US B52H can deploy AGM-86 nuclear equipped cruise missiles

[Bob]

I think your comment Jake although sincere something it seems to me, that maybe Putin would not want in your opinion "thinking for him" so to speak, I don't think anyone can predict Putin.. ; but as the UN Security Council has stated N.K has to be de-nuclearized. There is no way to do it otherwise. Putin may even help to do that. I don't think anybody has a crystal ball what Xi or Putin will want to do to muzzle/neutralize N.K.

(and Jake, it's not "Bob's standards" re: your last post; the UN Security Council says N.K's nuclear capabilities, (denuclearization) has to happen, not mine bro.. let's keep things in focus please.. OK? )

The ONLY devices (that is a function of DEPTH in the earth, HARNDESS (resistance to conventional attack by convention normal explosive weapons, such as the ridiculous "Syrian cruise missile pinprick") that can do what the UN Security Council wants (unanimously again pointing that out for those who forget that...) That is SCIENCE based on ENERGY needed to remove the buried bunkers, nothing else can do it, technically. That is the justification, not somebody's "wishes for or against" using such.

IS it the use of nuclear bunker busters, the appropriate method to take out the N.K. infrastructure which would defend against heavy bombers.. with B2A's with deep penetrating 350K Ton nuclear bunker busters to get deep to remove the hidden nukes and centrifuges?.. such are the CORRECT TOOLS, when looks at the energy needed to penetrate deeply a highly fortified bunker... I don't think the US would use anything other than the correct tools for the job at hand, to follow the UN Security Council instructions to DE-NUCLEARIZE N.K.

That tool, the bunkerbuster nuke is the only way to do it. The UN would expect the US to be the most well equipped country capable of carrying out ITS wishes.

As Harley pointed out the US is between two rocks and two hard places, but the UN is saying, N.K has to be dealt with, and DE-NUCLEARIZED..

That is what is being ignored by making the US the bad guy for slapping back a psychopathic monster. At least it seems to me in my most humble opinion.

I find it hilarious to think that one can negotiate with a demonstrated clearly psychopathic "monstrosity" who takes it's country's GNP from its population, who starves them, to build nukes is going to sit still and say sure UN, we are all bettah now, we will not harm anyone, not even our people, or our Chinese heritage military (executing them to create a pure Kim Jung Korean lineage). Russia can use lip service all it wants, saying negotiate..

Harley pointed out quite well (brilliantly a matter of fact btw), the US with past Presidents, let the monstrosity in N.K grow. And the world is seeing the result. It is obvious to me, where "negotiations" gets one.. It buys time for them to build a formidable weapons of mass destructions system.. I can see this clearly, why is it so hard for others to connect the dots?

From Jayke, post # 20
I've got a strong feeling the UK won't be getting taken down by the N.K anytime soon...99.999% certain, there's always that niggly 00.001% though I suppose.

How can any american seriously justify a nuclear retaliation based on territorial aggression alone? How many times did American planes aggress into Syrian airspace? Trumps tomahawk missiles taking out a Syrian runway?

By Bobs standards Russia would be justified to defend its allies and wipe out the USA, based on US territorial aggression, but thankfully the Russians understand what diplomacy is well enough to exhaust all other options before launching any nuclear retaliatory strikes. To promote any kind of nuclear retaliatory response is absurd, and extremely hypocritical coming from any American 'insiders'.

There is NO mention of UK being taken down by N.K. ICBM attack. THERE is conjecture that N.K. has Nuclear EMP orbiting satellites which could EMP US/Canada or UK or western Europe.

[Jayke]

Posted by Bob (here)
When a villain in N. Korea destroys its citizens lives, threatens continually it's neighbors, keeping the population impoverished, taking the GNP of the country and building nuclear weapons, and creates for instance numerous war systems to take out S. Korea, or for that matter, threaten all of the Asian western pacific islands, with a dictatorial take-over, it seems to me those who let villain's (read psychopaths) have a continual a free reign are feigning their worldly responsibility to look after their fellow mankind.

It's been demonstrated that allowing monstrosities who do such things to their population, keep them in hunger to create a military regime will not ever end well. In the meantime there are casualties in those who defend human rights against such monstrosities. I don't see that can be avoided. Nobody has shown that the monstrosity running N.K. has any hope of rescinding their actions, behavior or future actions. It is what it is.

The phrase 'pot calling kettle black' springs to mind...gotta love American exceptionalism! (Even if it's the UN saying it and Bobs just the relaying the message-no offence meant for you Bob, it's the hypocrisy of the message itself coming from the US and UN that needs to be addressed) Swap out N.K. For US in those above qouted paragraphs and how are those two countries really any different?

I don't disagree that N.K is a danger, and I'm certainly not trying to 'think for putin'. I do however trust Russia and China to de-escalate the situation responsibly (despite Americas continued interventions to escalate, escalate, ESCALATE...as rapidly and as quickly as possible )

Russia and China have too much invested in this for them to see it all go up in smoke. I'm sure Americans would feel very safe after their latest pantomime 'villain' has been wiped out by the mighty American heroes (isn't that just kindergarten level propoganda?) but I also see how fear around this situation is being artificially heightened to stir up support for more American deep state dictatorial take-overs of their own. And that's why people aren't connecting the dots, the US has cried wolf with 'weapons of mass destruction' far too many times, the rest of the world no longer trusts ANYTHING US or UN intelligence analysis tells us...all we hear are the demented screams of a 'monstrously' psychopathic military industrial complex clamouring for boosted profits with more war rhetoric.

