The Gnostic View of God and Enlightenment - Invitation to discuss/debate

[Truthster013]

Hey everyone, I've really been dying to have a good philosophical discussion about the nature of our reality and what it means to be "enlightened" with someone who is well educated in matters of Christianity and/or metaphysical topics of light or energy. I'm not looking for an argument but would enjoy some spirited discussion that might help us both grow a little in understanding. If you would enjoy a lengthy debate or discussion, please read on.

To simplify my understanding of this topic, in the beginning there was energy. One of the laws of energy as we know it is that energy can never be created nor destroyed, it can merely change form. In that way "energy" is a lot like what many might call "God". However, in in my understanding "energy" actually existed BEFORE what most of us have come to know as "God". Just like electricity, energy itself simply exists but it has no morality. It is neither "good" nor "bad". It simply is.

Now, this energy (or Universal Energy as I call it) radiates in waves, vibrations, and frequencies and it is from those vibrations that consciousness (awareness) and all physical matter as we know it was formed and is being held together. Should things stop vibrating at each specific frequency everything as we know it would simply lose form and return to it's natural state (free energy). In that way EVERYTHING in our world is part of that same energy and therefore part of what you might call "God".

Now to get philosophical, I believe that universal energy formed what we call consciousness (or awareness). Long, long ago, energy began dividing itself into distinct personalities or "entities", each made up of exactly the same universal energy but developing it's own consciousness or awareness. This is hard to explain but in terms of human psychology, energy developed a sort of Dissociative Personality Disorder. In psychology this is the condition in which a single human being develops multiple or split personalities. We outsiders know that the person is actually ONE being or host but each distinct personality within that person or host can be totally unaware of the others and believe that it is the only one that exists or that is is distinct from the others. So energy split in to multiple "entities" each believing that they were distinct and unique but in reality they are all made of the exact same universal energy and are all part of the same collective consciousness or mind. This consciousness then began splitting itself into more and more personalities and interacting with itself as a way of understanding itself and creating "experiences" for itself.

Now we start to come to the concept of "God" as most know it. A lot of this comes from an old form of Christianity known as Gnosticism. Before our physical universe was created there were many "elohim" as the Bible might call it (or mighty ones). YHWH, as the Hebrews call him, was but one of of MANY elohim (a plural word referring to many entities). He was an entity which believed himself to be the only one, unaware of other entities outside of itself. This entity then decided that he wanted to create a physical universe and essentially entrap universal energy in the form of conciosness in a physical realm so it could experience being "worshiped" as the "one true God (or elohim).

Now this "god" (the one most believe is the god of our world) did actually create our physical universe thus most are correct. And this god then created a "paradise" to put entrapped spiritual (conscious) energy in. This "God" or entity created vessels and, as the Bible put it, breathed the breath of life into a vessel and we became a living being. This "Nephesh" or "soul" as the Bible call is it is our actual spiritual self. We were placed within a physical shell or vessel as a pen for our consciousness and then led to believe that all we were was this physical body. We were given a sort of selective amnesia and made to forget what we really are (spiritual energy trapped in a physical shell). This is the lot in life for most "un-enlightened" individuals (believing that you are Bob, your physical body, and that's all you are and that when you die Bob ceases to exist).

In the writings BEFORE the Bible the "good and bad" guy if you will were totally reversed. In the Sumerian accounts, one of the other entities who was appalled by what this entity we call god did to us, came and told one of the new physical creatures that she had been tricked. He told her that she was actually like God (i.e. made of the same exact energy) and that she had been deceived into believing otherwise. Symbolically he invited her to eat from the tree of knowledge of good in evil which he told her would open her eyes and she would be like her "god" knowing good and evil. The Bible records that what the serpent told her was actually true for "god" is recorded as saying "behold man has become like one of us knowing good and evil". In other words exactly what the serpent said would happen, happened. Eve realized after eating the fruit that something was different from what she was told. The Bible records that man became "ashamed" of their nakedness. Why? Was it because being naked was a sin? How can that be since God made them naked in the first place. I believe the answer is in the ancient Sumerian and even in the Bible itself. Man realized in that moment that they were naked like all the other beasts of the field. Their eyes were opened to the fact that to "god" they were no different than any other animal, to walk around naked rutting in the field like animals. This new consciousness made them ashamed of being treated like animals.

While there is MUCHHHHHH more, the idea is that man became "enlightened" a bit when they became conscious that they are made of the same stuff as "god". Today "spiritual enlightenment' is referred to as the discovery within ourselves that we are not this physical body. I am not Me. You are not You. You are MUCH more. You are a spiritual energy trapped in this vessel you call You. Those who become enlightened often describe coming to a total awareness that they are ONE with everything. They come to feel and understand that I am me, but I am also you, and I am also the ocean and the tree for ALL of us are made of the same exact universal energy. In fact, when I'm writing to you now I'm not actually writing to another entity but writing to myself for you ARE me. We are the same universal being trying to understand ourselves by interacting with fractured versions of ourselves in different forms.

