Trump - "Illegal" immigration - Sam's view

[Helene West]

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by turiya (here)
First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

The issue here is responsibility. It starts with personal responsibility. If you don’t believe you signed up for this life, it helps to pretend you do. Then if anything unpleasant happens to you, you have a chance of doing something about it instead of playing the victim. Responsibility for something does not necessarily mean guilt; in fact I would suggest that guilt is an unhealthy offshoot of responsibility for stuff that does happen, and victimhood is an unhealthy offshoot of avoiding guilt. It is unhealthy precisely because denying guilt usually means disclaiming responsibility. The healthy thing to do, I believe, is to relieve guilt precisely by accepting responsibility.

Collective responsibility is an extension of this process on various different levels, of which the nation is just one; it is the sharing of responsibility to relieve guilt. Given how many perpetrators are former victims, the idea is to stop this endless cycle by the originally guiltless victim taking responsibility for something that happened to them against their will, or something that happened to one of the collectives to which they belong before they personally were even born. For example, France has been a divided nation ever since the collaborationists and resistance fighters took different sides during World War II. Both Presidents Chirac and Hollande have made statements accepting that France (the French Republic) took responsibility for the actions of Vichy France (the French State as it called itself). This We of collective responsibility was recently brought into question by Marine Le Pen and her National Front party, coinciding with a denial of actual guilt for her own smaller collective, namely the far right going back in time. See this post:

Posted by araucaria (here)
The ‘dédiabolisation’ of the FN under Marine Le Pen is designed to counter people with longer memories or who know their history. You have to go all the way back to World War II. When she stated recently that the Vél d’Hiv Jewish deportation atrocity was not the work of France, represented by De Gaulle in exile in London, but by individual members of the Vichy government, she is rewriting history. Her party has never been Gaullist, but is in fact an offshoot of the pro-Nazi collaborationist community.
See this page and the whole site: http://www.gauchemip.org/spip.php?article15713

The difference in approach is between trying to heal and leaving to fester. The word ‘apology’ itself contains this ambivalence. To apologize normally means to express regret for something, and is usually met with reconciliation, or dedramatization. But an apology, or apologia, can also be a reasoned defence, explanation or excuse, expressing the opposite of regret. Those who might be bearing a burden refuse to do so because it is too much for them; collective responsibility means sharing the burden. The burden of US guilt is not only too much for the perpetrators, it is too much for the American people on their own; which is why all of humanity needs to share the burden of what one part of humanity has done. It may go all the way back to something as huge as destroying an entire planet. If so, nothing less than collective responsibility on the grandest scale is going to heal the damage. And it may extend even beyond humanity: maybe all of humanity needs to share the burden of what another (alien) part of sentient beinghood has done. It is truly a cosmic issue, but one that we can begin to address on our tiny level here and now, simply because ‘we are all in this together’.

No. Some of the thoughts are admirable but it’s overintellectualization.
What you are proposing necessitates not only a very high degree of ‘morality’ but for it to be actualized by all involved. That won’t ever happen. Wrong species.

On another thread it’s recently posted that artifacts indicate humans have been here for over 130,000 years. In 130,000 the piss poor condition of the planet is what humans have managed. Still idealists just don’t catch on. When standing in awe of the lack of social achievement of the species self-defense from other humans can be seen as a spiritual issue. I believe moral evolvement is far more individualistic than communal. You can hold up a high standard and hope many will try to attain it but it is far more likely that large numbers will filter the ideals through their self-interest, seek to impose their self-interest on others under the banner of the moral or ideal. I’m not an expert on agenda 21 or the communitarianism movement but ideals regarding communalism are being put out to citizens in various areas with the belief by some that the probable goal is a ploy for austerity for the many by the few.

I have a cousin who recently completed a drug rehab program. Now that she is getting her energy back she has a new idea and lofty goal for achievement every day. Her addictions counselor said to her, “Aim for the mediocre”!! I cracked up laughing. My cousin was insulted but I saw the wisdom in what she was told.

