I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

[ThePythonicCow]

Sometimes a person can get "stuck on stupid" ... unable to understand something.

Sometimes a person "stands on stupid" ... deliberately misrepresenting something, often for a nefarious purpose.

Given how well ofelas articulated the flat earth psy-op in his only two posts here in the last couple of years (here and here), I can only hope for his sake that he's standing on stupid ... a liar, not an idiot. For if that be idiocy, then it would be a monumentally disabling case of the affliction.

In any case, we can not serve his present needs well on this forum, and he does not serve us well here. So I have closed his account, with the concurrence of the other moderators discussing this.

[Sunny-side-up]

Posted by Jad (here)
I was surprised how things went downhill fast in this thread.. I hope that we can use it as a learning tool to be less aggressive in trying to express our views. At the end of the day if we are living in a simulation does it really matter if the earth is flat or not? Lol

Yes well said.
I believe there is a lot to be observed here about human nature and the herd.
If my dad was still alive and I showed him this site complete with our collective views, well he would have thought I was in need of some mental health attention o.0.
Views about our so called reality have changed and are moving fast into and beyond what was once the realm of Science Fiction.

misbis, I think you was asking a real question about a map image that you didn't recognise, but you might have been trying to ask hidden questions about the Flat Earth view point, you might have been in need to ask direct questions without being embarrassed or negatively categorised?

We need to try answer peoples queries with gentle words of understanding and not as one sided minds, flat minds.

We need hold hands and walk gently in these times.

[Foxie Loxie]

The "caring" attitude here on Avalon is what impressed me at the beginning.....let's keep it that way!

[petra]

Misbis, I can relate to your frustration. I am very hesitant to profess "I know" about anything too. Then once you do know something, and you try to tell people about it, they get mad at you! More frustration. It's like a never ending circle.

I may not be able to say in all honesty that I know the earth is a sphere, but why would I even have to? Bill explained all kinds of ways people can know, and I get it - but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know. In my mind I'd be making an assumption based off the answer to a question, and that's something I am trying to avoid.

I recall thinking sarcastically "Is it even possible for me to know anything?" - and it was out of frustration that I had that thought. Sure there's things we can know, and things that we can't know.

In my mind, the only things I can truly know are all things I've proven to myself over and over. I know I need sleep, I know I need food et cetera. Maybe it's those words in particular that are tricky.

[Nick Matkin]

Posted by petra (here)
... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

I am perhaps in a minority (although surely not on PA?), but I find it hard to believe anyone intelligent enough to be able to read, write and use a computer does not understand "the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons..."

Maybe this is the reason for the spread of the many bizarre beliefs now given exposure on the web; i.e. the fact that many, many people really do not have any idea about very basic geography, astronomy or how the world works. This is what happens when people like me exist in a bubble of people with similar education, life experience and interests - we get detached from those who are so different in so many ways.

Didn't Bill once describe meeting a woman who had absolutely no idea what the stars were she could see in the night sky? So you see these people are real. It's not their fault, although to those of us with an interest and awareness of our surroundings, probably find such massive gaps in anyone's fundamental knowledge completely baffling. Well I do anyway.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Nick Matkin (here)

Posted by petra (here)
... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

I am perhaps in a minority (although surely not on PA?), but I find it hard to believe anyone intelligent enough to be able to read, write and use a computer does not understand "the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons..."

Maybe this is the reason for the spread of the many bizarre beliefs now given exposure on the web; i.e. the fact that many, many people really do not have any idea about very basic geography, astronomy or how the world works. This is what happens when people like me exist in a bubble of people with similar education, life experience and interests - we get detached from those who are so different in so many ways.

Didn't Bill once describe meeting a woman who had absolutely no idea what the stars were she could see in the night sky? So you see these people are real. It's not their fault, although to those of us with an interest and awareness of our surroundings, probably find such massive gaps in anyone's fundamental knowledge completely baffling. Well I do anyway.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

I heard it said best this way ...

"Some people know just enough to think they are right, but not enough to know they are wrong."

