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Thread: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

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    Canada Avalon Member Chakra's Avatar
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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    United screwed up - they know they screwed up and are pathetically trying to divert the backlash by blaming the victim. Typical jackass move by the nut-bar fringe element that run companies.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    The old airplane stock of Eastern Airlines went to Continental and now United. It is amazing they are still flying. I once flew Eastern to California and later Continental. On both occasions, I was absolutely certain that the plane was going to crash any second. Flying over mountains can be bumpy but not traumatic!

    On the subject of New World Order brutality, if no one bigger than the selected "dogs or goons" will stand up against, singly or as a group, to help a weaker person, then we are all headed for the goulag, the fema camp and the guillotine. The Courts were born in the New World Order Camp. There is no justice there. Look at who pays the Judges.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    It wouldn't be something I'd think about and contemplate the repercussions. I would just act to protect. It's in my nature.

    I am certainly not a tough guy. But sometimes the need to stand up is paramount. I do the same in daily situations as well, in milder form. I don't suffer BS well.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Yes, these actions could only happen in a police state. In Canada, too, there are tremendous abuses of power in the airline industey and airports that haven't been addressed by govt. White middle class individuals are not exposed to the same kind of regular abuse as the powerless. It's only when we are bumped for no reason or dragged off a plane we feel the abuse of the vulnerable.

    Lots of lip service paid to the notion of freedom but if you ever find yourself down and out or powerless, watch out! Both societies are becoming increasingly less civil, less truly compassionate.

    I just defended Canada and Trudeau the other day on this forum and have been doing a lot of reflecting on that position lately.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Quote Posted by chancy (here)

    Hello Everyone:
    I don't believe any public employee should get "paid leave" when they have done something wrong!

    If I do something wrong I don't get paid leave! If you do something wrong you don't get paid leave! Why is it acceptable to get paid leave for being a bully? What if this man had a bad back or a pre condition that could have killed him? Is it perfectly ok to give the bully who is pulling him down the isle "paid leave"? I know it's not and it should be stopped.
    chancy
    when an employee wrong the management he is sacked without pay immediately. But if a police officer abuse an ordinary citizen he gets a no work with pay (reward)
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 12th April 2017 at 02:16. Reason: fixed quote formatting

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts and have learn quite a lot of facts,statistics and good information.

    There is moral dilemma here, would you help this man being bullied?

    It is as simple as that for me. I Would because I just couldn't help myself not too. A top of the roller coaster moment that could well have been handled without violence.

    There is another point though, which is being overlooked. Yes this went viral but, if the major news networks didn't pick it up and run with it, then many people wouldn't have seen it.

    I'm open minded about this incident, but if I was to be sceptical or critical I would question, like I have just mentioned. The coverage this got, the message it is sending out to what is deemed to be acceptable public behaviour no matter what badge or uniform the perpetrators are wearing or in some cases hiding behind, as you don't just trade your morals in to keep to seat if a fellow traveller is getting a hard time.

    leading to my final observation, there are other stories that seem to be getting overlooked/buried . There are many,but what sprung to my mind was Rex Tillerson's meeting with Vladimir Putin in which the Russian leader gives a very credible account of what may have happened regarding the recent alleged chemical weapons deployment in Syria. Yes this this is getting some coverage but pale in comparison to this "passenger removed from plane" story.

    Just an observation from my little corner of the world.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    There is another point though, which is being overlooked. Yes this went viral but, if the major news networks didn't pick it up and run with it, then many people wouldn't have seen it.
    A good point. Being a bit of a ludite and 'not doing' any social media, I have to admit that without social media or youtube, and without mobile phones to record the event, we'd probably never know about it. The whole story would've been quickly quashed by the airline, and then forgotten.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    There's always options, even when it seems like there aren't.

    One of these days we will quit being sheep... the worst part about those videos is how everyone just sat there and watched.

    I guess we are that conditioned at this point, right and wrong are meaningless when someone wears a costume with stars on it.