I do look forward to hearing Putins methods for de-escalating the situation though, the way he de-escalated the situation in Syria was masterful on many levels, certainly knocked the crazy US backed jihadis off the chessboard on that one...I trust they'll handle the NK situation with just as much tact and foresight...

[Praxis]

Bob. Consider NKs position.

For many many many many years, the US has been running drills with SK to prepare to defend or attack NK. Every year, we do these drills.

WE crush the country with sanctions, which only really hurts the plebs not patricians, and constantly call them names in public.


Imagine if Canada and UK, every year did drills in Toronto and Quebec practicing the invasion scenario of the US. IMagine the UK and EURO put sanctions on America for developing weapons that the US sees as necessary as Canada and The UK are running those drills.


Given the US history since ww2, would you trust US? Kim is thinking about Qaddafi, Hussein, Assad, Alliende, Arbenz, Mossadegh, LaMumba



The whole NK thing is just prepping for something. Did you see the most recent corbett video about the gold back Yuan to buy oil.


That is why we are shifting to NK.

[Bob]

I am so glad to hear your positive thoughts Jake. Keep them comin ! ROFL also my good friend.. ! Love your "laughable" in the title thread in Current News ! By all means keep it up, I am delightfully watching the dialog there too. It's pretty well known the history from Stalin, Lenin, Gorbachev on and on.. who is being a thug and who isn't... Newbies may not have had a chance to grow up during war times, nor have had to deal with VietNam or Korean conflagrations in the past.. Getting solid research obviously is important, not the PR coming out of the psyops organizations or their writers... eh? IMHO of course.

Oh yeah let's not forget the bald headed leader who took off his shoe to pound and say WE WILL BURY YOU and then Kennedy had to bring this to a head, where Nuclear worldwide destruction would happen from a "kindly (sic) psycopathic Russian 'gentleman' ", the perspective seems to be lost when the newbies forget to look at REAL history where Russia was quite a nasty entity, threatening world safety and security.. Look up Khrushchev (the psychopath Khrushchev - https://books.google.com/books?id=DW...shchev&f=false) its a good read... Again I find it humorous that newbies have lost history.. but that is how psyops works... bury the past.. spin the future.. isn't it?

In the OP post one
the mention of INFRASTRUCTURE, specifically military INFRASTRUCTURE what it means.

"Defense Infrastructure. The buildings and permanent installations necessary for the support, deployment, and operation of a nation's military constitute its defense infrastructure."

As NK has buried such structures, not like the Syrian Fiasco that president Trump launched with cruise missile attacks, many of them "falling into the sea" or missing their targets, the specif missile mentioned in the OP and the title, has a good track record. Nobody is expecting a NUKE to just be left sitting on N.K. farms..

"

Defense Infrastructure

The buildings and permanent installations necessary for the support, deployment, and operation of a nation's military constitute its defense infrastructure. RAND research has examined the structure and needs of U.S. and allied military facilities, provided recommendations concerning base realignment, and investigated ways to maximize the capabilities and utilization of existing resources and to define future infrastructure needs.

ref: https://www.rand.org/topics/defense-infrastructure.html

Kim is begging for war - http://www.newsweek.com/nikki-haley-...h-korea-659338

“The time for half measures in the security council is over. The time has come to exhaust all of our diplomatic means before it is too late. We must now adopt the strongest possible measures. Kim Jong Un’s action cannot be seen as defensive,”

Watching Putin's PR media talking heads is amusing as watching the CNN's talking heads..

I think I may bring up in another thread the use of Psyops by Governments, and terrorists and terrorist sympathisers.. It's been quite documented, very extensively by a very well respected PhD'd professor.. way above "my pay grade" as they say.. It's called INFLUENCE WARFARE - and the Russians have been pretty good at it. Al Jazeera comes in second, and the US third - see Fight to Shape Perceptions in a War of Ideas James J. F. Forest ... When one reads the books, Forest makes these wanna-be laughable jokesters look like newbies, IMHO of course

[Jayke]

I'm well up on the Influence Warfare - (hard power, soft power, smart power)

The problem the US has got is that they're relying primarily on hard power (threats of violence) to push their influence in the world. Russia has nailed the soft power card (using cultural values of peace, sovereignty and collaboration to win over the hearts and minds of would be aggressors), China is running with the smart power card, they're using their technology and mega-projects to bring about prosperity for the countries around them.

If America focused more on promoting positive cultural values and did more to sponsor peace and prosperity in the world then maybe other countries would be taking their continued threats and cries for war more seriously. But when hard power is the only card you've got up your sleeve, countries that just want peace, are one-by-one turning their backs on that kind of violence.

[Bob]

Jake my good buddy and highly astute friend.., it's the SECURITY COUNCIL, the UN that is giving the US the go ahead.. The rallying is all the others out there who want to have their edge in world domination, and "ace out" the US from it's world domination, will either support the UN to de-nuclearize N.K. or they will denigrate the UN.. the US of course is high on the UN list.. But, that the US is to be the instrument is what I find interesting, and quite disheartening.. Considering the information programming all the skabbies do (all of them, US included), to make them seem like the best there is over all others..

