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Thread: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

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    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by hyundisonata (here)
    Lol loved the reply good to see a sense of humor, the wall you refer to if looked at closely shows the steps to the ramparts on the Scottish side and the defensive ditch on the English side so the Romans were defending something in Scotland? It was also the most intensive manpower of all their conflicts. lots in Scotland to prove my story all you have to do is look, best place to start is with the Egyptian princess Scotia that gives you the ties with mosses then move on to the Isle of Iona, here is an interesting link to a site dedicated to this myth. http://www.sacredconnections.co.uk/ the tie to Pilate came about when researching Roslyn area that took me down one avenue after another where I found the true record of Scotland’s history was removed to the Vatican after the removal of the Pentland family along with the elimination of the village known as Pentland that then became Roslyn village and the Pentland castle became Roslyn castle, this again led to the fact Roslyn chapel had a sister chapel St Katherine of the hope on the Pentland hills that was hidden and practically destroyed in the 18th centaury by flooding the valley where it stood . This valley is known as glen course and is under the control of the MOD, the right name for this valley is glen of the cross of which is the description of Calvary hill and the stump of the cross still exists to this date, starting to get the drift? Scotland had a thriving town life and industry along with farming long before the Romans got out of bed due to those escaping whatever destroyed Atlantis settling here, Atlantis can be found at the southern tip of Greenland that fell into the sea that was built into a huge canyon that ran the length of Greenland so easily found by any would be treasure hunters. Lots more than this brief description but this is the reality behind Jesus that has been hidden over many years especially by the Vatican.
    Thanks for that, I'll have a look. Meanwhile, I've just watched a vid on that site, where the speaker states that Joseph of Arimathea's daughter married and had children by his great-grandson. Joseph must have been fathering offspring for a very long time...


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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by hyundisonata (here)
    Hi guys it’s been a while since my last confession, truth is I have been wandering along this long weary road of learning and have only reached the first of many roundabouts and still none the wiser. I agree with Bill only he is still stuck in the fairy tale, the real story is well and truly buried by the Romans when they stole Christianity as a means to raise a form of tax 300 years after the sacking of Rome so the bible is but a corrupt manipulated version of the true story that introduced fear tactics such as old Satan and his legions to make sure you paid your share. Jesus was just an ordinary man who was introduced to reality via Atlantians and ET that did not originate in northern Africa but here in bonny Scotland. Sounds like fantasy I know as the indoctrination of history forced upon you from childhood makes you believe such is the case, I only came across this by accident when investigating ET and its military connections here in Scotland that uncovered the fact that Pontius Pilate was born and bred just outside Edinburgh when investigating the connection between Roslyn chapel and ET where one clue led to another then another that opened up a whole new outlook on religion and ETs involvement. Such as the Dead Sea scrolls etc is part of the truth spirited away to another country so as not to be found when the Romans deleted Scotland’s history from the face of the earth , the whole story is still there its just a case of uncovering it.
    hyundisonata
    I am fairly new to the site and am trying to get as much out of the posts as I can but keep stumbling on some of your acronyms. When you reference ET are you referring to extra terrestrials or something else and you mentioned something being under control of the MOD, that one I don’t have a clue. Any help? I am looking through the Sacred Connections link you posted. Thanks

    May your God be with you
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  5. Link to Post #343
    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    @ 1 Flew Over

    We are on the same page.

    @ skippy - Bodhisattva

    Yep - likely so.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    WOW Thank you Cristian....I have been trying to understand some things re: Jesus and who has re-incarnated from Him. I resonate with your idea that perhaps Jesus is actually an idea, like Eden...an idea embracing entire ways of thinking...it is outside the literal interpretations. I have more questions...thanks so much for adding another perspective.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by 1 flew over (here)
    When you reference ET are you referring to extra terrestrials or something else and you mentioned something being under control of the MOD, that one I don’t have a clue. Any help?
    Help here from a Brit!

    The 'MOD' is the British Ministry of Defence (the UK equivalent of the US DOD). ETs are always extraterrestrials.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 12th November 2013 at 16:46. Reason: original pdf link no longer working - found another one

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by raregem (here)
    WOW Thank you Cristian....I have been trying to understand some things re: Jesus and who has re-incarnated from Him. I resonate with your idea that perhaps Jesus is actually an idea, like Eden...an idea embracing entire ways of thinking...it is outside the literal interpretations. I have more questions...thanks so much for adding another perspective.
    Rare Gem

    I recently finished a book that had a much broader understanding of the concept known as Jesus. The book is called The Wisdom Jesus and was written by Cynthia Bourgeault, a PHD theologian that is an Episcopal Priest, brought up in a Christian Scientist family and went to a Quaker school. She studied and worked with Father Thomas Keating, studied the Gurdjieff work in Sufism, studied with a noted Rabi ( I forget his name), was married to a Christian Mystic, reads ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, is very well versed in the Gnostic Texts and has one of the most well rounded and multi faceted viewpoints I have ever run across. That and she also has a wicked sense of humor. The book is intertwined with quite a bit of the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of Peter. Because of this, the book comes from a very Gnostic and expanded viewpoint of Yeshua. To me it opened up a much wider idea of what the concept of Jesus Christ was about.