Humans love heroes. We never stop writing and making movies about them cause they achieve a level of morality that most of us never can or will. Humans have difficulty with common sense and practical solutions when in a group involving one single problem. But when idealism as the main focal point finds its way into political platforms I think of Marx, Mao, agenda 21, etc. and the inclination to enforce ideals. If you belong to the group that is being enforced on you will just turn around and manufacture another set of ideals to ‘free’ yourself from ideals which you will claim is oppression.
We need more boring pragmatists not idealists.

[marique3652]

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

[araucaria]

Posted by Helene West (here)
No. Some of the thoughts are admirable but it’s overintellectualization.
What you are proposing necessitates not only a very high degree of ‘morality’ but for it to be actualized by all involved. That won’t ever happen. Wrong species.

No. That’s underintellectualization. You have a totally static notion of species. Since the species in question started out with a reptilian brain, it has had two brain upgrades, not to mention countless other types of upgrade. I reckon another is in the pipeline. Your low degree of morality characterizes modern western civilization, but that is all: we know that so-called ‘primitive’ societies have done much better. It won’t ever happen? It already has done, lots of times. For a start, a return to native American standards would be a big step in the right direction.

We need more boring pragmatists not idealists.

Check out how many times I have quoted William James’s ‘Pragmatism’ on this forum: thirteen. Some idealist! You think I am not talking about personal and collective responsibility on the basis of a certain amount of personal experience? You’ve got to be joking. Solidarity works in moral matters just as plainly as it does coping with physical burdens. Altruism works, regardless of how many people have forgotten. I can only surmise that you are using notions of idealism and pragmatism in a manner that is foreign to my understanding. Check this out: Matthieu Ricard sounds like he ought to be an idealist – he’s a Buddhist monk – but he’s actually a pragmatist: ‘Altruism is a careful, detailed, hard-nosed assessment of what is needed both for individual happiness and for the welfare of the planet’ (my emphasis).

[TargeT]

Posted by marique3652 (here)

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims.

Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

We have had several mass shootings in the recent past that show us even a tiny influx of muslims DOES negatively effect the US, culturally and violently.

That statement is undeniably false, and already proven many times.

Lets go back just 10 years and see what we find: 43 attacks (most ended in fatalities or multiple fatalities) by muslims... we already know what happens when you mix oil and water cultures... and it's not good.

[Sierra]

Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.

Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

[abmqa]

Posted by Helene West (here)

Posted by abmqa (here)

Posted by Helene West (here)
]If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless.

You are absolutely correct with this statement

Posted by Helene West (here)
The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Posted by Helene West (here)
The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

Your comments started me thinking. In particular where you say the "white race" and "white country".

It made me wonder what does it mean to be "White"? But not only white in a "white society" but the social impacts that affect all of the people living in a "white country" or society.

The following is a perspective from a "white" person.

I'd be very interested in hearing your views.

By Robin DiAngelo

I AM white. I have spent years studying what it means to be white in a society that proclaims race meaningless, yet is deeply divided by race. This is what I have learned: Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture.

But mainstream sources — schools, textbooks, media and anecdotal evidence — don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need. Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

This illiteracy was evident in the debate about the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society production of “The Mikado” and its casting of non-Asian actors in 40 Japanese roles.

To understand the crux of white racial illiteracy illustrated by the debate, consider a typical computer user. The user is proficient and knows all the basics — Word, email, spreadsheets. But when the user has a technical problem and tries to explain it to the IT department, communication breaks down. The user gets defensive, feeling talked down to by tech support. Tech support gets frustrated because the user doesn’t know how computers actually work and can’t comprehend its instructions.

Like a nontechnical user trying to understand a technical problem, our racial illiteracy limits our ability to have meaningful conversations about race.

Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to racial prejudice and the personal actions that result. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.

Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

In the U.S., while individual whites might be against racism, they still benefit from their group’s control. Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won’t be one of them.

This distinction — between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power — is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.