Nobody wants nuke war. BUT using the nuke tools is what is needed to get into and take out the nuke weapons coming out of NK.. So who is gonna do it? India? They have the nukes that can do it but not the planes, not enough nuke capable cruise devices. NK wants to push buttons. UN says dude, u are doing it all wrong, not playing by the world's rules..

So what's gonna happen ? A hand slap, some curious dialogues by Russian talking heads, or maybe Chinese talking heads, trying to trigger newbies into jumping up and down and create some protests? I find it laughable if that is the case.. the media presentation is hardly gaining any traction, really. IMHO of course.

== update ==

Jake - PS, I love your observation that the US is relying on HARD POWER. It is obvious that the US is not the best expert in SOFT POWER manipulative tit-for-tat negotiations.. Our Henry Kissinger, was the expert of that and gees, the poor guy is so much into being a retire-eee... All we have is the bull in the china shoppe mentality to meet the bull in the china shop mentality of the psychopathic NK rulership. That's where the tit-for-tat comes in.. The NK guy exhibits sociopathic symptoms and acts psychopathic. That is the issue, not how the US chooses to meet psychopathy with a kid glove kiss on the "cheek".. Like what Russia would do to promise lavish gifts while the ruler cow-tow's to the current ruler. I should show you some-day the Chinese manipulation techniques, in how they "help" a nation build up some needed infrastructure for let's say minerals, at which point China swoops in and takes over majority control.. We could see similar actions with Russia.. These guys play an awful type of hardball, and it's not what newbies tend to see.. Psyops is tailored to newbies, those who can't research, or won't research or won't take the time to figure out why they are being triggered one way or another.. IMHO of course ...

[Jayke]

And in what time frame do you suggest the nukes will begin to fall on N.K. based on the big nuclear thumbs up the UN 'Security Council' has given to their delegates? I best get my popcorn ready because it's going to be one hell of a firework display by the sounds of it!

My money's on no nukes being dropped anytime soon...

[Bob]

Posted by Jayke (here)
And in what time frame do you suggest the nukes will begin to fall on N.K. based on the big nuclear thumbs up the UN 'Security Council' has given to their delegates? I best get my popcorn ready because it's going to be one hell of a firework display by the sounds of it!

My money's on no nukes being dropped anytime soon...

Popcorn is NOT what I would suggest. This is a tragedy in the making.. Making LIGHT OF it is not what I would do ever..

The point of this thread in my opinion is to state what the US has, and is quite capable of carrying out the UN security council's vision of de-nuclearizing N.K.

As has been pointed out by Tillerson, and the US state department, all the soft style negotiations methods have failed. The US will not kiss cheeks with the "Kim", and it appears will carry out the UN security council's wishes at some time, when it is decided that time is "now", I have no idea. As we can't determine what Putin is thinkin, nor can we determine what Trump is thinkin..

What can be pointed out, the US has the tools to do the job to de-nuclearize N.K. And no doubt the UN blessings to do such.. What does that mean exactly I have NO CLUE. I consider it a tragedy, a very awful tragedy that NK would potentially want to destroy another.. That i find abhorrent. Personally completely.. Do you feel that way? Do you think somebody like "Kim" would think destroying his population for personal goals is the right thing to do? I think that is abhorrent.. I think I am clear, I am an observer and someone able to take an assessment of the technology needed to do a job. Politician, kissing cheeks, and kow-towing? Naw.. I can't get into that head.. Soft psyops to me is abhorrent.. You?

[Jayke]

Well if time is of the essence then making light is exactly what I would do. There's already too many dark clouds around in the world. The more people that gain a little enlightenment, the less likely any nuclear wars would ever be fought...

Psyops and counter psyops, the intricate nature of untangling the beast of psychology can be a messy operation for sure...

And your input into the various technological apparatus of different countries is always appreciated...like you say, I just hope and trust these countries will never be given the impetus or justification for using them...

[Bob]

Posted by Jayke (here)
Well if time is of the essence then making light is exactly what I would do. There's already too many dark clouds around in the world. The more people that gain a little enlightenment, the less likely any nuclear wars would ever be fought...

I certainly hope lightness across the board, laughter really is a solution... I have never seen it work tho with bull-in-the-china-shoppe mentality (aka trump has no political experience...)

In the other thread, I pointed out my heebie geebies.. that there are potentially nuke emp devices orbiting overhead. I can't shake that feeling, and I don't know why, that is what worries me Jake.. I certainly will try lightness and joy, but I can't shake the data about the satellite(s) and enhanced (EMP) devices NK most likely obtained from so called "peaceful Russia"...

[Spiral]

Posted by Bob (here)

Posted by Spiral (here)
How is turning NK to ash going to be anything but a disaster for SK if nukes are used ?

What about all the underground artillery NK has in the mountains facing SK ready to destroy Seoul ?

How do they justify murdering millions ? Or has Hollywood done such a good job of entrenching the BS "good guys vs bad guys" meme in everyone's mind that such a consideration is moot ?