    Her book The meaning of Mary Magdalene was also eye opening for me. You can check out her reviews on Amazon.

    Disclaimer: I get no commissions on her sales!
    Be Well
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    Last edited by 1 flew over; 12th September 2013 at 08:18.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by 1 flew over (here)
    When you reference ET are you referring to extra terrestrials or something else and you mentioned something being under control of the MOD, that one I don’t have a clue. Any help?
    Help here from a Brit!


    Bill
    Thanks. I am afraid that I understand American not English. Two cultures separated by a common language.
    1 Flew Over
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 10th September 2013 at 06:27. Reason: fix quoting

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Call me crazy but I think what we have in the NT is a rather accurate representation of who Jesus was. These accounts were written in a time when witness followers of Jesus were still alive, and the Jews and Hellinists of that period already had a system of verbatim memorization to commit many of the teachings and events to a stable oral tradition (and no, this is nothing like a game of telephone.) I don't know why people side with the Gnostic literature considering it is (1) of a much later time period, sometimes centuries after Christ lived (2) of a much more dubious authority and (3) often contradictory. Please note the Gnostics were not persecuted by the Romans even though the Christians were. The Gnostic religion was much more accommodating to Roman society and so it was tolerated. The reason why the Gnostics "lost" is that there was too much in-fighting between Gnostic sects, they simply could not agree on the story! What we would call the mainstream orthodox group however had a very consistent, unified narration. We see as early as the mid second century figures like Ireneus of Lyon, who himself was a student of Polycarp, who inturn was a student of the Apostle John, arguing that the "gnosis" of the Gnostics has absolutely no foundation, for unlike Ireneus who could demonstrate a chain of transmission to an Apostle and ultimately Christ, the Gnostics only claimed to be possessors of knowledge. Gnosticism is really a much more ancient system than Christianity, which a segment later incorporate Christ into its metanarrative. Other legends and folklore in Europe of Mary Magdelene and the Apostle John arriving in France is just untenable history in my opinion.

    Lastly, I know the Roman Church gets a bad rap, but it's based on a false paradigm. The Roman Church is not the only Church, there are other independent Churches of Apostolic origin, e.g. Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc. The notion that the Roman Church in Europe somehow manipulated all the other Churches is something I've never quite understood, even though it is a popular belief. I can assure everyone that the Greek Orthodox are no fan of the Roman Church, but even they will admit that many points of Rome, particularly in doctrine, are absolutely correct. In fact, these two "enemies" are more alike one another than different. The point being that any claim to some later corruption of Jesus' teaching has to take into account these other Christian communities, the task of corruption would not be an easy thing at all, in fact I dare say it would be impossible.

    Just my two cents!

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Call me crazy but I think what we have in the NT is a rather accurate representation of who Jesus was. These accounts were written in a time when witness followers of Jesus were still alive, and the Jews and Hellinists of that period already had a system of verbatim memorization to commit many of the teachings and events to a stable oral tradition (and no, this is nothing like a game of telephone.)

    What does NT stand for?

    And sorry but humans beings communication skills are severely flawed ...you can bet your bottom dollar years and years and years of oral tradition would hardly result in anything authentic....
    unless some other means of communication were developed that resembled NOTHING of what we do in the realm of communication today...so im curious how would this type of tradition that your referring to not resemble a telephone tag game?
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by CD7 (here)

    What does NT stand for?
    NT = New Testament



    Edit: Ninja'd ya on this one Kraut!
    Last edited by Freed Fox; 10th September 2013 at 20:12.
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by CD7 (here)
    What does NT stand for?
    NT stands for New Testament.
    My field of expertise is not knowing anything.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by Kraut (here)
    Quote Posted by CD7 (here)
    What does NT stand for?
    NT stands for New Testament.

