+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 31 of 31

Thread: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

  1. Link to Post #21
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    34,425
    Thanks
    211,625
    Thanked 459,754 times in 32,946 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong here)....Hancock doesn't give much credence to ET's and the ancient alien theory. Is this true??
    I believe he just says it's not necessary to invoke aliens as an explanation for some of the mysteries of ancient civilizations. Re other aspects of the ET phenomenon, I don't think he really goes there that much, and sticks to his own specialty. But do correct me if I'm wrong, too.

    (Most interestingly, though, I heard from Daniel Liszt, who knows Hancock personally, that Graham had saluted me for my "Truth about Corey Goode" article.)

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Atlas (21st May 2017), Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017), Shannon (22nd May 2017), Spellbound (20th May 2017)

  3. Link to Post #22
    UK Avalon Member Post-Structuralist Comet's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th July 2016
    Age
    36
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 53 times in 9 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    It beats me why many (but not all) skeptics have to be nasty, snide people. That's just not needed, and never serves them well.
    My best (loose) guess is that some skeptics are prominent partly because other skeptics find them entertaining, and being nasty and snide about an out-group is often seen as entertaining. Which sucks. Being nasty and snide also goes hand in hand with the arrogance required to think that you can show people are wrong just by out thinking them, rather than through careful and patient examination of evidence (e.g. Shermer talking about archaeology when, to my knowledge, he has never studied it in any depth). Speaking as someone who has a (very broadly!) similar world view to lots of people who call themselves skeptics, I find the whole movement a bit baffling.
    Last edited by Post-Structuralist Comet; 20th May 2017 at 15:29.

  4. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Post-Structuralist Comet For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (20th May 2017), Ewan (20th May 2017), Jantje (22nd May 2017), Mark (Star Mariner) (20th May 2017), Shannon (22nd May 2017), Spellbound (20th May 2017), Wind (20th May 2017)

  5. Link to Post #23
    Canada Avalon Member CurEus's Avatar
    Join Date
    2nd June 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    856
    Thanks
    1,207
    Thanked 5,035 times in 786 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    I've finally finished watching the entire epidsode.

    Although Michael Shermer was initially quite dismissive and openly hostile at times he did eventually settle down AND as the author of the upcoming published piece was on air Shermenr very clearly stated that the author would have to rewrite his piece in several key areas and correct inaccuracies before Shermer would publish it. He complimented Hankcock and Carlson towards the end on their research and seemed satisfied that his own bias was getting in the way of his carefully considering evidence that was presented.

    Harnock and Carlson are actually quite good researchers and in this particular area have copious amounts of high quality academic research to support their assertions. Hancock was at times a bit too personally vested in refuting personal attacks against himself but then again personal attacks in academia are very much nothing new and par for the course. Bit of a dubious compliment at best.....well at least they know you exist Mr. Hancock!

    Shermer was correct in noting that change comes VERY slowly or quite suddenly in academia but correlations are not causations. Based on the research presented and supported on air with one of the authors of highly important published research I tend to think he should have weighted the plausibility of multiple catastrophic impact events during the Younger Dryas as being probable instead of unlikely. Most everyone agrees that "dating" methods are imprecise at best.

    Hancock too was correct in observing the very often academicws will just reject everything without giving it a fair assessment.

    As it relates to Atlantis....it nearly veered out of control but credibility was reasserted when Hankcock established that "Atlantis" is a concept of any number of pre-flood civilizations high highly developed cultures ( writing, art, agriculture, metal work etc) i am not sitisfied that Shermer buys into that but accepts that Goblecki Tepi as an anomaly for "hunter/gatherers" producing high culture in the span of years not centuries.....someone had to transfer some very serious skills in a very short time.