    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    the message it is sending out to what is deemed to be acceptable public behaviour
    It's a subtle way of re-enforcing the conditioning: Authority figures can do what ever they want.

    and of course, distraction.
    Last edited by TargeT; 12th April 2017 at 13:22.
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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    How to not get bumped from a flight (and how to make the most money if you do)

    Published: Apr 11, 2017 4:15 p.m. ET

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how...ht-and-how-to-
    make-the-most-money-if-you-do-2017-04-11

    KNOW YOUR RIGHTS

    By
    Kari
    Paul
    Reporter

    United Airlines UAL, +0.07% is continuing to weather an onslaught of
    international outrage after video of a passenger being forcibly removed from a
    plane in Chicago was posted online Sunday night — bringing into question the
    policy of selling more tickets than there are seats for flights.

    But while overbooking flights is completely legal (and common), there are still
    measures consumers can take to prevent themselves from being booted off a flight
    — and get a hefty compensation if they are.

    To be safe, don’t fly economy

    If a flight is overbooked, airlines will start by asking for volunteers to take
    various forms of compensation for giving up their seats, which can range from a
    coupon for a cup of coffee or more than $1,000 in cash. If not enough volunteers
    come forward, the airline is within its legal right to remove passengers from
    the flight involuntarily. But as the Department of Transportation noted in a
    statement on Monday, “it is the airline’s responsibility to determine its own
    fair boarding priorities.”

    “Typically the hierarchy goes from back to the front,” said Joseph Lorusso, a
    Colorado-based aviation attorney and airline-rated pilot, noting that he doesn’t
    have knowledge of United’s specific system. “Without knowing the exact protocol,
    you’re going to be safer in first class or even business than if you’re just
    flying economy.”

    Always negotiate

    Whether you are bumped from a flight voluntarily or involuntarily, Lorusso said
    it’s important to view the Department of Transportation’s Passenger Bill of
    Rights and ask for sufficient compensation. Customers who are “involuntarily
    denied boarding” of an aircraft on domestic flights (even if they’re already on
    the plane) are entitled to 200% of their one-way fare in compensation (no more
    than $675) in cash if their delay is more than one hour but less than two,
    according to a federal regulation. If the delay is more than two hours, they are
    entitled to 400% of a one-way fare (but no more than $1,350) in cash.

    “It’s a negotiation between you and the airline - for both voluntary and
    involuntary bumps,” he said. “Just because they say they’ll give you a ticket
    does not mean you have to take that.”

    Comply with the crew

    When passengers are involuntarily bumped, they must leave the plane, Lorusso
    said — so what happened on the United flight would not be illegal. However, in
    this particular incident, the flight was not oversold but past capacity because
    four crew members were trying to make it to Kentucky for another job. Because of
    this, the involuntary bump may not have been protected under federal law,
    Lorusso said, which only covers paying customers — not traveling crew.

    Don’t Miss: ‘Re-accommodate’ is United’s euphemism for forcibly dragging
    passenger off an airplane

    Still, plane passengers can be removed at any time under the contract of
    carriage. Because the plane’s door was open, Lorusso said the crew followed
    proper federal protocol by calling local police, as they were still under state
    jurisdiction. Once the door is closed, the plane falls under federal
    jurisdiction, and passengers legally must comply with uniformed crew members —
    including flight attendants.

    “That door controls more than people think,” he said. “The most important thing
    to keep in mind is to comply: if they ask you to get off the airplane, then get
    off.”

    Choose your airline wisely

    It doesn’t have to be this way, said Brett Snyder, author of the
    airline-industry blog CrankyFlier.com. Other airlines have implemented systems
    to avoid such issues — including JetBlue, which doesn’t oversell flights.

    “Airlines need to figure out a better way to do this,” he said. “For example,
    Delta bumps a ton of people but it’s almost entirely voluntary — they have
    gotten good at getting aggressive at the gate trying to make sure they are
    prepared before anyone boards.”

    In the meantime, these policies may be under examination internally at United,
    said Lorusso.

    “It’s a cost-benefit analysis for them — they don’t want to give away too much
    when they are afforded the right to bump involuntarily,” he said. “But I bet
    United is looking back and thinking they should have offered more than $800
    after this.”

