing that out).

    So why I am continuing on this discussion line is that I have reread the poster's posts a few times and I am not so sure we are even talking about the same thing. And because the point I am making (which directly relates to one of the many forms of lifestyle choices I do not believe society is benefited from when society enables these lifestyle choices) is from several direct personal experiences including my own, I am compelled to continue the discussion and will do so here so as not to hijack barneythez's thread.

    So here is more on this matter and I hope folks will comment.

    regarding this quote -
    Quote Posted by sheme (here)
    In the new world we treat anyone according to need not bar them from wellness because they are guilty of being weak - it could be the way to go.
    My sister's only daughter was weak. She was weak for a good 15 years from when she first showed her weakness. Her weakness was with methamphetamine, alcohol, weed and other sundry drugs. Each time my sister's daughter got in trouble (because of her decisions made in large part due to the influence of these drugs in her life), my sister was there for her, "helped" her, took care of her, got her to rehabs, got her out of jails, took her in and did all these things over and over and over.

    My sister's daughter brought four children into the world, the last three through reckless sexual activity. Two were adopted at birth and one right out of prison. One of the four has been terribly emotionally abused by the father which she now lives with and who took her away from my sister who had cared for her from birth (see more at the end of this story).

    My sister never realized until it was way too late that she crossed that magic line where her actions were not "helping" her daughter... they enabled her. When we enable addicts, we add to their empowerment. Few get this. Everyone needs to. My sister's actions gave her daughter the idea that it didn't matter what she did, it didn't matter that she not take her condition as an addict seriously. My sister's daughter never accepted that it was her and only her that needed to, indeed had to take that first step. "Helping her" (over and over and over) made sure she never had to.

    My sister essentially prevented her daughter from ever having to accept her own personal responsibility. My sister's actions played a significant role in her daughter never needing to look herself in the mirror and decide that indeed her life was a mess, that she was creating all sorts of havoc in the lives of others. It does society no good when we enable folks to continue to make lifestyle choices that are harmful to themselves and/or others and that society pays for this too. That is what RDS is referring to.

    Note that the story of my sister's daughter ended last July when Austin (aged 31) went driving off to East Texas (the place she would go when she sought speed and other drugs) from where she had been staying with her father near Dallas and somehow managed to veer off her lane on a two lane highway where she ran directly into a car coming the other direction killing the driver of the other car, possibly killing his passenger (we never learned her fate) and killed herself.

    Now I apologize that I had to make my point by sharing an extreme example of how "helping" can go way too far... where it clearly crosses that magic line and becomes "enablement."

    This is also exactly what overdoing massive social programs does when we enable self destructive and society robbing (in every way) behaviors that become glaringly clear lifestyle choices which the problem child is robbed from being faced with having to make.

    This robs everyone. Everyone loses... everyone including and especially the one who is enabled clearly beyond being "helped."

    It is this magic line I am hoping we discuss - it is not black or white which was the clearly stated in my very first response post here -

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1144477
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    So what do you suggest euthanase the problems? Of course not- we just have to treat people with problems in a wholistic way, band aid is our mistake -no one is dead just learning from the life we had is the real reason we incarnate- stuff happens. Don't forget who enabled the drug taking- our governments. I feel sad that you see your sisters love for her child as compromised because of the eventual outcome -we all do the best we can with what we have. Tell me in your perfect world when should we have put your sister down? Who are we to say a human being may not learn their life lessons becase it offends and embarrasses us - this is the point of life after all.

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by sheme (here)
    So what do you suggest euthanase the problems? Of course not- we just have to treat people with problems in a wholistic way, band aid is our mistake -no one is dead just learning from the life we had is the real reason we incarnate- stuff happens. Don't forget who enabled the drug taking- our governments. I feel sad that you see your sisters love for her child as compromised because of the eventual outcome -we all do the best we can with what we have. Tell me in your perfect world when should we have put your sister down? Who are we to say a human being may not learn their life lessons becase it offends and embarrasses us - this is the point of life after all.
    Again you miss the point and you also do not know the whole story. My sister finally did draw lines but unfortunately did so far too late.

    Your comment that suggests that folks be euthanized is incredibly ridiculous.

    You also completely avoided what I hoped to discuss that is what I referred to as "the magic line." Perhaps the reason you avoided doing so may be because you do not believe that line exists. If that is the case, then I would believe you believe that if you would simply state it. I would also respect your opinion that you do not believe there is one.

    My last comment is that in reading your whole post makes me realize that I probably should never have responded to you in the first place.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    If I may wade in to the fray... the line is quite difficult to determine, sometimes it is only in retrospect that we can see that there was even a line at all, especially in the case of people we love, we are attached to.

    While I agree that particularly with drug abuse one must be careful of enabling people when we try to help I am curious what social programs you feel are problematic in this way?

    In an ideal world everyone would have the education, health care and supports they need to be a successful human being and a mentor that knew when to let go or when to hold you tighter. A big problem in our modern world is that even with the best intentions the size and complexity of our living arrangements means that "one size fits all" solutions get applied to people with vastly different needs. Like welfare money given in the same amount to people in vastly different situations, who have different needs, if the intent is to pull them out of poverty? Is this what you are talking about?

    Genuinely curious.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    I am of the opinion that this kind of addiction signals possession - and is for the most part only successfully treated when recognized as such. Dr. Edith Fiore had some impressive success stories working with people who had chronic issues that had not responded to previous attempts at clearing or healing with her depossession work. Her work is just one example, I am sure there are many others. I know of the work of Dr Brian Weiss and Samuel Sagan in this vein, for instance.

    The idea is that when one is under the influence of an unseen force like this, especially a force that is usually not even considered to exist in the first place, attempts at freedom usually fail. The success rate of addicts who recover and stay clean is sadly very very low. I believe that this is the reason why. Even with a will of steel, dealing with possession is next level work that not many people (the victims, the therapists, the rehab programs) are well equipped to handle successfully.

    So on the one hand, I see your frustration Sam Hunter - this is a very sad story of destruction and loss that ripples outward and affects the lives of many. A demonic possession at work IMO. Do I believe it is necessarily the fault of your sister or her daughter? No, I don't. I can see how unfortunately your daughter's sister was somehow more inclined to be used in this way, and fell prey to what, according to your story, was a very nasty and evil force, whilst doing the usual experimentation that so many of us have delved into in our youth. So unfortunate on so many levels.

    This is a heartbeaking story all around - my heart goes out to all involved. I am very sorry for your losses Sam Hunter.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Never read the other thread but Sam's personal story evokes strong opinions in myself as well. So I will comment too.

    My entire life these last thirteen years has been about "saving" a person from drug abuse. I took them under my wing, supported them, offered no reprisals or warnings and just accepted them for who they were. (Sorry for the poor use of pronouns, but I am loath to use gender specific ones.) I loved them for all I was worth and never stopped loving them. When I noticed we were heading into victim - enabler territory I went for therapy and I did not insist that they do the same. I solved my major problems this way and the more I learned to stand in my own integrity the more they learned to do the same. Funny, strange, sad and true. I healed which allowed this other to heal as well. It wasn't easy. The urge to leave and never look back was very strong and I succumbed many times but always came back. It even became necessary to finally leave and start up my own home. This person then had themselves admitted and got the help they needed. Once clean I agreed to co-habitate again ( none of their therapy was my idea, nor did I even once suggest it). I can happily report that we are a couple and lead a drug-free life.

