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Thread: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

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    Default Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Many of you would say lead is as safe as peanut butter. If so, then please, go eat a pencil, paint your entire house with lead paint and smoke a cigarette when you are done. But wouldn't you wonder why lead paint has been made illegal? Lead in gasoline has been banned? Several lawsuits exist against cigarette companies because they contained lead? Why was it a BIG DEAL to let your children play with toys coated in lead? Have at it.

    If you are really curious, you can do your homework to find out that lead does decay in a radioactive manner as discovered by Marie and Pierre Curie. So many of you think lead is fine because there is a ton of research telling you so. The simple fact is that it's radioactive decay is minute compared to things like uranium and thorium so the most scientists funded by big name companies will call it zero.

    I know most of us don't study particle physics but it is never too late to do a little homework of your own. It is YOUR LIFE. I'm not here to show you mathematical equations or hold your hand. In this here life we are all supposed to make the best decisions on the data we have. It may be a bit more difficult to find this information but I can assure you it is there.

    Just ask yourself, "Why has it been removed from so many facets of our everyday lives?" And then go drink some tap water.

    We are here to help each other so I apologize if I offend you by telling you lead is bad for you. I'm sure there will be many more. If that is you, go eat another PB & Pb sandwich. Aloha.

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Lead (the stable form end result of the decay chain) is not radioactive in the normal transuranic decay chain (I have made that clear I think in other posts in other threads) - lead is toxic - I need to ask something - is there a reason why you are posting different threads to what appears to me to apparently cover up what you had stated in an earlier thread about "lead is radioactive" (and therefore the danger is from radioactivity in your stated belief) - that to me I feel is is disinformation, or possibly a confusion/misunderstanding. I feel that a new thread certainly isn't going to create a useful understanding for folks without references about why you feel that lead is radioactive therefor "dangerous:. (the reference to your statement is listed later in this thread)

    I have not seen one credible reference so far backing up your statement/question allegation that LEAD decay series end resultant "stable lead" from a transuranic element is radioactive.

    Again, as I had asked you, how come ? Why are you doing this on this forum?

    I find your logics illogical, and your questions not relevant in the above OP -
    Quote I know most of us don't study particle physics but it is never too late to do a little homework of your own. It is YOUR LIFE. I'm not here to show you mathematical equations or hold your hand. In this here life we are all supposed to make the best decisions on the data we have. It may be a bit more difficult to find this information but I can assure you it is there.
    The amount of isotopes in the environment of LEAD that are classified as "radioactive" are minuscule, and nobody is going to be coming in contact with such in the environment.

    Lead is TOXIC - TOXIC is different than radioactive - why are you pushing Radioactive? Maybe to cover a post you made in another thread? What is your intent? Helping the forum members or continuing to work towards fear porn?

    It is customary on this forum to use REFERENCES - http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/pb.htm such as for explaining to members who are not physicists nor scientists, who want to understand.

    What a good forum member would do is help to enlighten, to give understanding and share to offer solutions. It is called being UPSTAT (up statistic or creating a beneficial understanding with the group) - fear porn continues to push the down-statistic, or keeping people in a negative vibration, unable to see the light of day, or the surface of the water if they are drowning. Just some kind understanding shared with a newbie.

    However, your thread title is different from the contents of your OP post 1, which seems to me more like a justification, and to me, as I see it, to your earlier post where you said LEAD is radioactive, therefore is dangerous (if I understood what you said)..

    Please share with the group why you feel it is radioactive that was your point which I made quite clear to the group .. I find regular lead found in the environment is NOT radioactive but is TOXIC - reference below:

    Quote Lead occurs naturally in the environment. However, most lead concentrations that are found in the environment are a result of human activities. Due to the application of lead in gasoline an unnatural lead-cycle has consisted. In car engines lead is burned, so that lead salts (chlorines, bromines, oxides) will originate.