    I thought so....humm all I needed to know
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by CD7 (here)
    And sorry but humans beings communication skills are severely flawed ...you can bet your bottom dollar years and years and years of oral tradition would hardly result in anything authentic....
    unless some other means of communication were developed that resembled NOTHING of what we do in the realm of communication today...so im curious how would this type of tradition that your referring to not resemble a telephone tag game?
    In any society or community that is based on oral tradition you look for two things to provide stability, namely (1) process and (2) control. We know from first century Rabbinic literature that the Jews had very developed systems of memorization. The halakha were orally transmitted teachings of Rabbis where great attention was paid to verbal accuracy to ensure the teaching was passed down correctly, and that it faithfully reproduced what was in the past. This is the exact opposite of hearing something one time, and then passing on what you think you heard like in a game of telephone. Furthermore, there was a teaching authority that acted as a control to ensure this faithful transmission and correct for any deviances. The earliest Christians were Jews, and it's not difficult to imagine that those who were capable of writing would have noted Jesus' sayings, as for the rest they would have practiced what was already common in their culture, treating the teachings of Jesus as halakha. In fact the "passing on" that Paul references to in 1 Corinthians 12:15 is Helenistic technical term for this same exact process. We know that the transmission of information was strictly controlled in the early Christian community by the data presented in the NT literature. All of the Pauline epistles are testaments to constant vigilance over newly established communities, to address questions and correct any deviations from the norm. When a serious debate rocked the early Church, namely whether Gentile converts needed to observe Jewish Law, Paul did a peculiar thing. Even though this was a debate among Jewish-Christian missionaries out in the Hellenistic world, the debated question was brought before the Twelve Apostles in Jerusalem (Read in this, *Authority*). So we know that the Twelve Apostles didn't just disappear, they remained active in the early community, even involving themselves in questions occurring in foreign parts of the Empire. This again goes back to the second point which requires a control of the transmission of the teaching. The Apostolic authority was later transmitted to the Bishops who succeeded them, and we see very early on with the first so called "heresies" that the orthodox group kept sounding the same refrain, "listen to your Bishop" whether he be in Rome, in Antioch, in Jerusalem, or Alexandria. A strong emphasis was placed on the episcopacy because these were the knowledgeable leaders, the successors of the Apostles, who now were the bearers and official transmitters of Knowledge, bearing responsibility that it is accurately handed down. From Ignatius of Antioch, to Ireneus of Lyons, and every other astute Christian who encountered Gnosticism the questions was the same, where is your apostolic succession? The Gnostics, claiming a secret knowledge from Christ, had to face questions from Ireneus who was twice removed by a direct chain back to Jesus, what were the basis of such "secrets." As mentioned earlier, the Gnostics were not unified, many sects disowning the other, claiming their gnosis superior, etc. The Gnostic teaching was also very foreign to Judaism, what was this talk of Archons, Demiurgs, and the like? Was Jesus not a Jewish teacher? It's much easier to fit Christ into a Judeo-Christian system than a Gnostic one, but this is a whole new topic.

    Anyway, enough for now, just my two cents

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote In any society or community that is based on oral tradition you look for two things to provide stability, namely (1) process and (2) control. We know from first century Rabbinic literature that the Jews had very developed systems of memorization. The halakha were orally transmitted teachings of Rabbis where great attention was paid to verbal accuracy to ensure the teaching was passed down correctly, and that it faithfully reproduced what was in the past. This is the exact opposite of hearing something one time, and then passing on what you think you heard like in a game of telephone.

    Well thanks, I have heard of certain jews practicing an oral tradition, but i was not tht familiar with it or what it was called...


    So connecting these two thoughts of a jewish oral tradition and the nt (im assuming you mean the new testament in many bibles?)


    If so, are you saying tht the nt is authentic because the individuals involved adhered to a strict oral tradition? You believe its all original and nothings been changed or tampered with in the nt?
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by 1 flew over (here)

    Rare Gem

    I recently finished a book that had a much broader understanding of the concept known as Jesus. The book is called The Wisdom Jesus and was written by Cynthia Bourgeault, a PHD theologian that is an Episcopal Priest, brought up in a Christian Scientist family and went to a Quaker school. She studied and worked with Father Thomas Keating, studied the Gurdjieff work in Sufism, studied with a noted Rabi ( I forget his name), was married to a Christian Mystic, reads ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, is very well versed in the Gnostic Texts and has one of the most well rounded and multi faceted viewpoints I have ever run across. That and she also has a wicked sense of humor. The book is intertwined with quite a bit of the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of Peter. Because of this, the book comes from a very Gnostic and expanded viewpoint of Yeshua. To me it opened up a much wider idea of what the concept of Jesus Christ was about.

    Her book The meaning of Mary Magdalene was also eye opening for me. You can check out her reviews on Amazon.