B-2A stealth (the last picture in the op post 1, is equipped with 350 kiloton bunkerbusters. A 50 kiloton bunker buster is the equivalent of a 150 kiloton air burst.. A 350 k-ton bunker buster then is designed to get all the deepest N.K tunnels and command centers. There is even a marine version of this to go after their subs. I think I heard that S. Korea would be the casualty of war.. The S. Koreans have asked for tactical nukes to be deployed in their country. They won't go down without a fight. There are no winners, just losers, but the N.K. threat would be eliminated and a message sent to IRAN, that they would be next, no doubt, the strike would be initiated from Israel.. Just a hunch watching the feedback on the "inside" lines..

The B-52H cruise missile strikes would be launched to deal with any infrastructure, and defenses before the B-2A's destroyed the deep embedded tunnels/facilities. There would be cruise missiles from sea coming in as well..

The N.K. subs would be taken out pretty fast, no doubt their locations have been mapped pretty accurately. I suspect air to water nukes would be used instead of nuke torpedoes.. I don't think the US wants it's subs anywhere near the N. K. subs, as they would most likely be deployed throughout the US allies interests to protect them.

As to murdering "millions" of S. Koreans, N.K. since the beginning has been pretty adamant about doing just that. Stopping them before they do it to more than S. K. is what it seems is the UN's security Council's intent. Unanimous btw at that.. S.K. knows it's been living under that shadow for many many years. It's only been a matter of time before the N.K. "management" looses all sensibility and acts fully irrationally, that the clock strikes 12..

So if the US used those weapons on the tunnel networks just the far side of the border what would be the fate of the poor people of Seoul ?

Fallujah on steroids !

Not a legacy anyone would be able to wash away as a crime against humanity.

[Justplain]

I think what many of us are concerned about with American foreign policy in general, and regarding N.K. in particular, is that the purported 'issues' cited by American authorities are historically prone to be fabricated false flags. To name a few, the 'weapons of mass destruction' horse manure for the second Iraq war, 9/11 (dont try to tell me that jihadis with boxcutters brought down the twin towers, let alone building 7 or the pentagon!) used as an excuse to invade Afganistan and the gulf of tonkin incident (another pile of horse manure) used to escalate the viet nam war. If you go a bit further and look at how American corporate fascist interests are furthered in the developing world, as outlined in 'the confessions of an economic hitman' one sees a hideous gangster intelligence aparatus pervaying bribery, blackmail and assasination world wide. The obvious results of this are the 'coupe' against the socialist Salvatore Allende in Chile decades ago, or the destabilization of the Australian government as outlined in the film 'the Falcon and the Snowman'. The thread of deceit that underlies the financing and arming of ISIS points directly to the American intelligence agencies via Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Look at the smoking crater left behind in Libya by American destabilization, once a model country for economic stability, now run by factions of al quada. Hearing the American media bleat about Russian interference in US politics is so ironically funny when seeing how American foreign policy and intelligence agencies are constantly interfering in other countries internal affairs, current examples being Venezuela and the Ukraine.

So, to be quite frank, the USA has absolutely no credibility when accusing other nations of misbehaviour. I dont believe Russia or China are any better, but the Americans are the masters of false flags and propaganda.

What to do about North Korea? I dunno, bribe them to step away, like offer them so much stuff just to let someone neutral to come in and decommission everything. That looks like the only solution.

[Spiral]

This is a very interesting article about NK & the USA's position in the area by F. William Engdahl

In the end of the 1990’s I had the chance occasion to have a chat with the late James R. Lilley. Lilley was at the Davos World Economic Forum and by chance had sat at my dinner table together with a delegation from the China Peoples’ Liberation Army. As I was the only westerner at the table he struck up a conversation, and as he saw I was more than conversant in global politics, he began talking, perhaps more than he should have with one he did not know.

James R. Lilley was no outsider. A member, together with his close friend, George H.W. Bush, of the infamous Yale University Skull & Bones secret society, Lilley served some three decades at the CIA along with Bush. Both Lilley and Bush were US Ambassadors to China.

Lilley’s term in Beijing coincided with the May-June 1989 Tiananmen Square student protests. I have reason to believe he played the key US role in orchestrating that clash between thousands of protesting students and the Chinese government as one of Washington’s early Color Revolution attempts to destabilize communist China simultaneously with the CIA’s role in destabilizing the Soviet Union.

Read the rest at https://journal-neo.org/2016/11/01/n...-vassal-state/

Quite a lot to ponder on !

[Bob]

China itself has said they will ATTACK (and destroy N.Korea's nuclear facilities), should N.Korea "cross their red line"..

China Threatens To Bomb North Korea's Nuclear Facilities If It Crosses Beijing's "Bottom Line"


“China has a bottom line that it will protect at all costs, that is, the security and stability of northeast China...

"If the bottom line is touched, China will employ all means available including the military means to strike back.

"By that time, it is not an issue of discussion whether China acquiesces in the US’ blows, but the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) will launch attacks to DPRK nuclear facilities on its own."

"This, as the editorial puts it, is the "bottom line" for China; should it be crossed China will employ all means available including the military means to strike back," warned the editorial.

ref: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...jings-bottom-l

There is no kid gloves approach with N.Korea, as the world is saying ENOUGH.

The nonsense being promulgated "across the board" that this is a sole US viewpoint is pure balderdash.

China will make quick remediation of N.K.'s nuclear facilities without hesitation.

