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    Avalon Member Verdilac's Avatar
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    Default Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    /www.flightradar24.com/C550/d7391aa

    Its been going around all afternoon, it did leave for a while after a dark cloud appeared, it thundered and rained. Now its back, seems to have taken off in Southampton just to lap the north east of the Uk, and as I look out of my window it has started to rain again ...
    Last edited by Verdilac; 20th May 2017 at 15:17.

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    Exclamation Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    indeed very weird :O Attachment 35286
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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    /www.flightradar24.com/C550/d7391aa

    Its been going around all afternoon, it did leave for a while after a dark cloud appeared, it thundered and rained. Now its back, seems to have taken off in Southampton just to lap the north east of the Uk, and as I look out of my window it has started to rain again ...
    It is listed as a Cessna 550 Citation II small business jet. Typically seating seven passengers, developed on the Citation I series. I've flown in this type of Jet b4. It's hanging around 1500-3500 feet. It has no registration number showing up in Flight Radar 24. I've watched the plane go by an air port runway a few times already. Currently it's down to 1400 feet altitude.

    Here is a virtual view what the pilot is seeing:



    It could be a training flight, but it is certainly odd. When the pilot gets to a specific altitude that altitude holds for a while as does the heading.
    Last edited by Bob; 20th May 2017 at 15:36.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    /www.flightradar24.com/C550/d7391aa

    Its been going around all afternoon, it did leave for a while after a dark cloud appeared, it thundered and rained. Now its back, seems to have taken off in Southampton just to lap the north east of the Uk, and as I look out of my window it has started to rain again ...
    It is listed as a Cessna 550 Citation II small business jet. Typically seating seven passengers, developed on the Citation I series. I've flown in this type of Jet b4. It's hanging around 1500-3500 feet. It has no registration number showing up in Flight Radar 24. I've watched the plane go by an air port runway a few times already. Currently it's down to 1400 feet altitude.

    Here is a virtual view what the pilot is seeing:



    It could be a training flight, but it is certainly odd. When the pilot gets to a specific altitude that altitude holds for a while as does the heading.
    It was down to 140 knots at 1 point, its stopped raining here and the sun has shown itself, I'm wondering if it is going to return, I'm travelling to Newcastle in 10 minutes or so , Also wondering if it is affecting the weather there too.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    It's just disappeared from Radar or the transponder was turned off. Was following it on a heading of 64 degrees and it was off-shore - I didn't catch the miles offshore tho..

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    It's just disappeared from Radar or the transponder was turned off. Was following it on a heading of 64 degrees and it was off-shore - I didn't catch the miles offshore tho..
    Is that the paid for version, I had that app for a while when I did my UFO watch last year.
    I know the app doesn't show much for info unless it is the full version.
    Last edited by shadowstalker; 20th May 2017 at 18:04.
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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    I used the paid version and was watching it in 3D mode (i was not signed in tho, pbly didn't make any difference). All data for most other aircraft, SN, transponder squawk were present - this one was "dark" for the most part. Continual figure 8's circles different altitudes over land and over water. I was watching other aircraft as far as the Netherlands with out data loss.. This one was Odd. Verdilac or ExomatrixTV may have done a screen capture. I just did a screen cap of the 3D flight mode..
    Last edited by Bob; 20th May 2017 at 19:10.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    Quote Posted by Verdilac (here)
    /www.flightradar24.com/C550/d7391aa

    Its been going around all afternoon, it did leave for a while after a dark cloud appeared, it thundered and rained. Now its back, seems to have taken off in Southampton just to lap the north east of the Uk, and as I look out of my window it has started to rain again ...
    It is listed as a Cessna 550 Citation II small business jet. Typically seating seven passengers, developed on the Citation I series. I've flown in this type of Jet b4. It's hanging around 1500-3500 feet. It has no registration number showing up in Flight Radar 24. I've watched the plane go by an air port runway a few times already. Currently it's down to 1400 feet altitude.

    Here is a virtual view what the pilot is seeing:



    It could be a training flight, but it is certainly odd. When the pilot gets to a specific altitude that altitude holds for a while as does the heading.
    From the little google map insert, far right, of the image posted - that is within two or three miles of where I live; I cannot recognise the view as presented though, insufficient landmarks.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    I didn't manage to capture a screen shot that saved as I was rushing to make an appointment ,but it did cross my mind to get some good old photographic evidence of the event.