    These lead salts enter the environment through the exhausts of cars. The larger particles will drop to the ground immediately and pollute soils or surface waters, the smaller particles will travel long distances through air and remain in the atmosphere. Part of this lead will fall back on earth when it is raining. This lead-cycle caused by human production is much more extended than the natural lead-cycle. It has caused lead pollution to be a worldwide issue.

    Health effects of lead

    Lead is a soft metal that has known many applications over the years. It has been used widely since 5000 BC for application in metal products, cables and pipelines, but also in paints and pesticides. Lead is one out of four metals that have the most damaging effects on human health. It can enter the human body through uptake of food (65%), water (20%) and air (15%).

    Foods such as fruit, vegetables, meats, grains, seafood, soft drinks and wine may contain significant amounts of lead. Cigarette smoke also contains small amounts of lead.

    Lead can enter (drinking) water through corrosion of pipes. This is more likely to happen when the water is slightly acidic. That is why public water treatment systems are now required to carry out pH-adjustments in water that will serve drinking purposes.

    For as far as we know, lead fulfils no essential function in the human body, it can merely do harm after uptake from food, air or water.

    Lead can cause several unwanted effects, such as:
    - Disruption of the biosynthesis of haemoglobin and anaemia
    - A rise in blood pressure
    - Kidney damage
    - Miscarriages and subtle abortions
    - Disruption of nervous systems
    - Brain damage
    - Declined fertility of men through sperm damage
    - Diminished learning abilities of children
    - Behavioural disruptions of children, such as aggression, impulsive behavior and hyperactivity

    Lead can enter a foetus through the placenta of the mother. Because of this it can cause serious damage to the nervous system and the brains of unborn children.

    Environmental effects of lead

    Not only leaded gasoline causes lead concentrations in the environment to rise. Other human activities, such as fuel combustion, industrial processes and solid waste combustion, also contribute.

    Lead can end up in water and soils through corrosion of leaded pipelines in a water transporting system and through corrosion of leaded paints. It cannot be broken down; it can only converted to other forms.

    Lead accumulates in the bodies of water organisms and soil organisms. These will experience health effects from lead poisoning. Health effects on shellfish can take place even when only very small concentrations of lead are present. Body functions of phytoplankton can be disturbed when lead interferes. Phytoplankton is an important source of oxygen production in seas and many larger sea-animals eat it. That is why we now begin to wonder whether lead pollution can influence global balances.

    Soil functions are disturbed by lead intervention, especially near highways and farmlands, where extreme concentrations may be present. Soil organisms than suffer from lead poisoning, too.

    Lead is a particularly dangerous chemical, as it can accumulate in individual organisms, but also in entire food chains.
    reference: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/pb.htm

    some kind advice and thoughts - back up your statement with references, show the logic, connect the dots.. sensationalism does nothing except put the forum into a downstat, and this FORUM is very much into truth, enlightenment and compassion. I certainly would appreciate seeing quality verses "noise"..

    Personally, as to your continual use of Aloha - if you are familiar with https://apnews.com/9cf6f1aa594c41fe9...sed-bomb-range "Kahoolawe " you would know of the disaster which happened there with the use of LEAD based bombs. My feeling is if you want to bring attention to environmental pollution, focus on the toxicity of LEAD, and the disaster of unexploded ordinance (UXO's) and maybe in my opinion please use ALOHA in the term it was meant to be, friendship and enlightenment..

    Quote Hawaiians traveled to Kahoolawe Island as early as 400 A.D., and it’s home to nearly 3,000 archaeological sites. It’s also littered with unexploded ordnance.

    The U.S. Navy used the barren island as a bombing range for decades starting in World War II. It later joined with the state and spent millions on cleanup, but they didn’t finish the job.

    Today, live grenades and bombs remain scattered across about a quarter of the 45-square-mile island. But the agency tasked with restoring Kahoolawe is likely on its own next year after lawmakers passed a bill pushing it to become financially self-sufficient.