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    United CEO Oscar Munoz admits "LACK OF COMMON SENSE" was the main issue

    In post #4 above, I pointed out that apparently some people "did stupid" and apparently showed the world that they "LACKED COMMON SENSE", for instance, the United Flight crew that ordered police to remove the passenger (by force), the United manager, the gate people (who should NOT have allowed on passengers if a planned BUMP was scheduled)..

    Munoz says he WON'T RESIGN over the issue, but he agrees, that it was stupid to remove a booked seated PAID passenger from the flight.. He says UNITED will never do such a thing again.. (hmmm, "read my lips!" ??)

    United Stock shares have been taking a nose-dive since the incident has been reported world-wide.

    With the situation of "over-booking", verses "accommodating United Employees" (the 4 members that United wanted to fly for free), it is quite possible that the "over-booking rules" will not apply, and United and the people involved WILL be cited as culpable for violating a legitimate passenger's rights (wellbeing and physical safety). I suppose the abused Doctor could argue that the patients that he was scheduled to see have also been harmed by his not being there to attend them, and that he himself has been irreparably harmed, stress, mental, potentially physical inability to perform surgery to having been "traumatized".. No doubt United Air lines is in a "sticky wicket".

    reference: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/this-...interview.html

    Quote Oscar Munoz, CEO of United Airlines makes a statement during an interview.

    "This will never happen again," United Chief Executive Oscar Munoz said in an interview Wednesday. "That's my promise."

    The interview came three days after the violent eviction of a passenger from a United Express flight. Munoz received widespread criticism for his response to a social media storm that followed the posting of video of the confrontation.

    Asked if he would resign, Munoz responded: "No. I was hired to make United better, and that's what we'll do."

    The CEO added that he didn't issue a more in-depth apology until Tuesday because "the expression of apology is important in a discussion like this."

    Explaining why the debacle happened in the first place, Munoz told GMA it was a "system failure," where the company didn't provide the right tools or resources to allow United's "front-line managers" to "use their common sense."

    Further, Munoz said United will not use law enforcement to remove on-board passengers in the future, as was the case on Sunday evening.

    How the United fiasco unfolded

    Initially on Monday, after video surfaced of the bloodied passenger being dragged from his flight by law enforcement, the stock climbed around 1 percent as Wall Street largely ignored the issue. But overnight outrage spread internationally, and the stock lost as much as 4 percent Tuesday.

    Munoz issued a detailed apology, his second statement on the incident, late in the day Tuesday, and shares pared back their initial losses, closing the day down around 1 percent.

    "The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way," Munoz said in a statement.

    The passenger was identified Tuesday as Dr. David Dao. In a statement, his lawyers said:

    "The family of Dr. Dao wants the world to know that they are very appreciative of the outpouring of prayers, concern and support they have received. Currently, they are focused only on Dr. Dao's medical care and treatment." The statement by Chicago attorney Stephen Golan also said the family has asked for privacy.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    The MSM of course capitalized on this event, bringing in pundit attorneys and so forth. There will be a lawsuit no doubt. And God help this man if his practice is compromised over this. I am married to a Dr and I thought about this for myself. What if we had scheduled patients and were ordered to deplane? Gone are the days when someone in need shouts in the plane- Is there a Doctor on board? Gone is the respect or care for one another. United has always itched me the wrong way, so my next Hawaiian vacation will be Hawaiian airlines.
    When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant, disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandparent, dignified as a king. -- I Ching

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    My no fly ever anywhere protocol seems like the best solution. But for me its about the constantly changing air pressure that I cannot take. I get nose bleeds and I get very bad headaches that can last for days.
    In the final analysis, the shock of the atrocious way this passenger was treated highlights the uncomfortable truth of our situation: that we are living in a society where violence is always just around the corner and will be visited upon you without hesitation if you cross the law, whether willfully or accidentally, whether within your rights or not.
    Of course it further underscores the blatant fact that violence is rampant in our society wherever you choose to look.
    I could never suffer through a four hour delay on the tarmac or a 16 hour flight - it would utterly drain me.
    Don't forget, since the 1950s, air travel has remained virtually the same. Same travel time, same leaky craft, same crappy service, same cramped seats.
    These old technologies have to be replaced, but not in a monetized world, not any time soon at least.
    I guess the consensus recommendation is best: comply, but negotiate for proper compensation.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    The other two aviation cops involved with the dragging of the 69 year old Doctor, have been now put on "administrative (paid) leave".