    Enabling is a choice but it is also part of the drug addict's lifestyle. They will steal, lie, extort, throw fits, and bring all manor of undesirables to your doorstep, including the authorities. And there is far worse they will do if necessary. Things most could never forgive them for. Yet the enabler must acknowledge their part and their own illness to effect true and lasting change.

    The secret is love, of course. Oodles and oodles of love. Consistent, never-ending love is the only remedy. Just remembering the decade-long experience begins my heart burning with that massive love bomb. That explosive, all-encompassing love that isn't mine, isn't yours. The love that courses through the universe and suffuses every infinitesimal piece of it. The love that isn't owned or subject to conditions or wielded as a weapon. The love we search for as truth and can reach only without ego.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    If I may weigh-in on this...

    Obsessive behavior... like indulging in drugs, alcohol, over-eating, excessive TV watching, sex-obsession, addiction to computer - this all has a basic root. And that root is escapism. Escaping from what, who, where & why?

    It begins quite early in life... its a programmed conditioning... unconscious conditioning of the children by society. Parents, communities, priests, teachers, schools, churches - they are all part of what makes up the society that every human being lives within. The society has programmed the child (via the parent) to not accept themselves for who they are. For example, the public expression of certain emotions is not acceptable.

    These unacceptable modes of behavior become unwritten, unspoken rules one is to live by. If one lives in a society, then the rules by which to live together are learned very early on. The more quickly one learns, one then becomes a good conformist. In order to 'fit' with the society one learns these rules. Otherwise, they become a misfit with the others they are living with. And most people don't like feeling like an outcast.

    This is all done so society can operate smoothly, and many people can live together in a kind of harmony. The society will appear to look healthy with every member following the same rules. But this comes at a cost. And that cost is that the members of that society need to repress, suppress and control themselves. The society has worked it out pretty well, because the members of society are programmed & conditioned to control themselves. Then the society doesn't have to do the controlling, because the individual members control themselves.

    Take the emotion of anger for example, one is not suppose show one's anger in public places, and often times, even at home, one should not express their anger. Hence, the child is taught that the expression of anger should be controlled, suppressed, repressed and is often times oppressed by the parents & guardians of the society. Over time, this unexpressed anger accumulates to the point that it is not easily allowed to be released... one becomes as if one is sitting on top of a volcano of unexpressed emotional anger - ready to explode. Often times, a simple scratch of the skin of a person is enough to have the release of pent-up emotions come blaring out.

    Emotions are meant to move - to be expressed - that's why the name... 'e-motion'. One controls their emotions to the point that they just don't feel that they can freely express themselves. They are held in a kind of prison - a self-created, self-programmed, prison. And so, they have a deep desire to escape from that prison.

    Society then has developed many ways for people to remain tranquil, to feel free from their prisons. Voila! One of these mechanisms is anti-deppressant medications... because if you feel as though you can't be who you are, then, over time, you will ultimately get quite depressed. Pop a pill to escape.

    Other ways to escape from your self-imposed depressed self is to indulge in a variety of other things... get preoccupied with a thousand & one other things... preoccupy yourself so you don't have to be with who you have self-created. Smoke pot, drink a beer, use drugs, hire a prostitute, or a gigolo... or do whatever is needed to runaway & escape from your own self-created misery.

    Excessive emotional suppression / repression can take you to the point of being so greatly divided between who you are & what society wants you to be that one reaches to the point of being somewhat schizophrenic... as a result, mind can even imagine / manifest another entity that has taken over oneself... Yes - inhibiting the expression of one's own emotional energies can lead to appearance that one has become possessed by another entity & needs to call on an exorcist to rid oneself of the self-created problem.

    What society has failed to do is to provide for a way, a way to facilitate a method for it members to express themselves so that they can remain mentally & physically healthy & to regain their sense of well-being when they have strayed off course, and to keep their sanity while living with other human beings in a societal situation.

    I think that should be enough for y'all to dwell on...
    Last edited by turiya; 5th April 2017 at 21:23.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Its best to let other people live their lives the way they wanted. No lines no standards. If he wants to hurt himself then so be it. The only line I will make is when someone gets hurt other than the person himself. As stated by Ernie the only way we can help is extend love to the person in trouble. or maybe their trouble exist only in our minds after all. as in every situation There is always a healthy middle
    Last edited by Bubu; 5th April 2017 at 22:51.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Its best to let other people live their lives the way they wanted. No lines no standards. If he wants to hurt himself then so be it. The only line I will make is when someone gets hurt other than the person himself. As stated by Ernie the only way we can help is extend love to the person in trouble. or maybe their trouble exist only in our minds after all. as in every situation There is always a healthy middle
    Yes, freedom to choose is ultimate.
    This includes that everyone has the right to choose to be in misery!
    I am not telling anyone what they should be doing. You still have a choice to ignore what I say. Nothing is being imposed on you.

    I'm just suggesting that some may be quite brainwashed into believing that the notion of self-sacrifice is the right way of living a life. Its simply a brainwashing!

    If someone really wants to hurt themselves, then its called masochism. And the State, society, government, depend on individual members to be masochistic in order for them to sacrifice themselves for society - for others to benefit. The individual himself doesn't benefit, unless they do it for a monetary gain, for prestige, to look good in the eyes of others. Then sacrifice yourself, find out where that path leads if you haven't traveled it before. It will lead to misery. But go ahead & find it out for yourself - whether this is true or not.
    "Oh, look how he sacrifices himself for others... such good man, woman, child, what a tremendous person to be serving his society... in the service of others. He deserves so much respect! He needs to be admired... What a tremendous soul."
    Nothing but a load of bullocks!

    Think about it: a masochist... to be a masochist... one, basically, doesn't love himself. Yeah, I know... religious teachings tell you to love thy neighbor, as you love yourself... but the 'as you love yourself' part is quite often overlooked & negated.

    Ask this basic question, first: Being a masochist... sacrificing yourself... Can you really say that you truly love yourself?

    Yes, you can deceive others, easily. You can even deceive yourself... into believing that you love hurting yourself. Then you are simply lying to yourself. Claiming to be virtuous. But underneath the skin, your are just plain sick. Psychologically sick!

    Ironically, hurting oneself, sacrificing oneself, so others may benefit, this is thought to be a good thing. This is also part of the programmed conditioning that societies brainwash their members with.

    In India, people pay homage, throw money at supposed 'holymen' that sit in public and hurt themselves. Pulling hair out of their heads - a practice of the Jain holymen. People stand in public places & whip themselves till the blood flows. And great crowds of people gather to watch these holymen... throwing rupee notes at their feet. It is thought to be a highly virtuous act, to publicly show you are sacrificing yourself so others can see.

    India takes it to the extreme, but it also goes on in the West, but with a difference... Western people beat themselves up, hurt themselves in their workaholic states... and try to hide their pain, their misery, their self-abuse - then nobody knows about it, cuz nobody sees it happening, its hidden from plain sight.

    Be a team player - sacrifice your own well-being so that the 'team' is successful... You get a good pat on the back. You get a pay raise, a bonus, named employee of the month. All this, so the company you work for benefits. All the while, you are hurting yourself. But its okay, because you've been conditioned to think its a good thing to do.

    It looks beautiful because you have been brought up in it: "Sacrifice yourself for others."
    This is altruism: the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others..
    Everyone has the Freedom of Choice. Everyone also has the Freedom to Choose - to be as miserable as they want to be.

