Marshall Vian Summers' message vs. Alex Collier's

[S-L]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
What a thread of changed hearts

I could swear I read you with a different viewpoint not long ago. Maybe I don't pay much attention, my bad.


I would like to point out some simple facts:

1) - If at least 1% of the UFO reports are considered true by you, we are dealing with a very large number of extraterrestrials (and a very large variety of them too);

2) - Many of them display ridiculously advanced level of technology;

3) - If even 1% of the ET cases are true, we're dealing with highly intelligent species;

4) - If they needed metal resources - they don't need Earth, they can get them easily elsewhere, where they are more abundant; We still have intact metal/non-metal resources in check;

5) - If they needed water - they don't need Earth, they can get it more easily elsewhere, again, more its more abundant; We still have water supplies on our planet, in check;

6) - If they need biological material - assuming Earth is a rare and exotic commodity (which it is not), have you noticed any reduction in biodiversity from unexplainable non-human factors? Nope, on the contrary, we keep discovering new species, just adding more to the list of all things nature has provided this planet in the prism of biodiversity;

... Although you can make a case for harvesting of human bio-materials, but that would be an exception, and its not fact (yet);

7) - If they are indeed here, a case can be built that they - if they are harvesting, are doing that in on the other planets, the asteroid belt, Saturn's rings and moons, the Kuiper Belt etc., as some photos/recordings suggest;

8) - If they wanted the planet for any of these reasons - they don't need this much time to do so, they would have done it by now, they are after all, capable of that; If your case is only taking over our society as a species, then again, if that's the whole point, well, they already have us by the balls (pard my language), assuming Summers' view is correct, and there are no benevolents/malevolents and they are all here with the same agenda. There would be no need to play duality, we are not that advanced technologically that we would be a challenge for them to be taken over, nor are we so evolved mentally and spiritually, to be a challenge for domination on those fields as well;



I'm sorry folks, taken all of the above into consideration (minus my own personal experiences), I just don't buy it.


Maybe painting them progressive/benevolent or regressive/malevolent is very black & white view, and maybe we should look at this in shades of grey. But there still is the brighter grey option, and I believe its obvious who has our best interests in mind from all the things you have read on these subjects so far. Maybe those deemed "good" have their own agenda. I don't see how their agenda is harmful for us, considering everything.


Also, while in a way we are special to them (to all different groups), our Solar system is hardly the most interesting place in the universe, or the one with most problems, global scale drama, historical intrigues and epic space opera stories that had unfolded. Nope. Special, but not that special.


While on the subject of Alex Collier too, even though I support him, I believe it may be a case of misinterpretation, or wrongly described concept/chain of thoughts that might explain most of his inconsistencies and errors. But somebody should definitely make a list and call him on it, ask for explanation.

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
In this particular case the alien group that is telepathically contacting Summers supposedly has never been to Earth and has only come as close as the outer reaches of the solar system.

Well, with the above stated, who else could it be other than the KBA that Summers is contacting. Of course they would label all the aliens here on Earth at present as malevolent.

I wanted to read the thread before watching the videos, and then comment, but this was enough for me. I checked some of the video out and yeah, even the rhetoric and tone is what I expected it to be.

I believe his intentions are benign, but the KBA have their own agenda (not necessarily negative, neither positive, in regards to us).

A lot of the points you bring up are impossible to prove or disprove. Speculation based on a range of assumption is not a bad thing, but I would invite caution when doing so on this topic. No one will argue that these forces are more technologically advanced than we are. Perhaps we can use this as a starting point. If we can all agree on this, then I hope we can all agree on the fact that extreme caution is warranted. History is replete with examples of technologically inferior civilizations faced with technologically superior forces. Most of them no longer exist to tell their tales, but if they could, I imagine they would agree that great care should be taken by humanity in dealing with the alien intervention. We should not trust them!

If anything, Marshall Vian Summers and the Allies of Humanity advocate this cautionary approach. If their explanations and arguments fail to convince you - and I completely understand this standpoint - then at the very least we should heed their call for caution. They have abducted thousands of people. Humanity needs to rise up and demand they clear our skies and respect our sovereignty. This is our only home - our one planet. We can't make any mistakes here! I fully support the Declaration of Human Sovereignty.