    It would seem that all 3 are now, at the moment, no longer a risk to the public's safety.

    reference: NBC Mainstream media news 1500 hours Central Time.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    The harmed Doctor, David Dao has just filed an emergency "bill of discovery" against the carrier in Illinois State Court demanding that evidence documenting Sunday's "re-accommodation" aboard a Kentucky-bound plane be "preserved and protected."



    "That includes all surveillance videos, cockpit voice recordings, passenger and crew lists, incident reports and other items.

    "Dao "currently has no access to them and believes that serious prejudice" will befall his case if the items are not safeguarded, the court papers state."

    The term "re-accommodation" is airline jargon for bumping/removing a paid passenger from travel on the airline's plane(s).

    reference: http://www.12newsnow.com/news/david-...ence/430808752

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    There's always options, even when it seems like there aren't.

    One of these days we will quit being sheep... the worst part about those videos is how everyone just sat there and watched.

    I guess we are that conditioned at this point, right and wrong are meaningless when someone wears a costume with stars on it.

    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    the message it is sending out to what is deemed to be acceptable public behaviour
    It's a subtle way of re-enforcing the conditioning: Authority figures can do what ever they want.

    and of course, distraction.
    apologies for the off topic comment.

    Hi, I am happy to see you back. Thanks for coming back, Target... Sam.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    United Airlines trying to BRIBE the passengers on the flight that witnessed the Doctor (69 years old) being forcibly ejected from a legally paid for seat to allow a free United employee to fly..

    reference - http://abc7.com/travel/united-offeri...iasco/1866233/

    United knows that it's stock tanked with millions and millions of dollars being lost for it's blatant stupidity, and LACK OF COMMON SENSE and Judgement..

    They are trying to get passengers to not report on what happened by trying to 'buy them off' offering ALL passengers some rebate..

    Quote CHICAGO -- United Airlines sought to quell the uproar over a man being dragged off a plane by announcing on Tuesday that it would no longer ask police to remove passengers from full flights and would compensate customers who were on the flight when the man was removed.

    In an effort to calm the backlash, United also announced that passengers on United Express Flight 3411 would be compensated equal to the cost of their tickets.
    Seems this is quite underhanded.. What do you think?

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Not one of these posts has commented on the fact that this man was SIXTY NINE YEARS OLD. MY birthday was yesterday and I am 72. This man was chosen because he was old and felt to be easily intimidated and the belief that at his age he had nothing better to do. I encounter this all the time. I experienced it a lot in LA with white hair. I could be in line for whatever and they would take someone a head of me with a brief apology about getting back. Old people are often not believed. I once raise my voice about his and immediately got crazy old lady.

    The airline has immediately gone into his past to discredit him as a victim.

    This could easily happen to greybeard and a few others here. Then you would note his age. This guy could have all kinds of whip lash etc. I know my body would be in really bad shape for weeks after being dragged like that.

    The one thing I have learned being both old and Jewish is that I am not walking onto any box car or violation of my rights ever. Just go a head a shoot me. And I expect the rest of you to understand what I did and why. And at least stand up and say something about it. Because we all know for whom the bell tolls----all of us.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Tweets for United Airlines










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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    United Airlines trying to BRIBE the passengers on the flight that witnessed the Doctor (69 years old) being forcibly ejected from a legally paid for seat to allow a free United employee to fly..

    reference - http://abc7.com/travel/united-offeri...iasco/1866233/


    United knows that it's stock tanked with millions and millions of dollars being lost for it's blatant stupidity, and LACK OF COMMON SENSE and Judgement..

    They are trying to get passengers to not report on what happened by trying to 'buy them off' offering ALL passengers some rebate..

    Quote CHICAGO -- United Airlines sought to quell the uproar over a man being dragged off a plane by announcing on Tuesday that it would no longer ask police to remove passengers from full flights and would compensate customers who were on the flight when the man was removed.