    Enjoy your freedom. And then, stop complaining about what you've Freely Chosen for yourself.
    Accept whatever comes your way. Because that's what you've Freely have Chosen for yourself.
    Stop saying that demons are possessing me... because they are your own self-created demons that are coming home to roost.
    Last edited by turiya; 6th April 2017 at 02:45.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    I'd say the state needs to provide some support to troubled people, be they having psychological, substance abuse, homelessness or other problems. I believe everyone should be able to have a roof over their head and food and clothing as needed.

    Young people have a very high recovery rate from troubles when in a supportive environment. Agencies like john howard society have great programs for troubled people.

    Families can only handle so much nonsense, then professionals should take over.

    I am all for personal responsibility, but when a person needs support it should be available from the state, not in a form to make the stay attractive, but enough to provide the necessities of life and a way out, imho.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozv4oRZHtkY This a great establishment -alone, away from the dealers, suffering with love and care this is the way to go I feel.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by turiya (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Its best to let other people live their lives the way they wanted. No lines no standards. If he wants to hurt himself then so be it. The only line I will make is when someone gets hurt other than the person himself. As stated by Ernie the only way we can help is extend love to the person in trouble. or maybe their trouble exist only in our minds after all. as in every situation There is always a healthy middle
    Yes, freedom to choose is ultimate.
    This includes that everyone has the right to choose to be in misery!
    I am not telling anyone what they should be doing. You still have a choice to ignore what I say. Nothing is being imposed on you.

    I'm just suggesting that some may be quite brainwashed into believing that the notion of self-sacrifice is the right way of living a life. Its simply a brainwashing!
    agree "sacrifice" is part of brainwashing. AS I have mentioned in previous posts "who wants us to sacrifice" "Doing something for the good of all should be a joyful undertaking".

    I believe that respect more than education and conformity can bring peace to society.
    Last edited by Bubu; 6th April 2017 at 23:37.

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by Bruno (here)
    If I may wade in to the fray... the line is quite difficult to determine, sometimes it is only in retrospect that we can see that there was even a line at all, especially in the case of people we love, we are attached to.

    While I agree that particularly with drug abuse one must be careful of enabling people when we try to help I am curious what social programs you feel are problematic in this way?

    In an ideal world everyone would have the education, health care and supports they need to be a successful human being and a mentor that knew when to let go or when to hold you tighter. A big problem in our modern world is that even with the best intentions the size and complexity of our living arrangements means that "one size fits all" solutions get applied to people with vastly different needs. Like welfare money given in the same amount to people in vastly different situations, who have different needs, if the intent is to pull them out of poverty? Is this what you are talking about?

    Genuinely curious.
    Last Friday, I was called by my son, Anthony, with regards to my oldest son's (Stephen) latest eruption of personal difficulties (along the same lines as the ones I experienced as noted in this post). This is now Stephen's third event. He became full-blown psychotic, scaring the family members he was living with (threats to himself, threats to others, breaking objects, being fired from his job the day before for reasons we can only imagine were threats to his boss (who has since confirmed such), waiving garden tools around while running around the house with an army helmet on) and of course, I was the one called "to help."

    Despite that one year ago -
    when Stephen had experienced his second event - an event where he became so dangerous to others that I obtained the court order (which I required that Stephen's two other brothers support and even make the final call to obtain this order) such that he be taken to a psyche facility for his own protection and the protection of others... where the event culminated in the need for 6 police cars with 10 policeman having to come to my home when Stephen became violent...
    - I told those in my family who cared for Stephen that the most important thing we can all do for him is to unify such that his trusted loved ones all fully agreed that Stephen would have to understand and accept that unless he take the necessary steps he must take to live a life that never has to experience these horrific events (which endanger himself and others) then this will guarantee a future event. Note I did not say that by uniting we would be guaranteeing that Stephen would not have more of these events if we did this. This requirement for family unification and solidarity on the matter is a must all and only because folks like myself and Stephen will use the weak ones in the family to provide further enablement (and this comes in many forms) and the results will be tragic.

    The fact was clear to me that Stephen had inherited the same condition I have. That condition is a form of bipolar disorder which only erupts in psychotic events when one engages in the long term constant use of high quality marijuana. Note that other drugs such as alcohol and hallucinagenics would increase the problem, but at least never in my 10 experiences with psychosis have I ever experienced these events without these events being proceeded by long term constant use of high quality marijuana. There have been years where I did not use marijuana and yet did use alcohol and/or cocaine (though usually both), and did so addictively and yet never once did I ever tip into psychosis.

    Thus with my own experience in mind and considering that a genetic predisposition may (and the evidence suggest the odds of this are more than possible) be a significant component to this problem coupled with the fact Stephen has now gone full blown psychotic three times after long term, constant use of high quality marijuana, to me, it is 100% clear that Stephen cannot smoke weed at all, ever without the extremely high risk that this activity eventually results in a serious and dangerous psychosis.

    In addition, Stephen likely (and in my opinion, this is also 100% a fact but I am being careful with my words)... should never touch any mind altering drug of any kind, especially alcohol and/or any other illegal drug or dangerous prescription drug because when folks like myself (and almost certainly Stephen) do this, eventually we have a moment of weakness that despite our knowing as to what marijuana leads to (and I emphasize I am only referring to folks like me that have this very rare form of bipolar disorder) smoking marijuana again which (in my case and probably Stephen's) has resulted in addiction, long term usage of high quality marijuana and again, this has always resulted in a dangerous psychosis.

    I know Stephen's heart and his love for his family. But (just like myself when young), Stephen seeks the weak links in my own family to "support" his right to smoke weed.

    I found the ones in my family who either smoked weed, took pills and/or drank and did so beyond what could be called "casual drinking." I sought them out because they would say... "All you have to do is control it, control how much you take, control yourself... slow down when you think you may be getting 'goofy' again." But it is clear that because of their own situations which, though these situations did not evolve into becoming serious, dangerous psychosis, they were addicted too and they experienced significant life degradation and because they had no desire (or ability) to stop, much less admit they had (and have) a problem, they have only one choice but to either stop using themselves or have no credibility to Stephen if they say, "You cannot do this," because Stephen then says, "then why can you?"

    This is another form of enablement. This is when the impact of life choices spreads to others. This is an example (and I fully admit a rare and extreme one) where each and every event makes the line to draw clearer and clearer.

    So here's what happened and where this is at -

    Last Friday when I received the call from my second oldest son, Stephen's mother (my ex-wife divorced 15 years ago) was there at the home. In fact, as of last Friday, all three of my sons were living in the same home. In addition, their mother's father (thus my sons' grandfather) was also living with them. And their mother had recently broken up with her boyfriend of almost ten years so she had moved in with my sons as well.

    I told my son that it is important Stephen's mother act this time to obtain the court order. I said this because I firmly believe that the family must unite and become resolute or Stephen will continue to exploit the weak links. That he becomes truly dangerous to himself and/or others makes this action a pure "no brainer." Anyways, the mother agreed. I, of course, agreed to assist and guide with the process.

    By early afternoon, we had the order and were given a number to call for when "they" should pick Stephen up. The mother left this in the hands of everyone else as "she had to go to work." This meant Stephen's brother had to make the call. By this point, the grandfather was telling my sons that "doing this to Stephen was wrong." Everyone asked him what he thinks "we should do" and his answer was, "just beat his 'arse'" - how lovely. My son, Anthony finally made the call around 9:30 Friday evening. Clearly this did not help (to wait) as the police had far greater problems (in their mind) than to deal with this situation on a Friday night in this big city of Dallas, Texas.