[Bob]

An article from the N.Y. Post says - "take them out, now.."

When we’re threatened with nuclear destruction by North Korea, a military response is not unethical.

Rather, inviting a North Korean attack by hesitating endlessly — then witnessing the slaughter of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of our citizens — would be unethical and immoral.

We do not want war. That much could not be more obvious.

But we cannot sacrifice American lives to shield the consciences of intellectual elites who, from protected positions of immense privilege, insist that all human life is precious, not just our “deplorable” American lives.

If there is any real hope of a peaceful solution, of course that would be preferable. But we cannot rely on miracles or mirages.

A generation of talks has done nothing but protect North Korea’s weapons programs. Sanctions haven’t restrained North Korea either, since China, Russia, India and other states undercut them.

http://nypost.com/2017/09/04/we-need...-its-too-late/

Nor have our displays of force in the region done anything to deter a regime conditioned to our empty pageantry.

North Korea doesn’t believe we will act. Because we never have acted.

Those wildly misnamed Washington institutions labeled “think tanks” find themselves stumped: Conditioned to group-think and addicted to that supreme intellectual opiate, negotiations, we hear — even from conservative voices — that there’s no military solution, while the left repeats that “War never changes anything.”

As to the latter claim, warfare has been humanity’s ultimate means of resolving intractable issues since the first cave-dwellers went at the gang from the cave down yonder with rocks. We may not like it — I don’t — but to insist that war isn’t humanity’s sometimes-necessary default means of survival is to ignore all of human history.

As for the irresponsible claim that there’s no military solution, it’s transparently false.

Of course there’s a military solution. It’s horrible, but pulling triggers may be the only option feckless diplomats and prevaricating administrations have left us to protect our people and territory.

"Again, the primary rationale for our government’s existence is to protect us from physical harm at the hands of foreign powers. That’s why we have a military. We are promised “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” not a spineless calculus that protects our enemies rather than ourselves.

"If someone screams that they’re going to kill us and points a gun toward us, we have the legal and ethical right to draw and fire first."

As seen, Liberals will foam at the mouth, they always do, their creativity in purportedly "convincing" to find some heart-strings to tug on emotionally.. dialog is humorous and not unexpected

"I realize this column will leave liberals aghast, while even conservatives cling to lullaby chatter. I do not relish death or human suffering. But it would be immoral to allow North Korea to develop an arsenal capable of attacking our military, our cities and our allies.

"How could it be ethically superior and morally correct to permit a self-declared and virulent enemy to destroy Honolulu, San Diego and Seattle?

"We cannot allow moral relativism to butcher Americans. We must deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. And in the real world, the greatest immorality in war is not killing the enemy. The greatest immorality would be for our country to lose.

by Ralph Peters

[Jayke]

Ralph Peters is a neocon military industrial complex mouthpiece, thanks again Bob for highlighting how absurd their rhetoric is...this article below was posted in 2006, looks like Ralph Peters has a history of beating the war drum for the neocon agenda. I guess the guy is always foaming at the mouth for another villain whose country they can kill, murder and maim.

This following article was written by Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired)
.................................................................................................... ..........

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/10/4/253499/-

I once again find myself aghast at the illogical warmongering rhetoric of Ralph Peters. Retired U.S. Army lieutenant colonel Peters is a novelist and an essayist whose columns appear in Rupert Murdoch's New York Post. He is also a member of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), the neoconservative think tank that talked America into its present woebegone war in Iraq

In his latest piece for the Armed Forces Journal titled "The hearts-and-minds myth," Peters argues, "Sorry, but winning means killing."
As to the proper course to take in our present "war" on terror, Peters says:
We need to grasp the basic truth that the path to winning the hearts and minds of the masses leads over the corpses of the violent minority. As for humanitarianism, the most humane thing we can do is to win our long struggle against fanaticism and terrorism. That means killing terrorists and fanatics.

Peters is right to the extent that war involves killing, and that killing people is not the method of choice for getting them to like you.
But like so many of his neocon cronies, Peters neglects to mention that when you make two or more terrorists for every one that you kill, you're going to have to kill a heck of a lot of people to "win." In fact, you'll have to kill darn near every one of "them," whoever "they" are.

And what will you have "won?"

Kristol's Dogs of War

Peters is a luminary in the stable of neoconservative military commentators who are still trying to cover their sixes for getting America entangled in Iraq. Bill Kristol, PNAC co-founder and publisher of The Weekly Standard was one of the first neocons to throw Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld under the proverbial bus when things started going south in Iraq, saying in December 2004 that our soldiers "deserve a better defense secretary than the one we have."

Kristol seldom mentions that Rumsfeld was onboard the PNAC when it crafted the Iraq invasion policy, and that the PNAC was on board with Rumsfeld's vision to "transform" the Army into a lighter, faster force (see PNAC's Rebuilding America's Defenses, published in September 2000).

Kristol, Peters, and other PNACers like Robert Kagan and Charles Krauthammer are scrambling to save their beloved ideology. They pictured an American global hegemony established and sustained through armed force. History's best-trained, best-equipped military's failure to achieve America's national aims in Afghanistan and Iraq should proven their vision delusional, but these guys are tenacious--the dreams of megalomaniacs die hard.