    What on earth were they doing.
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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    They could possibly be trying to pick up some sort of signal from the ground, looking for something or someone.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by amor (here)
    They could possibly be trying to pick up some sort of signal from the ground, looking for something or someone.
    Well the 1st time I noticed this incident I was too busy to get to a computer to check anything, it crossed my mind they were zeroing in on something or maybe calibrating something. Anyway around 5 to 7 minutes had passed and the plane sounded like it had left the vicinity. So by the time I got online the plane in question had gone but I fully expected still see something in the area but all I caught was a lot of grounded planes and a klm flight way off courseClick image for larger version

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    What I later thought was odd is that the path of the C550 seemed to be flying by using the road network as a reference, and the odd path it was flying also corresponded as for as I can gather with A roads in the area. On the day I was on the approach path from Durham on the 1st loop & it buzzed by me easily 8 times,it seemed more as it was so low a close in trajectory.

    The pictures don't accurately show how many times it circled, let me say, it was a lot and hence my posting, it also crossed my mind that maybe it was a reccy for something.
    Last edited by Verdilac; 22nd May 2017 at 01:59.

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    Exclamation Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    The C550 is a JET, expensive to fly, and is comfortable flying many hundreds of MPH, not meant to do slow flight. It's meant to be up in the 35,000 foot altitude.. Flying at such a low altitude as this was doing over land really makes no sense in a congested airspace. If one is doing "touch and go's" that may be one reason to get to one or more airports, taking off and landing..

    But all this "training" stuff usually happens on a flight simulator (computer system), and what this plane was doing is not normal for the flight density of other planes in the area..

    Some specs:

    Cessna Citation II
    Cruise speed: 403 knots (464 mph, 746 km/h, 0.7 Mach) at 35,000 ft (10,670 m); Stall speed: 82 knots (94 mph, 152 km/h); Range: 1,998 nmi (2,300 mi) It would not be flying much below 120 mph with weather and potential for getting messed up with heavy winds.

    Flight cost per hour: Total Variable Cost Per Hour $ 1,199.86
    Considering how many hour it was there just "messing around", that was quite an expensive ride.

    ==post update==

    I had another thought on this based on some earlier data a few years back I had read (I think I may have this in a thread somewhere about hacking airborne flight computers)... Just wondering if this maybe was more of a "hack into" local radar flight logging systems for UK.. in other words a military (or unauthorized civilian) hacking of the data which ATC (air traffic controllers may use for flight plotting)... Possibly some sort of potential weapon(s) test, to confuse flight radar logging systems.. a prelude for an attack scenario (somewhere, not necessarily UK), tested on UK's radar and flight tracking.. (just thinking out loud..)

    Here are some references on that thought train:
    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...orist-hackers/

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05..._cyber_attack/

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30454240

    http://resources.infosecinstitute.co...tion-industry/

    Quote RenderMan said that it is possible to create fake “ghost planes” by spoofing signals:

    “If I can inject 50 extra flights onto an air traffic controller’s screen, they are not going to know what is going on,” he told NPR. “If you could introduce enough chaos into the system – for even an hour – that hour will ripple though the entire world’s air traffic control.”
    Maybe what we were 'seeing' was a spoof, a hacking happening, a weapons system test? Granted a "plane" was reported. Did it have the sound of a JET, or a prop plane?

    If this was a prop-plane masquerading as a Cessna Citation II, due to some hacking spoofing, it may be even more complicated just what witnesses were hearing or seeing.. Did anyone see the circling or figure 8 looping, and was one certain it was the same plane?
    Last edited by Bob; 22nd May 2017 at 02:55.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    I decided to check on what FlightRadar24 uses to "track" and present data.

    Quote How it works

    Flightradar24 is a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world. Flightradar24 combines data from several data sources including ADS-B, MLAT and radar data. The ADS-B, MLAT and radar data is aggregated together with schedule and flight status data from airlines and airports to create a unique flight track.
    Also

    Quote ADS-B

    How ADS-B works


    The primary technology that Flightradar24 use to receive flight information is called automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B). The ADS-B technology itself is best explained by the image to the right.
    • Aircraft gets its location from a GPS navigation source (satellite)
    • The ADS-B transponder on aircraft transmits signal containing the location (and much more)
    • ADS-B signal is picked up by a receiver connected to Flightradar24
    • Receiver feeds data to Flightradar24
    Data is shown on www.flightradar24.com and in Flightradar24 apps

    ADS-B is a relatively new technology under development, which means that today it's rarely used by Air Traffic Control (ATC). Our estimations show that roughly 70% of all commercial passenger aircraft (80% in Europe, 60% in the US) are equipped with an ADS-B transponder.