    By the next morning, Anthony called me and I could tell he was caving. I asked him if he wanted me to make the call and he was relieved and told me. "Yes." I called. The police came (three cars, four policemen) and took Stephen to the local "public" hospital for a "psyche emergency." I spoke with the intake doctor who told me that Stephen would be transferred "upstairs" that afternoon (this being Saturday).

    I called "upstairs" and gave the nurse four phone numbers, his mother's, his two brother's and mine. That evening, I called again. The nurse said that Stephen would have to give permission to speak with me. I learned later that evening that Stephen only gave permission to speak with his mother. As it turns out, Stephen... having learned just like I did - how to act like nothing is wrong (despite being in a major psychosis), gave the staff all they needed which was the possibility in releasing Stephen right back out on the streets. But for them to do this (without legal exposure) they needed to release him to a family member. So they called Stephen's mother... the very same one who just 24 hours before was adamant "we" get a court order, the one who I insisted by the "signer" of the order this time, the one who then bailed because she "had to go to work"... and the hospital staff asked her if "she thought Stephen would be OK if they released him" which also required that she pick Stephen up.

    She told them she believed he would "be ok" and so they arranged for Stephen to be released at 6 AM Sunday morning. She went to pick him up and he was released to her. She did not tell anyone about this until she tried to bring Stephen back to the home where they had all been living. The home where less than 48 hours before Stephen had behaved so scarily and dangerously that all the above described events happened. A home where his brother's young, petite wife aged 20 and their young baby, aged 2, would be left at home alone with Stephen while Anthony and their youngest brother, James, would be going to work... ohhh and with the grandfather who said we should "beat Stephen's 'arse'" but that we were wrong to try and get him to a safe place and get him help.

    Anthony told her on the phone she was not bringing Stephen to their house at all whatsoever. Who can blame him. So the mother decided to take Stephen back to the country and her home which she had left after she broke up with her boyfriend (a month before... and note the boyfriend had moved out so the place was unoccupied). And so the grandfather revolted and said he was leaving too and so, Stephen, his mother and his grandfather have now left and gone to live in the country. We changed the lock as Stephen's keys were missing to ensure Stephen would not try to come back and enter the home. We make odds low he would, but this ensures that he could only break in and we make odds that he would do that much lower.

    And so now for the current state of this story and this situation. Just like the last time when Stephen had his psychotic break and had been hospitalized for a month whereby when he was released, he moved in with his mother in the country... Stephen will likely also be smoking marijuana again. Why? Because his mother and grandfather both also smoke marijuana. And though the brief (less than 24 hours) trip to the hospital provided Stephen with some form of "anti-psychotic medication" all that he left the hospital with is some sleeping pills.

    Of course, also, the mother and grandfather now view Stephen's brothers, Anthony and James as "bad guys" and of course, I am the "main bad guy" because I held firm throughout and have held firm on this matter for years (since I accepted my own condition which is exactly the same as Stephen's).

    I told Anthony that this will not go good but that at least the situation is isolated now to Stephen and his last two enablers. Anthony, being a golden-hearted and 'loyal to the end brother' texted the mother last night (even though she told him a few days ago that she was "finished with him) to ask how Stephen was doing. She replied that he was "doing better" and then described in detail what she is dealing with which clearly demonstrated he is not. He is back in full blown psychosis. The sleeping pills don't phase him, he barely sleeps, he is experiencing crying fits and then anger rages, etc.

    What we do not know is if she is providing him marijuana. Likely he is not being provided alcohol and they live far from any store. But I am certain that marijuana alone will only increase the intensity of his psychotic state. His mother's denial and complicity are increasing the odds this ends very badly.

    The point of posting this long but 'accurate in detail' story is to bring attention to that very tricky but with hindsight, very real "magic line" which was at the heart of my OP. My own experience with this disorder and my own experience in enacting every trick in the book to "keep holding out hope I could control it" gives me a great advantage in a.) being able to draw that line and b.) actually doing so. But my experience also has shown me how very complex this is.

    For example, the last time he went psychotic he was driving a car that he had just obtained through Uber. While he was full blown psychotic he came by my home and told myself and Anthony who was living with me at the time a story where he almost had a terrible accident because he was racing on the highway at over 100 miles an hour when he suddenly realized he was about to miss his exit, jerked the wheel and almost completely lost control of the car, almost caused a major accident and where it was clear he could have killed someone including himself. I was unable to convince him to get help, but two days later he showed up at my home (and this has all been posted on this very forum) and begged me to help him. I tried but when he learned the hospital would not allow him to smoke cigarettes he bailed and ran away. I went home, called Uber, found out who sold the car (and financed 100% of it) and called them and told them they best pick up the car asap or my son will destroy it. They asked me to bring them the car. Thankfully I had been given all of Stephens keys when he was about to commit himself to the hospital. I then brought them the car and ensured Stephen's (and others') safety. That afternoon I got the metal health court order. That evening Stephen showed up at my home, attacked me, a brother pulled him off me, I dailed 911 and Stephen ran away. This ended up where the 6 ccop cars and ten policeman showed up, found him in a bar down the street and got him to the hospital.

    Anyways... I am sure there will be more to this story. I pray it will be the best news possible and not the news I fear is more likely... that Stephen hurts someone or hurts himself and ends up in jail or worse.

    I can only look back and see where I made that very first all important step where I admitted my condition and I admitted what triggered the psychosis and that I was addicted to this trigger and had only one choice, never take the trigger. Secondarily I had to admit that when I partake in any form of "escape" via mind altering substances, I become weak such that I then fall back onto the trigger again (in my case, marijuana). What made the all important difference for me was when the fa,ily became united and undividable regarding my condition. That my father had sobered up and was an example of sobriety and not an example of a practicing alcoholic. Their resolve forced me out on my own. Sadly though, when I was 21, my father and step-mother (who raised me) died and I was not just on my own but was armed with a small trust fund which further enabled me to escape accepting my condition and only option. That is why I have experienced this 10 times... I always had soft landings... always up until that last time in 2012.

    In 2012 I hit the bottom of bottoms and had no other option but to accept my condition, accept what triggers it and choose not to ever, ever touch that crap again. As some of the old timers here know, I also dove into a very extensive personal examination of myself as I knew that I would never change a thing if I did not do so. And as some of the old timers here know... I did all this through this very forum. And this is why I have said, still say and will always say -

    The Project Avalon forum, how I used it and the vital role the membership and staff played in this dynamic literally saved my life.
    Last edited by Chester; 24th April 2017 at 14:21.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Wow Sam! Thanks for sharing. Thinking of you and your son. Sending you both healing thoughts.

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Posted here as I believe this is the more appropriate thread for my response to abmqa

    Quote Posted by abmqa (here)
    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    Hi norman, you seem to be off base here.

    I will explain by example:

    I am bi-polar. When I smoke marijuana for a lengthy period of time... large doses of high quality marijuana where I wake up in the morning and do it all day, I eventually go full blown psychotic. This has happened to me 10 times.

    When I had private insurance or money to pay for the for hospital bills I did not cost society and/or tax payers very much money. But the last few times this happened, I did because I had no private insurance and I had no money to pay the bills. The last few instances, I cost tax payers tens of thousands of dollars.

    I knew after a good three or four episodes that if I get back on weed, this could happen. After about the 7th or 8th time, I knew for certain this would happen. Yet after each instance (up until the last event back in 2012) I made the choice to start smoking weed again. I was responsible for my actions and yet because I failed to make the right choices in this regard, I cost other people money.

    THAT is (for example) what I am talking about.

    There are folks who know they need to eat better and yet don't and who are unable to pay the medical expenses that are the result of their choice.