I really do believe a lot of this stems from lack of proper education in schools these days ... It all seems to be a multi-angle approach and lack of proper education is one of those angles. When the rulers can get us to believe complete nonsense to the point that we fight for those false beliefs, then they know they have complete control. We all know the "elite" have been dumbing-down America and other countries for years now. Welcome to the new age of religion ...

[Mike]

If you assume the earth is spherical and that it rotates, all the phenomena you see and experience around you makes sense. Things like sunsets, ships disappearing over the horizon, and so on.

But in a way I can understand what Petra is saying. I once watched a video presentation suggesting that the planets don't rotate around the sun, instead they trail the sun like a kind of cosmic string, moving in a tight circular orbit as they did so. The speaker sounded intelligent. He had explanations for some of my doubts. He spoke simply but occasionally dropped in some science that I couldn't quite grasp. I walked away from that a little unsure of things for a bit.

Another video I listened to featured a Jewish scholar. A doctor of some sort. The guys' name eludes me now. Limor posted it, I remember that. I can track it down if anyone is sincerely interested. Anyway, he spoke intelligently for an hour or so, and then began talking about concepts of a flat earth, earth rotation etc. This man is also a helicopter pilot, and basically what he was saying was, if the earth really was rotating at 1000 mph, he shouldnt be able to land his chopper on what seemed to be a stationary target. And this is a concept that, admittedly, is tough for me to grasp as well.

So I started reading about it...

And I have to say, none of the stuff I read sounded very coherent. I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph. The articles I read required me to comprehend some science that I just couldn't grasp. I do believe that the earth is spherical (that seems quite obvious for many many reason), and i do believe that it rotates, but the rotation part will always be a little bit confusing to my mind.

Note: also, why the heck does autocorrect keep changing 'believe' to 'beleive'?

[Bubu]

with millions probably billions of cellphone cameras around it would be a lot easier to take selfies at the edge of the flat in times when people fell off the cliff or buildings taking selfies. Why would flat earthers want a picture of the whole earth from space when they can prove their theory without living earth. I can prove earths roundness with scientific means but for the sake of those who does not have enough scientific background this would be an indisputable proof.
can anyone ever believe that with billions of adventurous humans no one has ever been on the edge of earth to take selfies. well of course because there is no edge at all. I use to be a sailor we have powerful binoculars that can see ship disappearing and appearing from the horizon. first and last to appear disappear of a ship from a distant is the satellite antenna. earth is round.
what amazes me however is the effectiveness of the miseducation so much so that many people is unable to see the very obvious. Choosing to disregard ones discernment but rather relying on faith from the explanations of authorities. Its the essence of religion and formal education; faith and recognizing authorities. and then of course we have the vaccines and pills to slow down the processors. Its sad but a lot of humans has lost/ forgotten the use of ones discernment. I work as a profesional handyman, there are people that work for me its common that i have to patiently explain the job. It always amaze me how far my profesional helpers are from my 16 year old boy whenever I take him to work. An old friend told me when I was younger "the best education you can give your children is teach them how to use the imagination"

[Hervé]

Posted by Mike (here)
I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]

To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth's 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Note: also, why the heck does autocorrect keep changing 'believe' to 'beleive'?

Dyslexic programmer?

[Nick Matkin]

Posted by Bubu (here)
with millions probably billions of cellphone cameras around it would be a lot easier to take selfies at the edge of the flat in times when people fell off the cliff or buildings taking selfies. Why would flat earthers want a picture of the whole earth from space when they can prove their theory without living earth. I can prove earths roundness with scientific means but for the sake of those who does not have enough scientific background this would be an indisputable proof.
can anyone ever believe that with billions of adventurous humans no one has ever been on the edge of earth to take selfies. well of course because there is no edge at all. I use to be a sailor we have powerful binoculars that can see ship disappearing and appearing from the horizon. first and last to appear disappear of a ship from a distant is the satellite antenna. earth is round.

