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Thread: Theory of how to use Electricity

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    Avalon Member dynamo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Quote Posted by Nick Matkin (here)
    I think he's describing charging a discharged capacitor with a charged one via a small light bulb.

    Anyone familiar with basic electronics would say, "Yes, but so what?" All you have done is equalised the charge in two capacitors.

    (I note that no one has challenged by exposure of a global conspiracy in post #4.)
    Yes, thanks Nick, now I get what he's saying and that is a cool concept.
    Turion, there is no reason to run off because people question you.
    Like myself, perhaps they do not understand what exactly it is that you are trying to accomplish.

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    UK Avalon Member Nick Matkin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    I hope Turion hasn't gone. This forum is "Where science and spirituality meet" after all; people can express their ideas and experiences for discussion, although new claims do need to be supported by at least some evidence.

    But it's when people come blundering in, firing in all directions declaring that they are right and that all of science is 'obviously' wrong - well that's when it p***es people off. They display all the characteristics of having the Dunning–Kruger effect, and in that case there is absolutely no point trying to reason with them because they simply can't comprehend that they don't understand what they're talking about. Weird I know, but these people seem to be attracted to anonymity of 'alternative' forums and discussion groups.
    Last edited by Nick Matkin; 20th June 2017 at 14:45.

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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Let me make one last statement before I give up completely on this forum and the folks here. It is my hope that you are honorable men and your desire is nothing more than to prevent folks from being hoodwinked by film flam artists, and for that reason you are skeptical of both what I posted here and my intent. I did not like the tone of some of the comments made, but perhaps I am reading more into it than was intended. (I doubt it) I showed a simple experiment with two capacitors and a load connected between them. Perhaps I was unclear as to WHAT I was trying to show with that simple experiment. SO I will give the benefit of the doubt.

    My claim is this: That you can move electricity (in the case of my example, 25 volts) from a source of higher potential (capacitor one) THROUGH a LOAD (the light bulb) to a lower potential (capacitor two) RUNNING THE LOAD without USING UP that electricity in the process. That is the ONLY thing my simple experiment was designed to prove. You start with 25 volts. You run the light as the electricity moves from one capacitor to the other, yet you STIL HAVE 25 volts when the capacitors have equalized. OR you can simply hook up your light directly to the capacitor charged with 25 volts and it will light up until the capacitor has 0 volts left in it, which is the conventional way. Take your pick. I realize this is a small experiment, but to say that running loads (and I have run BIG ONES) off the potential difference without using up the energy in the source, is of NO VALUE is either from a lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to discredit my work and divert people away from the truth. If you cannot SEE the value in what I have shown, or refuse to believe it is possible, then I will be on my way.

    NO, you CANNOT do it with capacitors because there is no way to take the voltage that is now split between two capacitors and put it all back into one so you can do it again and again and again, but this was only to be a proof of concept EXAMPLE, not a working device.
    Last edited by Turion; 19th June 2017 at 23:45.

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    Ecuador Avalon Member wnlight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    I have no problem with your experiment using capacitors. I followed it as a thought experiment since I have had considerable experience using capacitors in the past. I have trouble transferring your concept to rechargeable batteries. Perhaps you could help me there. Also, I have even more trouble trying to visualize your use of solar panels. Should I presume that the panels are connected to make a single source? And the total house load replaces the earlier wheat bulb? Is your load placed between two banks of rechargeable batteries? Help me out.

    Also, is the load total D/C or converted to A/C?
    Last edited by wnlight; 19th June 2017 at 23:17.
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Quote Posted by Turion (here)
    Let me make one last statement before I give up completely on this forum and the folks here. It is my hope that you are honorable men and your desire is nothing more than to prevent folks from being hoodwinked by film flam artists, and for that reason you are skeptical of both what I posted here and my intent. I did not like the tone of some of the comments made, but perhaps I am reading more into it than was intended. I showed a simple experiment with two capacitors and a load connected between them.

    My claim is this: That you can move electricity (please, let's not haggle about terms) from a source of higher potential THROUGH a LOAD to a lower potential without USING UP that electricity in the process. That is the ONLY thing my simple experiment was designed to prove. You start with 25 volts. You run the light as the electricity moves from one capacitor to the other, yet you STIL HAVE 25 volts when the capacitors have equalized. I realize this is a small experiment, but to say that running loads (and I have run BIG ONES) off the potential difference without using any of it up, is of TREMENDOUS value. If you cannot SEE that or refuse to believe it is possible, then I will be on my way.
    Yes, all that is fair enough. Not a problem there. The issue lies in a lack of distinction between voltage and energy, and once that distinction is added in, the result doesn't appear all that exciting. Maintaining voltage isn't the same as augmenting overall energy. While a few posts may have seemed a bit snappy, it is this distinction that they are trying to inform you about.

    You don't necessarily need to leave due to this, people are allowed to disagree and allowed to present their expertise on the matter. Avalon is as much if not more a wondrous place to learn as it is a place to teach. We have some brilliant minds here and sometimes throwing on the "student hat" has more value than trying to hold on to the "teacher's hat" Just my two cents, give it some thought!
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 19th June 2017 at 23:23.
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    wnlight,

    This is all about using electricity that is moving from a high potential to a low potential. In a solar system you REALLY can take advantage of this. The first thing I will tell you is that if you try to do this with 7 1/2 amp hour batteries, your results will be less than spectacular. Smaller batteries have MUCH HIGHER impedance than large deep cycle batteries, and energy is wasted trying to charge them. Energy is also wasted trying to charge batteries that are being discharged at the same time. Energy is also wasted trying to charge batteries that have been discharging and haven't been given an opportunity to rest. The ions are moving in a specific direction for a while, and you have to expend energy to slow the ions down, stop them, and reverse their direction. So large deep cycle batteries are a MUST if you are going to build a successful system.