    There are people who refuse to get any exercise despite their knowing that by not doing so, they increase their chances in experiencing serious health issues as a result.

    Alcoholics who have learned they are alcoholic and yet who refuse to stay off alcohol after treatment.

    Other types of addicts as well.
    How do you feel about the opiate epidemic that is occurring in the USA today? Do these "addicts" fit your profile as "life style" choices?

    From what I understand so many people have become addicted to doctor prescribed opiates that we now have government programs to combat this issue.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tion/84203944/

    Apparently what occurs is people are prescribed an opioid for ..lets say for chronic back pain. Surgery won't fix it so they need pain meds. Some people quickly build a tolerance to opioids and need more daily than what has been prescribed.

    Because they require more than what is prescribed they run out of the opioid before the next refill. This results in them either turning to "street drugs" like heroin or try to get opiates/opioids from the black market.

    This is a huge problem in the USA affecting people of all classes, rich or poor and races.

    So I ask you Sam, who is to blame in this case?

    Should the chronic pain sufferer just ...suffer silently...though now, not only back pain, but from the subsequent withdrawals that usually occurs within 24 to 48 hours of not having the opioid?

    I agree with Norman, that's a bit savage.
    I absolutely agree that beyond every other circumstance, this is ultimately a lifestyle choice.

    I can say this because I am an addict that finally made the choice to quit, stay quit, made (and continue to make) the lifestyle choices I had to make to stay quit which includes not being around practicing addicts and which includes living a far more healthy lifestyle.

    The key for me was that I got sick and tired of the results of my life choices that were heavily influenced by the weed I smoked, the booze I drank and the coke I snorted (my three favorite drugs). When I accepted that I had a disease and that I could never cure the disease, only arrest the disease... when I finally understood that it was my responsibility (and in fact 100% my responsibility) to take the necessary steps to arrest the disease and to remain 100% drug and alcohol free and then took those steps to do so. These last five years have been the best five years of my life. I have earned back the faith and trust of my family. I have established new work relationships where I am trusted to fulfill my responsibilities and honor my word which in turn has led to more fruitful work relationships. But more than anything and perhaps the key to my ability to keep this momentum going and stay 100% away from the crap (and the people who still do it) is that I have come to respect myself and do so for perhaps the very first time in my life. There has been nothing more rewarding than to experience self respect and self appreciation (which some might call true self-love - not egoic love). This self respect and self appreciation is not self centered. It is based on what I do for my family, loved ones, and friends that I was never able to do when immersed in my addictions.

    And I owe all this to the fact that I ran out of enablers, I ran out of "soft bottoms" provided by well intentioned third parties who only gave up when they realized they were not helping me but were instead enabling me to remain in a state that I harmed others and sometimes myself.

    This is why any and all programs that third parties (which includes governments) provide to "help" others must do. They must help others learn to help themselves to the degree each individual case proves they have crossed that magic line... an invisible line, a line that cannot be pre-defined but can clearly be seen when it is obvious to good hearted but also clear thinking individuals realize that their "help" is actually no longer helping... it is enabling.

    I am firm in my belief that "help" can cross a magic line where not only does it become enablement, it actually robs the individual the opportunity to experience the exhilarating liberation like I have experienced that I was only able to experience once I accepted that I was 100% responsible for getting clean, staying clean and making the lifestyle choices I needed to make to remain clean.

    This is why I am against social entitlements that provide never ending support to those who, because of this support (enablement) never have any reason to change and instead end up draining society until they die... and I see this happening all the time and I see that liberals who demand those who work hard for their earnings be forced to cough up huge chunks of the fruits of their labor to programs who provide every incentive in the world to their recipients "to remain on the tit" until dead. What a terrible "false gift" these folks give to the spirit of the recipients.

    And so no go to health care. When governments make citizens pay taxes to fund government healthcare where that government healthcare does not dis-incentivize folks from continuously making lifestyle choices that have been proven to accelerate and exacerbate costly healthcare issues, they are robbing us all. THAT is what I read Robert David Steele's point to be and I stand by it too. I do because I love others while I simultaneously have the strength of character to be able to make the very most difficult loving choice, that choice being - saying no when I see I am enabling someone to continue to avoid their own personal responsibility.

    I also observe that it is easy for folks whose livelihood may depend on government bureaucracies where they know they will never be anything but a "worker" (meaning never an entrepreneur) to have the attitude that government should babysit humanity to such ridiculous levels we see where many humans are robbed of their ability to overcome personal challenges and thus robbed of the spiritually liberating experiences someone like me had by overcoming my own challenges and doing so by accepting and enacting upon my own personal responsibility... and that its easy for these folks to demand "the wealthy" to pay for it all. This some view is way too pervasive among educators too... the Hollywood elite also are way overbalanced in this direction. There's also many families where wealth is passed down to lower generations who have no real clue what it is to actually do real work (many living off trust funds or living off "foundations") and so they spend their time beating their political chests as to what should be the values of others in this regard. And I just pointed to a few general groupings which are far too overbalanced towards this spirit robbing set of beliefs.

    Ohhh and as for the specific issue of the opiod addiction situation, let's look at the enablers.

    First, anyone who is against better securing the border enables the addicted in their ability to turn to heroin (or remain on heroin).

    And as for this link... what a joke

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tion/84203944/

    Look up George Webb's videos and find out how some of these opioids companies get their ingredients (who is involved in selling these ingredients to the pharma companies, how those ingredients get from where they are grown to where they are made into things like Oxycontin) and then rethink the appropriateness of your link.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycodone

    Quote Oxycodone is a semisynthetic opioid synthesized from thebaine, an opioid alkaloid found in the Persian poppy...
    Find out how these ingredients get to the processing centers of the big pharma companies that make these "legal" pills. Find out who are the ones that participate (either directly or indirectly) in making this all happen.

    Ohhh and by the way, I have had six sciatic nerve events since 2010. In fact I am dealing with one of the worst ones I ever had at this very moment. But because I am an addict, because I know and accept I have the "disease" of addiction, guess what I am taking "to ease the pain?" Nothing. I take nothing else either - no anti-inflamatory, nothing.

    And guess what too? About 4 months ago I asked my doctor to prescribe an MRI for me. An MRI that would maybe tell a surgical specialist what, surgically, might stop this problem from recurring. And guess what my doctor told me? She said that before she would do that, I would first need to lose weight. Why? Because she understood that in many cases like mine, the cause is from being overweight (and thus straining the back muscles that then cause the nerve pinching. And guess what I thought about that? I thought she was right and that unless I made lifestyle choices to lose the weight (diet adjustment and increased exercise) that I had no right to expect the US Government "Obama Care" entitlement to fund an expensive surgery that might otherwise be avoided if I make the correct lifestyle choice to lose the weight.

    And just imagine the other money I will be saving taxpayers who work hard for their money in all the other health benefits I will most likely experience if I lose my excess 50 pounds?
    Last edited by Chester; 12th April 2017 at 00:18.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    Posted here as I believe this is the more appropriate thread for my response to abmqa

    Quote Posted by abmqa (here)
    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    Hi norman, you seem to be off base here.

    I will explain by example:

    I am bi-polar. When I smoke marijuana for a lengthy period of time... large doses of high quality marijuana where I wake up in the morning and do it all day, I eventually go full blown psychotic. This has happened to me 10 times.

    When I had private insurance or money to pay for the for hospital bills I did not cost society and/or tax payers very much money. But the last few times this happened, I did because I had no private insurance and I had no money to pay the bills. The last few instances, I cost tax payers tens of thousands of dollars.