    In an effort to calm the backlash, United also announced that passengers on United Express Flight 3411 would be compensated equal to the cost of their tickets.
    Seems this is quite underhanded.. What do you think?
    I have been bribed out of my seat a few times with travel vouchers.I stopped accepting the vouchers because every time the price of the next flight is magically more than the last and end up paying again.If you find you are the lucky winner, take cash if it is offered.It looks like you wont be offered a bloody nose any longer.

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    Default Re: United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat

    Warning, no one will like my entire post.

    The overbooking policy saves travelers ticket costs.

    It is possible (if the claims from United are true...) that technically the flight was not overbooked.

    Regardless of this potential technically, the actions taken appear to have been based on protocols for overbooking.

    These policies are regulated and thus the airlines are restricted in what they can do in this regard (meaning how far they can go).

    There appears to be either or both a flaw in the management process and a lack in the establishment of sufficient management protocols, especially for if/when situations like this get dicey.

    That seats were needed to transport employees to another location for what was deemed more important to United than the potential fallout seems like an obvious lack of judgment.

    When the nuclear option was enacted (4 were forced to go), the process of selection was based on policy in conjunction with regulations.

    At this point, three people (I assume they were of the list of four that had been selected as per regulations) left peacefully (and I surely hope they did not waive their right to the "best, last offer).

    It has also been reported that the Dr. gentleman had also left the flight and then somehow got back on.

    What I wonder is, was the cockpit jump seat available? If so, why was not one of the airline personnel shifted to that seat. If this was the case, perhaps this was no longer an option based on regulations where if the nuclear option was enacted, by doing this, the other three who left peacefully could have a valid complaint.

    Why were these four employees not transported to their location via another option? From my understanding, their obligation was timed for the next day. Perhaps they risked meeting mandated sleep requirements? (regulations again perhaps).


    And so now, after the Dr. had purportedly left the plane and yet then "snuck back on" (not sure how that can even happen), he was again asked to leave. It is safe to assume that at this point, emotions on all sides started to bubble.

    It was reported that the Dr. still refused to leave and this is when airport police were called.

    I will insert this thought here now... why could the pilot not make the decision to just site at the gate until the man left peacefully? Surely the other passengers might begin to implore the Dr. to leave or one of them volunteer themselves? Perhaps not an option due to regulations?

    Now for what may likely become controversial but hey... I post my views honestly.

    It is my opinion that despite all the valid arguments the Dr. could have put forth, he also has personal responsibility as to how he manifests his own behavior. When police become involved, this takes on a whole new dynamic. Especially when it is Airport Police in the post 9/11 era.

    That refusal to leave and based on the likely legal mandates provided for the Airport Police, they probably had the legal right to begin to use forceful means to remove him.

    It appears the man reacted in ways that the Police determined that they had no choice but to become forceful.

    The video I saw shows (with good audio) that the man was screaming as if he were being dipped in boiling tar.

    Videos show that other passengers reacted with outrage - And these reactions struct me as massively over-dramatic. It further bothers me when I consider none of those did their part to avoid the issue by giving up their own seat. Though, of course, why should they?

    Why someone should have stepped up IMO is that anyone who was there surely could see the situation was only going bad. Want to help the world? Take the hit for the sake of peace. I know for certain I would have so I have no problem saying this.

    So does the doctor have a case? Obviously. In our day and age, this is a slam dunk. He will end up with millions. I am certain the "trauma" (his excellent acting job by being way way over-dramantic) and his very superficial injuries where the worst case is that he may have suffered a fractured nose would likely be considered by the Dr. to be "well worth it." He played the system and is a shoe in to win and win big.

    The airline CEO... obviously in hindsight, could have handled this much better from the perspective of shareholders as he increased the outrage and thus increased public fallout.

    But my own final conclusions is an indictment against everyone involved at every level of how this all unfolded and this includes the Dr. and this includes that ranting lady and this includes all the other passengers who were in some way aware this was going in an obviously bad direction.

    Humanity as a whole (and no I am not blaming everyone as there are a few exceptions) but for the large part... showed (once again) how humanity can lose and how it is the fault of examples of human expression that emit from...

    humanity.

    I saw no one in this fiasco "being the change I want to see."
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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