While the following do not apply to every white person, they are well-documented white patterns and beliefs that make it difficult for white people to understand racism as a system:

• Segregation: Most whites live, grow, play, learn, love, work and die primarily in racial segregation. Yet, our society does not teach us to see this as a loss. Pause for a moment and consider the magnitude of this message: We lose nothing of value by not having cross-racial relationships. In fact, the whiter our schools and neighborhoods are, the more likely they are to be seen as “good.” This is an example of the relentless messages of white superiority that circulate all around us, shaping our identities and perspectives.

• Individualism: Whites are taught to see themselves as individuals, rather than as part of a racial group. It follows that we are racially objective and thus can represent the universal human experience, while people of color can only represent their race. Seeing ourselves as unracialized individuals, we take umbrage when generalizations are made about us as a group. This enables us to ignore systemic racial patterns.

• Focus on intentions over impact: We are taught that racism must be intentional and that only bad people commit it. Thus a common white reasoning in cross-racial conflicts is that as long as we are good people and didn’t intend to perpetuate racism, then our actions don’t count as racism. But racism doesn’t depend on conscious intent. In fact, much of racism is unconscious. Further, when we focus on intent we are essentially saying that the impact of our behavior on others is irrelevant.

• White fragility: In a white dominant society, challenges to a white worldview are uncommon. The racial status quo is comfortable for us. We haven’t had to develop the skills, perspectives, or humility that would help us engage constructively. As a result, we have very little tolerance for racial discomfort and respond poorly.

Putting this all together, you get the outcomes we see in “The Mikado” controversy.

When actors audition, they are most often judged by white people, using white standards for roles written by white writers and intended for white audiences. The outcomes of a specific audition are the cumulative result of this historic control.

Precisely because the system reflects white interests and worldview, white people will not see any of this in racial terms. They are confident that we can represent all of humanity — if no Asian actors apply, we don’t question casting efforts.

Because the egregious depictions of Asians in the opera are not intended as racist (and because so many whites enjoy these depictions), the racist impact is denied. When racism is pointed out, umbrage ensues.

The understanding of racism as a social system of unequal power is generally termed antiracism. An antiracism framework will help any white person become more racially literate and navigate most any racial conflict. We can begin by acknowledging ourselves as having a particular and necessarily limited perspective on race. That acknowledgment engenders humility rather than certitude.

Thinking in terms of structures and patterns, not individual acts or good and bad people, is foundational. Putting ourselves in situations that challenge and stretch our racial worldviews, while uncomfortable, builds our racial stamina.

Finally, we need to focus on impact rather than intent. On Aug. 18, the Seattle Repertory Theatre and the City of Seattle are holding a community dialogue about “The Mikado.” This is a great opportunity for whites to practice these skills.

Let me be clear. I don’t see myself or other whites as bad. Racism is a system that we did not create, but it’s one that we did inherit. We must take responsibility to see and challenge it both within and around us. The first step? Have some humility and listen.

Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness. Her latest book is “What Does it Mean to Be White? Developing White Racial Literacy.

Sorry about the misaligned quotes. I'm such a noob to this editing system

Hi Abmqa
Sorry for the delay in responding, you had asked my opinion on the Teacher/Agent above's mind control course. Why do I call her an agent? Many moons ago I was an activist in college. I belonged to socialist and feminist activities. We would worry about government Cointelpro provocateurs of any sort disrupting meetings and events. If you go to Wikipedia they will claim that the gov disbanded Cointelpro. If you believe that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Not only do I not believe cointelpro was disbanded but because of technology and the global village it has become huge, well funded and elaborate. There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease. My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil. I have alluded to why the white ruling class of the west needs to decimate caucasian culture on the road to their one world government and don't wish to go into it here. Suffice to say - IMHO - she is a paid agent. Thx

Hi Helene,

Apology not needed, I'm sure you have a life outside of PA and life keeps us busy. I will attempt to address your reply point by point.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that Ms DiAngelo is an agent of the FBI's counter intelligence program???