    I knew after a good three or four episodes that if I get back on weed, this could happen. After about the 7th or 8th time, I knew for certain this would happen. Yet after each instance (up until the last event back in 2012) I made the choice to start smoking weed again. I was responsible for my actions and yet because I failed to make the right choices in this regard, I cost other people money.

    THAT is (for example) what I am talking about.

    There are folks who know they need to eat better and yet don't and who are unable to pay the medical expenses that are the result of their choice.

    There are people who refuse to get any exercise despite their knowing that by not doing so, they increase their chances in experiencing serious health issues as a result.

    Alcoholics who have learned they are alcoholic and yet who refuse to stay off alcohol after treatment.

    Other types of addicts as well.
    How do you feel about the opiate epidemic that is occurring in the USA today? Do these "addicts" fit your profile as "life style" choices?

    From what I understand so many people have become addicted to doctor prescribed opiates that we now have government programs to combat this issue.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tion/84203944/

    Apparently what occurs is people are prescribed an opioid for ..lets say for chronic back pain. Surgery won't fix it so they need pain meds. Some people quickly build a tolerance to opioids and need more daily than what has been prescribed.

    Because they require more than what is prescribed they run out of the opioid before the next refill. This results in them either turning to "street drugs" like heroin or try to get opiates/opioids from the black market.

    This is a huge problem in the USA affecting people of all classes, rich or poor and races.

    So I ask you Sam, who is to blame in this case?

    Should the chronic pain sufferer just ...suffer silently...though now, not only back pain, but from the subsequent withdrawals that usually occurs within 24 to 48 hours of not having the opioid?

    I agree with Norman, that's a bit savage.
    I absolutely agree that beyond every other circumstance, this is ultimately a lifestyle choice.

    I can say this because I am an addict that finally made the choice to quit, stay quit, make the lifestyle choices I had to make to stay quit which includes not being around practicing addicts and which includes living a far more healthy lifestyle.

    The key for me was that I got sick and tired of the results of my life choices that were heavily influenced by the weed I smoked, the booze I drank and the coke I snorted (my three favorite drugs). When I accepted that I had a disease and that I could never cure the disease, only arrest the disease... when I fibally understood that it was my responsibility (and in fact 100% my responsibility) to take the necessary steps to arrest the disease and to remain 100% drug and alcohol free and then took those steps to do so. These last five years have been the best five years of my life. I have earned back the faith and trust of my family. I have established new work relationships where I am trusted to fulfill my responsibilities and honor my word which in turn has led to more fruitful work relationships. But more than anything and perhaps the key to my ability to keep this momentum going and stay 100% away from the crap (and the people who still do it) is that I have come to respect myself and do so for perhaps the very first time in my life. There has been nothing more rewarding than to experience self respect and self appreciation (which some might call true self-love - not egoic love). This self respect and self appreciation is not self centered. It is based on what I do for my family, loved ones, and friends that I was never able to do when immersed in my addictions.

    I am happy for you that you are now able to control your addictions. But thousands, and perhaps millions are not able to. By no fault of their own.


    Ohhh and as for the specific issue of the opiod addiction situation, let's look at the enablers.

    First, anyone who is against better securing the border enables the addicted in their ability to turn to heroin (or remain on heroin).

    And as for this link... what a joke

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tion/84203944/

    The thousands and perhaps millions who got caught in this situation by being legally prescribed addictive legal drugs would most likely not see this link as a joke, they are people with families, who were trying to manage pain. Although you may be able to cope with the pain, many many others are not. I feel that it's insensitive for you to expect people to deal with the situation like you have. You see it as a joke? Hope you had good laugh...smh

    Look up George Webb's videos and find out how some of these opioids companies get their ingredients (who is involved in selling these ingredients to the pharma companies, how those ingredients get from where they are grown to where they are made into things like Oxycontin) and then rethink the appropriateness of your link.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycodone

    Quote Oxycodone is a semisynthetic opioid synthesized from thebaine, an opioid alkaloid found in the Persian poppy...
    Find out how these ingredients get to the processing centers of the big pharma companies that make these "legal" pills. Find out who are the ones that participate (either directly or indirectly) in making this all happen.

    To me it doesn't matter where or how big pharma gets the needed ingredients. I don't know nor do I care. In the situation presented to you, the drugs are legally prescribed to someone suffering chronic pain. The patient who is in pain doesn't care about that, they just want relief, and rightly so IMO. I even condone them seeking relief however they can to include seeking illegal means.


    And just imagine the other money I will be saving taxpayers who work hard for their money in all the other health benefits I will most likely experience if I lose my excess 50 pounds?
    Ahh just imagine the savings?? Some things you cannot put a price on, nor should you even try. I see this as one of those things. To me when someone is in agony and needs relief from that agony, I don't think about money. Sorry, that is where we differ. To me, it's inhumane to take your position in this example.

    As for direct experience with opioid addiction. I have a friend who has worked for my father in his kitchen business. He is/was extremely talented with many aspects of construction and installing kitchens. He has sooo many skills from plumbing to electrical to roofing, painting, everything. When it comes to your house he can do it all.
    He is like a brother to me. Sadly he hurt his back in a auto accident, compressed discs and numerous other issues. In constant pain. He was prescribed opiates and thus began the downward spiral, just as I detailed above. No enabler was needed. A good person brought down by this tragic opioid epidemic.


    I find it hard to see your point of view without cringing just a little....A little compassion?? Maybe??
    Last edited by abmqa; 12th April 2017 at 00:56.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by Sam Hunter (here)
    Quote Posted by Bruno (here)
    If I may wade in to the fray... the line is quite difficult to determine, sometimes it is only in retrospect that we can see that there was even a line at all, especially in the case of people we love, we are attached to.

    While I agree that particularly with drug abuse one must be careful of enabling people when we try to help I am curious what social programs you feel are problematic in this way?

    In an ideal world everyone would have the education, health care and supports they need to be a successful human being and a mentor that knew when to let go or when to hold you tighter. A big problem in our modern world is that even with the best intentions the size and complexity of our living arrangements means that "one size fits all" solutions get applied to people with vastly different needs. Like welfare money given in the same amount to people in vastly different situations, who have different needs, if the intent is to pull them out of poverty? Is this what you are talking about?

    Genuinely curious.
    Last Friday, I was called by my son, Anthony, with regards to my oldest son's (Stephen) latest eruption of personal difficulties (along the same lines as the ones I experienced as noted in this post). This is now Stephen's third event. He became full-blown psychotic, scaring the family members he was living with (threats to himself, threats to others, breaking objects, being fired from his job the day before for reasons we can only imagine were threats to his boss (who has since confirmed such), waiving garden tools around while running around the house with an army helmet on) and of course, I was the one called "to help."

    Despite that one year ago -
    when Stephen had experienced his second event - an event where he became so dangerous to others that I obtained the court order (which I required that Stephen's two other brothers support and even make the final call to obtain this order) such that he be taken to a psyche facility for his own protection and the protection of others... where the event culminated in the need for 6 police cars with 10 policeman having to come to my home when Stephen became violent...
    - I told those in my family who cared for Stephen that the most important thing we can all do for him is to unify such that his trusted loved ones all fully agreed that Stephen would have to understand and accept that unless he take the necessary steps he must take to live a life that never has to experience these horrific events (which endanger himself and others) then this will guarantee a future event. Note I did not say that by uniting we would be guaranteeing that Stephen would not have more of these events if we did this. This requirement for family unification and solidarity on the matter is a must all and only because folks like myself and Stephen will use the weak ones in the family to provide further enablement (and this comes in many forms) and the results will be tragic.