    Bit disappointed with all participants relating to Michael Cremo's work with Forbidden Archaeology. Yes......he does produce some FANTASTIC claims in his work as an "appendix" of the unexplained and they are not part of his overall thesis about extreme human antiquity. They all fail to grasp that geology and geological dating of material is predicated on multi million year timelines for rock, coal and other strata formation.........which can literally happen overnight with the right conditions. Mega tsunamis, floods and massive pressure. ( like 3 KM of ice?) )

    So yes.........a copper teapot can be found in 50 million year old "coal" deposits. because the coal deposit is likely only 25,000 years old. It ties into Hankcock and Carlson's catasprohism and human amnesia hypothesis.

    I enjoyed the debate at times, and I believe we would all benefit from more of them.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to CurEus For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (20th May 2017), earthdreamer (23rd May 2017), Ewan (20th May 2017), Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017), Jantje (22nd May 2017), Post-Structuralist Comet (20th May 2017), Shannon (22nd May 2017)

  7. Link to Post #24
    Canada Avalon Member Spellbound's Avatar
    Join Date
    21st December 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    55
    Posts
    1,113
    Thanks
    6,324
    Thanked 7,259 times in 1,040 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong here)....Hancock doesn't give much credence to ET's and the ancient alien theory. Is this true??
    I believe he just says it's not necessary to invoke aliens as an explanation for some of the mysteries of ancient civilizations. Re other aspects of the ET phenomenon, I don't think he really goes there that much, and sticks to his own specialty. But do correct me if I'm wrong, too.

    (Most interestingly, though, I heard from Daniel Liszt, who knows Hancock personally, that Graham had saluted me for my "Truth about Corey Goode" article.)
    Well put, Bill. That being said, does Hancock believe in ET's in general??

    Dave - Toronto

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Spellbound For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (20th May 2017), Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017)

  9. Link to Post #25
    Administrator Mark (Star Mariner)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    15th November 2011
    Language
    English
    Posts
    4,436
    Thanks
    29,444
    Thanked 35,817 times in 4,349 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by CurEus (here)
    So yes.........a copper teapot can be found in 50 million year old "coal" deposits. because the coal deposit is likely only 25,000 years old. It ties into Hankcock and Carlson's catasprohism and human amnesia hypothesis.
    Is that correct? I'm not so sure that's accurate, unless one held a Creationist view of the earth, its age and processes. As far as I am aware, it takes not just pressure for coal to form, but time - a lot of time, millions of years for compressed vegetable matter to turn into rock, ie coal.

    If there is science to suggest otherwise, that coal can be formed much more quickly, like 25,000 years, I'd be more than happy to change that view.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Mark (Star Mariner) For This Post:

    Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017)

  11. Link to Post #26
    Finland Avalon Member Wind's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th September 2011
    Location
    A dream called Life
    Age
    33
    Posts
    7,888
    Thanks
    88,326
    Thanked 48,968 times in 7,673 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    Well put, Bill. That being said, does Hancock believe in ET's in general??

    Dave - Toronto
    See these:

    https://grahamhancock.com/ancient-al...-civilization/
    https://www.facebook.com/Author.Grah...52166073937354
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wind For This Post:

    Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017), Spellbound (20th May 2017)

  13. Link to Post #27
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th February 2015
    Location
    Ireland
    Age
    62
    Posts
    2,449
    Thanks
    53,056
    Thanked 19,093 times in 2,403 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    A miniscule slice of data to show those that question the current paradigm, (any paradigm), are the brave, and necessary, explorers. Those (skeptics) that set themselves up as the defenders of the established order do humanity a disservice, imo.

    All that follows has been digested from the first chapter of Uriel's Machine by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. I have avoided reproducing their text, (bar one exception immediately below), and instead concentrated on quotes from other sources they reproduce themselves.

    I have also left out references to Neanderthal man as this subject is regarding modern man and his history. This paragraph is the exception...