[OnyxKnight]

Posted by S-L (here)

A lot of the points you bring up are impossible to prove or disprove. Speculation based on a range of assumption is not a bad thing, but I would invite caution when doing so on this topic. No one will argue that these forces are more technologically advanced than we are. Perhaps we can use this as a starting point. If we can all agree on this, then I hope we can all agree on the fact that extreme caution is warranted. History is replete with examples of technologically inferior civilizations faced with technologically superior forces. Most of them no longer exist to tell their tales, but if they could, I imagine they would agree that great care should be taken by humanity in dealing with the alien intervention. We should not trust them!

If anything, Marshall Vian Summers and the Allies of Humanity advocate this cautionary approach. If their explanations and arguments fail to convince you - and I completely understand this standpoint - then at the very least we should heed their call for caution. They have abducted thousands of people. Humanity needs to rise up and demand they clear our skies and respect our sovereignty. This is our only home - our one planet. We can't make any mistakes here! I fully support the Declaration of Human Sovereignty.

Sorry, but how are they impossible to prove or disprove?

Things were mentioned like mining for materials, water, or biological reasons for why we need to be cautious in dealing with any extraterrestrial beings. I reacted by saying -no shortage of water, no shortage of any materials, and no proof of general bioharvest on record. These are facts and can be checked.

It would be ridiculous for me to propagate a view that most or all ETs are benign, because my personal experiences tell me so. On the contrary, I'm insistent that there are many groups out there that we should be careful dealing with, whether they would be perceived as "malevolent", or "neutral". But there were people here on the thread that had negative personal experiences with ETs and paint everything with the same brush. Marshall's message is fine if its calling for caution, but that's not all. There is a huge undertone inside that injects paranoia, mistrust and xenophobia. And we have many examples to choose from in our history (since you mentioned it as well), where there were speeches that started the same, but ended with general disdain and fear to anything remotely different from the group the speaker is addressing to. Need I say in most of these cases wars followed soon? Do we need something like that added to our karmic quota?

There is already a general fear and dislike for anything extraterrestrial in the public, if you start to question people. This is the last thing we need. Prominent figures doing what he does.



I have never said we shouldn't be cautious, only that we should know where to draw the line where caution ends and paranoia starts to build. I don't think Marshall's message clarifies things enough, so I felt compelled to make posts in this thread about it. Sorry.

[wobbegong]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
...
Sorry, but how are they impossible to prove or disprove?

Things were mentioned like mining for materials, water, or biological reasons for why we need to be cautious in dealing with any extraterrestrial beings. I reacted by saying -no shortage of water, no shortage of any materials, and no proof of general bioharvest on record. These are facts and can be checked.
...

Well...IMO a lot are and a lot aren't.
You say that there is no shortage of any material, which is in contrast with most if not all of the data that circulates, like this, for example, found here http://www.peakprosperity.com/discus.../peak-minerals :
They say that a 'shortage of Rare Earth Metals Threatens Renewable Energy' because we will run out of the following resources in less than 40 years:
< 5 years Gallium (used for semiconductors, solar cells, MRI contrast agents)
Germanium (semiconductors, solar cells)

< 10 years Hafnium (computer chips, nuclear control rods)
Indium (solar cells and LCD’s)

< 15 years Platinum (jewellery, industrial catalysts, fuel cells, catalytic converters)

< 20 years Antimony (some pharmaceuticals and catalysts)
Arsenic (semiconductors, solar cells)
Silver (jewellery, industrial catalysts)

< 30 years Tantalum (cell phones, camera lenses)
Zinc (galvanizing)

< 40 years Tin (cans, solder)
Uranium (nuclear power)
They mention that extractable gold and lead are also getting scarce.

There is a huge undertone inside that injects paranoia, mistrust and xenophobia. And we have many examples to choose from in our history (since you mentioned it as well), where there were speeches that started the same, but ended with general disdain and fear to anything remotely different from the group the speaker is addressing to. Need I say in most of these cases wars followed soon? Do we need something like that added to our karmic quota?