    The fact was clear to me that Stephen had inherited the same condition I have. That condition is a form of bipolar disorder which only erupts in psychotic events when one engages in the long term constant use of high quality marijuana. Note that other drugs such as alcohol and hallucinagenics would increase the problem, but at least never in my 10 experiences with psychosis have I ever experienced these events without these events being proceeded by long term constant use of high quality marijuana. There have been years where I did not use marijuana and yet did use alcohol and/or cocaine (though usually both), and did so addictively and yet never once did I ever tip into psychosis.

    Thus with my own experience in mind and considering that a genetic predisposition may (and the evidence suggest the odds of this are more than possible) be a significant component to this problem coupled with the fact Stephen has now gone full blown psychotic three times after long term, constant use of high quality marijuana, to me, it is 100% clear that Stephen cannot smoke weed at all, ever without the extremely high risk that this activity eventually results in a serious and dangerous psychosis.

    In addition, Stephen likely (and in my opinion, this is also 100% a fact but I am being careful with my words)... should never touch any mind altering drug of any kind, especially alcohol and/or any other illegal drug or dangerous prescription drug because when folks like myself (and almost certainly Stephen) do this, eventually we have a moment of weakness that despite our knowing as to what marijuana leads to (and I emphasize I am only referring to folks like me that have this very rare form of bipolar disorder) smoking marijuana again which (in my case and probably Stephen's) has resulted in addiction, long term usage of high quality marijuana and again, this has always resulted in a dangerous psychosis.

    I know Stephen's heart and his love for his family. But (just like myself when young), Stephen seeks the weak links in my own family to "support" his right to smoke weed.

    I found the ones in my family who either smoked weed, took pills and/or drank and did so beyond what could be called "casual drinking." I sought them out because they would say... "All you have to do is control it, control how much you take, control yourself... slow down when you think you may be getting 'goofy' again." But it is clear that because of their own situations which, though these situations did not evolve into becoming serious, dangerous psychosis, they were addicted too and they experienced significant life degradation and because they had no desire (or ability) to stop, much less admit they had (and have) a problem, they have only one choice but to either stop using themselves or have no credibility to Stephen if they say, "You cannot do this," because Stephen then says, "then why can you?"

    This is another form of enablement. This is when the impact of life choices spreads to others. This is an example (and I fully admit a rare and extreme one) where each and every event makes the line to draw clearer and clearer.

    So here's what happened and where this is at -

    Last Friday when I received the call from my second oldest son, Stephen's mother (my ex-wife divorced 15 years ago) was there at the home. In fact, as of last Friday, all three of my sons were living in the same home. In addition, their mother's father (thus my sons' grandfather) was also living with them. And their mother had recently broken up with her boyfriend of almost ten years so she had moved in with my sons as well.

    I told my son that it is important Stephen's mother act this time to obtain the court order. I said this because I firmly believe that the family must unite and become resolute or Stephen will continue to exploit the weak links. That he becomes truly dangerous to himself and/or others makes this action a pure "no brainer." Anyways, the mother agreed. I, of course, agreed to assist and guide with the process.

    By early afternoon, we had the order and were given a number to call for when "they" should pick Stephen up. The mother left this in the hands of everyone else as "she had to go to work." This meant Stephen's brother had to make the call. By this point, the grandfather was telling my sons that "doing this to Stephen was wrong." Everyone asked him what he thinks "we should do" and his answer was, "just beat his 'arse'" - how lovely. My son, Anthony finally made the call around 9:30 Friday evening. Clearly this did not help (to wait) as the police had far greater problems (in their mind) than to deal with this situation on a Friday night in this big city of Dallas, Texas.

    By the next morning, Anthony called me and I could tell he was caving. I asked him if he wanted me to make the call and he was relieved and told me. "Yes." I called. The police came (three cars, four policemen) and took Stephen to the local "public" hospital for a "psyche emergency." I spoke with the intake doctor who told me that Stephen would be transferred "upstairs" that afternoon (this being Saturday).

    I called "upstairs" and gave the nurse four phone numbers, his mother's, his two brother's and mine. That evening, I called again. The nurse said that Stephen would have to give permission to speak with me. I learned later that evening that Stephen only gave permission to speak with his mother. As it turns out, Stephen... having learned just like I did - how to act like nothing is wrong (despite being in a major psychosis), gave the staff all they needed which was the possibility in releasing Stephen right back out on the streets. But for them to do this (without legal exposure) they needed to release him to a family member. So they called Stephen's mother... the very same one who just 24 hours before was adamant "we" get a court order, the one who I insisted by the "signer" of the order this time, the one who then bailed because she "had to go to work"... and the hospital staff asked her if "she thought Stephen would be OK if they released him" which also required that she pick Stephen up.

    She told them she believed he would "be ok" and so they arranged for Stephen to be released at 6 AM Sunday morning. She went to pick him up and he was released to her. She did not tell anyone about this until she tried to bring Stephen back to the home where they had all been living. The home where less than 48 hours before Stephen had behaved so scarily and dangerously that all the above described events happened. A home where his brother's young, petite wife aged 20 and their young baby, aged 2, would be left at home alone with Stephen while Anthony and their youngest brother, James, would be going to work... ohhh and with the grandfather who said we should "beat Stephen's 'arse' but that we were wrong to try and get him to a safe place and get him help.

    Anthony told her on the phone she was not bringing Stephen to their house at all whatsoever. Who can blame him. So the mother decided to take Stephen back to the country and her home which she had left after she broke up with her boyfriend (a month before... and note the boyfriend had moved out so the place was unoccupied). And so the grandfather revolted and said he was leaving too and so, Stephen, his mother and his grandfather have now left and gone to live in the country. We changed the lock as Stephen's keys were missing to ensure Stephen would not try to come back and enter the home. We make odds low he would, but this ensures that he could only break in and we make odds that he would do that much lower.

    And so now for the current state of this story and this situation. Just like the last time when Stephen had his psychotic break and had been hospitalized for a month whereby when he was released, he moved in with his mother in the country... Stephen will likely also be smoking marijuana again. Why? Because his mother and grandfather both also smoke marijuana. And though the brief (less than 24 hours) trip to the hospital provided Stephen with some form of "anti-psychotic medication" all that he left the hospital with is some sleeping pills.

    Of course, also, the mother and grandfather now view Stephen's brothers, Anthony and James as "bad guys" and of course, I am the "main bad guy" because I held firm throughout and have held firm on this matter for years (since I accepted my own condition which is exactly the same as Stephen's).

    I told Anthony that this will not go good but that at least the situation is isolated now to Stephen and his last two enablers. Anthony, being a golden-hearted and 'loyal to the end brother' texted the mother last night (even though she told him a few days ago that she was "finished with him) to ask how Stephen was doing. She replied that he was "doing better" and then described in detail what she is dealing with which clearly demonstrated he is not. He is back in full blown psychosis. The sleeping pills don't phase him, he barely sleeps, he is experiencing crying fits and then anger rages, etc.

    What we do not know is if she is providing him marijuana. Likely he is not being provided alcohol and they live far from any store. But I am certain that marijuana alone will only increase the intensity of his psychotic state. His mother's denial and complicity are increasing the odds this ends very badly.