    Some of the earliest know remains of modern man were found in a cave at Qafzeh, Just a stones throw from the town centre of Nazareth. This cave containes the remains of both Neanderthals and modern man, but it is the sequence of layers of earth and the order of the fossilized skeletons that is so fascinating. Our direct ancestors were found at the deepest levels whilst the Neanderthals were found much higher up, proving beyond doubt that 'modern man' was there tens of thousands of years ahead of our fellow hominids.

    Further, for reasons of brevity, I have not attempted to lead into, or out from, the selected quotes used. There is far more left unsaid from everything I have neglected to mention. I will be trying to track down some of these books that have been quoted from.

    --

    Renfrew, Colin: Before Civilization, Penguin, 1978

    Professor of Archeology, Cambridge University

    Archaeologists all over the world have realised that much of prehistory, as written in the existing text books, is inadequate. Some of it is quite simply wrong...

    --

    Geneticist Wesley Brown, Howard Goodman Laboratory, University of California

    Created the mDNA family tree that traced all of human ancestry to a 'Mitochondrial Eve' between 180,000 and 360,000 years ago.

    --

    Shreeve, James: The Neanderthal Enigma, William Morrow & Co., 1995

    Anthropoligist James Shreeve..

    The fact is, human beings - modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens - are behaviourally far, far away from being 'just another animal'. The mystery is where, why and how the change took place.There are no answers to be found in the vast bulk of hominid time on the planet...An 'all-important trasition', did occur but it happened so close to the current moment that we are still reeling from it. Somewhere in the vestibule of history, just before we started keeping records on ourselves, something happened that turned a passably precocious animal into a human being.

    --

    Wooley, L: Ur of the Chaldees, Seven years of Excavation, Pelican, 1929

    There is nothing to show to what race the first inhabitants of Mesopotamia belonged....At a date which we cannot fix, people of a new race made their way into the valley, coming, whence we do not know, and settled down side by side with the old inhabitants. These were the Sumerians...The Sumerians believed that they came into the country with their civilization already formed, bringing with them the knowledge of agriculture , of working in metal, of the art of writing-'since then,' said they, 'no new inventions have been made' - and if, as our excavations seem to show, there is a good deal of truth in that tradition...later research may well discover...where the ancestors of our Sumerians developed the first real civilization.

    --

    Marshack, A: The Roots of Civilisation, McGraw Hill, 1972

    Searching through the historical record for the origins of the evolved civilizations, I was disturbed by the series of 'suddenlies'. Science...had suddenly begun with the Greeks...bits of near science, mathematics and astronomy had suddenly appeared among the mesopotamians, the Egyption, the early Chinese. Civilization itself had appeared suddenly with the cuneiform of Mesopotamia and the hieroglyphs of the Egyptians; agriculture...had apparently begun suddenly...

    --

    I underlined one date above to show that we are approaching 100 years since it was mentioned that people arrived from elsewhere with knowledge to share.

    This was a point of resistance from the skeptics in the discussed podcast if I recall clearly.

    Later edit: I also get the impression that many of this community here on Avalon would be more appropriately labelled skeptics. That which is presented as skepticism is all too often more akin to a closed-mind defending a held position as sacrosanct.
    Last edited by Ewan; 20th May 2017 at 17:45.

  14. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Ewan For This Post:

    7alon (21st May 2017), Bill Ryan (20th May 2017), Foxie Loxie (20th May 2017), Mark (Star Mariner) (21st May 2017), Shannon (22nd May 2017), StandingWave (20th May 2017), Wind (20th May 2017)

  15. Link to Post #28
    Australia Avalon Member 7alon's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th August 2016
    Location
    Earth
    Age
    38
    Posts
    549
    Thanks
    2,634
    Thanked 3,568 times in 524 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Yes, Shermer I've seen in action many times before...Sometimes I just don't get sceptics.
    Right. I even watched Shermer's 15 minute TED talk a couple of days ago, called Why People Believe Weird Things. This was also the title of his book.
    I was genuinely hoping for some insights. I too sometimes ask this question!