So it's no real surprise that the neocons, desperate to prove that armed conflict can yet be salvaged as an effective instrument of national power, are egging America into another war with Iran. In a saner age, by this point, the neocon PNACers would have been booed off the stage. Unfortunately, the autistic right is still listening to them, and actually taking them seriously.

Neoconservative punditry is following a predictable formula: ludicrous comparisons of the "war" on terror with World War II, fear and hate rhetoric, sloganeering, bandwagonning and, most importantly, blaming their past failures on the usual scapegoats--sissy "defeatists" the "hostile" liberal media, the Clintons, etc.

All of which masks the underlying principle of neoconservative strategy and policy: Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!...

One would think that having vanquished Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and the dreaded Soviet Union, America could think of a better strategy to serve its interests than one that can be summarized in a single word.

But one has to remember that our policy "think" tanks are infested with the likes of Ralph Peters, and they still have the ear of the most powerful man in the world--PNAC charter member Dick Cheney.

.................................................................................................... ..

Like I've said before, the neocons have cried wolf so many times that their continued war rhetoric only appeals the simple-minded folks who froth at the mouth for seeing things 'go boom'... (Hillary Clintons maniacal phrase 'we came, we saw, he died' springs to mind--another sociopath in the neocon club)

[Bob]

Seems to me the INTERPRETATION of Ralph Peters' News Media articles (NY Post media) from 2006 (above mentioned in Jayke's post) was bloviated by somebody from their forum/blog site called "Jeff Huber"

Seeing this guy's stats:

Jeff Huber Joined in 2005

Total Followers
104
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On Wednesday Oct 04, 2006 Jeff Huber started "foaming at the mouth himself" stating "his opinion" at https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/10/4/253499/- (Ralph Peters predicted such things would happen, and has reminded us time and time again, and you can see in Huber's writing, how much froth Huber himself puts forth.)

And Huber's out of context, out of historical time accuracy, post was apparently used to "explain" the current NY Post writer Ralph Peters' 2017 statements about US should not sit on it's hands again, after N.K.'s recent hydrogen bomb detonation and threats to destroy the US and it's allies.

Naw I don't buy Jeff Huber's comments, satires or drama. This guy was a flight commander and was operations officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, who died at age 57 who took up writing to slam the US Military and the US defense system. The same website who hosted his "Ralph Peters' " slam calls Jeff Huber a Kossack. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...ack-Jeff-Huber

His weekly satires on U.S. foreign policy high jinks are archived at his blog, Pen and Sword. Jeff's critically applauded novel Bathtub Admirals, a lampoon of America's rise to global dominance

Huber's claim to fame was to despise and denigrate the US Military, those involved with the defense of America and the policies of defense "in-general" and he frequently used SATIRE to try to keep his barbed attacks under the radar. He would have had in my opinion reading his material, that the US kow-tow to China, Russia, the Taliban in a blink of an eye. This guy played "INFORMATION WARFARE" against his readers to attack the US. I have no doubt he had only one intent, to weaken the US and it's allies and to allow international thugs (read thuggery) free reign.

Huber enjoyed writing at AntiWar dot com and daily Kos who apparently were the only places which appealed to him for his anti-US messages.

What is dailyKos?
Daily Kos. Daily Kos (/ˈkoʊs/ kohs) is a group blog and internet forum focused on liberal American politics. ... It was founded in 2002 by Markos Moulitsas and takes the name Kos from the last syllable of his first name, his nickname while in the military. Daily Kos is an outlet for Political Blogging. It functions as a discussion forum and group blog for a variety of netroots activists. It is sometimes tilted towards the reactionary left wing of the audience. Review from SiteJabber: "12 reviews for Dailykos, 1.8 stars: "Daily Kos is not worthy of reading. It is fake news. " "Sep 12, 2015 - Daily Kos founder and Vox co-founder Markos Moulitsas has a history of maliciously smearing conservatives."

I think I prefer Ralph Peters' view that the US has a right to defend itself, as do her allies.

I can clearly see the difference between a bloviated "screaming" Jeff Huber blog and a well composed N.Y. Post article written by Ralph Peters. Huber's material is seriously written in a matter to attempt to elicit "emotion and drama", where Peters article states a logical defense posture, protecting one's family (self and neighbors/allies).

ref: Kossack Name Meaning. Germanized spelling of Slavic Kozak, either an ethnic name for a Cossack, or a nickname for an aggressive or ferocious person.

[Harley]

Well since the conversation has taken a 'slight turn' from the op, here's a piece of relevant news.

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Mexico Expels North Korean Ambassador Over Nuclear Tests

SEPTEMBER 7, 2017

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - The Mexican government on Thursday said it had declared the North Korean ambassador to Mexico persona non grata in protest at the country’s nuclear tests, an unusually firm step that moved it closely into line with Washington.

In a statement, the government said it had given Kim Hyong Gil 72 hours to leave Mexico in order to express its “absolute rejection” of North Korea’s recent nuclear activity, describing it as a grave threat to the region and the world.

Mexico has traditionally sought to steer clear of diplomatic ructions, but in the past few months it has adopted robust language to condemn the governments of Venezuela and North Korea as they descended into increasing international isolation.

Facing a rocky relationship with U.S. President Donald Trump due to his threats to tear up the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), Mexico has backed him diplomatically on issues that imply no great political cost for the government.