Lastly, because I probably lost you already, some people may come to "escape" this physical world and trap when they truly come to remember and understand what they are. Others will simply die and then be put back into a new vessel to start again with a new form of amnesia. You might call this a form of reincarnation as they are repeating the same loop and trap over and over until they come to finally realize that their small life and personality are NOT what they really are. They ARE the universe. They are everything. They can escape the trap of consciousness.

[DNA]

I personally see societies, (and you can insert which ever you like) as competing manifestations of Gnostic god like entities.
I believe that Yaldaboath (the old testement god and the demiurge as described by the Essenes) was the god recognized by the Essenes because he was the god of the Jewish society and as such the entity observed by the Essenes in their pursuits for spiritual liberation. I believe gods with little g's insert themselves into earth societies, and as such accrue spiritual essence as a form of taxation.
This is why the Essenes formed a counter culture, one that they hoped would be lived without a little g god.
They were of course attacked and destroyed by a society with a demiurge component because of the threat they posed.

I've opened a thread based on these principles if interested.
Parasitic gods

[Retief]

My current thoughts on this subject (and by no means am I claiming it to be the "truth") are that maybe nothing exists except consciousness. That consciousness is primordial. Where did consciousness come from? Beats me and after many years of struggling with this question I have come to accept that my current mentality is insufficient to understand an answer. Anyway, that would mean anything and everything we perceive as an external world is simply information and I would suggest under this model that "information" is a manifestation of consciousness itself. Everything is ultimately consciousness.

So, eventually, self-aware parts of consciousness came into being. This is the only thing I or anyone else can know for a fact; I am self-aware. However that came to be the fact remains.

That's kind of the bigger picture, smaller being maybe this is a consensus "reality" that we all chose to partake of. Back when I was in college my roommate and I were extremely monetarily challenged lol. So, our Friday night entertainment consisted of hopefully a six pack of beer and two player Monopoly. I remember making the analogy of Monopoly to reality at the time. There was nothing physically stopping me from taking a hotel and putting it on Boardwalk, except that would be against the rules and have ended the game because my roommate, of course, would not continue playing. I feel something similar is going on here. Yes, you can probably "move mountains" but that would defeat the purpose of you being here.

That begs the question of the purpose to being here. If any one knows please tell me lol. It might be enlightenment (whatever that may be), entertainment, ourselves (god) becoming aware of ourselves, I don't know.

Anyway, I love this topic and my aforementioned friend and I continue to discuss and argue about it to the present.

[Truthster013]

Posted by DNA (here)
I personally see societies, (and you can insert which ever you like) as competing manifestations of Gnostic god like entities.....I believe gods with little g's insert themselves into earth societies, and as such accrue spiritual essence as a form of taxation[/B]

If I understand you correctly this is a little like the concept that "gods" gain power based on the more people who believe in them?

[DNA]

Posted by Truthster013 (here)

Posted by DNA (here)
I personally see societies, (and you can insert which ever you like) as competing manifestations of Gnostic god like entities.....I believe gods with little g's insert themselves into earth societies, and as such accrue spiritual essence as a form of taxation[/B]

If I understand you correctly this is a little like the concept that "gods" gain power based on the more people who believe in them?

I'm of the opinion that belief in a god is not necessary. Only belief in the society one is a member of.

[Craig]

All great reading above, the one this that has me stuck for awhile now is the idea or concept that there is no time only a unified now and it whilst we are here in a 3D body is there a flow of time. That just has my mind in knots preventing me from onward learnings.

[gigha]

And as such there is nothing and everything

[onawah]

I had the same problem, but it helped me to think of it in this way:
I am an adult now, but I still remember my childhood very clearly,back as far as to when I was still an infant (not everyone can, but the basic premise still applies).
If I think only of my current life, then I am in 3D time, but if I expand my consciousness to the point where I remember myself back as far as I can, then my concept of time changes and becomes much more inclusive, and holographic if I include my memories of the world in those past times.
If I include past life recall into that, then my consciousness of time is expanded even further.
If I imagine applying that same process starting with myself and then on a more universal, holographic scale, then I can get some idea of what is meant by the idea of the "unified now".
I can only do that if I start with myself, but since we live in a holographic universe, that works.

Posted by Craig (here)
All great reading above, the one this that has me stuck for awhile now is the idea or concept that there is no time only a unified now and it whilst we are here in a 3D body is there a flow of time. That just has my mind in knots preventing me from onward learnings.

[Red Skywalker]

To simplify my understanding of this topic, in the beginning there was energy. One of the laws of energy as we know it is that energy can never be created nor destroyed, it can merely change form. In that way "energy" is a lot like what many might call "God". However, in in my understanding "energy" actually existed BEFORE what most of us have come to know as "God". Just like electricity, energy itself simply exists but it has no morality. It is neither "good" nor "bad". It simply is.