    Instead, he was snarky and clever-clever, playing for cheap audience laughs. He wasted an opportunity. It beats me why many (but not all) skeptics have to be nasty, snide people. That's just not needed, and never serves them well.
    Glad I'm not the only one who recognises this. I have to skip almost every moment on the JRE podcast when the camera turns to Shermer. I'm sorry guys, he's just too annoying lol.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to 7alon For This Post:

    Foxie Loxie (22nd May 2017)

  17. Link to Post #29
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    24th June 2013
    Language
    English
    Posts
    1,984
    Thanks
    2,727
    Thanked 6,947 times in 1,689 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    The Hopi Indians say that Earth has been impacted many times by a civilization-ending flood. Since this would be coming from space, it literally would be a river of ice. My idea is that when the huge water planet between Mars and Jupiter exploded, long streams of water entered space in many directions. We were apparently closer to the sun than we are now or at least had a shorter year then, 360 days. I believe that one of these space-floods intersected with Earth and formed ice floating in FREE FALL around the planet, resulting in a hot-house atmosphere where, according to the Bible version of Eden, a mist watered the land. It never rained. Then, along comes another intersection with space ice or rocks or even Alien explosion of a device knocking a part of the orbit in Free Fall out of equilibrium and gradually, the whole thing comes down first as rain, as in Genesis, and at the Poles it may have come down in solid sheets of ice encasing the animals still chewing buttercups and exposing the rest of Earth to the sudden cold of space...flash freezing. Massive ice fall from the sky as well as whatever brought it down would have washed oceans out of their beds. Now, if the Hopi are correct, we may expect other intersections with these orbiting oceans of ice from the exploded water planet. I hope we know how to move Earth out of the way by then.

    On the discussion about Gobekli Tepe, an interview on Project Camelot dot org, mentioned that at the very deep levels of this place there is alien activity and a Stargate with comings and goings of harmful creatures. My guess is that is why it was covered over with earth, to stop these things from coming up to the surface and doing harm to the surface inhabitants.

    Whether it was Kerry's interview with Mark Richards or another interview, it was mentioned that the Cambodian site of Angkor Watt is the location of a Stargate and that large spiders the size of a Volkswagon Beetle Car, wiped out more than one million inhabitants is a few hours. They went on to state that the war in Cambodia and Viet Nam and Agent Orange was to wipe out these creatures. Having heard so many other stories about the real reason for those wars, I do not know what to make of this information; but I throw it out there for further consideration about the danger of Stargates at stable and aligned geographic locations such as Gobekli Tepe, North-South, etc. There is danger of passing into parallel realities through Stargates and finding yourself dwarfed by their insect world or in the presence of man-eating giants such as those who came through the Arizona Stargate and began eating the Indians.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to amor For This Post:

    Foxie Loxie (22nd May 2017)

  19. Link to Post #30
    France On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,763
    Thanks
    60,315
    Thanked 95,902 times in 15,481 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Why Science Should Cherish Its Rebels

    by Graham Hancock
    Published 30th April 2017

    Graham Hancock with catastrophist theorist Randall Carlson at Dry Falls -- a fossilised waterfall of enormous size cut by the waters of Bretz's flood and left as we see it now when the flood had run its course. Photo by Santha Faiia.

    There is fierce disagreement amongst mainstream scientists – a disagreement that also divides alternative researchers – around what happened to the Earth, and to humanity, in the closing millennia of the last Ice Age between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. Marked by intense cold, global floods and extinctions of animal species, this 1200-year interval is known to geologists as the Younger Dryas. Many of the leading investigators are convinced the agent of the mysterious earth changes, and of the extinctions, was a comet that the struck the North American ice cap with globally cataclysmic effects. But their “Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis” is still regarded as controversial by others who have sought, more than once in the scientific literature, to declare it “disproved” only to be confronted by compelling new evidence that further strengthens the case. In this article, Graham Hancock shows how scientists consistently suppress and marginalise new knowledge that conflicts with established positions and argues that a paradigm shift is underway – a shift that will require us to reconsider everything we’ve been taught about the peopling of the Americas and about the very origins of civilization.