Do you have proof of this? Some evidence other then that you are aware of such programs?? I feel that if you are going to make such an accusation, you should at least provide some evidence. Sorry, just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

You say that you participated socialist and feminist activities. Did you know that you were part of a CIA funded operation. See link below:

http://www.rense.com/general21/hw.htm

Of course the FBI's COINTELPRO was never disbanded. It is very evident in the recent news which reported Trump's ties to Russia etc is being investigated. That is one example of the FBI conducting counter-intelligence. The FBI sees it as their job to infiltrate through covert ops if necessary, groups that they believe are against the status quo, or goes against the current govt doctrine. They will also infiltrate anti-war groups or any groups that are counter to current govt policy.

You make claims like:

There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.

Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?

My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:

The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

What group controls institutions?

Also, you appear to claim her words as poison?? Can you please be more specific?

I feel that Ms. DiAngelo made numerous cogent statements, none of which you addressed directly.

I would like to suggest that instead of attacking the messenger, you should try attacking the message.

IMO, it's easy to dismiss the person as ...fill in the blank..... instead of addressing the statements that make you uncomfortable.

I patiently look forward to your reply

Best regards

[TargeT]

Posted by abmqa (here)
You make claims like:

There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.

Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?

non-whites have courses to celebrate their heritage, "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad; want an example? It's in most universities now...


Whiteness Studies and it first started in the 1990's (so we are at 27 years of building bigotry)

Posted by abmqa (here)

My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:

The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Sounds like your both saying the same thing, you just don't see the racial bias as against whites (if you see it that way, her statement makes complete sense when paired with the above quote) perhaps it was a Freudian slip?

The only constant is change, and the pendulum ALWAYS swings back the other way... welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

[abmqa]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I'd like to report a personal story — just as it happened. If a camera had been following me, this is what it'd have recorded.

Many years ago, in the early 2000s, I was driving through Leicester, in England, which I didn't know very well. I did know it was the first city in the UK where the white British population was a minority, but I'd hardly spent any time there.

From Wikipedia:

Ethnicity (2011)[4]

• 45.1% White British
• 5.4% Other White
• 37.1% Asian
• 6.2% Black
• 3.5% Mixed Race
• 2.6% other

I needed a haircut, so I stopped and parked where I could see there was a hairdresser's. I walked in.

17 Pakistani faces, all sitting or working there, simultaneously turned and stared at me. I was shocked, and probably looked it. Almost instinctively, I turned round and walked out. It was a totally bizarre experience, and one that I'd been quite unprepared for.

Clearly, this was not a hairdresser's for white Englishmen. I was the one out of place there.

I did not have a haircut that day. I dwelt on the incident all the way home, which was quite some distance away.

Now, I am not a racist. I live in Ecuador, and love the local people. I prefer their company to most Americans I see here. I'd certainly rather live here than in England or the US.

One of my friends I'm closer to than almost anyone else is Puerto Rican. I spent my young childhood in Ghana and Nigeria, and I love the African people. I've visited Africa many times since then, and have traveled extensively there — also in India, Nepal and Thailand. I'm a global citizen, really. I don't even like English people, very much.

I spent a lot of time thinking about that brief incident in Leicester. There was something wrong. But it was nothing to do with color of skin, religion, or race.

It was about culture.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. It reminded me of when I was stationed at RAF Mildenhall in the UK, 1982 -1986 or so. I lived off base in the town of Bury St. Edmunds. I remember my first visit to a Pub. (short for public house) I walked in and everybody turned and looked/stared at me. It felt like I had walked into the twilight zone.