    Now, the Kahoolawe Island Reserve Commission and community advocates are looking for ways to fund the rest of the cleanup so they can bring back native wildlife and use the island as a Native Hawaiian educational center.

    It’s no small effort. Restoring and then replanting the entire island could take decades and cost billions of dollars, despite about $400 million spent between the commission and the Navy since 1994, the agency said. The commission also has depleted a $44 million federal trust fund since the state gained control of the island in 2004.

    “It speaks volumes to the amount of bombing Kahoolawe sustained that so much work still needs to be done to complete this effort,” U.S. Sen. Mazie Hirono said. She added she will work to help find solutions to finish the cleanup at the culturally significant site, which is banned from commercial use.

    On a clear day, the islands of Maui, Lanai and Molokai are visible from the shores of Kahoolawe, which archaeological evidence suggests Hawaiians used as a navigational center for voyaging, a workshop for making stone tools and for cultural ceremonies. Fortunately, many of the cultural sites such as fishing shrines were on the coast and were spared from the military bombing, which went on for 50 years, said Michael Nahoopii, the Kahoolawe Island Reserve Commission’s executive director.

    Still, gold-colored grenades that explode if touched, bombs weighing up to 2,000 pounds and hundreds of projectiles remain.

    “You walk across this line, and it is night and day. One side of the line is very clean. There’s no scrap metal. There’s nothing on the ground,” Nahoopii said. “You walk across this line, and there’s bombs sticking out of the ground. There are pieces of razor-sharp metal.”

    A 2013 financial audit criticized the Kahoolawe commission for lacking a comprehensive cleanup plan and measures to gauge if objectives are being met.

    Lawmakers recently passed a measure giving the agency $450,000 for restoration during the upcoming year, but no money after 2017. One of the requirements is that the commission come up with a plan for being self-sufficient. The proposal has been sent to Gov. David Ige, who hasn’t said whether he will sign it into law.

    Ideas for future funding include running the island off renewable energy and charging tuition for educational programs.

    Josh Kaakua, a commissioner and member of the Protect Kahoolawe Ohana, said the state should help fund Kahoolawe’s restoration since it took responsibility for the island after the Navy ended the federal cleanup.

    The island was also ravaged by years of cattle and goat ranching before its military use — the Army first trained there in 1925 — and faces problems with severe erosion and a lack of fresh water sources.

    “I think people only care about what’s in their backyard, so often I think Kahoolawe gets put to the side,” Kaakua said. “Kahoolawe is a treasure. It’s a resource. But we’re losing it. We’re slipping. Nobody is paying attention.”

    Nahoopii, meanwhile, said the Navy has a responsibility to finish restoring the island. When the federal government took over Kahoolawe in the 1950s, it agreed to return the land in a condition of “suitable habitation,” he said.

    Yet Agnes Tauyan, director of public affairs for Navy Region Hawaii, said the Navy completed what was required by the federal government and isn’t aware of any requests to return to Kahoolawe.

    Live-fire training at Kahoolawe ended in 1990, and the Navy, which ran the operation, was responsible for cleanup. About 100 other locations throughout the Pacific fall under the Formerly Used Defense Sites program overseen by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

    That program is cleaning up property that was used by the military before 1986, when it was founded. But the sites don’t require nearly as much work as Kahoolawe, according to Joseph Bonfiglio, spokesman for the Honolulu Army Corps of Engineers.

    reference: https://apnews.com/9cf6f1aa594c41fe9...sed-bomb-range
    Last edited by Bob; 12th June 2017 at 01:15.