Very touchy ground you are treading here.
Ok for mistrust, but paranoia and xenophobia linked to our history of war...sure it's an effective example, but why use it against a book that simply preaches human unity and protection of our borders? It is our right to protect the borders of this planet and set our own rules of engagement.
You also mention our 'karmic quota': that is a subject that also appears in many of the ET messages we receive. I have nothing against the concept of Karma and I respect the Hindu Religion, but Karma has been used in the ET messages as an obvious tool for manipulation. Just like the Christian Religion always mentions our sins.

[Abductee S]

If one looks at the actual data and reports in scientific circles, from not only the US but from others around the world, it seems they are in agreement. The earth is in danger, our resources are diminishing and the finite carrying capacity of the earth has been surpassed.

Technology itself will not correct this and has its own problems. It will take a change of heart and responsibility on a scale never before seen in our history. Much of what is needed is common sense, and some is not. Marshall Summers, in the many books he has put forth outlines and informs as to what we are dealing with, who are the players, where we are headed, and what must be done.

No one likes to face difficulty, work, letting go of assumptions and habits, but this must begin and spread quickly. To call reality "fear based" or "negative thinking" is foolish and blind. We need to wake up, be objective and face reality. We have the strength and ability within us to do this and many great things, which are so needed now and into the future.

[HaulinBananas]

Posted by Abductee S (here)
I'm curious if anyone knows what these men have to say about the Dec 21, 2012 topic?

Thanks wobbegong for that information about Marshall Summers. If anyone out there is really familiar with Alex Collier, could you please answer this question also?
==================================================================================================== ==

(My first PA contribution post) I am trying to include the part of the quote this link applies to - hope I haven't mangled the quote by snipping it . . .

With regard to the Alex Collier question, and if he had anything to say about 2012, it's been at about a week+ since I heard the interview, and I've heard many others since then. But, he may have addressed Dec 21, 2012 in his recent interview with Jay Perron, of Ever Beyond, or Journeys With Jay P.

In any event, it was good to hear from Alex Collier, although the interview was a bit gloomy in outlook.

http://www.alexcollier.org/alex-coll...february-2013/

[Bo Atkinson]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)

There is already a general fear and dislike for anything extraterrestrial in the public, if you start to question people. This is the last thing we need. Prominent figures doing what he does.



I have never said we shouldn't be cautious, only that we should know where to draw the line where caution ends and paranoia starts to build. I don't think Marshall's message clarifies things enough, so I felt compelled to make posts in this thread about it. Sorry.

Onyx,

Perhaps the lighthearted should stay away from any discouraging words, but why would light hearts visit Avalon or Marshall's books?

I can agree with you on one big point: That Marshall's book might be interpreted as "the complete explanation of the entire multiverse and all conceivable ETs, EDs, etc"... I say one might (unfortunately) interpret his writings in this manner. I did not interpret his books in this way. No, no, no.

Instead, i felt that Marshall's books described localized boundaries of universe, as a nominal whole. Marshall used the term "knowledge", to address higher realities, beyond the 'localizing' realities..... Marshall put this higher-infinite reality in an antiquated context, perhaps to reach a certain sector of people who are stuck in this bias.

The scarcity-abundance issue goes far beyond localized realities. I admit i am a conservationist. Remove all the polarity issues and familiar life vanishes. The veil might drop prematurely. However, the game is not over until it is over.

Here is a Camelot interview which caught my attention today: http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html The issues involved are extensive and provide still another version of "saving earth from invaders". It is not for the light hearted. It is about, humanity self-resourcefulness, liberating the spirit, getting clear, saving humanity, tracking destiny. Alex Collier BTW is briefly mentioned near to the end.
(The interview was linked in today's Dimension of Scientology Thread)

[OnyxKnight]

Posted by wobbegong (here)
Very touchy ground you are treading here.
Ok for mistrust, but paranoia and xenophobia linked to our history of war...sure it's an effective example, but why use it against a book that simply preaches human unity and protection of our borders? It is our right to protect the borders of this planet and set our own rules of engagement.
You also mention our 'karmic quota': that is a subject that also appears in many of the ET messages we receive. I have nothing against the concept of Karma and I respect the Hindu Religion, but Karma has been used in the ET messages as an obvious tool for manipulation. Just like the Christian Religion always mentions our sins.