Indeed, all the flatards have to do is publish one photograph of the edge. Just one, and with their numbers, resources and enthusiasm you'd really think they'd have got their sh!t together by now to do that wouldn't you?

But no. Apparently the entire circumference (and have you seen how many tens of thousands of miles the south-pole-edge circumference is supposed to be?), the ENTIRE circumference is heavily guarded so no one can get near. There must be military ships every few miles to prevent anyone slipping through. That would be thousands of them! Trouble is there are no photos of them, no one knows where the vessels are built, maintained or knows any of the thousands of personnel who must work on them guarding the circumference. Weird...

(In the remote possibility that there are any true Flat Earthers here and you have an edge photo, please let us have a look so people like me will shut the f*** up!)

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]

To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Yes. It's what's called an 'inertial frame of reference'.

What that means is that everything's traveling at the same speed — the earth, the air, the helicopter, everything.

So landing the helicopter on the ground is as easy as dropping a tennis ball from one hand into the other when you're in a plane traveling at 500 mph.

The air's not moving relative to anything else, so it doesn't matter whether the plane is on the runway, or is an interstellar spacecraft traveling at half the speed of light. INSIDE the plane, it's all the same. (Just as it is on or near the surface of the Earth, when flying a helicopter.)

[petra]

Posted by Nick Matkin (here)

Posted by petra (here)
... but without the scientific understanding of the principles behind things like sunsets, horizons, I still cannot in all honesty say that I know.

Unfortunately, in a democracy, where every adult is allowed (or forced) to vote, we overlook these people at our peril...

I don't believe democracy works anymore, but I once did. And I don't vote because I feel I don't know enough to vote. Go figure

I'm just trying to be honest and I think a lot of it has to do with language and how I will or won't use it.

Someone said poetically in another posting about how our brothers before us layout out foundations (I'm paraphrasing), and how it makes things easier for those who come after. Well we've seen the earth from space now! It looks pretty round to me! Even so, I cannot still say I know it's round - I'd actually feel silly saying so. I can say "I know the earth looks round from space".

For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT. I've yet to figure it out either, but it feels almost like humility. It's almost superstitious too, as if I say it out loud, it'll suddenly become false.

Ever get asked a question and you just feel like saying "How the (insert expletive) should I know?". Well that happens in my head sometimes, and it's kind of annoying (but also a little amusing).

[Hervé]

Posted by petra (here)
[..]
For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT....
[...]

Well... if I may... then switch to "degrees of certainty"... how's that now?

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I[...]
... I honestly still can't quite understand how a floating chopper can land on an earth that is supposed to be spinning at 1000 mph....
[...]

To keep it simple and with that same terminology: that's because the chopper indeed does "float" in an atmosphere that's also "entrained" to follow earth 1000mph spin... hope that makes enough sense?

Yes. It's what's called an 'inertial frame of reference'.

What that means is that everything's traveling at the same speed — the earth, the air, the helicopter, everything.

So landing the helicopter on the ground is as easy as dropping a tennis ball from one hand into the other when you're in a plane traveling at 500 mph.

The air's not moving relative to anything else, so it doesn't matter whether the plane is on the runway, or is an interstellar spacecraft traveling at half the speed of light. INSIDE the plane, it's all the same.

A little more on this, though it's off-topic. Some might find it very interesting.

Supposing your interstellar spacecraft, traveling at half the speed of light, had headlights? Or a window at the front, where you could shine a spotlight?

How fast would the light beam be going, once it was outside the spacecraft?

That's not a simple question. In fact, it seems to be a paradox, because the speed of light is a constant, no matter where it's measured from.

Think about that for a moment. It's a real pretzel of a brain-twister.

Solving that riddle is what led Einstein to the Special Theory of Relativity.

[petra]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by petra (here)
[..]
For me it's hard to say what something IS or IS NOT....
[...]

Well... if I may... then switch to "degrees of certainty"... how's that now?

110% I can do How about 200%.... sure no problem. Just can't say "I know"

[East Sun]

Maybe the speed of light depends on where the light is coming from,
universal light or artificial.