Guess what I did? I walked over to the bar and ordered a pint. I struck up a conversation with the Pub owner named Mac. (Mac was/is such a nice person) It turned out that he was very interested in military aircraft. There are groups of Brits that sit outside the base near the flight-line and write down tail numbers of the various airplanes coming and going (I thought some of them were spies, lol but most of them were just keen on military aircraft)

The Queens Head Pub, had a few "regulars" and in short time I became one of them. I made many friends. Mac taught me how to throw darts and before long I was consistently beating him. I got so proficient the Pub's dart team asked me to join them. I went on to be very successful only losing one match the entire time I was on the team. (losing a close match to a woman, gawd, the team teased me endlessly. I could tell you dart stories all day long)

I became close friends with Mac. I had my own Pint Mug on a special shelf for "regulars". After he closed the Pub for the night, a few select regulars could stay and could drink for free. I used to love "pulling" my own pint from the bar. If I got too intoxicated, (which happened more than once) I had a choice. Mac would have me stay in a guest room or else he would call a taxi for me.

I look back fondly on that time.

[TargeT]

Posted by abmqa (here)
I remember my first visit to a Pub. (short for public house) I walked in and everybody turned and looked/stared at me. It felt like I had walked into the twilight zone.

Guess what I did? I walked over to the bar and ordered a pint. I struck up a conversation

with about 4 exceptions, this is everywhere I visit to eat or drink for the last 4.5 years... haha, but I love meeting the new people and don't let the quasi-shocked looks set me back and after a few visits your just another person.

I think I represent an 8% minority on this island.

[abmqa]

[QUOTE=TargeT;1150694]

Posted by abmqa (here)
You make claims like:

There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.

Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?

non-whites have courses to celebrate their heritage, "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad; want an example? It's in most universities now...


Whiteness Studies

and it first started in the 1990's (so we are at 27 years of building bigotry)

Wrong!! Try over 227 years of building bigotry and racism. Your bias is clearly shown by this statement. SMH

Posted by abmqa (here)

My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:

The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Sounds like your both saying the same thing, you just don't see the racial bias as against whites (if you see it that way, her statement makes complete sense when paired with the above quote) perhaps it was a Freudian slip?

The only constant is change, and the pendulum ALWAYS swings back the other way... welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

Target - is your name Helene? This post was addressed to her. I'm sure Helene can answer for herself. Although you are free to pipe in, why not reply to post #30 in this thread, which is addressed to you???

We are not saying the same thing. I understood Helene to say that this Agent?? teacher will not point the criticism at those who control the system. While the referenced statement is exactly where Ms DiAngelo places the blame. Also, I asked for proof that Ms DiAngelo is an agent for the FBI. You, like Helene, would rather attack the messenger instead of the message.

When you say the "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad are you referring to "American History"? I have taken those same classes and as an American I have never felt "guilt" or felt "bad. History is history, I cannot change what happened in the past. I can learn from it though.

One other thing. In college, courses are not mandatory, they are available. In primary and high school students have no choice.

welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

No thanks, I have experienced enough bigotry and racism in my life. I really don't need to see it here in order to recognize it.

[Helene West]

Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

[AutumnW]

Posted by marique3652 (here)

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

My 'opinion' is that you have come to the forum to whip up anti-Muslim sentiment. I don't believe the story about the young girl. Sorry. I know atrocities happen amd I know Arab countries are backwards -- in large part due to the Israeli mandate that they be bombed back to the Stone Age when they reach a certain level of sophistication and advancement.

I have had experience with Muslims and hate the way they treat women, cousin marriage, etc...but absolutely feel you are trolling here and that there is (next to) zero threat to native born Americans from immigrants from Arab countries. They are vastly outnumbered.

Btw, my brother in law converted to Islam, so really...I do know something about this issue. Did I like his mullahs? No, I couldn't stand them. But I never felt they were a threat to me or anybody else. They caused our family great grief, though.

[AutumnW]

Posted by Sierra (here)
Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.

Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I don't think properly vetted Arab immigrants are an existential threat and as it isn't easy to get into the U.S, they probably are vetted pretty thoroughly. And obviously those born in America are no threat.

They are much more likely to be UNDER threat in the U.S with all the pig headed bigotry, newly coined as 'nationalism.'

[marique3652]

Posted by Sierra (here)
Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.

Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I think I may have not understood what Autumn was saying, I did not pick up the nuance that she was referring to Muslims who have grown up in the US and are citizens. The misplaced adjective tripped me up and so I misinterpreted that part of it. In that case I still disagree that there is ZERO threat, but I think that the US residing Muslim citizens are not as imminent a threat, the Muslims that I feel may pose a threat are the ones coming into the country that come in illegally and chose not to assimilate into our culture and create violence and exhibit a behavior of defiance and ones desiring domination.

I do tend to agree somewhat with Sierra that Muslim citizens here are threatened and victims of violence often as well.

I found an interesting link with lots of statistic worth perusing, but cannot at all verify if it is a realistic picture or one that is meant to create a conclusion that may or may not be correct. Here is the link for all interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/ar...y-the-numbers/

[abmqa]

Posted by Helene West (here)
Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

Hi Helene - thank you kindly for your reply.

I'll make this post brief. Since you apparently refuse to address Ms DiAngelo's many point's and would rather attack her (she is a FBI Agent Whore now??)

I see no point in us continuing this debate. The fact that racism and bigotry exists in the world today IMO is worth debating.

However, personal attacks and insinuations as you have made are not worthy IMO, as nothing can be learned or gained by engaging in such activities.

I was hoping that we could debate the many IMO, valid points that Ms DiAngelo has made. However, you would rather attack her, the person.

Not me. I choose to not debase myself further by replying to posts like yours where the message is ignored and personal attacks are elevated.

It is clear to me that we hold very different moral values, and I refuse to change mine in order to engage you in debate.

Best regards

[Helene West]

Posted by abmqa (here)

Posted by Helene West (here)
Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

Hi Helene - thank you kindly for your reply.

I'll make this post brief. Since you apparently refuse to address Ms DiAngelo's many point's and would rather attack her (she is a FBI Agent Whore now??)

I see no point in us continuing this debate. The fact that racism and bigotry exists in the world today IMO is worth debating.

However, personal attacks and insinuations as you have made are not worthy IMO, as nothing can be learned or gained by engaging in such activities.

I was hoping that we could debate the many IMO, valid points that Ms DiAngelo has made. However, you would rather attack her, the person.

Not me. I choose to not debase myself further by replying to posts like yours where the message is ignored and personal attacks are elevated.

It is clear to me that we hold very different moral values, and I refuse to change mine in order to engage you in debate.

Best regards

No problem, thx

[Sierra]

Helene,

I'm baffled by this white guilt thing. I've never heard about it until recently from a few members here. Given I grew up in a diverse urban community, I should have.

You may not like what I have to say, and I'm sorry for that, but when only a few people on Avalon talk about this white guilt thing, AND they are the same few people dismissive of the elephant in the room (so to speak) that racism does not exist, that horrific events have not happened, that we are not dealing with the generational fallout of a slaver and slave culture... I have to say, then in that case, if one truly believes "nothing happened", how can there be white guilt?

So I'm not buying the white guilt meme. It sounds to me like a code for recognition that here is a fellow soul that dismisses the past, and rewrites the present. If one dismisses the past, calls history false, uses it in service of the normalization of hatred (not speaking of you here, Helene) it begins to sound more like resentment.

The topic of racism, institutionalized hatred, is so huge, and the tentacles of deadly toxicity run everywhere.

Change of Subject:

Very hard to stay on topic, isn't it?

However, lol, this is Sam's thread, so I offer the following to the question he has asked us twice.

Sam, no, I'm not in favor of globalization. I'd hate to see all the lovely ethnic cultures I've experienced, vanish. I also think those whose culture is vanishing at the behest of the globalists are going to get pissed off, and then it will be, "Here we go again."

But let's imagine all cultures are the same, we all eat bologna and white bread, no one knows anything different the world over. It STILL won't work because if all authority is centralized, all beings everywhere, except those located at the global seat of government, will be screwed.