    Disclaimer: I get no commissions on her sales!
    Be Well
    1 Flew Over
    1 flew... Wow! What a book. Well at least the first chapter I just finished. She starts off with this info...

    "the angle of approach I will be using throughout this book is to see Jesus first and foremost
    as a wisdom teacher, a person who (for the moment setting aside the whole issue of his divine
    parentage) clearly emerges out of and works within an ancient tradition called “wisdom,”
    sometimes known as sophia perennis, which is in fact at the headwaters of all the great religious
    traditions of the world today."

    Here is a paragraph that really rings out at me from later on in Chapter 1...

    Quote I once asked a group of people in a church I served, “Would it
    make any difference for you if the resurrection hadn’t happened, if Jesus hadn’t risen from the
    dead?” I admit it was a trick question, and I got exactly the response I expected: theological
    diatribes based on the Nicene Creed. Of course it would make a difference: because the
    resurrection proves that Jesus is the only Son of God, that there is none other like him, that in
    and through him God has reconciled heaven and earth and laid the foundations of the New
    Creation, that this is the pivotal moment in salvation history—on and on like that. But the
    point being missed—and it’s really a key point—is that for these first disciples, the ones who
    first listened and said “yes” to Jesus, the outcome was as yet unknown . Both crucifixion and
    resurrection lay ahead. How would they know that this teacher whose being was pouring into
    them, sometimes in spite of themselves, in the midst of the crosscurrents in their hearts, would
    all too soon be crucified, die, and rise again? It all lay up ahead. What caused them to say “yes”
    to Jesus?
    It must have been very different from what now, twenty centuries later, is our normal
    understanding of the situation. We may say “yes” to Jesus because we know now that he is the
    Son of God, that he died and rose again, and that in union with him we hope to do likewise.
    They didn’t know this. What said “yes”?
    Thanks again for bringing this book to my attention.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by CD7 (here)
    Well thanks, I have heard of certain jews practicing an oral tradition, but i was not tht familiar with it or what it was called...


    So connecting these two thoughts of a jewish oral tradition and the nt (im assuming you mean the new testament in many bibles?)


    If so, are you saying tht the nt is authentic because the individuals involved adhered to a strict oral tradition? You believe its all original and nothings been changed or tampered with in the nt?
    I honestly can't say it's all authentic because we simply don't know. What I can say is that the NT (and yes I'm referring to the New Testament) contains a relatively accurate depiction of Jesus. I can't speak for all the details but in my opinion, at least in substance it's well preserved. I think there *were* some alterations made to *certain* strands of the *written* tradition though. In other words, certain copies of the Gospels were altered, in most cases these were accidental slips of the pen, but in a few cases these were intentional (these cases are for the most part well known, and they are not as drastic as many would think.) The good news is that because of the mass proliferation of copies, it would have been impossible to globally alter the text. So for example in the famous Johanine comma, where an explicit declaration of the Trinity was inserted into the Bible, the insertion only affected a particular *strand* of Bible copies, and not the Bibles all over the world. Most of these textual variants have been identified by comparing different Bible copies from different regions or strands/lineages. Usually the older variant is the more authentic one, and textual scholars have developed a science of determining which was more likely to have been part of the original text. So yes, there has been some alteration to the NT since its original writing, but through scholarship we have a very reliable idea of what the original would have read, and from what I hear, and I can't confirm this, is that through textual scholarship we are 99% confident of what the NT contains as being part of the original. Whether that original accurately contains what Jesus said is another story, but as I said I believe it's reasonable to be confident about it.

    P.S. regarding the textual variants mentioned above, it's important to mention that no Christian "dogma" hinges on any of these variants. In other words, the existence of these variants doesn't affect the Christian body of faith.

    Just my two cents
    Last edited by Apteka; 11th September 2013 at 01:43.

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by Apteka (here)
    Call me crazy but I think what we have in the NT is a rather accurate representation of who Jesus was. These accounts were written in a time when witness followers of Jesus were still alive, and the Jews and Hellinists of that period already had a system of verbatim memorization to commit many of the teachings and events to a stable oral tradition (and no, this is nothing like a game of telephone.) I don't know why people side with the Gnostic literature considering it is (1) of a much later time period, sometimes centuries after Christ lived (2) of a much more dubious authority and (3) often contradictory. Please note the Gnostics were not persecuted by the Romans even though the Christians were. The Gnostic religion was much more accommodating to Roman society and so it was tolerated. The reason why the Gnostics "lost" is that there was too much in-fighting between Gnostic sects, they simply could not agree on the story! What we would call the mainstream orthodox group however had a very consistent, unified narration. We see as early as the mid second century figures like Ireneus of Lyon, who himself was a student of Polycarp, who inturn was a student of the Apostle John, arguing that the "gnosis" of the Gnostics has absolutely no foundation, for unlike Ireneus who could demonstrate a chain of transmission to an Apostle and ultimately Christ, the Gnostics only claimed to be possessors of knowledge. Gnosticism is really a much more ancient system than Christianity, which a segment later incorporate Christ into its metanarrative. Other legends and folklore in Europe of Mary Magdelene and the Apostle John arriving in France is just untenable history in my opinion.