I don't see where we have proof that this is done by extraterrestrials? For all we know, it could be humans using these resources for the underground megacities. Plus, we all know how sources can be tampered with. Shortage of food and drinking water can easily be made "factual".

I will have to do a transcript of his interviews to show you what I mean. Maybe this is not his intention, but from what I, and several other friends have heard/read, they got the same impression. That in his rhetoric, there is an injection of mistrust, and irrational fear. We usually experience the latter from things we don't know, and I don't see how other humans who haven't had any ET contact, could feel any different than hold irrational fear of ETs. Hollywood doesn't help much in that regard either, most movies depict terrifying scenarios involving ETs. And the reason I'm loud on this subject is I cant leave out a decade and a half of interaction with off-world beings, in favor for somebody's philosophical standpoint regarding ETs and how we should behave or deal with them once we come in contact (or stay out of any contact!)

This also serves the paranoia that may ensue in case something like a false flag alien invasion happens. Some might have a flashback in those moments of what Summers has said on the subject and take it as fact at that point, and become hysterical. You people have no idea what is going on down there. Their children are being raised to combat off-world civilizations. In fully fledged war. The only reason we are not dealt with is because we, on the surface, have no knowledge of this, and those underground are being brainwashed to behave this way. We are the ones doing the dirty work on other alien cultures, not the other way around.

But nevermind, It appears I'm talking to a wall here, and I've already said too much. I'll keep it too myself next time.

[Sebastion]

That would be a shame Onyx as I look forward to reading whatever you have to say involving your experiences with ET!

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)

Posted by wobbegong (here)
Very touchy ground you are treading here.
Ok for mistrust, but paranoia and xenophobia linked to our history of war...sure it's an effective example, but why use it against a book that simply preaches human unity and protection of our borders? It is our right to protect the borders of this planet and set our own rules of engagement.
You also mention our 'karmic quota': that is a subject that also appears in many of the ET messages we receive. I have nothing against the concept of Karma and I respect the Hindu Religion, but Karma has been used in the ET messages as an obvious tool for manipulation. Just like the Christian Religion always mentions our sins.

I don't see where we have proof that this is done by extraterrestrials? For all we know, it could be humans using these resources for the underground megacities. Plus, we all know how sources can be tampered with. Shortage of food and drinking water can easily be made "factual".

I will have to do a transcript of his interviews to show you what I mean. Maybe this is not his intention, but from what I, and several other friends have heard/read, they got the same impression. That in his rhetoric, there is an injection of mistrust, and irrational fear. We usually experience the latter from things we don't know, and I don't see how other humans who haven't had any ET contact, could feel any different than hold irrational fear of ETs. Hollywood doesn't help much in that regard either, most movies depict terrifying scenarios involving ETs. And the reason I'm loud on this subject is I cant leave out a decade and a half of interaction with off-world beings, in favor for somebody's philosophical standpoint regarding ETs and how we should behave or deal with them once we come in contact (or stay out of any contact!)

This also serves the paranoia that may ensue in case something like a false flag alien invasion happens. Some might have a flashback in those moments of what Summers has said on the subject and take it as fact at that point, and become hysterical. You people have no idea what is going on down there. Their children are being raised to combat off-world civilizations. In fully fledged war. The only reason we are not dealt with is because we, on the surface, have no knowledge of this, and those underground are being brainwashed to behave this way. We are the ones doing the dirty work on other alien cultures, not the other way around.

But nevermind, It appears I'm talking to a wall here, and I've already said too much. I'll keep it too myself next time.

[Peace of Mind]

beware of the deceivers....

Although I agree with some of the things they say about spirituality, I've haven't received anything of use from either of them. I think some of these WB's use spirituality to promote their claims of aliens. I don’t see any validity in Summer’s or Collier’s claims. Perhaps those that have some beliefs in these two peoples reports can point out a few examples of truth for those of us that can’t seem to find any of it, or any form of connections to it, that would mean a great deal to a lot of us.