“North Korea’s nuclear activity is a serious risk for international peace and security and represents a growing threat to nations in the region, including fundamental allies of Mexico like Japan and South Korea,” the Mexican government said.

Mexico’s step follows a tide of international condemnation of North Korea for repeated missile launches in recent weeks that intensified again following a nuclear test on Sunday.

An official at the Mexican foreign ministry noted, however, that President Enrique Pena Nieto’s government was not breaking diplomatic ties with North Korea.

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And here is another slightly older one.

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North Korea: Australia Would Support United States In Conflict, Malcolm Turnbull Says

Updated 10 Aug 2017

Key points:

* Mr Turnbull says the ANZUS treaty would be invoked if the US and North Korea go to war

* PM spoke to US Vice-President overnight, discussing "the most dangerous flashpoint in the world today"

*Tough new sanctions could force the regime to abandon its nuclear weapons program, PM says

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says if North Korea launches an attack on the United States, Australia will join the conflict.

The Trump administration has escalated its rhetoric against North Korea, after the rogue regime threatened to attack the US territory of Guam in the Pacific.

"America stands by its allies, including Australia of course, and we stand by the United States," Mr Turnbull told 3AW.

"So be very, very clear on that. If there's an attack on the US, the ANZUS Treaty would be invoked and Australia would come to the aid of the United States, as America would come to our aid if we were attacked."

To read full article, please click HERE

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[Bob]

ICBM's really are a relic of the past (Inter-continental-ballistic-Missile)

ref: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...missiles-15391

from Why America Needs Lethal Nuclear Stealth Cruise Missiles

The Pentagon is insisting that it needs to develop the Long Range Stand-Off (LRSO) nuclear-tipped cruise missile to assure America’s nuclear deterrent against Russia and China.

“I think it’s absolutely critical that we have an LRSO, not only for the new B-21 but also for the B-2 and B-52.

"And that is largely because of the ever increasing anti-access/area-denial that we are facing,” Gen. Robin Rand, commander of the Air Force Global Strike Command, told the House Armed Services Committee’s strategic forces subcommittee on March 2. “For survivability, we need to have a stand-off capability. Period. Dot.”

Other Pentagon officials mirrored Rand’s perspective. Robert Scher, assistant secretary of defense for strategy, plans and capabilities—who was testifying alongside Rand—said that both a penetrating B-21 stealth bomber and LRSO cruise missile are needed to ensure America’s nuclear deterrent. The combination of the bomber and cruise missile would afford the White House options in the event of war without mandating that a manned strike aircraft with an aircrew onboard overflies enemy airspace to drop a nuclear gravity bomb, Scher said.



Moreover, having the B-21 able both to drop nuclear gravity bombs and to launch stand-off nuclear-tipped cruise missiles would greatly complicate the enemy’s planning.

“Also, we can’t expect that always we’ll be able to circumvent any advanced air defense systems from any adversary,” Scher said. “So having the ability to launch from stand-off ranges will be important.”

Dr. Arthur Hopkins, acting assistant secretary of defense for nuclear, chemical and biological defense programs agreed. “In particular, I would like to emphasize the need for survivability and penetration,” Hopkins said. “We don’t know how sophisticated enemy defenses are going to be 10, 20, 30 years from now. Having that capability is very important to us for flexibility.”

The LRSO is not destabilizing as many arms control advocates have argued, Scher said.

The United States already maintains an arsenal of nuclear-tipped air launched cruise missiles as part of the air component of the nuclear triad.

Russia has the most intensely accurate cruise missiles.. compared to the existing older product line used by the US.

From Business Insider - 2017
US can't defend against Russia's newest cruise missiles — so it may have to try offense instead

"But the US hasn't simply been surpassed by superior Russian missile technology. The Russian missiles in question violate the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF), one of the most successful disarmament treaties of all time.

"Essentially, the INF prevented the nuclearization of Europe in the 1980s. The new Russian cruise missiles can strike anywhere in Europe from Russia with a nuclear payload, according to experts who spoke with Business Insider.

"However, defending against cruise missiles is extremely difficult, as they fly fast and close to the surface, meaning radars usually can't find them among the bumps and obstructions in the earth's terrain. Defending against cruise missiles across an entire continent would require airborne detection and tracking — a costly solution.

"Instead, the US may opt to return to its original posture that scared the Russians away from intermediate range nuclear missiles in the first place.

Seems if Russia is so good at "negotiating" their idea of negotiation starts with building the most terrifying nuclear cruise missiles and violating International Arms treaties.. So should Trump just sit still and let Russian forces and now N.K. continue to walk all over Europe, US, and allies?

First, the US should continue to press Russia to comply with the treaty, and as an important second, the US should "start a lot of programs to scare the hell out of the Russians," like conventional cruise missile systems across Europe that could return fire should Moscow ever let one of its banned missiles fly in anger.

"We need to remind Russians why they wanted this treaty in the first place," said Lewis, who explained that the Russians quickly abandoned their intermediate-range nuclear forces when it became clear that the US would respond in kind.

Putin and his press talking heads it seems can certainly gloat, and badger, and cajole the West with such a formidable set of tools to keep the world "covertly" in line with their reality of how the world should run.