Just a thought.....

[Nick Matkin]

Posted by East Sun (here)
Maybe the speed of light depends on where the light is coming from,
universal light or artificial.

Just a thought.....

What? Er... no.

[Mike]

Thanks Herve and thanks Bill for those explanations.

It makes sense. As a concept, I can grasp that. And I'm as sure as I can be - without being exactly 100% - that it's true

I guess what I was trying to say was, there is a little wiggle room in some of these concepts for doubt (well, if not doubt then at least a little uncertainty). That doesn't make them untrue of course, but it gives the irrational folks something to exploit. And it gives rational people something to get maybe a little hung up on. In other words, I can observe the ship coming over the horizon; I can observe the sunset doing same; I can observe spherical celestial objects. And I can observe many other things...

....but the phenomena of the air sort of moving with the earth is something I can't really observe. If one plugs in the idea of inertial frame of reference, then one can intelligently say to oneself "okay, that makes sense. " But it does require a little bit of trust. It creates just a tiny bit of uncertainty. And I think that's what Petra was saying.

[Apulu]

This seems to have turned into an important thread, for lots of reasons!

I want to add to the sentiments above, that time spent considering other viewpoints, and time spent resisting ridiculing other viewpoints, is time well spent.

I can understand the frustration, I think, in wanting to see the flat earth viewpoint disappear, and quickly. It may not though, and if this is indeed being perpetrated as a psy-op, surely this is exactly the kind of division that is wanted, and expected (or at least one of the divisions).

I think the notion of what is truly knowable, deserves it's own thread, if it hasn't had one already (I'm pretty sure there has been!). If I find the time, I might, perhaps, start one.

To my mind, it seems important to me, personally, to declare the following: based on what I observe, and from the evidence that I've seen, I'm going to operate on the basis that the earth is round. It seems quite sensible. And this goes for many things. To not operate on that bases, and others, seems confusing, and a bit pointless.

There is a big BUT coming. I have a fair amount of trepidation in stating this BUT, but I think it's important. The BUT is, that I cannot say, and I think nor can anyone say, for sure, that the earth is round. Oops, I've said it. It appears that way, but then so does everything: it seems to be this, and it seems to be that. And that's it.

This is really helpful, to my mind, and especially in a debate: to admit, and to see, that I can't be certain about anything. And, I think, neither can anyone.

Again, there are certain things that I think it seems unhelpful not to go along with, and I think a nice round planet is one of them. But outside of your own consciousness, Laurence, what do you KNOW to be true? Answer: not one single thing. I love this perspective, and I REALLY think this is useful, in any argument, and in life, IF used constructively. Hopefully, I've been constructive.

[felix roseczky]

flat earth may be interesting to really ask youreself what do i know, whats my knowledge, and whats second hand knowledge. for me it was very important step in leaving the matrix prison humanity is stucked in.
isnt it like that, that reality is what the mayority believes it is.
light waves appear not to act as what they are if there s no spectator. all particles in universe share the same information of the whole universe. even time doesn t really exist, its just a concept.
out of body travelling, dimensional travelling, cleardreaming (luciddreaming) - all experiences that can hardly be explained with our theory of not much.

is the earth flat? idk
sphere? idk

i know there arent real photos from earth. i know nasa is faking is videos...but this can have many reasons...black budget projects that are financed with iss money...what ever.

i feel this reality is like a puzzle...with every piece the picture becomes more clear and visible.
wouldn t be that suprised to wake up in a stasis tank on a spaceship and realizing we arrived at damn alpha centauri and its time to get back to reallife. really. wouldnt be too suprised.

may gods love be with you, may your paths be blessed by health, peace, joy and amazing experiences. dont let yourself become divided. life as one.


to understand the secrets of the universe we need to think in the terms: frequency, energy and vibration.
nikolai tesla

Life is like a melody, the vibration of energy. god is the very harmonic vibration of high frequent energy, performing the soundtrack of eternity.
The Love frequency.

Om mani padme hum

White Wolf de avalon