I’m finding it very interesting that people can have such in-depth discussions about things that have no foundation or a leg to stand on. How does someone talk with great confidence about something they can’t verify in any way shape or form? I have even greater concerns for those that follow and support this hype without the need of evidence, the hear say seems to be good enough. This is not a good look.

If these so called aliens are real, what do we really expect them to do for us? Shouldn’t we be more concern about the state and condition of the Human race? In my mind I don’t think any intelligent entity from another world will care much about a specie that exhibits very little care/urgency for themselves, or their own planet. I don’t think they have much respect for us because we allow ourselves to be ruled unjustly by a handful of deceitful cowards. If I was an alien I’m sure of what I would be thinking about this place called Earth. I would want to take it over for one reason or another, or feel a bit of disgust while observing the wasteful divine spirit of man.

The cosmos is probably not what Nasa or our controlled learning institutions teach us to believe. I’ve poke a few holes into some of the theories regarding the cosmos, there are some glaring discrepancies and inconsistencies within the teachings of outer space. I’m very much into the sciences. But, my main reasons for not believing in aliens are simple.

EX: I’m a very outgoing person, I’ve extended my hand and heart in many ways and sometimes I even extend my own neck without the fear of it being severed. I along with others are fighting for the homeless/ handicap and mentally ill while uplifting them. Charities are being created for various nonprofits. Protesting/demonstration/seminars/summits/ many random engagements are formed and attended for the purpose of equality and human advancement. Everyone from the children to the elderly is forming long overdue connections and the ideas are fantastic because the generation gaps are being filled within these meetings.

Still, every night I sit in my backyard meditating and asking the universe to provide me with more proof of self, more paths of opportunities and evidence of aliens. I always receive proof of self and opportunities, but nothing on aliens. So, if aliens are real then they must not be benevolent because there’s a whole lot of support and satisfaction to be gain if they ever peeped in my direction. So, imo, the way to experience them is nothing like what some say “Just ask and they will reveal themselves to you”. I’ve done that plenty of time and nothing happens... not even a slight sign. So, why would an alien reveal themselves to you and not others?

Lately, I’ve been suspecting deceit when dealing with the alien subject because of the very energy attach to it. I look at what the information is doing for me and others and what it is not doing for me and others. It’s rather easy to see what’s happening simply by living in the moment questioning and observing everything. If only we would all exercise a bit more TRUE discernment the species will be better equip to deal with anything because their acumen will be enhanced, we will know what to do instead of guessing what to do. I rather know, not guess.

Before I started visiting sites like this I truly believed aliens existed, but after going over the material here and in other places I felt compel to further research the material until there was nothing left of it to be found. Almost every single time I was lead to either a hoax or more unconfirmed data. I don’t see how aliens could be such a hugh concern when there’s no evidence showing that it is. It may be important to a devious plot, thou. That idea seems to be more logical if you really think about it. Perhaps some of us are so broken down that we are making blind attempts at manifesting some heroes to save us, or maybe our minds are the keys to opening up portals for these beings to enter our reality.
I probably can hold some beliefs in E.D's before E.T's...but I will not dwell on that idea because there's no reason to...

Hmmm… being mindful is very important, to produce a reality based on the ideas of others is the world’s oldest trick. So ask yourself this “What’s on my mind”?

Peace

[mojo]

Wonder if some of us are ready to hear about deeper contact? There are silent witnesses to amazing visitations that have never spoken for fear of ridicule. In the Carlos Diaz case I'm reminded of the person in the red volkswagon that told Carlos when he was ready he could help. That man was waiting on an unknown forest road for Carlos after he got abducted. Nothing else is known of him and I wonder what he could have told us? Hoping for someone to say that...

[wobbegong]

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
...I have even greater concerns for those that follow and support this hype without the need of evidence, the hear say seems to be good enough. ...

I have an even greater concern for those that can't see the evidence that is everywhere...you wouldn't even need to look outside the knowledge base here at Avalon, like the Horus-Ra thread, just for an example. Then each of us may have a different interpretation of the evidence, fair enough, that happens with every experience in this life. Unfortunately our interpretations are subjected to the fallibility of the mind but please, don't dismiss this discussion with such statements.