    In March 2017 theNational Geographic Society and the Smithsonian Institution, those bastions of scientific orthodoxy, highlighted the remarkable achievements of two scientific rebels, one retired and the other deceased, confessing that multiple injustices had been done to both and that the “toxic” way in which they had been treated by their professional colleagues had “poisoned” scientific progress.

    In the case of The Smithsonian the focus was on Canadian archaeologist Jacques Cinq-Mars, ostracised in the 1990’s because his excavations at Bluefish Caves in the Yukon “directly challenged mainstream thinking” with evidence that the peopling of the Americas had begun many thousands of years earlier than had previously been thought.1

    We will have more to say about the case of Dr Cinq-Mars in the second half of this article.

    Meanwhile for National Geographic the rebel of choice in 2017 was US geologist J. Harlen Bretz, condemned to pariah status in the 1920’s for daring to propose that a gigantic flood had scoured the “scabland” of America’s Pacific Northwest near the end of the last Ice Age.2 It was an idea that contradicted the consensus view of scientists at the time that geological transitions were always slow and gradual – a view in which there was no place for sudden and cataclysmic earth changes.

    Bretz died in 1981, soon after Cinq-Mars began his paradigm-busting excavations in the Yukon. The two men did not know one another and worked in entirely different fields. What they have in common, however, and the reason that the mainstream science press which once attacked them now sings their praises, is that both spent decades being vilified by their scientific peers but were ultimately proved right.

    Here is Bretz, writing in 1928 after one of his field trips across Washington State in the Pacific Northwest of the US:
    “No one with an eye for landforms can cross eastern Washington in daylight without encountering and being impressed by the ‘”scabland’.” Like great scars marring the otherwise fair face of the plateau are these elongated tracts of bare, or nearly bare, black rock carved into mazes of buttes and canyons. Everybody on the plateau knows scabland. It interrupts the wheat lands, parcelling them out into hill tracts less than 40 acres to more than 40 square miles in extent. One can neither reach them nor depart from them without crossing some part of the ramifying scabland. Aside from affording a scanty pasturage, scabland is almost without value. The popular name is an expressive metaphor. The scablands are wounds only partially healed – great wounds in the epidermis of soil with which Nature protects the underlying rock.

    “With eyes only a few feet above the ground the observer today must travel back and forth repeatedly and must record his observations mentally, photographically, by sketch and by map before he can form anything approaching a complete picture. Yet long before the paper bearing these words has yellowed, the average observer, looking down from the air as he crosses the region, will see almost at a glance the picture here drawn by piecing together the ground-level observations of months of work. The region is unique: let the observer take the wings of the morning to the uttermost parts of the earth: he will nowhere find its likeness.”3
    By 1928 Bretz was an experienced and highly credentialed field geologist. Born in 1882, he’d started his career as a high school biology teacher in Seattle but spent most of his spare time exploring the geology of Puget Sound. Although he didn’t have a geology degree at the time, he succeeded in getting several articles on his findings published in scientific journals.4 In 1911 he enrolled at the University of Chicago to pursue a doctorate in geology. He graduated summa cum laude in 1913 and immediately thereafter returned to Seattle where he accepted a position as assistant professor of geology at the University of Washington.5 He had difficulties with the attitudes of other teaching staff there (he later described them as “stick-in-the-muds”6) and by 1914 he was back at the University of Chicago, initially as an instructor but soon afterward as an assistant professor.7