A ruler, ruling from a distance, cannot get it right.. I look at Russia, during their ever new, ever changing "five year plans", and the mess they made of it. Factories cranking out goods no one wanted or needed, constant, unending "1984" programming to keep the masses in line, KGB ready to bust your door down at night if you didn't, and all the goodies going to the "globalistic" state party communists in Moscow, because they were willing to become handlers, controllers of the general population, to get the goods.

It's an agenda of the elite, in my humble opinion.

[abmqa]

Posted by marique3652 (here)

Posted by Sierra (here)
Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.

Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I think I may have not understood what Autumn was saying, I did not pick up the nuance that she was referring to Muslims who have grown up in the US and are citizens. The misplaced adjective tripped me up and so I misinterpreted that part of it. In that case I still disagree that there is ZERO threat, but I think that the US residing Muslim citizens are not as imminent a threat, the Muslims that I feel may pose a threat are the ones coming into the country that come in illegally and chose not to assimilate into our culture and create violence and exhibit a behavior of defiance and ones desiring domination.

I do tend to agree somewhat with Sierra that Muslim citizens here are threatened and victims of violence often as well.

I found an interesting link with lots of statistic worth perusing, but cannot at all verify if it is a realistic picture or one that is meant to create a conclusion that may or may not be correct. Here is the link for all interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/ar...y-the-numbers/

Hi Marique,

I just wanted to relate to you something I witnessed. Shortly after 9-11, I went to Baskin Robbins for ice cream. As I approached the store there was a family sitting outside at a table having ice cream. I'm not sure if they were Muslims they looked to be from India - just guessing. Anyway as they sat there, they all had miniature US flags that they would wave every now and then. It struck me that they were afraid and were waving the US flags in order to show US patriotism so as not to get attacked. They were afraid because they looked similar to those who supposedly carried out the attacks on 9-11.

As I reflected on this, I thought how sad it is to have to live in fear, just because you look different.

[Helene West]

Posted by Sierra (here)
Helene,

I'm baffled by this white guilt thing. I've never heard about it until recently from a few members here. Given I grew up in a diverse urban community, I should have.

You may not like what I have to say, and I'm sorry for that, but when only a few people on Avalon talk about this white guilt thing, AND they are the same few people dismissive of the elephant in the room (so to speak) that racism does not exist, that horrific events have not happened, that we are not dealing with the generational fallout of a slaver and slave culture... I have to say, then in that case, if one truly believes "nothing happened", how can there be white guilt?

So I'm not buying the white guilt meme. It sounds to me like a code for recognition that here is a fellow soul that dismisses the past, and rewrites the present. If one dismisses the past, calls history false, uses it in service of the normalization of hatred (not speaking of you here, Helene) it begins to sound more like resentment.

The topic of racism, institutionalized hatred, is so huge, and the tentacles of deadly toxicity run everywhere.

Change of Subject:

Very hard to stay on topic, isn't it?

However, lol, this is Sam's thread, so I offer the following to the question he has asked us twice.

Sam, no, I'm not in favor of globalization. I'd hate to see all the lovely ethnic cultures I've experienced, vanish. I also think those whose culture is vanishing at the behest of the globalists are going to get pissed off, and then it will be, "Here we go again."

But let's imagine all cultures are the same, we all eat bologna and white bread, no one knows anything different the world over. It STILL won't work because if all authority is centralized, all beings everywhere, except those located at the global seat of government, will be screwed.

A ruler, ruling from a distance, cannot get it right.. I look at Russia, during their unending "five year plans", and the mess they made of it. Factories cranking out goods no one wanted or needed, constant, unending "1984" programming to keep the masses in line, KGB ready to bust your door down at night if you didn't, and all the goodies going to the "globalistic" state party communists in Moscow, because they were willing to become handlers, controllers of the general population, to get the goods.

It's an agenda of the elite, in my humble opinion.

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

[Sierra]

Posted by Helene West (here)
You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

Not voting, not looking for votes, just responding in service of truth, as I see it (as you are).