    The point of posting this long but 'accurate in detail' story is to bring attention to that very tricky but with hindsight, very real "magic line" which was at the heart of my OP. My own experience with this disorder and my own experience in enacting every trick in the book to "keep holding out hope I could control it" gives me a great advantage in a.) being able to draw that line and b.) actually doing so. But my experience also has shown me how very complex this is.

    For example, the last time he went psychotic he was driving a car that he had just obtained through Uber. While he was full blown psychotic he came by my home and told myself and Anthony who was living with me at the time a story where he almost had a terrible accident because he was racing on the highway at over 100 miles an hour when he suddenly realized he was about to miss his exit, jerked the wheel and almost completely lost control of the car, almost caused a major accident and where it was clear he could have killed someone including himself. I was unable to convince him to get help, but two days later he showed up at my home (and this has all been posted on this very forum) and begged me to help him. I tried but when he learned the hospital would not allow him to smoke cigarettes he bailed and ran away. I went home, called Uber, found out who sold the car (and financed 100% of it) and called them and told them they best pick up the car asap or my son will destroy it. They asked me to bring them the car. Thankfully I had been given all of Stephens keys when he was about to commit himself to the hospital. I then brought them the car and ensured Stephen's (and others') safety. That afternoon I got the metal health court order. That evening Stephen showed up at my home, attacked me, a brother pulled him off me, I dailed 911 and Stephen ran away. This ended up where the 6 ccop cars and ten policeman showed up, found him in a bar down the street and got him to the hospital.

    Anyways... I am sure there will be more to this story. I pray it will be the best news possible and not the news I fear is more likely... that Stephen hurts someone or hurts himself and ends up in jail or worse.

    I can only look back and see where I made that very first all important step where I admitted my condition and I admitted what triggered the psychosis and that I was addicted to this trigger and had only one choice, never take the trigger. Secondarily I had to admit that when I partake in any form of "escape" via mind altering substances, I become weak such that I then fall back onto the trigger again (in my case, marijuana). What made the all important difference for me was when the fa,ily became united and undividable regarding my condition. That my father had sobered up and was an example of sobriety and not an example of a practicing alcoholic. Their resolve forced me out on my own. Sadly though, when I was 21, my father and step-mother (who raised me) died and I was not just on my own but was armed with a small trust fund which further enabled me to escape accepting my condition and only option. That is why I have experienced this 10 times... I always had soft landings... always up until that last time in 2012.

    In 2012 I hit the bottom of bottoms and had no other option but to accept my condition, accept what triggers it and choose not to ever, ever touch that crap again. As some of the old timers here know, I also dove into a very extensive personal examination of myself as I knew that I would never change a thing if I did not do so. And as some of the old timers here know... I did all this through this very forum. And this is why I have said, still say and will always say -

    The Project Avalon forum, how I used it and the vital role the membership and staff played in this dynamic literally saved my life.
    Sam, Thanks for sharing this. I can only imagine how hard it is to deal with. Keep your head up!!

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by abmqa (here)
    Ahh just imagine the savings?? Some things you cannot put a price on, nor should you even try. I see this as one of those things. To me when someone is in agony and needs relief from that agony, I don't think about money. Sorry, that is where we differ. To me, it's inhumane to take your position in this example.

    As for direct experience with opioid addiction. I have a friend who has worked for my father in his kitchen business. He is/was extremely talented with many aspects of construction and installing kitchens. He has sooo many skills from plumbing to electrical to roofing, painting, everything. When it comes to your house he can do it all.
    He is like a brother to me. Sadly he hurt his back in a auto accident, compressed discs and numerous other issues. In constant pain. He was prescribed opiates and thus began the downward spiral, just as I detailed above. No enabler was needed. A good person brought down by this tragic opioid epidemic.


    I find it hard to see your point of view without cringing just a little....A little compassion?? Maybe??
    Read my other posts. You are making this a black and white issue and that drawing incorrect conclusions.

    I have an operational protocol which is this -

    "Help, help and help some more... help until you see your help (speaking for myself here) is no longer helping but enabling. And when you see that, if you really love the one you are trying to help, do the hardest act of love one can ever be faced with doing which is to say, "No... no more, I am not going to continue to save you when you won't do your part to save yourself."

    To take another example that I touched upon... when lifestyle choices cause play a big role in creating or exacerbating health issues such es excess weight. Each individual is different. There are some folks who no matter what they do, they can't lose what the doctors would say is excess weight. This may be things related to endichronological disorders, etc. These folks should get help (IMO). These folks should not be held to the life style choice that another may very well be held to. Each case is different. What makes no sense is endless entitlement where those who have the reasonable capacity to make better lifestyle choices chose not to. There's no way society should have to carry all their water and indeed, if they refuse to do their part, should have to carry much of any of their water.

    Look at your friend's case based on the basics you told me. He was terribly unfortunate. Also, I see he has just about zero responsibility that he ended up addicted (and how all that happens is a whole other thread)... but yet there is a point where he would need to make a choice as to getting treatment or not. If he refuses treatment, hopefully his family intervenes in a way he is made to try and get clean (and those options are there, I know this as they have been done for me and I have done this for others including two of my three sons). If there's no family or the family shows they are incompetent or incapable in helping him take these first steps (even if this means forcing) then I see no option but that society does this BUT... and this is the whole point I tried to make. At some point, this person will have to take the steps to lasting recovery themselves. They can be led to water... they can even drink a few times, but if they do not take the important steps in admitting their condition (regardless of the circumstances as to how that all came about, regardless of being able to point fingers at a greedy healthcare system that just wants to sell pills) and admitting they need help and then accepting that help in all its forms which will include a serious lifestyle change, they will never remain "off the crap." And if they don't get off and stay off, they will continue to be a burden to their family, loved ones, friends and society in every way... emotionally, physically (as some can become physically dangerous to themselves or others), and fibabcially. All these matter... financial matters too.
    Last edited by Chester; 12th April 2017 at 01:25.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by abmqa (here)
    Sam, Thanks for sharing this. I can only imagine how hard it is to deal with. Keep your head up!!
    Thank you very much and I just said a prayer for your friend. His case is a true tragedy.

    Note that I have recently begun to explore ways I can help folks such as I in my local community. I hope you can understand that my passion about my position comes from direct personal experience... read this post on that same thread I originally quoted you from to see that in my family we are dealing with bipolar illness. Apologies if I at all came off too strong. It is my passion that arose.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: So as not to derail or hijack the Robert David Steel thread...

    Quote Posted by turiya (here)
    If I may weigh-in on this...

    Obsessive behavior... like indulging in drugs, alcohol, over-eating, excessive TV watching, sex-obsession, addiction to computer - this all has a basic root. And that root is escapism. Escaping from what, who, where & why?

    It begins quite early in life... its a programmed conditioning... unconscious conditioning of the children by society. Parents, communities, priests, teachers, schools, churches - they are all part of what makes up the society that every human being lives within. The society has programmed the child (via the parent) to not accept themselves for who they are. For example, the public expression of certain emotions is not acceptable.
    Can it not also start out by being prescribed extremely addictive legal drugs?? To look past this fact, is a little unusual to say the least. TBH I understood this posts to be about prescribing legal pain medicine.

    Sure, there are many who abuse legal and illegal drugs much to their detriment, as Sam has alluded to in his posts.

    These people are a playing a dangerous game when it comes to opioids. Their reasons are different from those who are legally prescribed drugs.

    Those who choose to do these drugs illegally, I feel must take responsibility for their choices, but still deserve some kind of help if they want it.
    Last edited by Sierra; 24th April 2017 at 18:25. Reason: Fixed missing closing quote brackets

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