    The first field trip Bretz made to the scabland of eastern Washington was in 1922. By this point, as a result of his earlier work, he was fully informed about the Ice Age in all its dimensions and more aware than most other geologists that immense ice sheets up to two miles deep, had covered North America for the best part of 100,000 years until the ice melted dramatically somewhere between 15,000 and 11,000 years ago. Thus when he saw huge numbers of erratics – giant boulders that didn’t belong naturally in the area but had clearly been brought in from elsewhere – he was inclined to assume that they might have travelled here in icebergs carried on some great glacial flood. This impression was strengthened when he explored Grand Coulee and Moses Coulee – gigantic channels gouged deeply in the earth – and visited the Quincy Basin at the southern end of Grand Coulee where he found the whole 600-square-mile depression filled up to a depth of 400 feet with small particles of basalt debris. He couldn’t help but wonder, “where had all the debris come from, and when?”8 Again the answer that presented itself to him was a flood.

    Bretz was back in the Scablands in 1923 for three months of exploration and it seems to have been during this field trip that his later views – namely that “some spectacular hydrological event . . . had begun in this region, then abruptly stopped”,’ really began to take shape.9

    In the November-December 1923 issue of the Journal of Geology Bretz published a paper summarizing his findings. To understand the somewhat defensive tone of the paper it is necessary to keep in mind the prevailing geological doctrine of the time, the principle known as “uniformitarianism”. This is the assumption that existing processes, acting as at present, are sufficient to account for all geological changes. Integral to it is the parallel assumption of gradualism, namely that “the present is the key to the past” and that the rate of change observable today is an accurate guide to rates of change that prevailed in the past.

    Such ideas, which had acquired the status of unchallengeable truth by the 1920’s, had themselves arisen from the needful – indeed essential – overthrow of the old religious belief in creationism and the notion that God whimsically intervened in the earth’s history by ordaining cataclysms such as the Biblical Flood. In righteous opposition to these thoughts of supernatural creation and destruction, uniformitarianism seemed a profoundly rational response that saw only the forces of nature at work upon the earth over periods of millions, or indeed billions of years.

    ‘Mountains had not been built overnight, but had risen slowly, imperceptibly over time. Likewise had fantastic geological features such as the Grand Canyon been eroded by the flow of rivers over many millions of years.’10

    Bretz was an eminently rational man, and certainly no religious dogmatist, yet, as his biographer John Soennichsen notes, “while hiking through the hot, dry, ragged world of the Scablands, everything he had seen pointed not to a slow, uniform change over time but to a catastrophe, a sudden release of colossal quantities of water that had quickly washed away the loessial topsoil and then carved deeply into the basalt rock beneath.”11

    The problem was – where had all this water come from? It was well understood that at the margin of the north American ice sheets there must have been some melting – as one indeed sees at the edges of all glaciers today. But such melting could hardly explain the magnitude of the erosive changes that were visible in the field. As Bretz noted in his 1923 paper:
    “The writer confesses that during ten weeks of study of the region, each newly examined scabland tract reawakened a feeling of amazement that such huge streams could take origin from such small marginal tracts of an ice sheet, or that such an enormous amount of erosion, despite high gradients, could have resulted in the very brief times these streams existed. Not River Warren, nor the Chicago outlet, not the Mowhawk channel, nor even Niagara Falls and Gorge itself approach the proportions of some of these scabland tracts and their canyons. From one of these canyons alone [Upper Grand Coulee] 10 cubic miles of basalt was eroded by its glacial stream.”’12
    Concluding the paper, and moving towards the profoundly heretical and anti-uniformitarian idea that would soon get him into a great deal of trouble, namely that a single cataclysmic flood sustained only for a very short period had been responsible for all the devastation he had witnessed, Bretz wrote:
    “Fully 3,000 square miles of the Columbia plateau were swept by the glacial flood, and the loess and silt cover removed. More than 2,000 square miles of this area were left as bare, eroded, rock-cut channel floors, now the scablands, and nearly 1,000 square miles carry gravel deposits derived from the eroded basalt. It was a debacle which swept the Columbia Plateau.”’13
    In other words, as Bretz’s biographer summarizes, the geologist now believed that the features he had documented “could only have been created by a flood of unimaginable proportions, possibly the largest flood in the history of the world”.’14





    Photos by Santha Faiia. This colossal glacial erratic, now perched high up on the valley side above the town of Wenatchee, Washington state, was brought here in an iceberg the size of an oil tanker carried on a raging flood hundreds of feet deep.