    Just as an example, I run a 12 volt electric motor. Here is how I set it up. Four batteries. (more are better because some can be resting after charging or discharging) Two highest charged batteries connected in series. This leaves you with a positive and a negative terminal free The other two batteries connected in parallel. Connect the negative of the batteries in series to the negative of one of the two batteries connected in parallel. The positive of the motor is connected to the positive of the two batteries in series. The negative of the motor is connected to either of the positives of the two batteries in parallel. The motor is running between the positives. Just like the light did with the capacitor. The two batteries in series will go down in voltage while the two batteries in parallel will go up in voltage. If/when one of the two batteries in series drops below 12.2 volts stop OR if/when either of the batteries in parallel rises to 14.2 volts stop. Then connect the two batteries that have been in series in parallel and the two batteries that have been in parallel in series, run the motor again, and recharge the batteries you just ran down by sending the electricity back the other way. Keep switching back and forth. With a stock, off the shelf electric motor, you will get extended run times. With a pulse motor (which you have to build or buy) you will get MUCH longer run times because when the coil collapses it sends out a spark that actually helps charge the batteries. Stock motors have their internal coil windings fiddled with to eliminate back EMF and are not as efficient. YES THE BATTERIES WILL EVENTUALLY RUN DOWN, but you get MUCH longer run times. There are other things I do that involve boost modules to keep the voltage up and other things, but this is a simple system that will work and you can SEE it work.

    I have run 12 volt electric motors between the positives not HUNDREDS of times, but THOUSANDS of times.
    Last edited by Turion; 20th June 2017 at 00:46.

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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    The issue lies in a lack of distinction between voltage and energy, and once that distinction is added in, the result doesn't appear all that exciting. Maintaining voltage isn't the same as augmenting overall energy.
    Yes.

    The two capacitors in the first thought experiment (when they were equalized down to 12.5 volts each, without illuminating the bulb during that phase) presumably held less remaining energy (by a little bit) than the two capacitors in the second thought experiment (when they were equalized down to 12.5 volts each while illuminating the bulb). The 12.5 volt measurement is not a measure of how much remaining available energy is stored in the capacitors, but a measure of the charge on the capacitors.

    A large lead-acid battery with a nominal 12 volts of charge will hold far more energy than a typical 18V 1.5Ah NiCd power tool Battery, over 2672 watt-hours vs 27 watt-hours. Notice that fewer volts (12 vs 18) provide almost 100 times the watt-hours of stored energy available (2672 vs 27). I got the 2672 from the specs on that first linked page, by multiplying 12 volts times 8 amperes times 1670 minutes, divided by 60 to convert minutes to hours. I got the 27 from the specs on the second linked page, by multiplying 18 volts times 1.5 amp-hours.

    The total energy available for work (such as illuminating bulbs) in a capacitor is the product of (1) the capacitor's charge, such as 12.5 volts, times (2) the quantity of charge available to draw from the capacitors.

    On way to measure this energy would be to integrate over the time of discharging or equalizing the charges on the capacitors, the product of the (1) the voltage difference between the two capacitors, times (2) the current flowing between the capacitors or one capacitor and ground.

    In short, total energy can be measured as the product of voltage, current, and time, where the voltage and current both vary with time, hence that means an integral over time of the power (voltage times the current.)
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Quote Posted by Turion (here)
    I have run 12 volt electric motors between the positives not HUNDREDS of times, but THOUSANDS of times.
    If one way of doing things, such as you describe, allows you to run a motor many more times than some other (less well described) way of running the same motor, then that tells me you're getting less work done per unit time (motor running slower, perhaps) or wasting less energy in the battery internals, in the the first way.

    Until one models the various, dynamically changing, motor load, RPM and temperature, and the also changing battery temperatures, currents, voltages, and impedance, for both methods, and more over validates that model with good measurements, one won't have a good explanation for why one method seems to run the motor much longer than the other. Battery impedance and capacity are quite sensitive to internal battery temperature, for example.

    This experiment no more proves the existence of (nearly) "free energy" than does Zeno's Paradox prove that I can out run Usain Bolt.

    Your telling us that you've been "researching energy and electricity for over 25 years" or that you have "tried for 10 years to make this information available", is making out your work to be of more value than it is. When at the same time, after all these years, you still have (or at least are still writing) basic confusions as to what are volts and amps, power (watts) and energy (Joules, kwh, ...), and such, you are wasting our time.

    I hope you stop wasting our time.
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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Your wish is my command. I am gone.

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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    Before you go Turion, I have a suggestion. If you feel your encounter here has not been up to your expectations, I strongly suggest you present your findings to a more receptive group. There are plenty of serious electronics forums, and then there's the free-energy alternative groups.

    If you're really on to something they will be more than willing to explore your ideas.

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    Default Re: Theory of how to use Electricity

    I applaud the patience I saw on this thread, a person with a strongly held belief paired with little to no understanding of ego will consider information contrary to that belief as not a "helpful hand from a friend" but as an attack that must be defended.

    As we've seen here.


    It is very difficult to be open and humble when anonymous. Don't be afraid to take an offered hand.
    Last edited by TargeT; 20th June 2017 at 13:42.
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