    For general aviation this number is probably below 20%. The percentage of aircraft equipped with ADS-B receivers is steadily increasing though, as they will become mandatory for most aircraft around the world by 2020. When mandatory, ADS-B will replace primary radar as the primary surveillance method used by ATC.
    From InfoSEC institute (link in the above earlier post)

    Quote The researchers demonstrated that an attack could produce fake alarms such as those an aircraft might transmit during an emergency or terrorist attack.

    “Without appropriate countermeasures, critical air traffic management decision processes should not rely on ADS-B derived data,” the researchers said. “We hope that the rule makers and regulators involved in the ADS- B standardization process will recognize the criticality of the described threats and include security as one of its key requirements in future releases,” said a member of the team.
    They also said this:

    "This type of attack against ground stations in radar systems represents a serious menace as explained by the researchers. The method of attack proposed by the team of researchers, dubbed Ground Station Flooding, consists of a series of jamming attacks on a ground sensor or aircraft causing the losses and deletion of messages. Loss of messages could force the adoption of less efficient or less accurate surveillance and control methods. In high density areas (e.g. Around major international airports) for example the failure of surveillance or collision avoidance could result in human failure with fatal consequences."

    So FlightRadar24 relying on ADS-B transmissions from the "aircraft" may have been seeing spoofing, jamming, or some electronic warfare test. Never-the-less, phenomenal catch Verdilac noted the out-of-the-ordinary behaviour happening.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    The C550 is a JET, expensive to fly, and is comfortable flying many hundreds of MPH, not meant to do slow flight. It's meant to be up in the 35,000 foot altitude.. Flying at such a low altitude as this was doing over land really makes no sense in a congested airspace. If one is doing "touch and go's" that may be one reason to get to one or more airports, taking off and landing..

    But all this "training" stuff usually happens on a flight simulator (computer system), and what this plane was doing is not normal for the flight density of other planes in the area..

    Some specs:

    Cessna Citation II
    Cruise speed: 403 knots (464 mph, 746 km/h, 0.7 Mach) at 35,000 ft (10,670 m); Stall speed: 82 knots (94 mph, 152 km/h); Range: 1,998 nmi (2,300 mi) It would not be flying much below 120 mph with weather and potential for getting messed up with heavy winds.

    Flight cost per hour: Total Variable Cost Per Hour $ 1,199.86
    Considering how many hour it was there just "messing around", that was quite an expensive ride.
    So possibly not a C550 but just being reported/tagged as one? Conceivable?

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    I think definitely conceivable.. To me flying a high speed jet that low to ground for such a long duration time, someone had maybe 10K$ US to blow, plus the requirement for two pilots plus getting clearance from air traffic control, the tower at two airports at least, and avoiding other large commercial airlines and small planes. If someone was in a small plane squawking back a different ID on the transponder, no doubt there is some law being skirted around with false identification of an aircraft.. When it was then headed over the sea at least 10 miles out, at low altitude, it just "disappears", no longer reporting it's location.. such an oddity, I can't see any normal rational pilot or instructor using such a jet in this manner.. turning off identification is not something one would do.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    A little off topic, but on Sunday I had a rather strange experience, probably made stranger by my ignorance of the technical details. A medium-sized passenger jet with raked-back wings flew low over my house heading west, the only likely scenario being to sweep round to land at the small local airport about ten miles south of here. I came indoors to check on flightradar24 but there was nothing on the screen in the vicinity at all. I checked the local timetable, and there was only one incoming flight all afternoon, a very different plane from the one I saw. My wife was out in the garden where she would have heard but not seen the plane I saw and heard (not very loud) but she hadn’t, and joked I must be hearing things – maybe she was just engrossed in her book. But I was reminded of an earlier incident a couple of years back I reported here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post989814


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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    The C550 is a JET, expensive to fly, and is comfortable flying many hundreds of MPH, not meant to do slow flight. It's meant to be up in the 35,000 foot altitude.. Flying at such a low altitude as this was doing over land really makes no sense in a congested airspace. If one is doing "touch and go's" that may be one reason to get to one or more airports, taking off and landing..

    what this plane was doing is not normal for the flight density of other planes in the area..