[Flash]

Onyx, please keep posting, even if it is to deaf ears. Some do read and listen, they just may not speak up yet.

Personnally, I have seen the same paranoi feeling beneath Summer's messages, a light tinge, but definitely there. I am also seeing some that are already making a religion out of Summer's words, which he did not intend I am pretty sure of.

We have to take care of our own sickos and psychopaths before we can even try to enter in contact with off worlders species. We have to do the job ourselves. Then we may, I say may, merit to be in touch with good souls out there. Until then, we are just a bunch of violent monkeys.

So yes, be prudent, because with the huge mental block and inhumane behaviors we now demonstrate as a specie, we may be stupid enough to demand to be with the species that will make us slaves and destroy us. But not because Summer or anyone says it, and that we follow it religiously, we have to use our brains and hearts too.

that being said,

they are training some human to have open wars with aliens, Onyx, in the earth belly some humans are being trained by paranoi psychopaths? God we are arrogant, to think we can win this and that war is better than diplomacy.

Where did you learn about this? Do you know more about the PTB plans regarding this?



I am not on neither sides, place or anything, all I personnally know is that we have to take care of the members of our race that are plain crazy or psychopaths and solve our problems ourselves before entering in contact with any outsiders from space. Littles human monkey have to become human.

[Flash]

Peace of mind: So, if aliens are real then they must not be benevolent because there’s a whole lot of support and satisfaction to be gain if they ever peeped in my direction. So, imo, the way to experience them is nothing like what some say “Just ask and they will reveal themselves to you”. I’ve done that plenty of time and nothing happens... not even a slight sign. So, why would an alien reveal themselves to you and not others?

This is a typical grammatical mistake you are making, with a generalisation and a false complex equivalence. You equate benevolence with showing up. This is a logical mistake.

There might be thousands of reasons for not showing up, this does not mean at all it is malevolence. If i don't show up when you ask me, does it make me malevolent. Did it ever happen you did not show up after somebody requested you? Did it make you a bad being? No of course.

YOu have a minimum of 20 people, right here, on this forum, who told you they have seen Aliens face to face, not one, not two, not three, minimum 20. Why don't you believe them? Because it did not happen to you? I believe them and it did not happen to me. yet, I think some, if not most, are worthy human who had strange experiences from our daily point of view.

[wobbegong]

Posted by Flash (here)
Onyx, please keep posting, even if it is to deaf ears. ...

There are no 'deaf ears' here. There is discussion, agreement and disagreement.
If the attitude of a member is '...if you don't agree with me that means I'm talking to a wall...' then it is indeed better that they withdraw because it would be arrogant or in the best case childish behaviour.
Nevertheless, I suppose that what was actually meant was just that it's clear that we aren't going to agree therefore it's not worth continuing the discussion.

[Flash]

Posted by wobbegong (here)

Posted by Flash (here)
Onyx, please keep posting, even if it is to deaf ears. ...

There are no 'deaf ears' here. There is discussion, agreement and disagreement.
If the attitude of a member is '...if you don't agree with me that means I'm talking to a wall...' then it is indeed better that they withdraw because it would be arrogant or in the best case childish behaviour.
Nevertheless, I suppose that what was actually meant was just that it's clear that we aren't going to agree therefore it's not worth continuing the discussion.

if you want him to leave, I don't. And I do see deaf ears here. HOw would you personnally feel if you told me you have been raped and I would answer that you do not know what you are talking about. Wouldn't you feel that you talked to deaf ears?

Onyx and others have said many times, and again, that they have met, talked with, be with, extraterrestrial from other species. Forget Summers, encounter HAS taken place, like it or not.

Why wouldn't we listen those who have been in contact tell use what they saw, heard, felt and lived? And then ask questions instead of trying to convince them of something that became basically religious?

I want to know what people who met aliens experienced. This is THE BEST WAY to know what may be in stock for the future of humanity, listening to the experiencers. THan we may decide.

The worst part is that I do personnaly think that we should not have open arms to any ETs, not yet, we are still too stupid to be able to understand their intentions.