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    To answer the OP question and remain on-topic: yes, lead is indeed radioactive and used for rock dating:
    Lead–lead dating

    Lead-lead dating is a method for dating geological samples, normally based on 'whole-rock' samples of material such as granite. For most dating requirements it has been superseded by uranium-lead dating (U-Pb dating), but in certain specialized situations (such as dating meteorites and the age of the Earth) it is more important than U-Pb dating.
    But, as RMF808 mentions:
    Quote The simple fact is that its [rate of] radioactive decay is [so] minute compared to things like uranium and thorium [that] most scientists funded by big name companies will call it zero.
    Accordingly, lead radioactivity is considered negligible over the length of an average human life...
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    It is inconsequential Hervé as the radioactive "lead" isotopes are NOT in the environment in ANY appreciable amount - the Toxicity is not from RADIOACTIVITY. That is where the misleading disinformation is coming across - the lead-in is "radioactive" from another post being the source of the "toxicity" - it is not toxic from "radioactivity". (pls read on)

    [Mode-edit: Links? Hervé]

    For Herve' and the group - asked for reference links: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1159474

    and

    https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/...minate-at-lead

    http://findwords.info/term/decay%20chain

    Probably one of the biggest reasons to be wary of lead toxicity is explained here:

    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-makes...isonous-607898

    It is not a radioactivity question as posted by the fellow in an earlier thread and then this one afterwards to push back to the "radioactivity" issue, skirting on the points made are TOXICITY not radioactivity that does the damage...

    here:

    Quote You know lead is toxic, but do you know what makes it poisonous? In a nutshell, it's toxic mainly because it preferentially replaces other metals (e.g., zinc, calcium and iron) in biochemical reactions. Lead interferes with the proteins that cause certain genes to turn on and off by displacing other metals in the molecules. This changes the shape of the protein molecule such that it can't perform its function. Research is ongoing to identify which molecules bind with lead. Some of the proteins that are known to be affected by lead regulate blood pressure (which can cause development delays in children and high blood pressure in adults), heme production (which can lead to anemia), and sperm production (possibly implicating lead in infertility).

    Lead displaces calcium in the reactions that transmit electrical impulses in the brain, which is another way of saying it diminishes your ability to think or recall information, or makes you stupid.

    Paracelsus' idea that the dose makes the poison doesn't really apply with lead. Many substances are non-toxic or even essential in trace amounts, yet poisonous in quantity.

    You need iron to transport oxygen in your red blood cells, yet too much iron can kill you. You breathe oxygen, yet again, too much is lethal. Lead isn't like those elements. It's simply poisonous.
    Quote from the OP post 1 in this thread:

    Quote Many of you would say lead is as safe as peanut butter. If so, then please, go eat a pencil, paint your entire house with lead paint and smoke a cigarette when you are done. But wouldn't you wonder why lead paint has been made illegal? Lead in gasoline has been banned? Several lawsuits exist against cigarette companies because they contained lead? Why was it a BIG DEAL to let your children play with toys coated in lead? Have at it.
    Have at it? I find that rude, condescending disingenuous and a deliberate slam at the intelligence of the members of this forum and the reading public. That is no way for a new member to help the forum members or the general public understand the LEAD issue.. IMHO of course. Insulting antagonism with a dash of disinformation tossed in in the least.


    Gees - "lead pencils" contain a core of GRAPHITE, not LEAD (https://pencils.com/the-unleaded-pencil/)

    House paint has been switched to LATEX based paint, and any lead based paint has to be declared in a statement to new buyers as does asbestos.. and gasoline for many years has been changed over to "lead-free". Not because it is "radioactive" but because of the neurological and cellular damaging reasons cited above (https://www.thoughtco.com/what-makes...isonous-607898)
    Last edited by Bob; 12th June 2017 at 01:28.

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    BBC Program Journeys from the Centre of the Earth Risky Rocks discusses lead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q_kPZZgpHs
    The lead discussion starts at 28:32 but for the fast summary scroll to 39:00 to 41:17

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Mercí Hervé,

    D'accord. It is not a massive amount but it does affect us. My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead. No matter how small, I do not want them in my system and hope others can reduce it as much as possible in their lives. The more you are near it and handle it, the more it affects you. I have friends who work as SCUBA divers and they are constantly handling bare lead. There are people adamant about disagreeing with this and I really have no idea why. I just ignore them and go on my merry way knowing that if they want lead in their system, families and friends, they can have it. I'm not trying to stop anyone from using it who wants it, just educating people. Mahalo, mercí, aloha & namasté.