    Pariah
    The reaction of the geological establishment was one of stunned, embarrassed silence. To have strayed so far from the doctrine of uniformitarianism could only mean that Bretz must have gone mad. David Alt, Professor Emeritus of Geology at the University of Montana, describes one of the lectures that Bretz gave in which he expounded on the ideas in his 1923 paper:
    “The geologists . . . were aghast in the same way that a roomful of physicists would be upon hearing a colleague explain how he had made a perpetual motion machine out of old popsicle sticks. Physicists had all learned very early of the futility of perpetual motion machines, and no properly educated geologist was supposed to traffic in catastrophes of any sort.’15

    Alt describes an old professor of his own undergraduate days who had been a student sitting in the audience when Bretz read his 1923 paper. It seems the professor did a hilarious impersonation of Bretz “pounding on the podium with both fists and stomping on the floor as he used vivid language and gestures to convey his idea of a catastrophic flood to his horrified audience.”16
    Quite apart from the theatricals, the geologists were shocked to hear Bretz invoke:
    “a sudden catastrophe to explain the Scablands of eastern Washington. In their view this was a reversion to the unscientific thinking of some 125 years before. To this day, most geologists consider it nothing less than heresy to invoke a catastrophic explanation for a geologic event. So Bretz stepped off the edge of a very long limb when he suggested that a great flood had eroded the Scablands . . . . [It made] him a pariah among geologists, an outcast from the politer precincts of society.”’17
    The outcast did not give up, however. On the contrary, he doggedly continued with his research, bringing down ever more controversy on his own head in the process but believing that the facts, ultimately, would vindicate him.

    The crunch came on 12 January 1927 when Bretz was ambushed by a lynch mob of his colleagues at a lecture he’d been invited to give to the Geological Society of Washington in the Cosmos Club, Washington DC. Bretz was by now calling “his” flood the “Spokane Flood” (after the town of Spokane) and liked to refer to the ice sheet from which it had emerged as the “Spokane ice sheet” (neither term is used today but Bretz’s Spokane ice sheet was, effectively the southern part of that great late Pleistocene ice sheet now known as the “Cordilleran”). He believed that large parts of it must have melted with extraordinary rapidity, because “the volume of water was very great, almost incredibly great . . .… In spite of high gradients to draw it off, the pre-existing valleys first entered were inadequate to carry it all, and the flood spread widely in a complicated group of anastomosing routes.”’18

    W.C. Alden, then the Chief of Pleistocene Geology with the profoundly conservative US Geological Survey, objected to “the idea that all the channels must have been developed simultaneously in a very short time” and took great offence at “the tremendous amount of water” postulated by Bretz.19 “It seems to me impossible,” Alden protested, “that such part of the great ice fields as would have drained across the Columbia Plateau could, under any conditions, have yielded so much water as is called for in so short a time.”20 He admitted that he had never visited the scablands himself but felt sure that a uniformitarian explanation was what was required. “The problem would be easier,” he opined, “if longer time and repeated floods could be allotted to do the work.”21



    James Gilluly, well known as an apostle of geologic gradualism, dismissed the notion of a single cataclysmic flood with words like “preposterous”, “incompetent”, and “wholly inadequate”.22 He found nothing in Bretz’s evidence to exclude his own preferred solution, namely that multiple smaller floods had been involved and that these would have been “of the order of magnitude of the present Columbia’s, or at most a few times as large”.’23

    Likewise G.R. Mansfield doubted that “so much work could be done on basalt in so short a time . . . The Scablands seem to me better explained as the effects of persistent ponding and overflow of marginal glacial waters, which changed their position or their places of outlet from time to time through a somewhat protracted period.”24


    Photos by Santha Faiia. Graham Hancock with catastrophist theorist Randall Carlson at Dry Falls — a fossilised waterfall of enormous size cut by the waters of Bretz’s flood and left as we see it now when the flood had run its course.