Yet, I am not fanatic, I still want to listen to the experiencers, because they may have much to teach.

[wobbegong]

Flash, I am not worried about Onyx staying or leaving, it's his business.
About your example of the rape: it is applicable to anything, in favour or against your thesis. What would Karla Turner say, if she were alive, about aliens? And the same goes for so many other people that have been abducted.

Many would say that, on the basis of their experience, ET contacts are usually deceiving or even damaging.

I ask questions when I have questions to ask, and you will do the same but, again, that does not make either of us deaf or receptive and I would not accuse you of being deaf if, for example, you don't ask me any questions, I cannot be aware of what you know and of the questions that you should be asking and I would be unfair for calling you deaf, you wouldn't like it so I suggest you don't do it to others.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by wobbegong (here)
Flash, I am not worried about Onyx staying or leaving, it's his business.

That, sir, does not appear to be true.

I believe it was yourself, in your immediately preceding post, who wrote (quoting Onyx) "If the attitude of a member is '...if you don't agree with me that means I'm talking to a wall...' then it is indeed better that they withdraw because it would be arrogant or in the best case childish behaviour."

[Flash]

Posted by wobbegong (here)
Flash, I am not worried about Onyx staying or leaving, it's his business.
About your example of the rape: it is applicable to anything, in favour or against your thesis. What would Karla Turner say, if she were alive, about aliens? And the same goes for so many other people that have been abducted.

Many would say that, on the basis of their experience, ET contacts are usually deceiving or even damaging.

I ask questions when I have questions to ask, and you will do the same but, again, that does not make either of us deaf or receptive and I would not accuse you of being deaf if, for example, you don't ask me any questions, I cannot be aware of what you know and of the questions that you should be asking and I would be unfair for calling you deaf, you wouldn't like it so I suggest you don't do it to others.

yes, Turner would say what you wrote and this is why we should listen to both sides of the stories of these encounters, not be closed minded or one sided. by your attitude and refusal to see the other side as well, you are denying those who had ok experience their own experience, you are telling them they do not know what they are talking about, instead of saying it is another experience and listening, unless you yourself have your own to bring in. My example stands very well for those who make a deaf ear.

I read your <suggestion and I am not telling in bad faith. Onyx has been constantly challenged from people who do not know, having had zero experience, and this is not fair.

[wobbegong]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by wobbegong (here)
Flash, I am not worried about Onyx staying or leaving, it's his business.

That, sir, does not appear to be true.

I believe it was yourself, in your immediately preceding post, who wrote (quoting Onyx) "If the attitude of a member is '...if you don't agree with me that means I'm talking to a wall...' then it is indeed better that they withdraw because it would be arrogant or in the best case childish behaviour."

You missed this part: 'Nevertheless, I suppose that what was actually meant was just that it's clear that we aren't going to agree therefore it's not worth continuing the discussion.'. I meant it.

[wobbegong]

Posted by Flash (here)
yes, Turner would say what you wrote and this is why we should listen to both sides of the stories of these encounters, not be closed minded or one sided. by your attitude and refusal to see the other side as well, you are denying those who had ok experience their own experience, you are telling them they do not know what they are talking about, instead of saying it is another experience and listening, unless you yourself have your own to bring in. My example stands very well for those who make a deaf ear.

I read your <suggestion and I am not telling in bad faith. Onyx has been constantly challenged from people who do not know, having had zero experience, and this is not fair.

I really don't see why you should be so defensive and accuse me of all this. I have my opinion, perhaps you missed my post where I answered his points (I actually had not listed his points next to my reply so I'll do that now and wrap his points in quotes), these are my opinions, I am not telling anyone that they don't know what they are talking about.
I actually did have some questions (at the bottom) that were not answered.
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...would like to point out some simple facts:
1) - If at least 1% of the UFO reports are considered true by you, we are dealing with a very large number of extraterrestrials (and a very large variety of them too);
2) - Many of them display ridiculously advanced level of technology;
3) - If even 1% of the ET cases are true, we're dealing with highly intelligent species;

…true that accepting that at least 1% of the UFO reports are real (which at this point is quite generally accepted), means that we have a large number of ETs with advanced technology and high intelligence visiting us.

That is exactly the issue: What are they doing here?

4) - If they needed metal resources - they don't need Earth, they can get them easily elsewhere, where they are more abundant; We still have intact metal/non-metal resources in check;
5) - If they needed water - they don't need Earth, they can get it more easily elsewhere, again, more its more abundant; We still have water supplies on our planet, in check;
6) - If they need biological material - assuming Earth is a rare and exotic commodity (which it is not), have you noticed any reduction in biodiversity from unexplainable non-human factors? Nope, on the contrary, we keep discovering new species, just adding more to the list of all things nature has provided this planet in the prism of biodiversity;
... Although you can make a case for harvesting of human bio-materials, but that would be an exception, and its not fact (yet);

We surely haven’t assessed their need for resources and have no tools for doing it, therefore considering a need for metal and water is fair, but look at what goes into our own ‘primordial’ computers and imagine what they would need for their advanced technology.

So, again, beyond this we have some answers or demonstrations given to us by Ets themselves…who do we listen to?

7) - If they are indeed here, a case can be built that they - if they are harvesting, are doing that in on the other planets, the asteroid belt, Saturn's rings and moons, the Kuiper Belt etc., as some photos/recordings suggest;

They may also be harvesting around other asteroid belts but it doesn’t matter: they are here.
All the technology these numerous races display implies a high level of civilization out there, therefore the existence of rules, including rules against a violent takeover of another planet – ok, it’s an assumption, but who wouldn’t agree? Imagine if there weren’t such rules.

8) - If they wanted the planet for any of these reasons - they don't need this much time to do so, they would have done it by now, they are after all, capable of that; If your case is only taking over our society as a species, then again, if that's the whole point, well, they already have us by the balls (pard my language), assuming Summers' view is correct, and there are no benevolents/malevolents and they are all here with the same agenda. There would be no need to play duality, we are not that advanced technologically that we would be a challenge for them to be taken over, nor are we so evolved mentally and spiritually, to be a challenge for domination on those fields as well;

this is not a case where if they wanted us they could have taken over long ago. When a violent takeover is not permitted the only alternative is clandestine work in order to penetrate the fabric of another society: it takes time.

The Allies’ books don’t label any of them ‘good’ or ‘bad’, but make it clear that any race present here does not have our best interest at heart, therefore will damage our development. I find it logical to believe that a foreign race that travels and stays here to that extent is doing it for self serving purposes. It’s true that we are not that special, and that’s why all this movement in our skyes is not for the well being of our so-special race. All our dramas are in fact a great breach for anyone to enter, find allegiances, exacerbate some of the conflicts in favor of their allegiances and slowly take over.

..OnxyKnight, your following statement:

(OnyxKnight)
...Last I heard was that they are just trying to prevent any more negativity spawning from groups who want to get to Earth, there are some who try to restore certain natural habitats that are affected by human negative influence, and getting human abductees and babies who were never to be seen again to another world where they could grow unaffected by the crap this world offers. Especially the younger ones. They are doing us a great favor with this since they are breaking the tabula rasa cycle system that has been set in place here on Earth. ...

They are removing some of the regressive groups from Earth, if they sense there won't be any other negative consequences. ...

I know your interpretation of it is a positive one, but IMO it’s quite a suspicious avenue they are treading.
Do they really say that they are:
a) removing babies and young people from earth and giving them a better chance somewhere else? (or rescuing ones abducted by negative races?)
b) removing regressive groups of people from earth so that they don’t contaminate civilization?
Even if the intention was good, I say it’s undue interference with the development of a world.
But I believe it’s a very suspicious activity. The Allies’ books warn us against this…back to the issue on ‘need fro biological material’. They say Ets are taking humans because their bodies’ bio-materials are a resource they need.
This would also be an interesting insight for discussion in the Horus-Ra or abductions thread.
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So I may be right or wrong or whatever but this is my view and those were my questions, nothing offensive, just a discussion.
What I regret is that you label people as ones that 'had zero experience' and give them no right to question and discuss.
Nobody here is on so high a pedestal where they cannot be politely challenged.