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Aloha fourty-two,

    Thank you for your post. I haven't seen your video yet but I will soon. By the title, I am guessing it describes it in an alertive manner but we don't need to go running out into the streets screaming about it. I know the affects are small but I know the effects exist. I am merely here trying to help those who will listen to mitigate it in their own lives. As I said in the original post, those who want it can have it. I'm not trying to take it away from anyone, just educating. It seems to be an extremely touchy subject but I am really good at ignoring those posts. Like the newest post of mine, we decide where we put our energy in life and I choose to feed the good wolf. I am much happier when I don't feed the bad wolf and it has been even easier than I expected. Mahalo, aloha & namasté

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    All particles decay, including Hydrogen. Even the most stable of particles, the proton, has a half life. It just so happens that the proton's half life is twice the age of the universe. But it will eventually decay into subatomic particles like all the rest of the "stable" elements.

    Don't understand the point. Who thinks lead is "good" for them? Who is using lead based products?

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Why lead? I'm sure most of us are aware of the dangers by now. Lead is not as prevalent as it was decades ago. It has largely been removed from consumer products and the warnings are out there. It seems there are threats much more likely to harm us than lead.

    But thanks for being concerned and sharing.
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    Mercí Hervé,
    D'accord. It is not a massive amount but it does affect us. My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead. No matter how small, I do not want them in my system and hope others can reduce it as much as possible in their lives.
    So, your concern about lead is it's radioactivity?


    What if "too little" radiation were bad for you?
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Even the most stable of particles, the proton, has a half life.
    That's just a theory . A theory requires experimental proof and we were unable to see decaying protons so far.

    Along with neutrons, protons make up the nucleus, held together by the strong force. The proton is a baryon and is considered to be composed of two up quarks and one down quark.

    ]It has long been considered to be a stable particle, but recent developments of grand unification models have suggested that it might decay with a half-life of about 10^32 years. Experiments are underway to see if such decays can be detected. Decay of the proton would violate the conservation of baryon number, and in doing so would be the only known process in nature which does so.




    Proton decay is one of the key predictions of the various grand unified theories (GUTs) proposed in the 1970s, another major one being the existence of magnetic monopoles. Both concepts have been the focus of major experimental physics efforts since the early 1980s. To date, all attempts to observe these events have failed. Best results come from the super-Kamiokande water Cherenkov radiation detector in Japan. 2015 analysis gave half-life higher than 1.67×1034 years via positron decay[4] and 2012 analysis gave 1.08×34 years via antimuon decay,[5] close to a supersymmetry (SUSY) prediction of 1034–1036 yr.[6] An upgraded version, Hyper-Kamiokande, probably will have sensitivity 5–10 times better than super-Kamiokande.[4]

    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 12th June 2017 at 22:33. Reason: display exponents as superscripts

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    Many of you would say lead is as safe as peanut butter.
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead.
    I'm a little confused about this... not one single person I know thinks 'lead is as safe as peanut butter', and certainly no Avalon members do.

    This is why lead is now removed from paints, children's toys, and so on, and it's been acknowledged as potentially dangerous for years.

    Radioactivity in lead is trivial, but lead as a heavy metal in our systems is not. We all know that. What's the purpose of the thread?

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Why lead? I'm sure most of us are aware of the dangers by now. Lead is not as prevalent as it was decades ago. It has largely been removed from consumer products and the warnings are out there. It seems there are threats much more likely to harm us than lead.

    But thanks for being concerned and sharing.
    The OP made an assertion in another thread that lead has an inherent danger by being radioactive. It seems to have "led" (pun intended ) to this thread.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Why lead? I'm sure most of us are aware of the dangers by now. Lead is not as prevalent as it was decades ago. It has largely been removed from consumer products and the warnings are out there. It seems there are threats much more likely to harm us than lead.