This is a first quick reply. Later I will expand more on this.
The first problem is 'the source energy'. What is energy? At least it is connected to time because energy is what make a change from a current situation or status to another. Cause and effect. To get a better understanding I made a thought experiment by eliminating the idea of Time. When does Time stops? When there is no energy, or is in equilibrium ... What is the situation then? It's absolute cold and dark, but somehow from that situation has 'the source energy' to emerge.

We should look at absolute coldness first instead of looking at fire.

I will continue further on (if you like) this idea and create an explanation for a simple timeless time/space conscious light field from infinite absolute coldness.
It goes very deep; Finally, the Universe comes out as an illusion.

At the moment I have to go work, so stay tuned. Maybe I'll have to move or create this to another topic, like quantum field theory or alt physics.

[Eagle Eye]

I think that humanity need to ask the right questions and then the answer will come, even if it takes long long time to unfold.
Who created all this and who created us ? If we have created this and we have that so called superpower, how is possible than we are experiencing a so downgrade creation at this time, if we are truly so powerful we would be in a higher and greater realm and controlling things. So the best answer is we are here to learn, to understand, to evolve , to make choices and to take responsability of our actions, that means to enjoy the reward or suffer from those choices.
So if we are so unevolved, than who put us here ? Now we must return to some ancient scriptures, that most of us dissmiss it too fast (but thats another story).
So what ancient scriptures talk? There were messengers on different times that tried to warn us and guide us, that we must be aware that exist only one God that created us and we are here on a testing ground, to use our free will to acknowledge, that which already exists. To worship one God with great faith, while invisible.
So what are these ancient writings? If we follow the timeline of those messengers it leads to 3 main scriptures: Torah, ancient Bible and Quran. That mean these writing are from the same source but there are some contradiction between them (Perhaps it was understood in a wrong way or manipulated and we needed another perception of reality) . So if we have to start studing them we go for that which all 3 books have the same teaching and then we go further to reasoning. The most higher thing that contradits Bible and Quran is that in Quran it speaks about Jesus as a messenger (not son of God) and must not be worship but to follow his teaching. Because Jesus never said worship me, or that he is son of God ( but that is another disscussion).
So those writing speaks about one Creator, that created everything. That we have free will to choose our path and whatever we choose it will have its reward or consequence and also to be aware of our greatest enemy (Satan), but who is also a creation of God.
So what are religions? In my opinion they started as a representation of these ancient scriptures but have deformed so much on their path and have been transformed in a representation of power and control.

So what is the ultimate purpose ? (my opinion) To be aware of universal laws and to act according to them and to be aware of the creation and the one Creator that means to expand our consciousness in a humble way.

[greybeard]

Truthster013
I agree with your opening post.
Formless became consciousness--condensed into matter and became what appears to be diverse and solid.
Indian mystics have said We are One without a second-- Form formless both and neither--basically beyond human understanding.

Im inclined to trust what comes from mystics (Self realized) of our era rather than relying totally on past culture, that is not denying that they knew the Truth--perhaps just a different way of expressing this universal Truth.

Chris

[Curious77]

I'll just say here that it's amazing how the very concept of "alien visitation" goes unacknowledged
yet the concept of a "god" in the sky is spoken of as reality everywhere.

Weird.

[yelik]

I tend to agree that our physical existence could well be a manifestation of both our individual and collective consciousness including countless other life forms in the Universe.

We can only speculate because of our limited knowledge and understanding of science. Varying levels of knowledge will lead to different ideas which is good. The idea of God is, in my view, a convenient way to fill the gaps in knowledge and understanding.

From a scientific point of view everything appears to be form of energy that operates at many levels, from the Universal and Galactic level to the subatomic level. Energy also appears to intelligently interact with itself as in the case of the human brain, feelings and thoughts which are largely based on life experiences and memory passed through our DNA. Although many believe our soul enters the body after birth. Just what goes on at the subatomic level to create human life we do not know, just like, how exactly does electricity work? Can see why ET is interested in the earth experiment and human reproduction!!

If we look at an MRI scan of the brain it looks similar to the Universe itself, as above as below as they say.

I sort of take the view that the answer will lie in a better understanding of science and the human soul which I believe does not die when our physical body dies.

I also believe that a more advanced scientific understanding of this energy does exist but has been hidden by the Elites, secret societies and various religions because knowledge is still seen as power. How much knowledge have advanced aliens passed onto the Elite few?

The human mind is predisposed to believe in the idea that God created all things and people gain much comfort from it. I have no problem with having a god like mind because life, creation and compassion is eminently better than destruction and cold evil. The Universe is in balance and does not favour one or the other. Through DNA imperfections and life experiences some humans are righteous whereas others are psychopathic and evil and often walk all over righteous people as they make their way into positions of power.