The liberals while denigrating the US and it's allies seem to conveniently have a myopic blindness when it comes to giving Russia a free pass having nuclear Cruise missiles.. (hmmm)..

Russia's claim to nuclear destruction fame (able to target all of Europe), is called the Kh-102 when its equipped with a nuclear warhead. ref: Fas.org

President Vladimir Putin has now publicly confirmed (what everyone suspected) that the sea-and air-launched cruise missiles can deliver both conventional and nuclear warheads and, therefore, can hold the same targets at risk.

The United States has publicly accused Russia of violating the INF treaty by developing, producing, and test-launching a ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM) to a distance of 500 kilometers (310 miles) or more. The U.S. government has not publicly identified the missile, which has allowed the Russian government to “play dumb” and pretend it doesn’t know what the U.S. government is talking about.

Putin publicly confirmed that the Kalibr SLCM (as well as the Kh-101 ALCM) is nuclear-capable. “Both the Calibre [sic] missiles and the Kh-101 [sic] rockets can be equipped either with conventional or special nuclear warheads.” (The Kh-101 is the conventional version of the new air-launched cruise missile, which is called Kh-102 when equipped with a nuclear warhead.)

Putin did restart the Nuclear Arms race while apparently it seems telling his PR talking heads to play on the liberal's fear of nukes that the US has and to carefully distract and apparently to make it clear the Russian and Liberal PR does not and shall not EVER point out the current Russian strategy, and nuclear cruise packages. Make Russia seem like the good guys while the US is the tyrannical monster.

The Russian navy is planning to deploy the Kalibr widely on ships and submarines in all its five fleets: the Northern Fleet on the Kola Peninsula; the Baltic Sea Fleet in Kaliningrad and Saint Petersburg; the Black Sea Fleet bases in Sevastopol and Novorossiysk; the Caspian Sea Fleet in Makhachkala; and the Pacific Fleet bases in Vladivostok and Petropavlovsk.

From - ref - http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19727# Defense World News

Russia Launches New Corvette 'Gremyashchiy' Equipped With Kalibr-NK Missiles

Multipurpose corvettes of this type are designed for detecting and destroying enemy submarines and surface ships, providing for amphibious landings and solving various tasks in the near sea zone. The project stipulates a hangar for a Kamov Ka-27 helicopter.

The corvettes displace 2,200 tonnes and have an operational range of 3,500 miles and a cruising capacity of 15 days. They are armed with Kalibr-NK cruise missiles, the Redut air defense missile system and the Paket anti-submarine warfare complex.

The Gremyashchiy class or Project 20385 is an advanced development of the Steregushchiy-class corvette of the Russian Navy.

From the Ukraine news - https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-def...ddle-east.html

Russia has equipped the ships of its Black Sea Fleet with Kalibr-NK missiles that have a range of about 2,500 kilometers.
If the ships of this class are stationed in the annexed Crimea, such missiles may reach European countries, as well as the Middle East, North Africa, Western Asia and the Suez Canal, the press service of the Ukrainian Ministry for Temporary Occupied Territories and Internally Displaced Persons reported.

"The Russian Federation has created in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea a militarized zone that is not accessible to international control and monitoring. Modern military armaments and military equipment continue to flow to the peninsula. According to the latest statements made by some politicians and public figures in several European countries, not everyone fully understands the nature and reality of a threat to the entire continent as a result of annexation and subsequent militarization of Crimea," the report says.

According to the ministry, in December 2015, the Russian Black Sea Fleet was replenished by two small missile ships, the Zeleny Dol and the Serpukhov, equipped with Kalibr-NK missile systems. According to military experts and Russian media reports, these missile systems, using 3M14 (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missiles, allow them to hit targets at distances up to 2,500 kilometers.

"In the conditions of the stationing of the ships of this class in Crimea, in the damage radius are European countries - from Romania to France and Scandinavian countries, as well as countries of the Middle East, North Africa, Western Asia and an important strategic object - the Suez Canal," the report says.

The ministry also noted that Russia consciously relies on ships of this type, since the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty forbids the ground-based deployment of cruise missiles similar to 3M14s in terms of range, while a ship carrying such missiles is relatively inexpensive and enjoys the advantage of fire from the water areas, where it can be protected by coastal forces.

"The Zeleny Dol and Serpukhov warships are currently part of the Russian Baltic Fleet, which makes it possible to use them within a circle with a radius of 2,500 kilometers, with a center in the Kaliningrad region. Almost all European countries, including Iceland, are in the danger zone. It should be noted that on this territory there are 20 nuclear power plants and 139 chemical enterprises of the European Union," the ministry said.

It also recalled that on August 19, 2016, these ships, which at that time were part of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, carried out three missile strikes against Syria.

The ministry said that Russia continues to exert military pressure on Europe to achieve political goals and creates a threat to the existence of peace not only in Ukraine, but also throughout the European region.

Putin's attempts to reign in the "Dear Leader Kim" in N.K. say in essence "Dude, just wait, and you can come help build OUR combined nuclear armed cruise missiles. You don't have any, but you could with us.. Stop the sabre rattling, with ICBM's - they are outdated, now our Kalibr-NK missiles are what you want.. Wanna make a deal ? "

Putin knows how to play dictators and psychopaths really well it seems..