    But thanks for being concerned and sharing.
    It was a response to a simple reference in another post mentioning that lead was radioactive and bad for you. Someone went off the handle about lead not being radioactive. I decided if one person didn't know then maybe there were more than that. I do specifically say that the effects of its radioactivity are minor but they do exist. Hence, why it has been removed from so many parts of our everyday lives. Many people comment like I am trying to take lead from them and it has been quite comical. I do say something like "go eat a pencil" if you want. It was just a simple response before I found the ignore list haha. Thanks for the comment, aloha & namasté.

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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    Many of you would say lead is as safe as peanut butter.
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead.
    I'm a little confused about this... not one single person I know thinks 'lead is as safe as peanut butter', and certainly no Avalon members do.

    This is why lead is now removed from paints, children's toys, and so on, and it's been acknowledged as potentially dangerous for years.

    Radioactivity in lead is trivial, but lead as a heavy metal in our systems is not. We all know that. What's the purpose of the thread?
    I know Bill. It was a response to a member comment going off the handle about lead NOT being radioactive when in fact it is. In the original mention I was just referring to lead being bad for us. Technically though, even hydrogen is radioactive. I do state that the effects are minor but they do exist, hence the reasons it has been removed from so many facets of our everyday lives.

    I have a lot of friends that work in the SCUBA industry and handle bare lead all day. A lot of them never considered lead poisoning either. I figured if one person didn't know then maybe there might be more. I will take down the post if it really does offend you or Avalon. I am just here to help everyone and share information. Aloha & namasté

  26. Link to Post #16
    United States Avalon Member RMF808's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    Mercí Hervé,
    D'accord. It is not a massive amount but it does affect us. My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead. No matter how small, I do not want them in my system and hope others can reduce it as much as possible in their lives.
    So, your concern about lead is it's radioactivity?


    What if "too little" radiation were bad for you?
    This has been so blown out of proportion but thanks for posting. It was an original mention about lead being bad for us and I mentioned its radioactivity. This guy went off the handle about it not being reactive but technically, even hydrogen is radioactive. If you read my post carefully you would see that I do say that the effects are minor and the more you handle it the more it affects you. I have friends that work in the SCUBA industry handling lead all day. They never considered why lead had been removed from so many other parts of our lives.

    And yes, too little radioactivity is bad for us but I can go on and on about this all day from a particle physics standpoint but how do you mean it? I'm just saying I don't want lead around me and maybe reminding others that they should try to minimize it in their lives as well because it's not on the front of everyone's mind. Just here trying to help. Aloha & namasté

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  28. Link to Post #17
    UK Avalon Member Mike Gorman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    Many of you would say lead is as safe as peanut butter.
    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    My goal here was to educate people about the effects of lead.
    I'm a little confused about this... not one single person I know thinks 'lead is as safe as peanut butter', and certainly no Avalon members do.

    This is why lead is now removed from paints, children's toys, and so on, and it's been acknowledged as potentially dangerous for years.

    Radioactivity in lead is trivial, but lead as a heavy metal in our systems is not. We all know that. What's the purpose of the thread?
    Lead is the decayed result of Uranium I recall learning years ago - if you look at a lump of Uranium it is very similar in colour/texture-but nope, not radioactive it is spent! Highly toxic for sure though.

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  30. Link to Post #18
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is lead (Pb) radioactive?

    Quote Posted by RMF808 (here)
    I will take down the post if it really does offend you or Avalon. I am just here to help everyone and share information.
    Yes, thanks. Whether lead is (to a very small degree) radioactive or not is all but irrelevant.

    It's just that you're rather over-egging the omelet here, very much preaching to the converted. Of course lead is toxic, especially if ingested... almost everyone knows that, and has done for years.

  31. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    BMJ (15th June 2017), Bob (13th June 2017), conk (14th June 2017), DeDukshyn (13th June 2017), Ernie Nemeth (23rd June 2017), GaelVictor (14th June 2017), shadowstalker (13th June 2017)

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