I would definitely say the Universe is in a constant battle against spiritual wickedness in high places. The question is what is it that infects the human mind / soul with greed, ego and lust for power. Is it corrupted DNA, overactive survival instincts or something else more sinister not of this world.

True science and spirituality must act as one for us to gain the understanding we all seek.


Some bits are off topic but related I think.

[Mark]

Posted by Craig (here)
All great reading above, the one this that has me stuck for awhile now is the idea or concept that there is no time only a unified now and it whilst we are here in a 3D body is there a flow of time. That just has my mind in knots preventing me from onward learnings.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs

[greybeard]

Trouble is that the mind will keep you busy, diverting you.
The longer you search the narrower the path gets till there is only One without a second--no subject no object just what is.
As pointed to by sages "I am the totality all of it"
Cant be found in books or in the sky.
Ive experienced Kundalini --spontaneous happening--so well aware of the movement of energy but in a waythats a distraction too.
sidhis occurred but the advice is to not get hooked up on them--dont get off at the energy station--the train has some distance to go

In fairness I get it intellectually (One without a second) but as yet its not my reality.
Ive read and heard countless Self Realized say the same thing.

I tend to point people to this thread by Tim--the horses mouth, so to speak
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904

Im not detracting from the first post--its all levels and what is true and appropriate on one level is not so on another.

Its all the play of consciouses--the cosmic dance or Idra's dream.

Chris

[Bo Atkinson]

Posted by Truthster013 (here)
Hey everyone, I've really been dying to have a good philosophical discussion about the nature of our reality and what it means to be "enlightened" with someone who is well educated in matters of Christianity and/or metaphysical topics of light or energy. I'm not looking for an argument but would enjoy some spirited discussion that might help us both grow a little in understanding. If you would enjoy a lengthy debate or discussion, please read on.

To simplify my understanding of this topic, in the beginning there was energy. One of the laws of energy as we know it is that energy can never be created nor destroyed, it can merely change form. In that way "energy" is a lot like what many might call "God". However, in in my understanding "energy" actually existed BEFORE what most of us have come to know as "God". Just like electricity, energy itself simply exists but it has no morality. It is neither "good" nor "bad". It simply is.

Christian-principles and “first-philosophical-principles”, of reality, sound very close to The Urantia Book, (which felt very much like that specific focus). I studied that decades ago. Before the internet existed, i wanted to know about the strong movements in our world but this exercise proved limiting.

More recently, i’m drawn to some Sanskrit inspirations. (I’m using this term to avoid other cultural associations.) Legends which even inspire modern conceptualizations, without limiting dependencies, but which also find some faded traces in pre history.

What came first in cosmology: energy or time or whatnot? Why trust time as existing first, to provide a first opportunity? (This feels a bit suspect.) Such questions have me searching pre antiquity, to wonder if there exist pre-energies or pre-time existences.

Admittedly, all i really have is personal experience which doesn’t shut off, while the rest of the world is off and on intermittently. Time dependency does seem unavoidable, except in dream visions, which offer other kinds of reality.

[Truthster013]

I'm sorry to all those posting on here wondering why I'm not responding when I said I wanted to have a discussion. No sooner had I posted this thread did I come down with the flu and I've been wiped out. I see a lot of really good thoughts on this I'd like to comment on but I feel like crud so can't stay up long enough to compose my thoughts. Sorry if it seems rude to post then not respond to anyone.

[Red Skywalker]

Truthster013, Be soon healthy and well again.
We'll hear from you, take your time.

[Truthster013]

Posted by Retief (here)
My current thoughts on this subject...are that maybe nothing exists except consciousness. ...that would mean anything and everything we perceive as an external world is simply information

I've contemplated this as well. If I understand you correctly another way of saying this would be that our physical world is not really physical at all. we are not actually "someplace" on a physical planet experiencing a physical existence but rather this is all one giant theater of the mind (the collective consciousness) as if its the most realistic dream ever but in reality nothing in it is really happening. While I accept that may in fact be possible, it is a little depressing to think that all of this is for nothing and that anything we do here is pointless because it's just some universal dream.

[Truthster013]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Truthster013
I agree with your opening post.
Formless became consciousness--condensed into matter and became what appears to be diverse and solid.
Indian mystics have said We are One without a second-- Form formless both and neither--basically beyond human understanding.

You may not have meant any of what I'm about to share but your comment made another thought pop into my mind. The ancients believed that the stars and planets of the solar system also were conscious living beings. For me this goes along with your statement that consciousness condensed into matter. This consciousness may have split into distinct "entities" or physical representations. A planet may be as sentient as an insect. A crazy thought but that's basically what a lot of the ancient and shamanic cultures would say too.