    Lastly, I know the Roman Church gets a bad rap, but it's based on a false paradigm. The Roman Church is not the only Church, there are other independent Churches of Apostolic origin, e.g. Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc. The notion that the Roman Church in Europe somehow manipulated all the other Churches is something I've never quite understood, even though it is a popular belief. I can assure everyone that the Greek Orthodox are no fan of the Roman Church, but even they will admit that many points of Rome, particularly in doctrine, are absolutely correct. In fact, these two "enemies" are more alike one another than different. The point being that any claim to some later corruption of Jesus' teaching has to take into account these other Christian communities, the task of corruption would not be an easy thing at all, in fact I dare say it would be impossible.

    Just my two cents!
    Apteka

    Just another opinion of what you are saying; The Canon (Bible) was not compiled until the fourth century with some very specific directions in mind. Those Gospels considered inappropriate or having a different direction by the powers that be were not only left out but were ordered destroyed. It is only because there were people interested in protecting religious writings that hid them that what has survived did survive. If Constantine and the Council of Nicea had their way, nothing other than the Bible as we know it today would ever be known. We would not have the Gospel of Thomas or Mary Magdalene or Judas or Philip to add to our understanding of the man named Yeshua. They would all be long forgotten ash and additions to the story would have been gone. Even the four main Gospels in the Canon tell quite different stories of what transpired. Most priests, ministers and teachers cherry pick the parts to tell the story as they want it to be told. Please realize that the found Gospels were named the Gnostic texts to degrade their validity. They were all Christian Apostles putting down what they saw and experienced. They were not attempting to hide anything like the ones who ordered their works burned.

    When multiple religious groups use a single source for their scripture, they will of course have very similar beliefs. Even if that source was incorrect to begin with.

    Bless those who had the foresight to protect the other Gospels from the religious Zealots. Damn those who attempted to destroy history for their own gain.

    Have you even read this entire thread for its content? Great stuff for those who are open to possibly having their viewpoint expanded and their understanding of Yeshua greatly improved.

    May Your God be with You
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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Thanks again for bringing this book to my attention.
    AlaBil

    Glad you like it. I found her to be a very knowledgeable writer with a different viewpoint than what is currently professed. As I mentioned before, she wrote that the language and meaning of the language has changed or been changed so much as to heavily alter the meanings of what was written. She pointed out that the word mercy as in "Lord have mercy on me" did not mean, "oh please all powerful old guy with a long white beard sitting on a cloud please please please don’t strike me down for being such a lowly worthless human being". Since mercy comes from the same root as commerce or merchant and it meant exchange when it was written. Lord have mercy on me it meant more like “may I have an exchange, communication or transference of knowledge with you”… Very Very different. I guess that happens when you read the works in their original language and not the King James Version one and a half thousand years after the original concepts were written.

    May your God be with You

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    Default Re: The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

    Quote Posted by 1 flew over (here)
    Just another opinion of what you are saying; The Canon (Bible) was not compiled until the fourth century with some very specific directions in mind. Those Gospels considered inappropriate or having a different direction by the powers that be were not only left out but were ordered destroyed. It is only because there were people interested in protecting religious writings that hid them that what has survived did survive. If Constantine and the Council of Nicea had their way, nothing other than the Bible as we know it today would ever be known. We would not have the Gospel of Thomas or Mary Magdalene or Judas or Philip to add to our understanding of the man named Yeshua. They would all be long forgotten ash and additions to the story would have been gone. Even the four main Gospels in the Canon tell quite different stories of what transpired. Most priests, ministers and teachers cherry pick the parts to tell the story as they want it to be told. Please realize that the found Gospels were named the Gnostic texts to degrade their validity. They were all Christian Apostles putting down what they saw and experienced. They were not attempting to hide anything like the ones who ordered their works burned.
    1 flew over, I personally don't feel those gnostic texts add anything to our understanding of the historical Jesus. And just as an aside, the Canon was set by earlier, smaller African councils (Niceae only confirmed the ruling of those councils.) Either way, my point is that if we are weighing historical value, the NT literature blows the gnostic writings out of the water.

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