    O.E. Meinzer was obliged to confess that “the erosion features of the region are large and bizarre” but he, too, preferred a gradualist explanation: “Before a theory that requires a seemingly impossible quantity of water is fully accepted, every effort should be made to account for the existing features without employing so violent an assumption . . . I believe the existing features can be explained by assuming normal stream work of the ancient Columbia River . . .”…’25






    Photos by Santha Faiia. It is almost impossible to imagine the scale of the flood, jostling with giant icebergs, that scattered these immense boulders across the landscape of the channeled scablands.

    In summary, not a single voice was raised in support of Bretz and there was much patronizing dismissal of his “outrageous hypothesis” of a single large flood. In particular, the massed geologists homed in on what they clearly believed was the fatal flaw in the case for a sudden and overwhelming cataclysm – namely that Bretz had failed to identify a convincing source for his floodwaters.

    Bretz replied that he saw no logic in this, since lack of a documented source for the flood did not prove that there had been no flood. “I believe that my interpretation of channeled scabland should stand or fail on the scabland phenomena themselves,” he argued.26 He was, he said, as sensitive as anyone else to adverse criticism, and had “no desire to invite attention simply by advocating extremely novel views.” Moreover, he himself had repeatedly been driven to doubt “the verity of the Spokane Flood”,27 only to be forced “by reconsideration of the field evidence, to use again the conception of enormous volume . . . These remarkable records of running water on the Columbia Plateau, and in the valleys of the Snake and Columbia Rivers, cannot be interpreted in terms of ordinary river action and ordinary valley development . . . Enormous volume, existing for a very short time, alone will account for their existence.”28

    It was this accumulation of compelling field evidence that Bretz asked to be considered – not by emotion, not by intuition, not by reference to received wisdom, but only by “the established principles of the scientific method”.’29
    “Ideas without precedent,” he was to write later:

    “are generally looked on with disfavor and men are shocked if their conceptions of an orderly world are challenged. A hypothesis earnestly defended begets emotional reaction which may cloud the protagonist’s view, but if such hypotheses outrage prevailing modes of thought the view of antagonists may also become fogged.

    “On the other hand, geology is plagued with extravagant ideas which spring from faulty observation and misinterpretation. They are worse than ‘“outrageous hypotheses”’, for they lead nowhere. The writer’s Spokane Flood hypothesis may belong to the latter class, but it cannot be placed there unless errors of observation and direct inference are demonstrated.”’30
    [...]
    Full article: https://grahamhancock.com/hancockg17/
    Last edited by Hervé; 22nd May 2017 at 21:40.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  20. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    7alon (23rd May 2017), Bill Ryan (22nd May 2017), earthdreamer (23rd May 2017), Ewan (23rd May 2017), Foxie Loxie (22nd May 2017), Ivanhoe (23rd May 2017), Mark (Star Mariner) (23rd May 2017), Muzz (22nd May 2017)

  21. Link to Post #31
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    34,425
    Thanks
    211,625
    Thanked 459,754 times in 32,946 posts

    Default Re: Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson debate skeptic Michael Shermer on Alternative Earth Geology

    Quote Posted by 7alon (here)
    Yep I always watch the ones with Graham and Randall. Always fascinating discussion.
    Here they are. They're all solid gold.

  22. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    7alon (23rd May 2017), earthdreamer (23rd May 2017), Ewan (23rd May 2017), Foxie Loxie (23rd May 2017), Hervé (23rd May 2017), Wind (24th May 2017)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts