What the witting (and unwitting) fakes will NEVER DO -

[Chester]

from my blog -

http://merlynagain.blogspot.com/2016...akes-will.html

I have come to study several of the recent crop of AMES (Alternative Media Experiencer Stars). In one case I had gotten quite close with one of these stars known as the Ruiner and now “out of the shadows” he goes by his (likely real) name of Shane. So to make my point, I feel it is best to refer specifically to the following experience I had with Shane regarding “polygraph.”

I once suggested to Shane the idea of taking a polygraph... if I recall correctly I was not necessarily suggesting he take one. I think I was speaking of Corey or perhaps any AMES at that time. Shane’s response was something like... "well, polygraphs can be wrong" or "polygraphs can be faked"... suggesting then that what good would one be? He essentially blocked any openness to doing one himself which is now what I am calling him to do. He won't, and you can take that to the bank.

Now let's look at this - If someone is telling the truth, why would they fake that they are lying? They wouldn't. So in the cases of these AMES who report both publicly and what they share “privately”... full blown fantastical and truly all but impossible to believe detailed stories, the only possible results are that the polygraph would be right or wrong but certainly a truth teller is not going to intentionally fake out a polygraph to suggest they are lying. This one is ruled out.

The Ruiner blog and Shane’s public interviews were filled with many details which can be polygraphed. But those examples represent a small percentage of the total number of detailed fantastical experiences and claims that Shane shared with me privately and with others who became what I have come to call Shaneolytes and a great deal more of these fantastical experiences and claims to the the inner circle of Shaneolytes of which I was a part for several months.

Shane told me (or typed to me) dozens of detailed fantastical experiences... and did so to the level of detail that depending on the experience there could be several direct questions which would be able to receive a clear "yes" or "no" answer if polygraphed by a professional and in most cases there could be more than a dozen for each experience. In essence there could be hundreds if not thousands of questions which a simple "yes" or "no" answer would either be correct (the truth)... or not. Perhaps the polygraph technician might incorrectly interpret as truth or lie in some cases (meaning a response that suggests he may be lying when it is the truth or a response that he is being truthful when he is actually not). But the vast majority or readings from polygraphing hundreds of details would clearly demonstrate the overall fact that the story teller is generally truthful or generally lying.

Of course, a test of all drugs which are known to assist someone in fooling a polygraph would be needed as well.

So why is this important? Because many of us who have had anomalous experiences or who are at least open minded that some folks do actually have these experiences often seek better understandings with regards to what they have experienced. Frauds, fakes, attention seekers, mythomaniacs, narcististic megalomaniacs and sociopaths who take the route of "the fake" perform a serious disservice to these folks.

In the case of some of these AMES they either state directly or at least greatly imply that the reasons they come forward are to be helpful to humanity or at least a group within humanity (such as an "intended audience"). Yet if what they are doing is to knowingly lie or to knowingly but significantly embellish even one detail of one element of a fantastical story, then (IMO) this is terribly sad for all of us.

And I have not even brought up what is far worse than the lying... which is the interpretation these folks then suggest. And then I haven't even brought up the damage they do to others who now see them as some wise being whose ideology should be listened to such that the suggestions of their ideologies could actually be helpful to humanity and in fact to all life. If the stage has been obtained via the route of getting the attention of the vulnerable via lies should anyone expose themselves to what may effect their world view emanating from the fake?

In cases where an individual actually believes every single detail they have reported then it still would likely be revealed in the polygraph that there’s something seriously fishy going on because the subconscious knows the truth. To me, like in the case of the individual I will point to at the end of this post, don't they owe it to us all to find out for themselves if what they "think" they are experiencing is actually real? meaning real to the very same level of reality they share which is the very same level of reality I am pointing to at this moment.... that I am typing on a black Logitech keyboard.

Real Experiencers do not need to lie. Authentic individuals do not need to embellish or take a small truth and spin it into a massive tale filled with mostly lies. Those who are coming forward with their real and truth filled stories do not do so to seek attention or play twisted games... they are much more likely stimulated to share their experience because they wish that folks would either stop living in their locked down 5 sense, materialistic world view which most of humanity has become cemented into or where in the cases of openness to the anomalous they have settled for a "belief" in an equally false usually religious paradigmic explanation developed all and only so they can cope with what they can't otherwise explain.

Here is an example of an experiencer (yes, an AMES) who emerged as one of the most prolific and eventually one of the most greatly appreciate experiencers... appreciated by the reasonably grounded while simultaneously open minded - ever to come forward. Fortunately, he has been gifted with the ability to write which has played a hugely significant role in his ability to share about his actual, truly anomalous (and fantastical yet greatly supported by witnesses) experiences yet where he has also reflected upon these experiences in a most grounded way. Where this man asks questions, the fakes tell you the answers and in many cases tell you what these answers should mean to you. This is the deepest clue to what really drives them. (more on this later)

Many already know of him – Whitley Strieber

And guess what Whitley has done?
EEGs
MRIs
and…
Polygraphs (by “respected” and credentialed polygraph specialists)

Find out more here…

http://www.unknowncountry.com/whitle...-telling-truth

with respect,
Sam

[Bill Ryan]

.
Yes. Another simple reality-check is for the experiencer to be happy to undergo a regression session in the hands of a competent and respected therapist (of which there are many).

A number of 100% genuine UFO abductees and contactees have done just that, with the sessions recorded on audio or video in real time. That willingness, transparency and openness says a very great deal for their claims.

[Pam]

I think that if someone comes forward with a story of fantastical experience and wishes to make their story public it is perfectly reasonable that this person submits to testing.

This area is ripe for con artists because they have the potential for notoriety and can possibly make some money telling a story that is not provable. Why not be willing to submit to whatever kind of testing that would provide validation of their claims. It is even more important, if you are asking for donations or making money off of the experience.

Every ideology, movement or organization will eventually be corrupted. The degree and amount of corruption may vary but there will always be someone that comes along and see's an opportunity to get something for themselves by manipulation. Whether that is fame, notoriety, or financial gain will depend on the individual. Likewise, there needs to be responses to temper this kind of activity or the corruption will increase. Sam, I think you are onto something. It's sad that this is the way things are, I would love to trust everyone.

[mojo]

Not to sidetrack discussing Shane but speaking personally, would love the opportunity and living on the low economic scale nobody has offered to do regression hypnosis in the event that has been happening all these years in Oregon. I had ETs visit my home during a 2 week period but dont have lost time, nightmares or ET dreams. Yet I know they were at my home without a doubt and watched a silver disk take off in the morning and heard their footsteps above me. They were super fast moving just like they had been observed moving faster then humanly possible in eyewitness observations a few times. cheers

[*penumbra]

I came forward with my story years ago to competent researchers; with no intent to gain monetarily from it. I simply was relaying information that some might find useful. I would have happily gone through hypnosis or polygraph testing until I discovered that I would have to pay that bill. I simply could not afford to do so. So, I live quietly and discuss it with other experiencers and care not whether I am believed or not.

[Marikins]

As I recall Shane claimed that he was 'allowed' to do the blogs purely as fiction, so wouldn't a lie detector go against that agreement?
Which would be a complication if he were truthful.
Sam, may I ask how knowing the blog was true or false would effect your world outside of friendship? (not rhetorical question, I am really wondering :-)

[Nasu]

Posted by Marikins (here)
As I recall Shane claimed that he was 'allowed' to do the blogs purely as fiction, so wouldn't a lie detector go against that agreement?
Which would be a complication if he were truthful.
Sam, may I ask how knowing the blog was true or false would effect your world outside of friendship? (not rhetorical question, I am really wondering :-)

Surely if you get to a point in your friendship where you feel unable to trust any more and know that the other party will never make any serious effort to prove themselves to be true, there is no friendship left any more. Friendship without fellowship is hollow at best, true friendship never puts limits on trust.... IMHO...x... N

[Chester]

Posted by *penumbra (here)
I came forward with my story years ago to competent researchers; with no intent to gain monetarily from it. I simply was relaying information that some might find useful. I would have happily gone through hypnosis or polygraph testing until I discovered that I would have to pay that bill. I simply could not afford to do so. So, I live quietly and discuss it with other experiencers and care not whether I am believed or not.

In the case of "the Ruiner" not only would all bills be paid but so would compensation be paid for any time lost from missing work.

[Chester]

Posted by Marikins (here)
As I recall Shane claimed that he was 'allowed' to do the blogs purely as fiction, so wouldn't a lie detector go against that agreement?
Which would be a complication if he were truthful.
Sam, may I ask how knowing the blog was true or false would effect your world outside of friendship? (not rhetorical question, I am really wondering :-)

I am primarily not speaking of the blog writings. I am speaking of the several hundred details he shared with one or more individuals. There was an attempt to deflect these details as being fair game on the basis of a strange argument that these things were shared "in private." Yet the same could be said for what happens "privately" in the formation process of cults. Imagine if those "protected communications" were made public from the beginning? Would there be the later formed "cult"? Likely not and this is because those who are not vulnerable would be pointing out the obvious problems to the vulnerable such that those very same vulnerable do not end up playing their all important and required role in creating the cult.

This then brings into question the so called argument that said communications should remain private. In fact, in my opinion, to either wittingly or as one who might be puppeteered (such as what is likely the case with Corey Goode... at least in part)... to become involved with others regarding not only fantastical claims but to then espouse world views (and justifications for these world views) based on the paradigms and the "guru's opinions" when they attention received is generated deceptively (conscious knowing of making the crap up) or where the claims are so fantastical that the experiencer is all but obligated to do everything they can to find out for themselves as well as everyone else who is intrigued by the stories that these stories are or are not based on truth.

An example of this kind of integrity (IMO) is Whitley Strieber as I pointed out in the OP. If I had my way and I owned a forum, I would have two sections... one where all the fantasy stuff goes and one where the far better vetted material goes. I recall when Avalon started drawing the line on "channeled material" as an example of this. (GOOD!)

[Chester]

Posted by mojo (here)
Not to sidetrack discussing Shane but speaking personally, would love the opportunity and living on the low economic scale nobody has offered to do regression hypnosis in the event that has been happening all these years in Oregon. I had ETs visit my home during a 2 week period but dont have lost time, nightmares or ET dreams. Yet I know they were at my home without a doubt and watched a silver disk take off in the morning and heard their footsteps above me. They were super fast moving just like they had been observed moving faster then humanly possible in eyewitness observations a few times. cheers

True experiencers of real anomalous phenomena (like yourself) are a breath of fresh air. I have seen your videos (for one). I have also experienced you here on these forums for what seems like ever since I arrived four years ago and everything you have stated is quite believable. I would make odds high you would pass a polygraph that questioned you about these experiences which you have written about.

What I find most realistic about what you have shared about (besides the consistency, besides that you have not turned into a guru (or that to be one is your goal), besides that these experiences, though indeed extraordinary are in now way fantastical as the ones shared by birdman and the ruiner (as examples) is that you don't draw conclusions as to what everything under the sun is all about.

In the following interview we have an example of a thirty plus year experiencer who still has drawn no definitive conclusions as to what he has experienced and what any of it means. Perhaps the best discussion of this kind I ever listened to.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=A9KnjUFgqoc

[Marikins]

Thanks, Sam. I was wondering if his claims were true, if it would effect your philosophy or actions. I remember how upsetting the whole thing was/is and I asked myself what real difference it would make. But you are really about a higher abstract of integrity with testimonials of high strangeness. Thank you for explaining.

[gord]

Good thread Sam. I like your disclaimer signature so much I'm considering getting it tatooed on my forehead.

[Chester]

Posted by Marikins (here)
Thanks, Sam. I was wondering if his claims were true, if it would effect your philosophy or actions.

My experience with Shane amounted to several months of almost daily, detailed communications. Most of this occurred via Skype chats but there were a few dozen speaking communications and two or so where we used video as well. The Skype chats amounted to over 2,500 pages when copied to a Word document (and this excludes any attachments such as images, etc.)

The entire relationship was built on the foundation of the first two lengthy chats we had which occurred between January 7th and January 10th, 2015. These two conversations took up about 100 pages alone of that Word document. Why those chats were so important to me relates to several life experiences I had prior to ever meeting Shane. The primary experience is the only bona fide anomalous experience I ever had in what I believed to be a full blown waking state which occurred when I was six years old. (here)

Based on what Shane suggested in one of these conversations created the whole basis of my desire to trust him as I may finally have an explanation about what may have been behind that experience which interestingly fit with so much of the recent experiences I had had just before formally meeting Shane.

I hope the next statements are very clear.

What Shane chatted with me about... that which he may have felt was a justified (though silly) game to play... play with me (and others... almost exclusively on a one to one basis) and the impact that this eventually had upon me does not make Shane a "bad guy." Just because someone is a young, silly, imaginative attention-seeker does not make him bad. It was simply my own life experiences and "fate" that led me to the eventual trauma where Shane just happened to play a role which I see as unwitting and in fact where he actually later suggested apology (yet I would not say a full blown apology or relationships that became damaged could have been repaired. Unless he comes clean, those relationships likely are done (at least for this lifetime)). Unnecessary but egos can be that important for some... my ego being one of them.

Perhaps though what still bothers me and what I am not desiring to accept is that he won't come clean. He knows how close we got. He definitely knows that. For ego and/or some strange game to be more important than the friendship and love we once shared is something I guess one day his soul will have to deal with.

But, I do want to share this one last little story and it is completely true. After I had my meltdown and after experiencing an unexpected mini-breakdown, I tried to process what I had experienced where I shared about it with one other person. It was during this brief period that I made a terrible mistake where I shared an experience of one of the other Shaneolytes all and only to give an example to the one I was speaking with as to the process I had concluded was a modus operandi used by Shane in one on one situations whereby the result is a likely deeper emotional entanglement that the target being would have with Shane... and not Shane as regular, everyday human being but as a super being of some sort.

That piece of information I had promised I would never divulge. In fact, when it happened, I didn't even have that promise in mind. I was distraught, I was as I stated above, in a bit of a mini-breakdown. Only after the mistake did I realize it and in fact implored who I had spoken to to forget about it or at least keep it to themselves. As humans do though... especially humans who are pathologically honest... it got out and the relationship was destroyed.

Yet within two months, despite the prediction by "one with clear vision" the relationship started up again and Shane and I had several new exchanges. All went pretty well though it would never be the same. This brief period found its end when "the game" was played once again albeit in different form and I moved on.

A week or so later, my son Stephen shared with me that he had been chatting with The Ruiner on Facebook. Shane knew who Stephen was and guess what Shane did? He asked me if it was OK with me that he chat with Stephen. That is the Shane I knew. The real Shane. The one who knows right and wrong, the one who has true understanding and cares for others and the one who has integrity. My response was, "Of Course... and in fact, why would you even ask me?" (as Stephen is 24 years old... but I knew the answer and I just stated it).

As life goes... soon after, Stephen entered into a psychosis. Lifestyle choices combined with a genetic proclivity played the biggest role in this happening. And so despite that I had ended communication with Shane... suddenly up popped Shane on my Skype with some silly image and words that seemed even sillier. Then a few days later another image - the one of the movie cover for that Andy Kaufman movie starring Jim Carey. I had no clue what new game Shane was playing so I ignored it.

Then... my son's condition worsened and I felt compelled to at least let Shane know so that Shane might not "feed the monster." We had a brief exchange where he made it clear that his recent attempts to have dialogue with me was so that he might then share his concerns for my son Stephen. That again is the Shane I knew. The real Shane. The one who knows right and wrong, the one who has true understanding and cares for others and the one who has integrity.

So the bottom line is that all my comments are based not on the blog but on my personal experiences.

[Daozen]

I had prolonged contact with people who had access to underground cities in Asia, and some who actually came from said zones. I would take a polygraph on that, and even have the audio recorded, provided my voice could be obscured. I would worry about the recording making me nervous but would do it anyway.

I would also help... (time permitting, I am very busy learning programming right now, and moving away from the alt media scene)... help a campaign to get more experiencers to take polygraphs.

I was thinking of something similar, where you get them to sign a sworn affidavit. I have already done that. There's an interesting vid out there where a guy asks Neil Armstrong to take an oath on the Bible that he went to the moon. Offers him 5000USD to do that. Neil would not do it. Liars are scared of oaths because they are aware of the spiritual repercussions of swearing on a religious document.

But then, even if I did pass, I could still get that patronizing -I believe he believes he's telling the truth- or the inferences that the experiencer is a pawn in a program, which is the last resort of the debunker. Why anyone would put someone through a program to work on water filtration and crowdfunding sites is beyond me, and none of my passive-aggressive debunker whisperers have ever given a solid argument to my face. Some of the conclusions I drew from my experience were wrong. The facts are real.

http://www.polygraphis.com/services.htm

Rates in Taipei would be reasonable. As long as it didn't take more than 5 hours from an afternoon I could do it.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Daozen (here)

There's an interesting vid out there where a guy asks Neil Armstrong to take an oath on the Bible that he went to the moon. Offers him 5000USD to do that. Neil would not do it.

Yes, that was film maker Bart Sibrel, in his (controversial!) documentary Astronauts Gone Wild. The clip of his encounter with Armstrong is here.

I myself have a Sci-Fi-esque past life recall that feels so extreme (although it's way more than interesting), I've never shared it publicly. But I have over 10 hours of audio recorded regression sessions to support its apparent reality, in full detail. I might gradually creep up on it, but at the moment I'm not ready to go public, recorded sessions or not.

When someone's REALLY willing (or even eager) to rush to publicity, that's a kind of red flag in itself. (Andy Basiago is another one, though he most sincerely believes everything he's saying.)

Most people with highly extreme stories to share are naturally very hesitant indeed. If they WANT the publicity, then the very good question may have to be asked... what's pushing or driving them.

[Daozen]

When someone's REALLY willing (or even eager) to rush to publicity, that's a kind of red flag in itself. (Andy Basiago is another one, though he most sincerely believes everything he's saying. Most people with highly extreme stories to share are naturally very hesitant indeed. If they WANT the publicity, then the very good question may have to be asked... what's pushing or driving them.

I spent 4 years deciding whether to speak, so there is some vacillation for you. Plus I was not really allowed to reveal anything. I also changed handles on most boards I was on, which shows a lack of interest in personal publicity. I do not really care so much about validation, as I have decided to take a different route from media. I do however, want it on record that I am not afraid of a lie detector test. I would also be interested in the polygraph process in itself.

I also have a feeling that most of the current crop of loud mouths would be terrified of even an affidavit. I can see them making all sorts of excuses.

I myself have a Sci-Fi-esque past life recall that feels so extreme (although it's way more than interesting), I've never shared it publicly.

I have also decided to stop talking about my weirder experiences, as the fora are saturated, and people are becoming jaded. What really matters from whatever experience you had is the useful work you do as the result of that contact. Ye shall know them by their fruits etc. Are you alleviating suffering? Who are you helping? What practical projects have you set up? That is the true measure of an experience.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Daozen (here)

What really matters from whatever experience you had is the useful work you do as the result of that contact. Ye shall know them by their fruits etc. Are you alleviating suffering? Who are you helping? What practical projects have you set up? That is the true measure of an experience.

Yes, Amen to that. Kudos to you there.

Carve that in stone, or print it out, frame it, and hang it on the wall.

[Bayareamom]

"...Are you alleviating suffering? Who are you helping?..."

! Precisely! I'd like to add something else to this discussion, if I may (great thread by the way):

I worked very briefly with a high profile researcher in the abduction/experiencer community. I will not mention names here, but an underlying worry I have with the research community is the level of bias inserted into the level of some of their work. Not all of them, but certainly some of them have inserted an incredible amount of bias into their research 'results.'

I've noted that some researchers (Dr. Karla Turner comes to mind), warned about this time and time again. If memory serves, Dr. Turner warned about this tendency toward bias during many of her lectures; she advocated a full and complete sharing of information within the research community.

I mentioned this at one point with an abduction researcher and inquired as to why this has apparently not yet been done. She laughed a sort of sardonic laugh and stated that this wouldn't be possible, for a variety of reasons. When I queried as to why, she indicated there were any number of obstacles, but indicated that ego had quite a bit to do with this.

Rather unfortunately, I have had one particular researcher claim that I am some sort of Satanic/sexually abused female; that I come from an Illuminati family, etc., so forth. This is taking me a lot of courage to even say this much, because I am such a private person. But let me make one thing very clear: NOTHING, nothing, nothing could be further from the truth. What this woman has stated to me via email (after speaking with her on the phone in two different sessions), is just flat out...WRONG.

I was never, ever sexually abused, nor was my family involved in some sort of Satanic worship and/or sexual abuse of any kind. My parents were very good parents; very loving and nurturing and certainly made the two of us (me/sister) feel loved and cared for. Were they perfect? Nope. But they were salt of the earth parents, with strong morals/fiber. Were they both caught up in something which overwhelmed them at times? You bet. My father was and to some extent still is, connected to one of our abc's. But just because of his affiliation with this one agency, this prominent researcher presumed to know what kind of background I come from, etc., so forth, w/o having the slightest bit of insight into my own personal experiences.

I have had extraordinary events occurring to me and have had, throughout the entirety of my life. I have, indeed, been seeing a qualified psychologist who knows the entirety of my story. I have been seeing her for years, most especially at the start of some of these rather extraordinary events. She has witnessed my abject horror just shortly after some of these events, but she has also witnessed my absolute joy and awe with some of the more beautiful/benevolent events. She has witnessed my raw emotions IN THE FLESH, up close and personal, which, really when you think about it, is probably the very best way you are going to be able to help someone like me when these things are occurring.

So word of warning out there: I don't begin to know what sort of 'help' some of these researchers have been able to give to others out there. I am certain many of them have been able to help quite a few. But one thing I have learned with my own experiences out there is to be discerning when/if you should decide to go to any one of these researchers for help. This is a tricky issue and for those of whom feel they absolutely need help w/some of this. I understand that, but at the same time, it is appalling what I have witnessed in the way of 'help,' when I approached just a couple of these 'experts.'

Here is what my psychologist said to me after I explained to her what this other gal said to me. I don't think she would mind if I share just this much:

"...A truly skilled hypnotist goes into a client's psyche to help them understand themselves at a deeper level and uncover memories imbedded in the unconscious that will be important to the client. Making assumptions about sexual abuse, etc. etc. is just plain wrong; especially in your case. She not only is biased but lacks clinical skill, sensitivity and insight. She failed miserably in understanding you and your experiences from childhood to adulthood.

I sincerely hope you can disengage from her outrageous incompetence. Honor who and what you are and what you have experienced in all aspects! Understanding and insight come from within you; not from someone else!..."

The above is a statement by someone I have been seeing about all of this, for many years now. She has been an absolute godsend to me. She reminded me time and again that the use of common sense, logic and discernment is certainly appropriate when applied to this phenomenon. I wholeheartedly agree...

[Daozen]

So word of warning out there: I don't begin to know what sort of 'help' some of these researchers have been able to give to others out there. I am certain many of them have been able to help quite a few. But one thing I have learned with my own experiences out there is to be discerning when/if you should decide to go to any one of these researchers for help. This is a tricky issue and for those of whom feel they absolutely need help w/some of this. I understand that, but at the same time, it is appalling what I have witnessed in the way of 'help,' when I approached just a couple of these 'experts.'

I would be very wary of going to hypnotists, prominent researchers, psychologists etc, as you say bayareamom. The field could be full of all sorts of agents. People paid to debunk and discredit, others baiting anomalous experiencers for reasons unknown. I would be much happier going to a "run-of -the-mill" polygrapher or notary, as there is less likelihood of them being a paid plant.

[Bayareamom]

I want to clarify that I've posted my last comment because I feel it pertains to those involved with this field, whether experiencer and/or researcher. There are indeed 'some' involved in both camps of whom are not necessarily who and what they purport themselves to be. It is sort of like walking on eggshells when one is perhaps trying to find some answers, should he/she be experiencing anomalous events.

SO - just as it is always wise to use discernment/logic/common sense with those who profess to have had rather extraordinary events, it is also just as wise to be just as discerning when seeking help from those claiming to be 'experts' in the field of abduction research.

Oh - I have on just two occasions, used hypno regression and on both accounts, did not recall anything other than what I'd already recalled on a fully conscious level (which is how I have experienced almost all of my events).