    Some specs:

    Cessna Citation II
    Cruise speed: 403 knots (464 mph, 746 km/h, 0.7 Mach) at 35,000 ft (10,670 m); Stall speed: 82 knots (94 mph, 152 km/h); Range: 1,998 nmi (2,300 mi) It would not be flying much below 120 mph with weather and potential for getting messed up with heavy winds.

    Flight cost per hour: Total Variable Cost Per Hour $ 1,199.86
    Considering how many hour it was there just "messing around", that was quite an expensive ride.

    ==post update==

    I had another thought on this based on some earlier data a few years back I had read (I think I may have this in a thread somewhere about hacking airborne flight computers)... Just wondering if this maybe was more of a "hack into" local radar flight logging systems for UK.. in other words a military (or unauthorized civilian) hacking of the data which ATC (air traffic controllers may use for flight plotting)... Possibly some sort of potential weapon(s) test, to confuse flight radar logging systems.. a prelude for an attack scenario (somewhere, not necessarily UK), tested on UK's radar and flight tracking.. (just thinking out loud..)

    Here are some references on that thought train:
    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...orist-hackers/

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05..._cyber_attack/

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30454240

    http://resources.infosecinstitute.co...tion-industry/

    Quote RenderMan said that it is possible to create fake “ghost planes” by spoofing signals:

    “If I can inject 50 extra flights onto an air traffic controller’s screen, they are not going to know what is going on,” he told NPR. “If you could introduce enough chaos into the system – for even an hour – that hour will ripple though the entire world’s air traffic control.”
    Maybe what we were 'seeing' was a spoof, a hacking happening, a weapons system test? Granted a "plane" was reported. Did it have the sound of a JET, or a prop plane?

    If this was a prop-plane masquerading as a Cessna Citation II, due to some hacking spoofing, it may be even more complicated just what witnesses were hearing or seeing.. Did anyone see the circling or figure 8 looping, and was one certain it was the same plane?
    100% agree, this odd behaviour in such a high traffic area was startling, a massive amount of planes use the circled area C550 was flying in as part of there path of approach for NCL airport.

    Also the system was not acting in a reliable way prior to this occasion as flight KL1189/KLM33Y , Amsterdam to Bergen appeared to be no more than 30 miles from the UK north east shortly before this event, which I find odd if this was to be true.Then if you add to that the stacked plane's on the ground at many airports, you may have to think "hey" has the system been hacked? and if so. By who and to what ends.

    Another thing to be pointed out, due to light low cloud cover nobody could see any of this, I myself thought it originally sounded like tornado taking it easy but then I thought "NO" that sounds like a larger plane because of the perceived displacement of air. A plane makes many different noises to a bystander some affected by the weather conditions. I'm sure it had no more than 2 jet engines and was not of prop/turboprop propulsion. I found this on youtube
    Then I found this
    I think these planes have quite a particular noise, they sound larger than there physical dimensions that could be confused with something larger or maybe something with a different wing configuration that has more air resistance.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    When it was then headed over the sea at least 10 miles out, at low altitude, it just "disappears", no longer reporting it's location.. such an oddity, I can't see any normal rational pilot or instructor using such a jet in this manner.. turning off identification is not something one would do.
    Unless they have something very large to land on. The whole exercise seems contradictory to any kind of secrecy, unless that's the point, " Hiding things in plane sight" if you excuse the pun.

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    Default Re: Any idea what this plane is doing ? weather mod?

    I was thinking about this topic again today, and acquired this quote from Wikipedia regarding the Lacrosse Radar Satellite. The Lacrosse Satellite was always stuck in my mind for some reason and up it popped in my thoughts today.

    "Lacrosse is a terrestrial radar imaging reconnaissance satellite operated by the NRO. It utilizes a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to acquire high resolution images regardless of cloud cover" It was cloudy on that particular day, this inevitably lead to the mention of Ground Penetrating Radar "GPR".

    Does anyone think that the particular plane mentioned in this thread may have been fitted with "SAR" or "GPR"and may have been building up a detailed, up to date topographic map of the area it circled, as I'm at a loss to think what else could have been happening.

    If so, to what ends?

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